Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

Categories
Atheism
Fine tuning
Philosophy
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably exists,  even if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
Elvis4709: Why are you now trying to characterize my asking you a few simple questions about your position as "chasing you"? You have not answered the question. You have proposed that religious morality be deposed (in fact, you work towards that end) and democratic morality be imposed. I've asked you why democratic morality should be imposed, and why I - or anyone - should accept that and submit to it. You refuse to answer. I think this is probably because you honestly don't understand the nature of the question, and that it probably produces a cognitive dissonance when you consider it because in order to answer the question, you must reflect upon what is an unconscious, hidden assumption on your part. That assumption - that democracy is the proper tool when it comes to determining moral questions about what is good - has not been properly examined by you in your philosophy. I believe it must be nothing other than an assumption based upon the emotional appeal of the term "democratic" because you can offer no argument for it nor answer simple questions about it. You just expect other people to fall under the emotional appeal of the term and recognize its validity in determining "shoulds". So, when one asks you, "Why democracy?", you can offer no explanation, only reiteration and rhetoric - rhetoric that describes democracy as "modern" and "enlightened", reiteration that says we "must" and we "should", as if that explained why democracy should be our moral guide. These rhetorical, emotional appeals to appealing associations and terminology is nothing but smoke and mirrors hiding an apparently unexamined foundation. You also refuse to meaningfully respond to KF's critique, which informs the following: If the majority votes and decides that all atheists should be executed, then you would be fine with that, and such a law would - in your mind - be moral, thus executing atheists would be a good thing? In other words, you're saying that "what is good" is decided by consensus, and if the consensus is that owning slaves is okay, and that treating women, children and minorities as property is okay, and that euthanizing undesirable is okay, then by definition (majority, consensus = moral) those things are good. That is the consequence of morality by majority, as has been played out over and over in human history. Furthermore, if we assume morality has no teeth other than what is established as law, and laws are created, changed or removed via democratic process in the USA, what is it that you're trying to accomplish by demolishing religious morality? You already have "morality by consensus" when it comes to the law (through democratic representation); do you wish to remove the individual right to believe in whatever legally non-binding moral rules they wish? IOW, if I believe it is morally wrong for the state to criminalize personal use drugs, should I not be able to advocated against those laws just because the majority considers them moral? Or, if the majority holds that religious morality is the proper morality for guiding one's personal life, should you be allowed to advocate against that? I am not "chasing" anything, Elvis. What KF and I are attempting to point out to you (or, more likely, less emotionally entrenched observers) is the socially dangerous, self-contradictory, hypocritical and unexamined nature of the moral philosophy you advocate, that would embrace torturing infants for personal pleasure if that was the consensus. You claim that an "educated" society will never vote in religious morality. Educated how? By whom? Under what guiding moral principle? Your response begs the question of who is doing the educating; how they are doing it, for what end, and according to what standard of curriculum and academic philosophy. However, I'm sure all of this is beyond your capacity to apprehend, since you cannot even answer the simple questions I have put before you, nor adequately frame a response to KF's challenges. Note how you respond to KFs exhaustive and devastating critique:
Democracy is not perfect but presently the best we kan do.
Which is nothing but a reiteration. Best ... by what measure? You have offered no argument or rational support for this claim whatsoever. Democracy is an appealing word. However, it is not the answer to everything. As morality, it is nothing but the tyranny of the masses. However, I doubt you actually wish to live under the tyranny of the majority with no unalienable, individual rights or freedoms whatsoever, which is the logical conclusion of your "morality by majority" system.William J Murray
January 16, 2013
January
01
Jan
16
16
2013
03:59 AM
3
03
59
AM
PDT
kairosfocus; No matter what you think of me, I like to read your essays and I´m impressed by your uncompromising conviction. I will read your last essay more carefully and come back to you if I find anything not already discussed.Elvis4708
January 16, 2013
January
01
Jan
16
16
2013
03:11 AM
3
03
11
AM
PDT
Elvis: Pardon, but you seem to have forgotten that you threw the first punch. "He hit back first" -- the moral equivalency tactic you just resorted to -- is not good enough. Especially, when the focus of of my reply is to point you back to the issues you have left unanswered in your haste to create a cloud of polarisation behind which to escape. In addition, you have failed to observe the significance of my pointing to the way that Locke in his second treatise on Civil Govt, c 1690, set about laying the basis for what would become modern liberty and democracy: by appealing to "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard] Hooker" in his discussion of the way that the Judaeo-Christian Golden Rule, grounded in our having been equally made in Go's image and endowed by him with value, worth and rights, leads to the premise of mutual benevolence and fairness in the community. Thus grounding a civil order that addresses that. Your consistent failure to address substance, while trying to polarise the atmosphere, speaks volumes, and none of it to your good. In your onward talking points to WJM, you reveal an adherence to the religious theocracy slur, which again speaks further volumes that further underscore the point. For record, let me again cite the pivotal point in the 2nd essay by Locke, Ch 2 sect 5:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
That is what theism at full bore from historically pivotal documents, has to say on the grounding of modern liberty and democracy in theistic, Judaeo-Christian soil. With an anchorage in man being understood as made in the image of God. All you have done in reply is to appeal to anti-religious bigotry and hostility (all, duly reinforced by one-sided litanies of the real and imagined sins of Christendom that fails to address the real problems of power: power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely -- spoken by a Christian historian BTW; and reflecting the deeper problem that we are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill willed or even closed minded and hostile . . . ), conflating quite distinct systems of thought and traditions, which any reasonably informed person will realise will differ considerably. E.g. consider Jesus' teaching that one should give to Caesar what is his, and to God what is his, which holds in a context where Caesar is viewed as God's servant to do us good by upholding and defending the civil peace of justice -- which BTW historically raised the issue of one who turns tyrant by usurpation, corruption, seizure or invasion and the right of the people under God to choose lower magistrates or representatives to stand up to such in their name. Thus was grounded the right of reformation and in the last resort revolution that is to be found in the US DOI of 1776, 2nd paragraph. As in the reformation's classic double covenant view of nationhood and government under God. And that does not even begin to touch on the challenge of the IS-OUGHT gap and the implication that the only place where a grounding IS that can objectively and soundly support OUGHT comes into a worldview is its foundations. Wherein, the only serious candidate is the inherently good God our Creator, who has endowed us with dignity and rights. Absent that, it is a seriously arguable point that we end up in the morass of one species or another of might and manipulation make 'right.' It is in that context that I have to take very seriously your consistent ducking and diversion from the problem of democracy potentially coming down to three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch. That is, there is a serious problem of democracy without an adequate foundation of rights and liberty, justice and fairness, becoming mob rule. Which BTW, was a serious concern of the founders of modern democracy. That is the context for the sort of provisions for God as guardian of the individual and his or her rights that we see for instance reflected in that same 2nd para of the US DOI. We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights . . . And there is a lot more relevant history, key documents and related issues that you don't seem to be privy to. I suggest you try reading here on in context as a 101 - level beginning. I think that may help break the case-structure and talking point subroutines you seem to have been programmed with, the first phase of deprogramming. And, you better believe that this is what you are coming across as a case of to someone with a fair degree of experience on that subject, with marxists and with manipulative sects alike. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2013
January
01
Jan
16
16
2013
01:55 AM
1
01
55
AM
PDT
cairosfocus; 1. Have you thought about your own tone? 2. Democracy is not perfect but presently the best we kan do. Murray; 1. Honestly, I don´t understand why you are chasing me with your question. Shouldn´t my writings already delivered be enough? 2. If a majority of citizens REALLY wants to be ruled by gods(priest/imams/rabbis) - so be it. This will never happen in an educated society.Elvis4708
January 16, 2013
January
01
Jan
16
16
2013
12:40 AM
12
12
40
AM
PDT
Kantian Naturalist
Our knowledge of the past, for it to count as knowledge to us, must conform to our epistemic and semantic norms. (I trust that it’s clear why that’s vacuously true.)
A semantic norm,” which is a mere social construct, cannot serve as the basis for rational thought. Whatever is socially constructed on Monday can be socially deconstructed on Tuesday and socially reconstructed on Wednesday. The Laws of Identity and Non-Contradiction are not like that. Both preceded the advent of language and are not, therefore dependent on it. Our norms do not inform reason’s rules; reason’s rules inform our norms. They were not invented, they were discovered. That is why I can say with apodictic certainty that Jupiter cannot now, never could, or never will exist and not exist at the same time. Because you reject reason's rules, you are forced to equivocate on the matter. With your formulation, which is a time-sensitive social construct, Jupiter became subject to the “principle” of Non-Contradiction only when social norms declared it to be so.
I’m saying that objects do not constitute the real-in-itself. (Better: I’m intrigued by that possibility and I’m exploring it here, by seeing how that possibility fares in reasoned dialogue with someone who disagrees with it.)
I am not clear on why you think that the planet Jupiter is not real.
So my suggestion is that while we should reject Kantian transcendental idealism (and Putnam’s internal realism), and affirm that our cognitive experience does make contact with things-in-themselves, what the things are, what properties they have, and so on is influenced (but not, of course, determined) by the perceptual and conceptual capacities that the organism brings to the table.
Jupiter’s real nature, its real properties, and its real location with respect to other planets in the solar system are not even remotely influenced by anyone’s conceptual capacities.
The question then becomes, what must the things-in-themselves be, in order to be both indeterminate and determinable? And my answer is: processes. Processes ‘become’ objects by virtue how they are perceived and interpreted by organisms, in accord with the vital needs and interests of the organism.
Jupiter did not come into existence as a response to human needs and interests. In keeping with that same point, its reality is not a function of anyone’s conceptual framework. In order to understand why your formulation doesn’t work, you need only take the first step required for any rational interaction: Define your terms (“process” and “thing”) and you will readily understand why one cannot “become” the other. While you are at it, do the same thing with the words “indeterminate” and “determinable.”StephenB
January 15, 2013
January
01
Jan
15
15
2013
11:54 AM
11
11
54
AM
PDT
Reminds me of Alan Fox: "Freedom of expression is everything." "Except in the science class," I replied.Mung
January 15, 2013
January
01
Jan
15
15
2013
10:42 AM
10
10
42
AM
PDT
F/N 2: Others may wonder if there may be a justification for standing in a specific monotheistic tradition. If so, I point them here on in context. The pivotal issue is, as always, what is true and what is therefore right. KFkairosfocus
January 15, 2013
January
01
Jan
15
15
2013
10:16 AM
10
10
16
AM
PDT
F/N: E, I just had a moment to pause, and considered whether I should spend the time to make a more extensive point by point reply. The hostility in your tone and the sort of stereotyping, broad-brush dismissiveness, militate against that. What you come across as, is reacting to try to shut up those who have pointed out the key gaps in your thought. Plainly, you have no grounds for answering to the issue of three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch, which exposes the fatal flaw in the "tyranny of the 51%" cultural relativism. Just remember, slaves were a MINORITY in the USA, and the issue was to recognise their dignity. As for your rat is a pig is a dog is a boy point, all I will say is that -- when the talking point game is over -- where it has been tried it ended in undermining the boy [as in see what is happening with the 55 millions dead of abortions since 1973 . . . ], and making him into a target for the more powerful to prey on. You seem to have a hostility to the idea of a real, inherently good, Creator God who has created us as creatures in his image capable of loving and so of responsible choice. It seems as well that you do not want to face the implications of the point that it is self evident that it is wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a young child for pleasure and profit through making a snuff video and have tried to put up a cloud of polarising talking points to make an escape behind. That speaks volumes about what you advocate and none of it good.kairosfocus
January 15, 2013
January
01
Jan
15
15
2013
10:09 AM
10
10
09
AM
PDT
Elvis4708: Apparently, you are unwilling or unable to answer my question "Why should I submit to democratic morality" with anything other than simply offering more assertions that I must, or that I should. Why should I care what is "acceptable" to a democratic society? Why should i care what a "modern" society needs? Why should I submit to democratic laws? Saying I should submit to democratic morals because other moral systems are not democratic, and because your proposal is ... well .. democratic ... is self-referential nonsense. Why should I care about democratic principles whatsoever, regardless of if we are talking about laws, morals, or anything else? Also, if the majority of a population wishes for morality to be parsed via religion, what democratic value (which you are promulgating here) gives you the authority to put an end to the religion-base morality that the majority of people prefer?William J Murray
January 15, 2013
January
01
Jan
15
15
2013
07:20 AM
7
07
20
AM
PDT
Elvis: Kindly pause and look at the tone you just used. Ask yourself, whether this exemplifies tolerance or strident dismissiveness. Please note, for now, that once one addresses things that claim something to be a real state of affairs, one is automatically excluding alternatives as not being so: 2 + 3 = 5 excludes an infinite number of alternative answers, but that is not viewed as being intolerant. I find that, too often, the "tolerance" talking point is usually only rhetorically useful to polarise and stigmatise views that stress the importance of truth and right beyond mere opinion and majority views -- three wolves and two sheep voting on what's for lunch, not to seriously discuss and compare worldviews. As to Christians unjustifiably claiming the Golden Rule, I think a fairer reading would be that Jesus and Paul -- who stated the forms of the GR found in the NT -- both cited and implicitly acknowledged Moshe, the founder of Judaism as we know it. When I saw the discussion in C S Lewis' Mere Christianity, his emphasis was that this was a universal principle of benevolence, and when I looked at how Locke sought to ground liberty and justice in civil society, he did so by citing Hooker, an Anglican theologian, who argued thusly:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
It seems, then that you need to ask rather, what is it that gives my fellow human beings a fundamental equality and moral worth that requires me to treat them as I would wish to be treated. The Judaeo-Christian, theistic answer, is that they are made just as I am in the image of God and are endowed by our common Creator with unalienable rights. On non-theistic (including non Deistic . . . cf. the author I just alluded to) grounds -- especially those of evolutionary materialist scientism, kindly justify such rights and principles of mutual benevolence. KFkairosfocus
January 15, 2013
January
01
Jan
15
15
2013
07:17 AM
7
07
17
AM
PDT
Murray 481, kairosfocus 482, JWTruthInLove 484; Monotheism is basically intolerant. Monotheists think their god is the only one and that they have the moral, divine given, right to fight other believers. This is absolutely unacceptable in all democratic societies. In principle, moral codes must have their roots among ordinary people, not among a couple of selfappointed interpreters of the divine will. The injunction to kill one´s own son to demonstrate belief in Yahweh is NOT such a code. Nor is the Vatican´s and many (US) churches´view that the conception is God´s will and therefore always must be protected. Euthanasia is of course a sin. Society is changing and new morality issues arise in an eternal process. Today, for example, we are talking about global overpopulation, scarcity of important resources, environmental destruction and wild animal extermination. According to the Bible man is the master of all animals and all plants and is free to do what he wishes with them. What kind of moral is that? A modern society needs a moral code system that develops over time and monotheism, with its once-and-for-all given codes, cannot provide it. It is best achieved by profane education, the free word and democracy. Lawmaking in a democratically elected parliament is the center of the moral code genereting process. Christianity propagates "the Golden Rule" as were it an own invention - which is not true. The rule has been taken, word by word, from a man-made(!)chinese philosophy named "legalism". Probably it was imported to Palestine once the Silk Road had been firmly established.Elvis4708
January 15, 2013
January
01
Jan
15
15
2013
06:39 AM
6
06
39
AM
PDT
In re: StephenB @ 491:
If, as you argue, the “principle” of Non-Contradiction was semantically “constituted,” then it did not exist prior to the advent of language. Under the circumstances, there would have been a time when Jupiter was not subject to the law—a time when it could have existed and not existed at the same time. Is that your position?
Epistemologically and semantically, it makes no sense for us to assert, "prior to the evolution of linguistic norms, things in themselves did not conform to those norms". For it still us, with the linguistic norms that we do in fact have, who would making such an assertion. Our knowledge of the past, for it to count as knowledge to us, must conform to our epistemic and semantic norms. (I trust that it's clear why that's vacuously true.)
If, as you acknowledge, Jupiter is subject to the Law of Identity, it is hard to understand why you would also argue that “reality” is not subject to that same law. Are you saying that Jupiter is not part of reality? Or, are you saying that some aspects of reality are subject to reason’s rules while others are not? By what rational standard do you make that determination?
I'm saying that objects do not constitute the real-in-itself. (Better: I'm intrigued by that possibility and I'm exploring it here, by seeing how that possibility fares in reasoned dialogue with someone who disagrees with it.) As to my argument for this view: first, it can be established by transcendental reflection that if we did not actually have cognitive access to things in themselves with at least some minimally detectable order and regularity, we could not have the kinds of self-conscious thoughts that we do in fact have. But what is the nature of those things? A bit of attention to the diversity of animal perceptual and conceptual systems indicates that what kinds of objects are disclosed in experience depends strongly on what an animal is able to notice, what kinds of stimuli it is able to detect, and so on. Likewise, the diversity of human conceptual systems strongly suggests that there is no one single right way to describe the sorts of objects that there are. So my suggestion is that while we should reject Kantian transcendental idealism (and Putnam's internal realism), and affirm that our cognitive experience does make contact with things-in-themselves, what the things are, what properties they have, and so on is influenced (but not, of course, determined) by the perceptual and conceptual capacities that the organism brings to the table. The question then becomes, what must the things-in-themselves be, in order to be both indeterminate and determinable? And my answer is: processes. Processes 'become' objects by virtue how they are perceived and interpreted by organisms, in accord with the vital needs and interests of the organism. Each kind of organism has its own 'world' -- and yet there is only one world. (As Gilbert Harman once said, "I'd like to make a distinction here, but I can't think of one.")Kantian Naturalist
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
07:10 PM
7
07
10
PM
PDT
Kantian Naturalist
“Jupiter” is a term in the vocabulary of objects.---where the PNC is a constitutive rule of discourse about objects. So long as we’re talking about objects, the PNC applies.
If, as you argue, the “principle” of Non-Contradiction was semantically “constituted,” then it did not exist prior to the advent of language. Under the circumstances, there would have been a time when Jupiter was not subject to the law—a time when it could have existed and not existed at the same time. Is that your position? If, as you acknowledge, Jupiter is subject to the Law of Identity, it is hard to understand why you would also argue that “reality” is not subject to that same law. Are you saying that Jupiter is not part of reality? Or, are you saying that some aspects of reality are subject to reason’s rules while others are not? By what rational standard do you make that determination?StephenB
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
06:36 PM
6
06
36
PM
PDT
Here's how to do a shorter link to amazon products: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0870743910 "After a rather tortuous and turgid discussion..." Sounds like it's right up my alley! NOT. :)Mung
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
01:39 PM
1
01
39
PM
PDT
Off-topic: I just had brought to my attention: The Divine Good: Modern Moral Theory and the Necessity of God by Frank Gamwell. Gamwell seems to argue that any conception of goodness-in-community must be grounded in the nature of God -- hence I'm bringing it to your attention.Kantian Naturalist
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
01:18 PM
1
01
18
PM
PDT
Jupiter is an object.
But what is an object?
2. a thing, person, or matter to which thought or action is directed
Mung
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
12:19 PM
12
12
19
PM
PDT
I'm not sure that atheism is even coherent, much less rationally justifiable.Mung
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
12:15 PM
12
12
15
PM
PDT
when I asked you earlier if Jupiter can exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way, you agreed that this cannot be the case, presumably because reality DOES conform to those laws. Can you explain this apparent inconsistency?
On my view, Jupiter conforms to the principle of non-contradiction because it is an object. I treat as necessarily equivalent: Jupiter is an object. and "Jupiter" is a term in the vocabulary of objects. where the PNC is a constitutive rule of discourse about objects. So long as we're talking about objects, the PNC applies. (Conversely, the reason why Buddhist logic rejects the PNC is because Buddhist metaphysics rejects objects.) The reason why I think my overall position is consistent is because I think of reality as consisting of determinable processes rather than of determinate objects. I call this position "weak metaphysical realism," in contrast with Hilary Putnam's contrast between "metaphysical realism" (everything is fully determinate, and we just have to find the right 'map' or 'framework' that fits it) and "internal realism" (things are determinate only with regards to some conceptual map or framework). I agree with Putnam that determinacy is relative to a conceptual framework, but unlike Putnam, I think that we really are in touch with reality-in-itself which is indeterminate but determinable. [NB: here I am using "determinate" to mean "having clearly specifiable spatio-temporal location and describable properties".]Kantian Naturalist
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
12:10 PM
12
12
10
PM
PDT
Kantian Naturalist:
In re: StephenB 464, since I already answered that exact question earlier, I leave it to you to ask me further questions based on my previous response.
On the one hand, you say (@455) that reality does NOT necessarily conform to reason's rules (Law of Identity, Causality, Excluded Middle, Non-Contradiction etc). By that standard, the status of Jupiter's existence would not be subject to those rules (laws). You have advanced this position on many occasions. On the other hand, when I asked you earlier if Jupiter can exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way, you agreed that this cannot be the case, presumably because reality DOES conform to those laws. Can you explain this apparent inconsistency?StephenB
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
11:17 AM
11
11
17
AM
PDT
@Elvis4708: Can you provide a working example of a society which votes on moral principles?JWTruthInLove
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
11:13 AM
11
11
13
AM
PDT
Now if we could just talk them into believing they are not really hungry...Mung
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
10:26 AM
10
10
26
AM
PDT
WJM & E: Three wolves and two sheep are voting on what's for lunch . . . maybe, that will help settle context in light of oppressed, abused or enslaved minorities. Which, as I noted, can include a minority of "1%" of golden egg-laying geese. KFkairosfocus
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
09:28 AM
9
09
28
AM
PDT
Elvis4708: Why would not understanding the relevance prevent you from answering a simple question? You said you are pursuing the end of religion-based morality and advocating a democracy-based "voting" system of what is considered moral. Okay, fine. Other people advocate religion-based morality. Still other people advocate secular humanism as the moral system we should adhere to. Some people advocate hedonism. Obviously, you are not submitting to religion-based morality, which is largely the norm, and are advocating that people submit to (obey) democracy based morality instead. I'm asking you: why should I - or anyone - submit to democracy based morality, and not religion-based morality (or any other basis for morality). Why "democracy" based in particular?William J Murray
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
09:11 AM
9
09
11
AM
PDT
Murray, 459; Why you should submit...? I don´t understand the relevance of this question. What are you after?Elvis4708
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
08:08 AM
8
08
08
AM
PDT
LT: An even more pivotal text in Daniel is 7:9 - 14, which seems to have featured at Jesus' hearing before Sanhedrin members, and in the death of Stephen in Ac 7. Just a note, this is not the place for a debate on Bible Study or exegesis. I do recommend to interested parties, The Word software with relevant support modules. On recent translations I have gravitated to the ESV and NET, as they are open source, no limits on citation. The collection of texts at Bible Gateway is good (love the AMP] and Blue Letter Bible is also good. Some may find my incomplete draft course for sampler purposes, here on, helpful. Note U1 on foundations, U2 on worldview issues, and U11 on matters relevant to eschatology. There is also a resources page. KFkairosfocus
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
07:59 AM
7
07
59
AM
PDT
Well Elvis, that's the beauty of science! Instead of proclaiming that Theism is the way it is, I actually provided evidence that Deism is grossly insufficient to account for the massive levels of integrated information we find in life, where you, well you merely asserted that you have faith in doubting Theism and dismissed the evidence as if it did not matter. Religion driving science once again! Who'd a thunk! Go figure!bornagain77
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
Alan, I've started to examine Daniel, per your question here in #334, over at my blog, http://skepticink.com/atheistintermarried/2013/01/14/looking-at-biblical-prophecy-daniel-920-27. Your comments are welcome, as are those of anyone interested.LarTanner
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
07:38 AM
7
07
38
AM
PDT
bornagain77, comments 363, 364 It´s a very comprehensive – and esoteric – reasoning you open up to with your comments. I think I´ve got your points but I´m very skeptical of the way you and your ID-friends stretch and twist scientific results. “Front loading” for example; in my opinion you cannot dismiss a deistic creator just because preprogramming of evolution with deterministic results is not possible. Another conclusion is that there is/was a deistic creator but a very weak one because it had not full control of its own acts. And using a stochastic creation-program as “proof” of divine providence seems to me hopelessly far-fetched. I think that a general problem with you theists is that you can in no way accept genuine uncertainties in your worldview. Uncertainties, risks, chance, probabilities etc are always in one way or the other interpreted as acts by God. It is easy to understand why you are so rigid, in fact locked up, at this point. The acceptance of genuine uncertainty competing with God is simply no option in monotheistic theology. Genuine uncertainty is a rivaling god!Elvis4708
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
07:24 AM
7
07
24
AM
PDT
Of somewhat related note: In this following video, Dr. Richards and Dr. Gonzalez reveal that the universe is ‘suspiciously set up’ for scientific discovery: Privileged Planet – Observability/Measurably Correlation – Gonzalez and Richards – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5424431 The very conditions that make Earth hospitable to intelligent life also make it well suited to viewing and analyzing the universe as a whole. - Jay Richards Extreme Fine Tuning of Light, and Atmosphere, for Life and Scientific Discovery - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/7715887/ Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water - graphs http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQ Michael Denton: Remarkable Coincidences in Photosynthesis - podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2012/09/michael_denton_remarkable_coin.html This following videos are in the same line of thought as the preceding videos: We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History – Hugh Ross – video http://vimeo.com/31940671 Hugh Ross - The Anthropic Principle and Anthropic Inequality - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8494065bornagain77
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
06:15 AM
6
06
15
AM
PDT
KN, all of your incoherent nonsense aside, I have a very specific 'scientific' problem for you, using any naturalistic metaphysics that you want as a starting presupposition, please coherently explain, using empirical evidence, quantum mechanics and general relativity, the centrality we witness for ourselves within the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR): Planck satellite unveils the Universe -- now and then (w/ Video showing the mapping of the 'sphere' of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation with the satellite) - 2010 http://phys.org/news197534140.html#nRlv Picture of CMBR https://webspace.utexas.edu/reyesr/SolarSystem/cmbr.jpg The Known Universe by AMNH – video - (please note the 'centrality' of the Earth in the universe in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/editbornagain77
January 14, 2013
January
01
Jan
14
14
2013
06:14 AM
6
06
14
AM
PDT
1 … 5 6 7 8 9 … 23