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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
StephenB 553; Divine morality is NOT objective as it is a matter for believers only! No universal religion is universal in practice and we cannot have truly universal words defined on a narrow base, particularly not a word like objectivity.Elvis4708
January 20, 2013
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Are you sure it’s not Reason herself?
Yes. Else the world would consist of kittens and ducklings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6MYf6ZXY40Mung
January 20, 2013
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As for the mathematical intelligibility of nature, I've thought about this problem quite a lot, though I don't have a solution that completely satisfies me. (Though as my research progresses I believe I'm getting closer.) I think that the rational, and especially mathematical, intelligibility of nature has two different aspects, a natural aspect and a cultural aspect. Here I think that Dewey (on the natural side) and Adorno (on the cultural side) express the relevant insights. Dewey:
Only because an arbitrary breach has previously been introduced by which the world is first conceived as something quite different from what it demonstrably is, does it then appear passing strange that after all it should be just what it is. The world is subject-matter for knowledge, because mind has developed in that world; a body-mind, whose structures have developed according to the structures of the world in which it exists, will naturally find some of its structures to be concordant and congenial with nature, and some phases of nature with itself. … In ultimate analysis the mystery that mind should use a body, or that a body should have a mind, is like the mystery that a man cultivating plants should use the soil; or that the soil which grows plants at all should grow those adapted to its own physico-chemical properties and relations. (Experience and Nature, 211-2)
To Dewey's naturalism I would also add the insight of C. I. Lewis: nature appears to us as quantifiable because we choose to quantify it. and Adorno:
Carnap, one of the most radical positivists, once characterized as a stroke of good luck the fact that the laws of logic and mathematics apply to reality. A mode of thought, whose entire pathos lies in its claims to enlightenment, refers, at this central point to an irrational – mythical – concept, such as that stroke of good luck, simply in order to avoid an insight that the supposed lucky circumstance is not really one at all, but rather the product of the ideal of objectivity based on the domination of nature or, as Habermas puts it, the ‘pragmatistic’ ideal of objectivity. (Adorno, “Introduction” to The Positivist Dispute in German Sociology, p. 22).
So the "intelligibility of nature" is, on the one, something that we produce or construct through the historical, political, and economic practices of dominating nature -- and yet, at the same time, there must be something really there to be dominated, something which has the right kind of dynamics to interact with our own.Kantian Naturalist
January 20, 2013
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On top of Hoyle’s Monkeying with physics observations and related fine tuning results, such as the way the cosmos is set up to make the ingredients of C-chemistry, aqueous medium, protein based cellular life forms, that adds to the force of the plausibility of a worldview rooted in Reason himself.
Are you sure it's not Reason herself?Kantian Naturalist
January 20, 2013
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That statement ("is most intelligible in terms of realism") seems reasonable to me. Insofar as the nominalist rejects the possibility of noumenal knowledge (the object), he would naturally be inclined to emphasize the importance of the subject and de-emphasize the importance of the object, unlike the realist who would emphasize both subject and object.StephenB
January 20, 2013
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KN: Have you pondered the why of the almost unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in scientific endeavours, how often an obscure and seemingly dubious mathematical consequence is then found to be an accurate prediction? For instance, the attempted refutation of Young's wave-interference theory by suggesting the shadow of a small sphere would have a dot of light in its centre. Ridiculous! But, someone checked, and bingo, there it was. Math works by logical connexions, wherein if A holds, then B must also hold. We lock A to observed reality and we predict and test B. But there is an implication, that reality is logically coherent in ways that are often quantifiable. And that coherence then pops up in astonishing results like the Euler expression that brings together ever so many domains of Mathematics in one single result: 0 = 1 + e^i*pi. All of this is a further set of pointers that Mind lies behind cosmos, a highly logical and mathematical Mind. On top of Hoyle's Monkeying with physics observations and related fine tuning results, such as the way the cosmos is set up to make the ingredients of C-chemistry, aqueous medium, protein based cellular life forms, that adds to the force of the plausibility of a worldview rooted in Reason himself. KFkairosfocus
January 20, 2013
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I can see how that makes sense. I take it, then, that the objectivity of logic and mathematics is best explained in terms of (is most intelligible in terms of? is only intelligible in light of?) realism about logical principles and mathematical entities?Kantian Naturalist
January 19, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist
Suppose someone accepts nominalism about universals, rejects Platonism about numbers, etc. In your view, would that person be rationally entitled to believe that logic and mathematics are objective?
It seems to me that while the words “subjectivism” and “nominalism” cannot be used interchangeably, the two ideas are eminently compatible. Based on my personal experience of interacting with nominalists, I would guess that they are much more interested in what goes on inside the mind than outside of it, possibly because they think that the latter element is inaccessible. Accordingly, I suspect that most nominalists would say that the truths of logic are solely subjective (epistemological and psychological). As you know, I hold that logical principles also pertain to objective reality (ontological). In keeping with that same point, I suspect that most nominalists would say that mathematics is associated with subjective truths and limited to mental models of description, while I would argue that nature itself, apart from our mental models, is also mathematical, otherwise it could not be described mathematically.StephenB
January 19, 2013
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@Graham, all of the following: 'Groan. Quantum mechanics again. Yes, its counter-intuitive. Got that.' No, Graham. If you need your intuition to tell you that quantum mechanics is utterly weird, impenetrable to human logic, you are probably, quite technically, a cretin. No disgrace in that. We have to play the hand we're dealt. But a play-school would perhaps suit your needs better. 'And yes, great scientists can be religious, and wax eloquent, but it doesn't show in the applications of Science.' On the contrary. The roll-call of the most seminally innovative, epoch-making scientists consists almost entirely of theists, not to say Christians. And the greatest of them were what you would consider 'religious nuts' - including Galileo, by the way. Yours are almost entirely second-raters. 'Axel @95: You seem to be saying that Quantum mechanics is magic. Is this correct ? Perhaps you could rephrase it in plain English (without the spittle).' I'm sorry, Gray, I didn't realise English wasn't your first language. I wouldn't have responded to your post, had I realised. I expect you have someone nearby, perhaps a neighbour, who can translate this post for you. 'Perhaps you could rephrase it in plain English (without the spittle).' Nothing wrong with spittle, Gray. Good antispetic. Just the job for dirty, old keyboards.Axel
January 19, 2013
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StephenB, I have a question about your definitions of "objective" and "subjective" at your 552. Suppose someone accepts nominalism about universals, rejects Platonism about numbers, etc. In your view, would that person be rationally entitled to believe that logic and mathematics are objective?Kantian Naturalist
January 19, 2013
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Elvis4708
As you understand I, and many with me, do not accept divine moral[ity] as objective."
Divine morality is, by definition, objective with respect to humans. To argue that Divine authority is not binding or legitimate is one thing, but to say that it is not “objective” is illogical.
Of course I think your last paragraph is totally wrong.
Do you mean this one: “There are no examples of humans successfully banding together to establish a moral code from the bottom up.” I simply stated a fact. No group of humans has ever banded together to establish a moral code from the bottom up. If you think otherwise, all you have to do is provide a single example from any historical era.StephenB
January 19, 2013
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Elvis4708
We are just in the beginning of the democratic era. Monotheism is its largest obstacle.
You argued that there are examples of enduring pure democracies. I asked you to name just one example. My question persists.
I wrote “objectivity in the sense that all concerned agree upon its validity” which is the only way to define objectivity of moral codes since moral codes cannot be assessed by means of observation.
The only option is to use the consensus concept. Time is thus a crucial factor for this definition of objectivity since people change their minds over time.
I am afraid that you still do not understand the meanings of the words you are using. Please note of difference in meaning between "objective" and "subjective." OBJECTIVE --"not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion." --"intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings, as a person or a book." --"being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject." --"of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality." SUBJECTIVE "existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought" "pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation." Objective morality, therefore, is that code which exists independent of the individual and external to the mind. It belongs to the object of thought not to the thinking subject. An objective moral code, then, is not one that people arrive at by means pooling their subjective ideas into a consensus decision. It is rather a self-evident truth external to the mind that reasonable people are capable of apprehending and grasping. By contrast, a subjective moral code is just something that individuals make up for themselves as they go along. Rather than change his behavior to conform to the unchanging moral code, the subjectivist seeks to change moral code to fit his behavior, claiming that each person is his own moral authority and that he is answerable to no other.
As you understand I, and many with me, do not accept divine moral[ity] as objective." Divine morality is, by definition, objective with respect to humans. To argue that Divine authority is not binding or legitimate is one thing, but to say that it is not "objective" is illogical.
Of course I think your last paragraph is totally wrong.
Do you mean this one: "There are no examples of humans successfully banding together to establish a moral code from the bottom up." I simply stated a fact. No group of humans has ever banded together to establish a moral code from the bottom up. If you think otherwise, all you have to do is provide a single example from any historical era.
StephenB
January 19, 2013
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#550
I have words that can be used to describe your character, but I abstain from doing so.
I'm sure we can all thank you for your discretion. And you needn't worry, I won't embarras myself by changing around the letters in your moniker in order to defend my position. My apologies to WJM for disrupting on his thread.Upright BiPed
January 19, 2013
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PieBed 548; Says PieBed; "I used ‘cut and paste’ to copy your words, so I would be quite surprised that any of them had changed". What does this mean? Do you mean that I made amendments to my original text? Why don´t you ask for apology instead? Any reader can check my original text at Comment 287 above. I have words that can be used to describe your character, but I abstain from doing so.Elvis4708
January 19, 2013
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#547
Disregarding his arrogance, BiPed is wrong, completely wrong, as is verified by the citation I refer to.
The cite you quote merely reflects a belief that someday science may unravel the mystery of life's origin. It does nothing whatsoever to support your conclusions. Why you think otherwise is totally perplexing. As for arrogance, Merriam-Webster defines it in terms of "presumptuous claims or assumptions". Your use of that description on me is a little odd, given that your last revelation above has completely emptied your position of any merit, although you intent to hold to your conclusions anyway. In contrast, I am willing to put my position out there and argue for it on material grounds. Which one of us is presumptuous in this case? If you'd like I can offer my position in a single paragraph. You can then take the opportunity to demonstrate to be false:
In a material universe, it is not possible to transfer any form of recorded information into a material effect without using an arrangement of matter (or energy) as a medium. If that is true, then other material necessities must logically follow. Firstly, such a medium must operate to evoke a material effect within a system capable of producing that effect. Universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. Secondly, if a medium contains information as a consequence of its arrangement, then that arrangement must be materially arbitrary to the effect it evokes. Again, universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. And thirdly, if an arrangement of matter requires a system to produce an effect that it is materially arbitrary to, then that system must contain a second arrangement of matter to establish the otherwise non-existent relationship between the medium and its effect. Once again, universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. If each of these things are true, then in order to transfer any form of recorded information, the process fundamentally requires two arrangements of matter, each with a materially arbitrary quality, operating as an irreducible core within a system. And because Darwinian evolution requires the transfer and translation of information in order to exist itself, it cannot be the source of the system. Given these observations, a mechanism capable of establishing this semiotic state is necessary prior to the onset of information-based organization, as well as Darwinian evolution.
Upright BiPed
January 19, 2013
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Elvis,
In your first paragraph you quote me incorrectly. The citation of yours give the reader the impression that the model proposed by me is “best” in an absolute sense(no one can ever construe a better model).
I used 'cut and paste' to copy your words, so I would be quite surprised that any of them had changed. As to context, I am certain that the average reader "gets it" that we have competing models which we are debating over. I am also quite certain that the average reader "gets it" that each of us believes our own models are better supported than the others. I am merely pointing out that you argued for your model under the notion that science supports your conclusions, and I have challenged you on those grounds.
First, adding “except its existence” is adding a tautology
To say "evolution doesn't explain the existence of life" is not a tautology. To say "this apple pie is marvelous, who made it?" is not a tautology.
One central idea of ID is that organic matter never can come into existence from inorganic matter.
No, that is not a central idea of ID in biology. Biological design proponents are quite comfortable with the elements listed on the Periodic Table, and they rightly believe that everything in the Universe is formed from those elements. So let us make the distinction between the existence of hydrogen, carbon, and potassium and, say, the existence of an ATP synthase or a transmembrane escort protein for example. The latter are formed directly from the processing of recorded genetic information, and you'll quickly notice that information is not listed on the Periodic Table. ID is concerned with where the original information came from (making organic organization possible) and how that information came to be recorded in genetic material utilizing the same semiotic methods which would not appear again in the material record until billions of years after life first appeared on earth. You see, this is about matter, and making valid material observations, and not turning your back on those material observations based upon personal ideologis.
To support this statement...
I am not attempting to support your assesment of ID because, as pointed out, it is hopelessly incorrect.
To support this statement you present the following imprudence, of course in an impertinent form; “The great distinction between our positions is that I am not forced to ignore the evidence already documented by science”. “Not forced”?
It is true that you ignore the material evidence presented by ID, at least to the questionable extent that you even understand it. And "no", I am not forced in the slightest to ignore material evidence. If you believe otherwise, then you are certainly welcome to present material evidence relevant to ID's claims and make your case.
It seems as though you have neglected the scientific evidence altogether. Why not take a look at “The Emergence of Life on Earth” by Iris Fry. Allow me to quote; “Acknowledging the problems and difficulties that the origin-of-life field is facing, the common conviction is that science will eventually unravel the working of these processes”(p 5).
You have got to be kidding me. A person summarizes the difficulties in OOL research, then closes with the conviction that they'll figure it all out some day - and this is the scientific evidence I am avoiding?!?!
your statement that “the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent” stands out as another ID-hoax.
Really? What work (basic research, compiled reading, discussions with experts in relevant fields, ect) have you done to support this statement? Would it be fair to say that you've done nothing whatsoever?
Finally, from an analytical standpoint regarding the text you are referring to; I don´t care if the potential cause is an agent or an unknown mechanism.
If this is true, you've eviscerated your own position, leaving yourself with nothing to justify the very conclusions which you previously stated were the better explanation of earthly life. This is hardly a convincing turn of events. But given this last revelation, there seems to be scant reason to continue the discussion. Best of luck...Upright BiPed
January 19, 2013
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PeterJ 544; Upright BiPed says; "I am not forced to ignore the evidence already documented by science". Thus he means 1/ that I ignore science because I have to and 2/ that science supports him. Disregarding his arrogance, BiPed is wrong, completely wrong, as is verified by the citation I refer to.Elvis4708
January 19, 2013
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Alan Fox 537 I am not impressed by your idol!Elvis4708
January 19, 2013
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StephenB 536 1. We are just in the beginning of the democratic era. Monotheism is its largest obstacle. 2. I wrote “objectivity in the sense that all concerned agree upon its validity” which is the only way to define objectivity of moral codes since moral codes cannot be assessed by means of observation. The only option is to use the consensus concept. Time is thus a crucial factor for this definition of objectivity since people change their minds over time. As you understand I, and many with me, do not accept divine moral as objective. This moral is construed by a number of sages/politicians and their scribes some two thousand years ago. As I´ve said before; There are no objective moral codes, particularly not eternal moral codes. 3. Of course I think your last paragraph is totally wrong.Elvis4708
January 19, 2013
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Elvis, Please excuse me if I am missing something but can you expplain to how this: “Acknowledging the problems and difficulties that the origin-of-life field is facing, the common conviction is that science will eventually unravel the working of these processes”(p 5). Therefore leads to this: "So you are totally in the blue and your statement that “the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent” stands out as another ID-hoax" Cheers.PeterJ
January 19, 2013
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Upright BiPed 533; 1. In your first paragraph you quote me incorrectly. The citation of yours give the reader the impression that the model proposed by me is “best” in an absolute sense(no one can ever construe a better model). That is not the case. I just claim that my model is better than any theistic model, a claim that is far easier to demonstrate! This is how I wrote; “…research results within scientific fields such as genetics and quantum mechanics should lead any logical observer to the conclusion that a stochastic, dynamic evolution model explains earthly life MUCH BETTER THAN ANY (DETERMINISTIC, STATIC) RELIGIOUS MODEL OF DIVINE PROVIDENCE.” (Caps by me) 2. Paragraph 2; First, adding “except its existence” is adding a tautology since life presupposes existence! This is simple logic as can be confirmed by any eloquent reader. Existence arises prior to life no matter of physicochemically-arbitrary relationships or other mumbo jumbo. One central idea of ID is that organic matter never can come into existence from inorganic matter. To support this statement you present the following imprudence, of course in an impertinent form; “The great distinction between our positions is that I am not forced to ignore the evidence already documented by science”. "Not forced"? It seems as though you have neglected the scientific evidence altogether. Why not take a look at “The Emergence of Life on Earth” by Iris Fry. Allow me to quote; “Acknowledging the problems and difficulties that the origin-of-life field is facing, the common conviction is that science will eventually unravel the working of these processes”(p 5). So you are totally in the blue and your statement that “the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent” stands out as another ID-hoax. Finally, from an analytical standpoint regarding the text you are referring to; I don´t care if the potential cause is an agent or an unknown mechanism.Elvis4708
January 19, 2013
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Mung: At this stage, I hardly think AF is unaware that in inductive reasoning we establish reliable connexions on repeated observations of patterns. In this case, that functional, information expressed in material entities by codes, modulation of physical quantities, etc, once we have sufficient functional complexity, reliably traces to intelligence. I hardly think he is unaware that, in addressing the unobserved past that has left traces or clues, one can use such reliable connexions between sign and signified as circumstantial evidence, in light of the well known Newtonian approach that with such signs in play it is reasonable to infer that like causes like; on which we may identify a cluster of reasonable candidates and even winnow down to specific cause of a given sign. Indeed, we do not see him and his ilk outside courts, protesting that circumstantial evidence is inherently and inescapably suspect. Not at all. That is a big clue to what is going on when we see the sort of willful obtuseness we are increasingly being presented with on matters of inferring on naturally occurring signs when the normal pattern of reasoning would possibly point where ideological materialists do not want to go. Notice, his question: What agent? His objection, is patently that it is possible that the agent implied by design investigations may be God. The materialist anathema is brought into play, and logic or fair mindedness are tossed out the window. No evidence can be allowed to point in THAT direction, at any cost, on any convenient rhetoric. It matters not that circumstantial evidence can be highly reliable. It matters not that that twerdun is different from whodunit. It matters not that there simply are no serious cases of FSCI beyond 500 bits shown to have originated by blind chance and mechanical necessity, compared to billions all around us showing the power of intelligent contrivance. It matters not that science is supposed to be objective, open minded and truth-seeking in light of observed evidence. All that matters is that on the signs in this case, whether for OOL or OO body plans or on wider patterns OO the observed cosmos, there is a Shadow on the door step that MUST NOT BE ALLOWED INSIDE THE CLUBHOUSE. That determined, ideological, a priori commitment to materialism (and its fellow travellers) is what we are up against, and the rules of reasoning are rigged. The nature of science and its methods are rigged. The history of science is distorted into lies -- speaking with disregard to truth, hoping to profit from the false narrative being perceived as truth. In the end, such can only be exposed, and the call for reformation in light of identified intellectual and moral bankruptcy has to be made. Which again brings us full circle to underscoring the point in the original post. KFkairosfocus
January 19, 2013
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Upright BiPed:
...there are no known instances of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a material system that are not associated with an agent.
Alan Fox:
What agent?
Which instance?Mung
January 19, 2013
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As for your question, there are no known instances of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a material system that are not associated with an agent.
What agent?Alan Fox
January 19, 2013
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This includes observations which you were not familiar with and could not refute.
And yet after having confessed his lack of competence (or even interest), he feels qualified to comment on the exchanges you had with others. Go figure.Mung
January 18, 2013
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Alan, The notion that you feel compelled to introduce me is quite a compliment. However, the argument that fostered your opinion of me has nothing to do with my intellect - it has to do with material evidence. This includes observations which you were not familiar with and could not refute. As for your question, there are no known instances of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship instantiated in a material system that are not associated with an agent. This holds true from humans to bacteria. There are no counter-examples.Upright BiPed
January 18, 2013
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On the other hand, the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent.
What agent? What documented source? @ Elvis4708 Before crossing swords with the mighty Upright Biped, be warned! You are not the first to have encountered his massive intellect!Alan Fox
January 18, 2013
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Elvis 4708
If so we would not have stable democracies like those we have in the West.
Which country would you point to by name as an example of an enduring pure democracy?
Even if a set of moral codes are “objective” in the sense that all concerned agree upon its validity at some point in time it is not necessarily “objective” for all time.
You seem not to understand the meaning of the term "objective morality," which has nothing to do with time or what is agreed upon.
For example; bans on contraceptives, abortion and stem cell research emanate from the belief that each and every childbirth is the will of God and should therefore not be prevented, nor competed with. Two thousand years ago this view of childbirth caused no problems – of obvious reasons. Today it is far from an “objective” moral code.
Again, time has no bearing on the matter. If an act is objectively evil in 100 A.D. then it is also objectively evil in 2100 A.D. It is through the objective natural moral law that we can discern which acts are objectively evil and which ones are not. It has nothing to do with consensus decisions or uniformed popular opinions. I notice, for example, that you refer to "stem cell" research" without making the distinction between the use of adult stem cells, which is morally acceptable, and the use of embryonic stem cells, which is not. Again, I notice that you fail to distinguish between natural means for preventing births, which can be morally acceptable, and artificial means, which cannot. Yet again, you do not differentiate between abortion, which is the deliberate and cold-blooded act of killing of a fetus for the sake of killing a fetus as opposed to a life-saving medical procedure for the mother that accidentally kills the fetus. On the question of which kinds of acts "cause problems," we can always be assured that moral acts cause fewer long-term problems than immoral acts. That is one of the many differences between the two. In the meantime, I will return to the original point of the post. There are no examples of humans successfully banding together to establish a moral code from the bottom up. To be sure, an organization can apply consensus methods to decide on business strategy, but this happens only when its mission is understood and its ethical framework is already in place.StephenB
January 18, 2013
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KF: #524 Agreed, but again my point is to present the fact that information is contained in pre-Christ writings that have such mathematical (scientific) improbability in their fulfillment at a specific future time and place and specified goals and reasons that thus provide for and Prove a Rational to Theistic reasons for reality that are akin to all the cosmological and biological evidences, yet even greater than those because only an infinite mind, separate from space, material and time could provide such specified information prior to their taking place. - i.e. "you do well to pay attention" etc. Conversely, atheism has no such tools for establishing a rational ground for it, only - as in "theology" only philosophy grounded on personal preference for what ever reasons that preference came about.alan
January 18, 2013
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E:
...because these scientific fields have demonstrated the existence of genuine uncertainties...
From our inability to take measurements how does it follow that there is a real underlying uncertainty in the physical structure?Mung
January 18, 2013
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