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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
Elvis,
As to your 322-comment I think there is a misunderstanding.
From my perspective I’m sorry to say that I don’t see it as a misunderstanding at all – I see it as an equivocation. You came to UD to attack beliefs you see as untenable, and have gone to great lengths to wrap your conclusions in the flag of “intellectual honesty” (with its concurrent implications for those who do not believe as you do). You stated that science “should lead any logical observer to the conclusion that a stochastic, dynamic evolution model explains earthly life”. Now, having been challenged to substantiate that claim (and perhaps realizing that you cannot meet that challenge), you wish to equivocate and narrow your claim from the notion that evolution “explains earthly life”, to the notion that evolution explains everything about life – except its existence. This is a familiar refrain around here, and ID proponents would likely be rich if they had a dime for each time this tactic had been employed (going back to Darwin, who himself used it). What you gain from this maneuver is the ability couch your beliefs in evolution’s explanatory powers behind the assumption of an unknown mechanism for life’s origin. You assume your conclusion by taking the stance that we don’t have sufficient evidence for a cause of life’s origin already in hand. Even more egregious, in making this assumption you are obliged to ignore the material evidence we already have, and thereby force an irrational dilemma which may only be resolved by observing the rise of life from non-life (again) and having access to its cause. The great distinction between our positions is that I am not forced to ignore the evidence already documented by science. Moreover, from the standpoint of valid material evidence, your separation of evolution from origins is decimated by the fact that the very thing which allows evolution to exist, is also the exact same thing required at the origin of life. You cannot separate them because you cannot explain the former without the latter. However, your attempt to separate them can certainly put the test to your claim of “intellectual honesty”.
The text of mine you are quoting is about divine providence vs stochastic evolution of human life, not creation.
Darwinian evolution and creation both require a material condition where physicochemically-arbitrary relationships are instantiated in a material system. Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of those material conditions because it requires them to exist. (To say otherwise, is to say that the process of Darwinian evolution, which does not yet exist on a prebiotic earth, can cause something to happen – which is obviously false). On the other hand, the only documented source of a physicochemically-arbitrary relationship within material system is an agent. Are you suggesting by the separation (of life’s evolution from life’s origin) that a belief in agency involvement as a potential cause of life’s origin (given the documented material facts already in hand) has as much or more explanatory power than the mere belief in an unknown mechanism?Upright BiPed
January 18, 2013
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E: Democracies do fail, and can fail by the three wolves and two sheep vote on what is for lunch route . . . the break down of utilitarianism. Absent a basis for values, democratic government is itself in danger. In that context the issue of objective grounding of key values and virtues, habits and dispositions is pivotal, and cannot be properly ducked. KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2013
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E; OOL is the root of the tree of life, and is as much a matter to be answered to as OO body plans. I know it is rhetorically convenient to pretend that school and college textbooks make a hard and fast distinction and never address OOL in addressing evolution, but that is not true. Similarly, the whole point of the TOL model is that inter alia it points to its root. From a different view, seeing that the best explanation for moving from a warm little pond or the like to a living cell with metabolic and self replication using code, is credibly design, transforms how the rest of the world of life is looked at. So, the question of origin of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, is highly relevant to both. KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2013
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StephenB; 1. It is true that democracies have failed from time to time. A well functioning democracy does not come easy! But I cannot accept your description of democracies turning tyrannies as a general model. If so we would not have stable democracies like those we have in the West. An issue to discuss, though, is what intrinsic characteristics of a civilization are necessary to make that civilization democratic. 2. Even if a set of moral codes are "objective" in the sense that all concerned agree upon its validity at some point in time it is not necessarily "objective" for all time. For example; bans on contraceptives, abortion and stem cell research emanate from the belief that each and every childbirth is the will of God and should therefore not be prevented, nor competed with. Two thousand years ago this view of childbirth caused no problems – of obvious reasons. Today it is far from an "objective" moral code.Elvis4708
January 18, 2013
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kairosfocus; I don´t know why some people find my text so hard to understand! It has nothing with creation to do and it sees evolution as a part of life, not as its instigator! Given this, given the already existing universe, nature and its life, how can human life best be described? The central issue for you ID-people and for wholehearted atheists, like Dawkins, is whether evolution can explain "everything" or not. But, as should be clear from my text, I do not address that issue - here.Elvis4708
January 18, 2013
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E: What proportion of the space of possible configurations of a string of 500 bits, can the 10^57 atoms of a certain solar system, being there for the lifespan of the observed cosmos to date, at 10^-14 s per chemical level interaction, sample? (cf. here on in context.) What does this suggest in a context where a smallest genome credibly has 100 k to 1 M bits of information? What does this further suggest when body plans for complex organisms credibly begin at 10 mn - 100 mn bits? Indeed, what does it suggest about the likelihood of the origin of a text string of 72 ASCII characters by random typing in such a solar system converted into ultra-fast-typing monkeys, typewriters, desks, paper, banana plantations, etc? In this light, why are you willing to suggest chance combined with differential reproductive success -- which itself requires a further complex subsystem joined to the already complex metabolic systems -- as a plausible explanation for OOL and/or of body plans? And if so, are you willing to take up the UD Darwinism 6,000 word essay challenge, now approaching 4 months unanswered? Do you see the relevance of these issues to the main issue in the OP, in light of this concern [cf context, regarding Lewontin, NAS, NSTA etc]? KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2013
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Upright BiPed; I´m sorry. I neglected you by pure mistake. There are many critics to keep track of... As to your 322-comment I think there is a misunderstanding. The text of mine you are quoting is about divine providence vs stochastic evolution of human life, not creation. I refer to genetics and quantum mechanics because these scientific fields have demonstrated the existence of genuine uncertainties that, together with natural selection, support a stochastic evolutionary model of human life.Elvis4708
January 18, 2013
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KN: I must also add, that, in an age where we tend to scant history and where classical studies -- and here that should I guess include a good slice of theology and Bible, the last remaining, largely dying part -- has all but vanished as a province of the academy, we severely underestimate the influence of these factors in the thought that shaped the era of the reformation and the rise of the American Republic, then its spreading and modifications that led to the rise of modern democracies. As I recall, the single most cited source among the leadership strata of the American experiment, was Deuteronomy, in effect the constitution of the commonwealth of Israel, which in context sees a monarchy as a distinct second best (the denunciation in 1 Sam 8 is amazing). Similarly, I find a lot of echoes of classical issues in Greece and Rome, and not just in architecture. These were practically minded men deeply aware of human finitude, fallibility, fallenness, struggle and ill will, who distrusted speculative academic thinking in abstract isolation, and relied on the weight of the evidence of the past, as distilled through careful reflection on its significance and potentials. They also respected balanced compromises, recognising that though the Dutch antecedent was flawed, it held forth some promise. Likewise, they were working against the backdrop of a manifestly failing earlier attempt, and saw the need for a stronger centre and a better balance with the states that had emerged from the revolution, i.e. the Articles of Confederation are also significant, as are the state constitutions and the differential successes and failures across the time to 1787. The press of the Dissenters that led to the reluctant enfolding of the first ten amendments, is a similar compromise, which time has shown the wisdom of. Of course the compromises on slavery led to bloodshed eighty years later when further generations refused to rebalance in good time to reflect the developing situation. And of course the overall framing of the Constitution itself pivots on the great compromise that saved the Convention. Notice, in this regard, the observation of Franklin on how much of a compromise and what we could do, that the whole work was. Indeed, I even find reason to suspect that there was a rooting of even the DOI of 1776 in the Dutch one of 1581, as echoed in structure, themes, and more. (There is even a hint in words of a member of the drafting committee.) While Spinoza et al did contribute to the general atmosphere, it seems to me that a fairer balance is that these men were viewed as having fatal flaws, but maybe some good points in places. Those good points were picked up by others, so why bother with the baggage and the fights you did not have to fight? And, going beyond, the central issue I am making is not one that is primarily about democracy, but about what a civil society needs to be a civil peace of justice: a foundation for mutual respect and recognition and protection of rights, especially of the relatively powerless and voiceless in the teeth of those who wield power and wealth and tend to throw their weight around. Hume got one thing right: unless the grounds for OUGHT are in the foundation of our worldviews, they cannot successfully be injected thereafter in an era in which many are inclined to question and challenge. We must have a worldview foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. The best answer I have seen, is the inherently good God, the creator who has made us equal and endowed us with rights. An answer that many are inclined to deride or dismiss, without seeming to realise that hey had better answer soundly to the grounding challenge or they will do much harm. For reasons I say this, look all around, and that goes to the heart of the point made in the OP. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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KN: Democratic Republics and Parliamentary systems with even Monarchies are still prone to the sort of manipulations I just pointed out in the other thread, and while political messiahs do provide the face cards for manipulations, they are just the front men for something much bigger and far, far more deadly than one or two glib mouthed figures. I think Ac 27 is a parable based on a real world historical incident that we all need to heed. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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Alan: Biblos looks good, indeed. Dan 7 has pivotal significance as it appears to be the passage cited by Jesus in his trial before the members of the Sanhedrin in answer to the adjuring by the Living God question that forced him to reply on pain of blasphemy if he remained silent. It is also echoed in the transfiguration event, in the ascension, and appears in the sort of testimony of seeing his glory that we observe, also in the lynching of Stephen in which we see an almost direct quote as a live visionary incident. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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Kariofocus at #479 check out http://www.biblos.com/ Pardon, but your ref - Dan. 7:9-14 does not fit with my point because it does not contain a time stamp fulfillment. Yes, you and I know Who is being pictured, but that does not help LT.alan
January 17, 2013
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LT at 477: I posted at your site and add that the information content contained in just this example qualifies as a scientific argument, but admittedly having profound metaphysical implications. I presented a summation which should be helpful, much more is available.alan
January 17, 2013
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KN: The issues I am raising significantly antedate the enlightenment era, indeed in the case of the 1581 Dutch DOI, we will see law of nature terminology in a Calvinist state paper that directly echoes Vindicia by Duplessis-Mornay in 1579. Remember, a century later, after Rutherford in the 1640's [Lex Rex], Locke is in effect grounding a good slice of the issue of reciprocal duties of respect that are at the heart of what would later become modern, representational democracy. In so doing, c 1690, he reaches back to a statement by Hooker c. 1594, which builds on the Judaeo-Christian tradition as expressed in Jesus [c. 28 AD), in Paul [in the specific context of citizenship, in the early Roman imperium, 57 AD] and in turn these are citing the Hebraic tradition codified under Moshe c 1440 BC. The point is, that if a democracy neglects or undermines these, it heads for the problem SB just pointed to again [in words that echo my old history texts from decades ago], which I have repeatedly summed up as three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch. That is also why I highlight the issue in the US DOI of 1776 which echoes the double covenant understanding of nationhood and government under God that is a thread through all of the developments of the reformation era. And in case you think I am misunderstanding the frame of mind of the US founding generation, I point you to inter alia -- there is a whole trove on this -- the call to penitence and prayer of May that same year issued by the Congress, and the call to thanksgiving and prayer for December the next year. These are so explicit, so direct as to defy any revisionism. Indeed, I had long heard that the US Revolution was preached as a revival; what I did not see until I saw these calls to prayer (they could never be read in schools in today's era of ACLU activism, a telling issue . . . ), was that the Congress itself was chief among such preachers. We need to give Jack his jacket. And we must not forget either the main focus of the thread or the reason this secondary question has come up. Absent a solid grounding for morality, rights and justice in a worldview foundational IS that objectively grounds OUGHT -- where rights are expectations that we ought to be treated with respect in ways tracing to our innate moral worth as human beings ("endowed . . . ") -- we end up in a radical relativisation that opens the door to nihilistic manipulation and leading to the three wolf two sheep vote problem. Only, in many realistic cases, the minorities at stake may well have much lower percentages. Nor can I shut up in the face of votes to preserve the so-called right to kill unborn children in the womb who are in many cases simply deemed inconvenient or unwelcome. On that, I must cry, I must plead, I must warn that mass bloodguilt is one of the most corrosive influences in any democracy. I fear, we are seeing the results of that for a full generation now, all across our civilisation. For god's sake, let us stop, even at the brink. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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Where did you come from? You have obviously not been following the debate!
Elvis, When you first proposed that scientific findings support your beliefs, I challenged that in comment #322. When you ignored my challenge, I responded at #373. You then ignored that comment as well. And so when you engaged in the ridiculous sophistry that parental beliefs added something of value to the conversation, I commented again at #394. You have yet to respond to anything I've said, but most importantly, you have yet to respond to #322. This leads me to the rather defensible assumption that you cannot support your comments regarding material evidence, yet you want to promote the idea that your positions are based on evidence and reason. I have no desire to derail WJM’s conversation with you, but when you come here and make claims about material evidence that are demonstrably false, and then refuse to even attempt to support those claims, I feel compelled to call you on it. The bottom line is that your claim is false, and can be demonstrated to be so. You want to be an atheist - fine - but stop pretending that your beliefs are the valid product of science or enlightenment.Upright BiPed
January 17, 2013
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Much as I'm enjoying this debate, there are some historical wrinkles to consider with respect to the relation between Christian theism and democratic republicanism. Kairosfocus has appealed to Locke as someone who thought they were fundamentally compatible -- indeed, that the former is the 'foundation' for the latter -- but Locke is not the only philosopher worth considering in this light. Jonathan Israel has written a massive, three-volume study of the Enlightenment. I'm now reading the short version, A Revolution of the Mind: Radical Enlightenment and the Intellectual Origins of Modern Democracy. Israel makes several controversial but I think very interesting claims. First, he distinguishes between "the radical Enlightenment" and "the moderate Enlightenment," where the radical Enlightenment argued for complete secularism, pacificism, the abolition of aristocracy and monarchy, morality based on reason alone -- whereas the moderate Enlightenment walked those claims back, softened them considerably, and made them more acceptable to the established order (aristocracy and clergy). Second, he argues that the history of the Enlightenment is best understood in terms of how the radical Enlightenment came up the revolutionary ideas first, and then the moderate Enlightenment would water them down, and this meant making them less threatening to the establishments. Thirdly, the most central figure of the radical Enlightenment is Baruch (or Benedict) Spinoza. He considers the radical Enlightenment as beginning with Spinoza and to some extent Pierre Bayle, then continuing with Diderot and d'Hollbach in France, Paine and Priestly in England, and Lessing in Germany. By contrast, Locke, Hume, and Kant are all figures of the moderate Enlightenment. On Israel's narrative, the thinkers of the radical Enlightenment invented the very idea of democratic republicanism (hence not a 'direct democracy', easily swayed by charismatic demagogues, as Kairosfocus has pointed out) and did regard it as antithetical to Christian theism. (Spinoza is explicit about this -- living on the margins of society as he did, he could afford to be candid in his views -- although Theological-Political Treatise was published anonymously and Ethics posthumously. He was not concerned about his reputation, but about his life.) To the extent that we today think that theism (now "Judeo-Christian", apparently) is compatible with, and indeed foundational for, democratic republicanism, is an indication not only that the moderate Enlightenment prevailed over the Counter-Enlightenment, but also an indication of how the moderate Enlightenment has overshadowed its radical older sibling.Kantian Naturalist
January 17, 2013
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Elvis4708
A small remark; I wrote about TRUE democracies which is a phenomenon that, in general, came into existence after the universal suffrage was introduced, i.e. after the first world war. The senate of Athens in antiquity was indeed not a true democracy – as you well know.
A pure democracy seeks to forge a collective morality based on popular opinion. It is always unfair because it leads to a tyranny of the minority by the majority and, equally important, it encourages the chaos of conflicting personal moralities. Competing ideologies strive to gain hegemonic control, culminating in a war of all against all. In order to restore order, a tyrannical individual or group institutes a new and even more intrusive morality based on the personal preferences of a few. For the sake of normative order, tyranny of the majority is transformed into unqualified tyranny. A well-ordered society, on the other hand, must provide a moral framework that holds everyone accountable, including the majority and even those who have the power to establish civil laws. The objective Natural Moral Law, which recognizes the dignity of every living person, is the only standard that can preserve natural rights and inform the establishment of impartial laws. At the same time, it provides a culture with the necessary guidance and flexibility to grow, respond to change, or even lead change in a moral direction. As it turns out, only the Judeo/Christian tradition upholds the natural moral law and the inherent dignity of every human person. Neither the progressive extremism of atheism nor the reactionary extremism of Islam recognizes natural rights. The concepts of "due process," "consent by the governed," and "inherent dignity" all come from the Bible. You will find nothing like that in the Humanist Manifesto or the Koran. Sadly, the United States, which once celebrated these liberating religious principles, has abandoned its own natural law ethic and will, insofar as it continues in that direction, degenerate into a tyranny of elites. In some ways, it has already come to that point. The atheistic barbarians are winning.StephenB
January 17, 2013
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Upright BiPed; Where did you come from? You have obviously not been following the debate!Elvis4708
January 17, 2013
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AF; Pardon, but that's silly. There is a well known issue of mob rule as a possible deterioration of democracies, with examples ancient and modern. And from hints you have given, you know so, so show that you are operating at a different level from the snip and snipe artists we see all too many of here. You also know or should know the exact living memory case that I spoke of in Europe. In the relevant context of breakdown of classical civilisations, there was a serious problem of invasions, raiding, piracy and the like. Having sufficient men sufficiently armed, armoured and knowledgeable/skilled to deal with such attacks was a problem, and one solution was indeed the rise of the class of mounted, increasingly heavily armed, armoured cavalry and retainers. If you dispute this, kindly explain otherwise the origin of the shift to armoured cavalry that happened after the breakdown of the Legion system in the West. And indeed in the East too, the Empire shifted to horse, though I suspect some of the reasons were significantly different. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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...you need a strong man to hold off the wolves from without...
Wasn't someone being castigated in another thread for talking about the sheep/wolves allegory? This is precisely what I mean about building an argument without reference to current facts. Similar arguments are put forward by US politicians regarding the "War on Drugs". This has been a singularly successful campaign over the years, at least for the booming prison industry.Alan Fox
January 17, 2013
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E: The Athenians would beg to differ with us on the subject. We have modified and broadened the representativeness of their system. The same problem obtains that without a generally acknowledged basis for liberty and rights respected by the community on the whole, democracies tend to deteriorate into mob power games. As, is happening around us as we speak. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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Elvis at 505, Does intellectual honesty play a prominent role in your vision? I only ask because of your opening suggestion that science had provided the material evidence to convince any rational observer of the falsity of theism. I have attempted to get you substantiate your claim, yet you have avoided that challenge. I believe you avoid the challenge in order to protect your views from evidence and reason, while implying they are the result of it. So my question is remains valid; what role do you assign to intellectual honesty in developing your worldview?Upright BiPed
January 17, 2013
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kairosfocus; A small remark; I wrote about TRUE democracies which is a phenomenon that, in general, came into existence after the universal suffrage was introduced, i.e. after the first world war. The senate of Athens in antiquity was indeed not a true democracy - as you well know. Murray; After having read your last comment I do understand that our conversation has come to an end.Elvis4708
January 17, 2013
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AF: As in, from the fury of the Northmen, deliver us oh, Lord? And the like [even in preceding centuries], as central government faded and ever so much was lost? As in, one does not have to go in for dark ages mythology to accept that there was a serious breakdown in especially the West that led to the emergence of a new order starting with that grandson of Charles the Hammer, who in turn was defending Frankish rather than Roman territory when he confronted the Muslim invasion force 150 mi from Paris. And what was it they said about the Holy Roman Empire again? (as in, was it, none of the three?) I need not go on and on on the travails of the ever shrinking Eastern Empire and the rise of the Islamic empires. We can pass over the story of the Rus as in crude terms founding what would become the first widespread organised states in Russia. My basic point, from which you would detract, is that democracies and republics can and do fail, and in an era when you need a strong man to hold off the wolves from without, a king and some good solid nobles -- should I say, dux -- with enough base to own horses and [probably chain mail and leather] armour, keep some retainers and have enough practice to do good in a battle shield wall or in a charge, becomes a viable alternative to chaos. which BTW holds c 1,000 BC in Israel too, save that chariots were the weapon of choice then -- I guess horses that could be mounted by armoured riders wielding lances and riding for long hours were not yet viable. And, it is natural to raise up some sons to follow on, hence nobility and monarchy. Land is the base, and so you see protected villagers under overlordship, thence what can become a fort -- castle is too grand -- on suitably good tactical ground, and an estate with traditional ties and obligations. It is after some stability has been restored that more sophisticated things can be put in train, and I like the story of the power of the Welsh longbow and the Swiss halberd and crossbow as metaphors for the democratising influences of viable arms for the common man that would later branch out with the gun. Cannon, muskets and pikes of course allowed kings to cut dukes down to size, though King John shows how things could go the other way, leading to Magna Carta, maybe as good a start point as any for thinking about the beginnings of modern democracy. And we must never forget the horrific shock of the black death. it is in that world that we have printing, map making, the final collapse of Rome in 1453 and more precious MSS going west with refugee scholars [to join those translated through Arabic etc from c 1,000 on and the following train of events . . . ], exploration, the rise of the global world, the reformation and the Bible in the hands of the ordinary man, with Vindiciae lurking in corners behind something like the Dutch DOI of 1581. Then, mix in Kepler, Galileo, Newton. Crude and broad-brush survey but I only aim to be roughly right and stimulating, with room for fine details and adjustments later. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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...the 300?s – 500?s and then as the situation developed beyond that into a really nasty and painful time where basic survival was often in doubt? Judging by this remark, I doubt we could even find much agreement on the facts of history, let alone the lessons we might learn from history. The so-called "Dark Ages" is such an ill-deserved misnomer as demonstrated by the beautiful artefacts that continue to be discovered. Even Attila was a victim of Christian propaganda!Alan Fox
January 17, 2013
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Apparently, Elvis4708 is more interested in characterizing others according to his preconceived notions, and engaging in self-righteous rhetoric and emotionalism than in rational debate on the merits of his "democracy-based" morality perspective. It seems Elvis sees everything in terms of a choice between theocratic despotism and democratic enlightenment. Until that false emotional commitment is set aside, one is immune to reason. Democracy is simply not the answer to every question. If Elvis believes that all of my and KF's arguments boil down to a wolf/sheep allegory, this demonstrates that he is either incapable of comprehending those arguments, or simply unwilling to address them.William J Murray
January 17, 2013
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AF: Pardon, but your comment above simply reveals utter ignorance of the long term history of our civilisation, joined to an often displayed hostility to the Christian faith. Kindly explain to us how you would have constructed a realistic alternative in the face of inflation, deterioration of institutions, plague, economic collapse and barbarian invasions -- these last apparently driven by other developments in the heart of the Eurasian landmass beyond Roman control -- as the Roman empire moved into the 300's - 500's and then as the situation developed beyond that into a really nasty and painful time where basic survival was often in doubt? Kindly explain to us, what would have offered a better option, and how it could have reasonably prevailed. Then, address the cross section of historical issues on often neglected roots of modern liberty and democracy here. I suggest a read here on roots of science also. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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E: Are you aware of the story of Athens -- about as homogeneous a state as you will get -- and the Peloponnesian War, and where it ended up? Ever wondered why Plato was no champion of Democracy, as his Republic so plainly shows? Not to mention, his The Laws? And, BTW, before I go further: correction of error and insisting that it be taken seriously in the teeth of dismissals and distractions, is not "rage." The first, most famous democracy in our civilisation suicided based on patterns of instability, corruption in high places and manipulated impulsiveness -- reflect on Alcibiades especially (think of the expedition to Sicily) -- that bear a striking resemblance to three wolves and two sheep voting on what is for lunch. (And the story of Germany, post WWI is not comforting, either. Translate wolves as factions forming coalitions and you see Germany, c. 1930 - 33; the metaphor is not chosen just to be funny. I draw no comfort from how difficult it was for democratic institutions in the USA to break through to the point where they could address the oppression of a minority of was it 10%, which ended up in a civil war. Neither is the present debate on "the 1%" any comfort to me, when I think about the proverb on killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Without well grounded moral foundations, or where such foundations are in a state of least worst compromise, democracy easily slides into: Wolves, 60% . . . a landslide win. Lamb feast for lunch today, and forget the future -- the chief wolves will figure out a solution when that time comes, sorry for the next intended lamb for lunch but that is the way of the world where cats have no sympathy for mice. (Who am I alluding to here in what context, and how does this tie in with eugenics, scientific racism and aggressive war?) Frankly, that is my assessment of where our civilisation now seems to be headed, with fiscal and ideological irresponsibility in charge, monetary, fiscal, taxation and regulatory policies and ideologies that in aggregate make no sense, toxic demographics, willful blindness in the face of various existential threats, and self delusion as the worldview choice of preference. And, let us not forget: shoot the messenger who brings bad news.) While the Ancients had a whole taxonomy of possible states, on that history, they had a theory of cyclical breakdowns, leading to frustration of progress. Indeed, one of the big reasons behind support for monarchy was, long term relative stability in tough times. You think true democracies are wonderful, and consistently dodge the pivotal issue at their foundation as pointed out from Locke, in his 2nd essay on civil govt, c 1690. Namely, how the pivotal cite on fundamental equality and implications of being made in God's image leads to a culture and community that fosters self government and a limited, lawful state. Let me therefore cite again, what you consistently duck, again, from "the judicious [Anglican Canon Richard} Hooker [in his classic, 1594+ Ecclesiastical Polity]":
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80]
Let me also highlight pivotal aspects of the US DOI of 1776, which clearly show its reformation theology, double covenant view of nationhood and government under God (I will leave it to you to follow up earlier links and reflect on antecedents such as the Dutch DOI of 1581 in context):
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27 and discussion in Locke], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
In short, atheistical, radically realativist, evolutionary materialist scientism is pretty thin stuff to build a civilisation on. It is much more successful at seizing power and feasting on the lamb for lunch, forget the future game. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2013
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Christianity has helped many kings and emperors to hold their inhabitants under control. But in the West these kings and emperors are gone from the political arena and the church has therefore successively lost much of its power. This successive loss of power has coincided with a tremendous upswing in almost all conceivable aspects of human life, demonstrating that religion is a bondage to humanity, not its liberation.
Well put. Though I would suggest that Christianity in its numerous sects has not been unique in seeing its main chance in supporting the status quo, just the most successful.Alan Fox
January 17, 2013
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kairosfocus and Murray; Gentlemen! Your criticism of my(and many other secularists´) moral holding boils down to the wolves/sheep allegory. This is a very funny one but completely misleading. A constellation of citizens like that in the allegory can never constitute a democracy. You can never form a democracy with large groups of fundamentally adverse interests. This is why former Yugoslavia has collapsed, Czechoslovakia is split in two, Basque country and Catalonia want to go their own ways as is the Dutch part of Belgium. I can give you more examples on the same theme. If you do a historical survey you will find that true democracies NEVER have compromised themselves with any grave atrocities like genocides directed to their own citizens. Such offences have been carried out by autocracies and theocracies only! The Vatican´s war history is awful. The case of Hitler is perhaps an exception since he came to power through the parliamentary system. But Hitler lost the referendum of 1932 and would not have come to power were it not for the treachery of the conservative leader Franz von Papen. Excited, and probably also bribed, to collaborate with Hitler, he made the Nazi-seizure of power possible. Another credulous politician, Chamberlain, finally let the wolf loose. I think that your voluminous outrage towards my own humble person has to do with something very fundamental of the monotheistic belief, namely its view of man and humanity. As Christians you stick, you have to stick, to the fallen man image as described in the Bible. Or as kairosfocus presents the matter; “we are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill willed or even closed minded and hostile…”. In short, we are by definition sinful and without any options to be righteous without a god. From this it simply follows that all secular systems will collapse! This is also what you tell me, this is the essence of the wolves/sheep allegory! Not surprisingly, I have a more positive, evolutionary, view of humanity. 5th century philosopher and clergyman Pelagius, a heretic according to the church, was right. Man can be a better man and do good works without divine guidance(a very radical standpoint as late as the 19th century)! In the same way as athletes can improve on their physical performance, we are all able to improve on our physical well being and mental performances through our own efforts only. From this altruism is born as pointed out in the Talmud. Christianity has helped many kings and emperors to hold their inhabitants under control. But in the West these kings and emperors are gone from the political arena and the church has therefore successively lost much of its power. This successive loss of power has coincided with a tremendous upswing in almost all conceivable aspects of human life, demonstrating that religion is a bondage to humanity, not its liberation.Elvis4708
January 17, 2013
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Perhaps what Elvis4708 objects to are the very "unalienable rights" and freedoms that our forefathers put in the constitution as being given to us by our creator. These are obviously religious impositions, according to Elvis's philosophy, and only stand in the way of implementing a true morality by majority system. After all, if the majority says that being an atheist, or being a muslim is wrong, why should religion-inspired principles like "personal liberty" and "individual rights" be allowed to supercede the views and wishes of the majority? By what principle would any minority be spared the tyranny and abuses of the majority, if the fundamental principle at play is "morality by majority"?William J Murray
January 16, 2013
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