Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP 46: A big questions challenge — confident objective knowledge vs grand delusion in a going-concern world

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In recent weeks, we have seen again and again how the acid of hyperskepticism has reduced our civilisation’s confidence in self-awareness much less understanding of the world and its roots. Even as Evolutionary Materialistic Scientism, Officialdom and their media promoters (and censors) seek to create a dominant narrative. So, how do we attack this issue?

First, let’s reduce it to a graphic:

Once that is on the table, it is clear that our diverse worldviews and the extent to which any such can claim to be well warranted knowledge are at the crux of the matter. As a key aspect, as we are ourselves embedded (“apparently,” embodied with brains, senses tied to brains and self-awareness) in the going concern world, self-referentiality is inescapably entangled in the matter. So are questions of origins and the root of reality. The hyperskepticism-induced loss of confidence is manifest in our tendency to radical relativism, subjectivism and emotivism, all of which suffer serious self-referentiality challenges and undermine claimed knowledge.

Such surfaces the grand delusion challenge long ago exemplified by Plato in his parable of the cave:

Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

Of course, we should not neglect the cynical, power-manipulation Overton Window dimension of this parable:

Yes, in a hyperskeptical-cynical world, somebody is looking to gain power and likely wealth from our loss of confidence. We must bear that in mind. Similarly, the now commonly used parable of blind men and an elephant is instructive:

Here, we can focus Jesus of Nazareth’s remark on good/bad eyes, from his Sermon on the Mount, using words that tellingly echo Plato’s parable:

Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so if your eye is clear [spiritually perceptive], your whole body will be full of light [benefiting from God’s precepts]. 23 But if your eye is bad [spiritually blind], your whole body will be full of darkness [devoid of God’s precepts]. So if the [very] light inside you [your inner self, your heart, your conscience] is darkness, how great and terrible is that darkness! [AMP]

That’s the elephant we face!

The question is, are we willing to acknowledge that someone has a better, more valid overall picture than we do? (Our tendency to cynical hyperskepticism tends to lock us into, “no.” It also tends to make us miss that relativism or the like equally claims to be the better big-picture. Incoherent self-referentiality, again.)

So, we come to a Reidian, common sense driven conclusion in two principles:

Sawing off the branch on which we sit is absurd and ruinous

REID+, 1 — Rejection of Grand Delusion: Any world-scheme or alleged first principle of thought that leads to or invites a grand delusion inference is self-referentially absurd, and

REID+, 2 — Principle of Common Sense Credulity: While our common sense reliance on our senses and perceptions may be mistaken in detail, the inference that our common sense view of the going-concern world we share is delusional on the whole is thus . . . saw- off– the- branch- on- which- we- all- sit . . . absurd.

In that light, we can address the chain of concerns in the first graphic above:

  1. We have reason to believe our common sense experience of the going-concern, everyday world, though limited and subject to correction in detail (and obviously a macroscopic, slow-speed, localised view), is on the whole reliable and reasonably accurate; thus, Plantinga-sense fit for purpose relative to knowledge acquisition.
  2. Knowledge in the going-concern world thus becomes possible on three levels: first, our personal world experience as self-aware creatures is just that, undeniably our experience. If one is appeared to redly and roundly, that is a datum of experience.
  3. Secondly, as we can see from 2 + 3 = 5 — i.e. || + ||| –> ||||| — or error exists or inescapable first principles [including first principles . . . and, yes, associated Ciceronian first duties . . . of right reason], there are certain truths that are self-evident, certain, plumb line that — while never nearly enough to frame and furnish a worldview — serve as key tests for soundness.
  4. Third, for practical thought, work, education, media, science, governance, community and life, a weaker, corrigible sense of knowledge is also reasonable: warranted, credibly true (so, tested and reliable) belief.
  5. This weak sense may indeed have in it various errors, but is corrigible in light of first self evident principles informed by our experiences. However, such cannot amount to a Plato’s cave grand delusion, on pain of collapsing credibility of rationality thus our own selves as rational creatures.
  6. In this light, we can dismiss general hyperskepticism as a grand delusion fallacy; and if it is selectively applied to what one is inclined to dismiss (oh, YOU have to prove beyond all arbitrary doubt that . . .) , it is little more than an excuse for question-begging hostile closed mindedness.
  7. Further to these, disciplines of thought are feasible and can build up valid bodies of credible but corrigible knowledge claims: philosophy, ethics, physics, mathematics, sciences and arts generally, including history, theology etc.

We can directly apply the above to an analysis of ourselves, i.e. we can partially and yet credibly form a self-understanding. A useful framework for this is the Smith model:

Simplifying for our purposes:

The Eng Derek Smith Cybernetic Model

Here, we see that a two-tier cybernetic loop controller view allows us to raise the issue that the supervisory controller may embed an oracle expressing volition and intuition (including moral intuition) etc, allowing transcending of undecidability and halting problems etc that plague Turing-based computational substrates.

Where, obviously, such an oracle is not simplified to being a higher level Turing machine; that would only export the Turing problem up one level.

When queried or informed implying a query, the oracle issues a single stage answer and is a black box relative to the Turing paradigm. Thus to some degree it embeds a knowledge and intuitions base. In addition, in supervisory state, it frames the context in which action is taken, being further informed by rational, responsible (so, moral sense, conscience-guided) freedom.

From that going concern self-model, we may proceed to address the basis for, dynamics of and origins of a world that includes such creatures. Notice, this is an onward question, for without a frame for rational, responsible, knowing, free but guided thought, decision and action, there is no basis for addressing how can we know a now passed past of origins and linked substructure on roots of reality. (The attempt to hopelessly entangle ontology with epistemology, fails.)

In that context, we can immediately see that causes create effects, which may come in degrees. How much sugar is in a glass of water affects how sweet it will taste. This has immediate applications, e.g. here is a video screenshot I recently shared with policy influencers, i/l/o issues on Ivermectin — and note, this is not to excite a side-debate. (Yes, I am aware of the report of a study on Ivermectin, but frankly fear it can be twisted into a kill-shot attempt given the toxic, ideological and interests distorted state of such research.) Note, Peru is a state with about 33 million people in 25 states, comparable to Canada at 36 millions:

It is in that context (with other similar real-world, observational study/experience driven results/evidence) that the Frontline Doctors have just challenged Officialdom on Ivermectin:

Underlying, given intent to address roots of reality, is the logic of being . . . which we can know based on analysis:

Compare, a flame:

An igniting match (a contingent being)

. . . with the fire tetrahedron, which gives causal conditionality:

Fires are contingent, possible beings, even as square circles are impossible of being:

One and the same object cannot be circular and square in the same sense and place at the same time

So, now, we can contemplate another order of possible being. To see it, try to imagine a distinct world in which two-ness, distinct identity etc do not exist. Or where it begins or may cease. Immediately, such fails as a distinct world W must differ from its neighbour W’ by having some A not in W’, in effect W = {A|~A} where ~A = W’. We see that two-ness is part of the framework for any world, so once there undeniably is a world [ours] it is a necessary being, part of the fabric of any world. That applies to mathematics and its universal power, but it shows that necessary, world framework entities are real.

The root of reality, world zero, W0, in effect, embeds such beings with the additional point that through origins processes such must account causally for this world, We.

This brings to bear issues on fine tuning evidence, the complex, functionally specific, algorithm, code and language using framework of cell based life, body plan biodiversity requiring 10 – 100+ million bits of incremental information per plan, and our own morally governed, minded life.

Those questions and many more are not going to go away quietly simply because they are inconvenient to today’s establishment. END

Comments
It’s pretty easy to maintain one’s worldview when you dismiss all evidence and experience to the contrary as delusional.
What evidence? Humans have a poor track record of observing facts as they go about the world. They naturally reduce the complexity of the world by not noticing. It's a way of coping. But they have an amazing ability of noticing these previously unnoticed facts when they are pointed out to them. They are not invisible, just not noticed. So just because someone has delusional observations and they appear real to them it does not mean they are visual to others or real. We have a good friend whose daughter is schizophrenic. She occasionally imagines grotesque things in her environment. One day she and her daughter were having dinner at our house. She immediately shot up because she noticed something about her daughter. She quickly took her daughter to another room. Later she explained to us that her daughter was imagining snakes climbing her legs and was about to have a serious attack unless she intervened. It was an eye opener because while hearing about such things, we had never witnessed it before. To the young women in question, the snakes were real. But they were obviously not.jerry
July 20, 2021
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It's pretty easy to maintain one's worldview when you dismiss all evidence and experience to the contrary as delusional.William J Murray
July 20, 2021
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astral travel is far, far from the true focus here
The OP has the term “Grand Delusion” in it and certainly astral travel is a perfect fit for that. Fits right in with hallucinations and dreams and fairy tales. We now see what contrasts with confident objective knowledge by those who constantly challenge Kf’s ideas.jerry
July 20, 2021
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KF said:
Folks, astral travel is far, far from the true focus here. The very terms used tell us something. The significance of common sense is underscored. KF
Actually, experiences such as astral projection and NDEs are right on point. What exactly do "the very terms" tell "us?" That sounds like more psychological projection on your part. And yes, the significance of common sense is underscored in that such lines of experience and evidence cannot be accounted for by the "common sense" of your worldview. This is why such experience and evidence must be dismissed or discredited, or left out of the conversation altogether - to preserve your "common sense" narrative.William J Murray
July 20, 2021
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Folks, astral travel is far, far from the true focus here. The very terms used tell us something. The significance of common sense is underscored. KFkairosfocus
July 19, 2021
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Jerry said:
The most amazing discovery since the beginning of recorded history, astral travel , and Murray reveals it to all 25 of those who read this blog.
From 2008, by one of the most prolific astral projectors/travelers of our time: https://www.amazon.com/Multidimensional-Man-Jurgen-Ziewe/dp/1409224252 You can find astral projection subreddits and FB groups where people report and compare these experiences. Reports of such experiences go back almost as far as recorded history. Michael Raduga, among many others, teaches a class - and also has book outlining his very successful astral projection technique: https://www.amazon.com/Phase-Shattering-Illusion-Reality/dp/1500578037/ Countless people are doing this successfully. It's not big news. It's not even new.William J Murray
July 19, 2021
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LCD said:
You should have been careful with your past comments . Unfortunately for you the previous messages are out there for everyone to see. The change of tune is a red flag.
What change of tune is that?William J Murray
July 19, 2021
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William J Murray There are plenty of Christians in the afterlife. People talk about it there much the same way as people talk about it here. No. Nobody has asked me to do anything, other than my wife who has given me some advice about various rather mundane things, but in some cases some serious advice for a couple of our grown children. One piece of advice was for one of our sons to look beyond the superficial appearance of his girlfriend (not very attractive), pray about it (yes, to God, he’s a Christian) and see if there was love for her in his heart, and go with that love if he found it. Another bit of advice was for my oldest daughter to not have an abortion, but rather to pray and have faith that it would all turn out fine. In every case, so far at least, the advice has been golden and worked out very well. My wife was big on praying her entire life. My son prayed and married his girlfriend, and my daughter has another child, who is now the light of her life and everything worked out fine. I bet that’s not exactly the kind of advice you were expecting “demons” to pass along.
:)) You should have been careful with your past comments . Unfortunately for you the previous messages are out there for everyone to see. The change of tune is a red flag.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 19, 2021
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The most amazing discovery since the beginning of recorded history, astral travel , and Murray reveals it to all 25 of those who read this blog. UD readers are privileged!!!!! jerry
July 19, 2021
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WJM, your theory shows that how problems with subjectivity, too much grief, can then make problems for objectivity. However, you seem to have kept the logic of objectivity in tact. The astral projection and whatnot, seem to just be a logically consistent objective expansion on the commonly known objective universe.mohammadnursyamsu
July 19, 2021
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The "afterlife" areas I have visited are just normal places with normal people doing normal things, behaving in perfectly normal ways, dressed in normal clothes, etc. There's nothing bizarre or weird about it, other than you run across things, like cars or architecture, that is just incredibly beautiful with amazing craftsmanship. Also, all the people appear to be in good health, generally happy, just going about their business. The food, at least what I have eaten there and from multiple reports, is spectacular. Occasionally I have a kind "hyper-sensory" experience, where the acuity of my senses are beyond what they normally are here, but for the most part it's just like here, in my experience.William J Murray
July 19, 2021
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All the “persons” from your astral travel are against Christianity because all are demons and they hate Christianity.
There are plenty of Christians in the afterlife. People talk about it there much the same way as people talk about it here.
Are there persons in your astral experiences that asked you to atract other people to these experiences?
No. Nobody has asked me to do anything, other than my wife who has given me some advice about various rather mundane things, but in some cases some serious advice for a couple of our grown children. One piece of advice was for one of our sons to look beyond the superficial appearance of his girlfriend (not very attractive), pray about it (yes, to God, he's a Christian) and see if there was love for her in his heart, and go with that love if he found it. Another bit of advice was for my oldest daughter to not have an abortion, but rather to pray and have faith that it would all turn out fine. In every case, so far at least, the advice has been golden and worked out very well. My wife was big on praying her entire life. My son prayed and married his girlfriend, and my daughter has another child, who is now the light of her life and everything worked out fine. I bet that's not exactly the kind of advice you were expecting "demons" to pass along.William J Murray
July 19, 2021
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Yet, here I am today, joyful, entirely grief-free, fulfilled, whole. I’ve visited multiple times with my wife in what we call “the afterlife” via astral projection. We can do anything we want together any time we want via another process called astral travel. We communicate daily. She constantly helps me and others out. She has made physical objects appear and disappear, sometimes to be playful with me, sometimes to be supportive and build my confidence in the early days, sometimes it is a thing I need to do something around the house. Other people have been there and witnessed these events. Multiple other people have had astral projection experiences with her, verifying her existence and the conditions she is living in, what she looks like, how she dresses, behaves, etc.
Yep, Christian worldview acknowledge these realities and call them : demonic deception. Ask your wife what she thinks about Christianity and will tell you not to talk about . She will reject anything about Christianity. All the "persons" from your astral travel are against Christianity because all are demons and they hate Christianity. PS: and obviously you are not telling us the whole truth. Are there persons in your astral experiences that asked you to atract other people to these experiences? These "astral travels" deceptions are known in Christian literature for thousands of years.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 19, 2021
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IOW, KF, I love what and who I love. I enjoy what I enjoy. I embrace that even if it puts me at odds with you, Cicero, Reid, and all of society. I will be the man I enjoy being until the bitter end, if it comes to that, thinking the thoughts I enjoy, holding the beliefs I enjoy, doing what I enjoy. I don't care about what is true, warranted, or prudent; I don't care about duties or obligations; I don't care if anyone else considers it logical or reasonable. I don't care if I can even rationally explain or understand it. I'm like Robin Williams in the movie "What Dreams May Come." If my wife ends up in hell, I will cast myself into hell to be with her, because that's the kind of man I enjoy being above avoiding an eternity of pain and suffering.William J Murray
July 19, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, in short, are you willing to go with the untruthful, illogical etc on grounds of pleasure? That sounds a lot like crude hedonism. Perhaps, you wish to clarify, that colours onward remarks. KF
I've clarified this several times. I'm not talking about Hedonism or Epicureanism. I'm talking about enjoyment in the broadest, fullest sense, both direct and abstract, and learning how to manage enjoyments in order to achieve a deeply, profoundly enjoyable sense of being whole, satisfied and fulfilled, enthusiastic, joyful, etc. Like the true story I told about how I took care of my mother in her declining years: none of my brothers or my sister were willing to do that. It was too painful for them. My wife and I took it on; I wanted to be "that guy" because I enjoy being "that guy," the guy who took care of his mother, wiped her butt, bathed her, cleaned her up, was there for her as she deteriorated and eventually died peacefully in her sleep in our home. I'm the one that found her dead that morning. I didn't do that out of any sense of duty; I did it because I enjoy being "that guy," that kind of son. It is very, very satisfying and fulfilling, even to this day, that I was there for her, and I did the same for my wife as she battled cancer for two and a half years. I drained the fluids from her lung cavity via the port at home. I took care of her every need and desire, not out of duty, but because I immensely enjoyed showing her my love and devotion to her. People enjoy horror movies, and movies that break their heart and leave them in tears. You can enjoy the painful struggle against all odds, persevering even when everything appears hopeless, if you arrange your thoughts correctly so that the outcome doesn't really matter; what matters is how you see yourself, and the fulfillment you can gain by making the effort, especially in the face of what seems to be impossible. Simple, direct pleasures are fun and enjoyable, but they are fleeting. Mere "pleasure" does not provide anything near the depths of enjoyment that longer-term things and more abstract considerations can provide, such as being in a loving, committed relationship that stands the test of time over many, many years. Sex is fun and enjoyable, and can be very deeply intimate and rewarding, but there are far deeper, more profound aspects to a loving relationship than sex. Many things are pleasurable superficially or in the short run, but can ruin one's broader and deeper enjoyment of life, the world, and loved ones, which is why I carefully manage and pay attention to what I do and how I do it, what kind of enjoyments to engage in and which ones to avoid or strictly moderate. Every choice I make is in relationship to this perspective, including what I choose to believe and have faith in.William J Murray
July 19, 2021
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WJM, in short, are you willing to go with the untruthful, illogical etc on grounds of pleasure? That sounds a lot like crude hedonism. Perhaps, you wish to clarify, that colours onward remarks. KFkairosfocus
July 19, 2021
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KF asks:
Just so, first duties express connexions between means and often naturally evident ends of our rationality and are embedded in how we find reasoning persuasive: would you be inclined to accept what is untruthful, illogical, unwarranted, imprudent etc?
Absolutely, as long as it's an enjoyable thought or belief. For example, what was the "truth" about my dead wife and our relationship after she died? Was it warranted, or prudent, logical or truthful for me to think that I could find a way to reconnect with her, to carry on our relationship mutually, to be fully happy, joyful and fulfilled again with her? I simply made the choice to believe I might be able to do it. Why did I choose to believe that? Because it offered, as far as I could see, the only potential for reclaiming any enjoyment of life. That's all that mattered to me. At the time I could not find any information whatsoever about how to go forward, or even a story about anyone who had ever done this particular thing before - reconnect with a dead romantic partner, come through and out of grief, re-establishing that ongoing, fulfilling relationship. Do you know what kind of social pressure exists against such a course of action, in secular, religious and even so-called "spiritual" communities? Probably not. As far as I can tell, I wrote the first book about that, called "Forbidden," because this kind of effort/relationship runs completely against the social grain at all levels. You are expected to either "move on" and/or accept some level of grief the rest of your life in such situations. So no, the belief I chose was not "well-warranted" by any evidence. It contradicted "common sense" and "common human experience." It was not regarded as "truthful" or 'prudent." I had no idea if it could even be done; but I chose to believe I at least might be able to do it all the same, even though my psychology/subconscious was screaming at me, clawing at me every day, telling me "it's hopeless, she's gone, you'll never have her again." My conscious choice to believe it was possible was like a whisper in a howling category 5 hurricane of pain, despair and "common sense interpretations of common human experience." Yet, here I am today, joyful, entirely grief-free, fulfilled, whole. I've visited multiple times with my wife in what we call "the afterlife" via astral projection. We can do anything we want together any time we want via another process called astral travel. We communicate daily. She constantly helps me and others out. She has made physical objects appear and disappear, sometimes to be playful with me, sometimes to be supportive and build my confidence in the early days, sometimes it is a thing I need to do something around the house. Other people have been there and witnessed these events. Multiple other people have had astral projection experiences with her, verifying her existence and the conditions she is living in, what she looks like, how she dresses, behaves, etc. Before I went through all of this based on a tiny kernel of faith drifting in an ocean of "common sense, common human experience" social resistance, there was no place, no resource, no support for anyone who wanted to stay committed to, and continue their relationship with, their dead partner. I co-founded just such a group now with nearly 1000 members, many of whom who would tell you that group saved their lives; that just by finding support and a place they can talk, they have hope and their grief became more manageable. Traditional grief groups do not allow this kind of pursuit to be advocated, to put it mildly. Many of these people, who before couldn't even get out of bed, who couldn't even get two words out without their voice breaking and tears flowing, are back to enjoying their lives, functioning, going to work, and have regained their happy relationship with their partners. All they need was an example that it could be done, just the barest hope they could also do this, and some support, a place to gather, talk with each other, be there for each other during the tough times. And that's jus a small sampling of what I and others have accomplished pursuing uncommon interpretations of our uncommon experiences. So, go ahead and keep proselytizing for Reid's "common sense realism" based on "common human experience," KF. It works for you, and I'm happy about that, but don't think for a second you could ever convince me out of my own experiences or the way I think about them. It's just been far, far too successful to ditch for "common sense."William J Murray
July 19, 2021
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PPS: But quantum and cosmology. Ah, well, I find it slightly amusing given my academic home discipline, to be the one highlighting that the micro-underpinnings and the cosmological modelling do not invalidate the ordinary macro local view of the world. Solids, setting aside elastic deflection and plastic deformation, remain, as bodies that hold their shape and size. liquids are unable to resist internal shear under their weight, so flow and hold volume. Gases flow but expand or diffuse to fill available space. Other more exotic states exist such as glasses as super-viscous liquids. The macro-local experience is credibly real not delusion. The resort to . . . "The idea our senses “manifestly tell us” what it is and what is going on is nonsense. It might be what KF says, but at this point, given the evidence, that is unlikely." . . . is self-referential, strawmannish and self-defeating. That is the problem with views that invite grand delusion inferences. But, we must never forget that worldviews tend to be self-reinforcing and so it is very hard to recognise such.kairosfocus
July 19, 2021
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PS: On the first facts of self- and world- aware consciousness, it is patent that we can and do directly sense our embodiment, including pleasures, pains, thoughts etc, and likewise the perceptions mediated by sense organs such as eyes, ears, noses, skin [tactile], which we fuse into a self- in- world awareness. One, which we implicitly rely on to survive and even to thrive. Likewise our thoughts, feelings, voice or prodding of conscience etc. All of this is description, and note that it deeply involves embodiment in and interaction with the world, starting with breathing etc. (Stop breathing for an hour and see if the same proceeds, let us know if you can.) I continue to summarise the common sense picture, which is open to error in detail, but should be respected as credible on the whole, and rightly holds default. This brings out the problem with radical skeptical dismissiveness and alternatives starting with Plato's Cave and its narratives of social and/or internal grand delusion -- think Matrix, in modern movie terms. These are all self-referential, and once the genie is out of the bottle, its appetite is insatiable, just we don't follow infinite cascades well. If the level 1 is a delusion involving the overall common sense, embodiment and rational, responsible, free individuality in the common world, mind has been undermined. Whether or not you acknowledge it. For, why stop there: being set free, forced to stand and look behind to see parapet, flame and shadow show in progress may simply be the next level of the walk-in vision/dream . . . delusion, grand delusion. And if level 2 is suspect, so is level 3 then 4, 5, 6 . . . without limit. That's a context for my remark, there are no firewalls in the mind. Once aggressive, corrosive hyperskeptical doubt is set loose, it will lead to self-referential discredit. That's why G E Moore and before him Thomas Reid et al, warned us to have basic respect for common sense and by extension first self-evident truths and first facts of consciousness and conscience. Which last, BTW, once sound (e.g. not beaten to death by habitual wrongdoing or benumbing through drink and drugs or ideologies etc), conscience is a direct testimony to our being under moral government. Indeed, I see from scholarship, it is likely, consciousness in the psychological sense, was only seriously distinguished from conscience only a few centuries past. SEP:
Through our individual conscience, we become aware of our deeply held moral principles, we are motivated to act upon them, and we assess our character, our behavior and ultimately our self against those principles. Different philosophical, religious and common sense approaches to conscience have emphasized different aspects of this broad characterization . . . On any of these accounts, conscience is defined by its inward looking and subjective character, in the following sense: conscience is always knowledge of ourselves, or awareness of moral principles we have committed to, or assessment of ourselves, or motivation to act that comes from within us (as opposed to external impositions). This inward looking and subjective character of conscience is also reflected in the etymological relation between the notion of “conscience” and that of consciousness. Only after the 17th Century did “consciousness” start to be used with a distinct meaning referring to the psychological and phenomenal dimension of the mind, rather than to its moral dimension (for an account of the terminological shift, see Jorgensen 2014). The term “conscience” translates the Latin “conscientia”, which refers to sharing “knowledge” (scientia) “with” (con-), and which in turns translates the equivalent Greek term suneidenai (see Pierce 1955 and Sorabji 2014 for an etymological analysis of the term). The literal meaning of the term does not specify the type of knowledge involved and whom that knowledge is shared with. However, the concept has traditionally been used to refer to moral knowledge (we talk indifferently of conscience and moral conscience) that is shared with oneself. This reference to the self does not rule out that the source of the morality in question be external to the self. For example, it might be God, as in the Christian tradition, or the influence of one’s culture or of one’s upbringing, as in the Freudian theory of the Super-Ego. [--> of course, conscience is a witness, a built in testimony, it can be sound or unsound, connected to logical soundness and first moral truths, i.e. here we are . . . tada . . . first, self-evident (by being pervasive and inescapable) duties] Reference to the self indicates that, from a psychological point of view, conscience involves introspection, awareness of one’s behavior, and self-assessment. As we shall see, although these aspects often overlap, they are psychologically and conceptually distinct functions. “Sharing moral knowledge with oneself” might mean and imply different things. As for the object of knowledge, for example, it might refer to knowledge of one’s own conduct in view of an assessment of it against a certain moral standard, or it might refer to knowledge of moral standards or principles themselves.
This is helpful, for the willing. Indeed, the docile in the proper sense: those open to learn, be soundly taught. The mere inner voice pointing to one's true ends as a testimony, then calling to the discipline of walking to such ends despite stumbling, is not a compulsion of force or mechanical necessity, it is a compass that helps to navigate. Indeed, we here see the cascade in the list of seven duties at work truth --> right reason --> warrant and wider prudence --> sound conscience. Then, the social bridge to neighbours of like nature thence immediately fairness and justice. Justice being due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. Which last allows us to build a sound framework for governance, law and government by the state in the narrow sense. one that rightly may be termed a natural law framework. More can be said, it being better to lay out a positive framework than to try to chase down every twist or turn of rhetoric or error.kairosfocus
July 19, 2021
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Seversky @320: Yes, I've had many dreams similar to that. Plus, I've had other kinds of experiences that contributed to the development of my theory. The idea our senses "manifestly tell us" what it is and what is going on is nonsense. It might be what KF says, but at this point, given the evidence, that is unlikely.William J Murray
July 19, 2021
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WJM, it has long since been adequately shown that first principles are pervasive and so are inescapable. However, for good or ill, we are free. For example, even though the very structure of language and thinking inextricably embeds distinct identity (think, distinct states, symbols etc) we can and do often choose to be illogical or may simply err. This includes notoriously, appealing to quantum mechanics to try to undermine distinct identity. Just so, first duties express connexions between means and often naturally evident ends of our rationality and are embedded in how we find reasoning persuasive: would you be inclined to accept what is untruthful, illogical, unwarranted, imprudent etc? Patently not, but we too often make mistakes or willfully seek to exploit the ignorance or errors of others. As one result, we may deny the duties to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence, etc but will find that our arguments implicitly appeal to precisely those duties. Behold, then, the awesome yet terrible responsibilities of freedom, to do due diligence so we do not err or exploit and abuse. KFkairosfocus
July 19, 2021
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LCD, a wonderful story. KFkairosfocus
July 19, 2021
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What moral duty am I “using” while “denying” that I “use” it?
two wolvesLieutenant Commander Data
July 18, 2021
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Seversky: " some people are even aware of being in a dream and are able to control what happens to some extent, although I’ve never experienced a lucid dream at all." I've been doing it for 40 years. There are techniques you can learn. https://www.amazon.com/Exploring-World-Dreaming-Stephen-LaBerge/dp/034537410X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Exploring+the+World+of+Lucid+Dreaming&qid=1626645676&sr=8-1Jack
July 18, 2021
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William J Murray/311
Do we have a conscious experience of sensory embodiment in a 3D external world in some dreams? Yes or no?
Yes, I have. And I understand some people are even aware of being in a dream and are able to control what happens to some extent, although I've never experienced a lucid dream at all. I do remember quite a mundane dream in which I was going into work one morning. I walked into the foyer of a large office building where I'd worked for years, nodded to the guy on the desk, walked upstairs to the first floor where there were lines of cubicles, said "Hi" to some of my co-workers - again people I'd known for years - on the way to my desk but woke up before I got there. I was trying to remember when it was I worked there but, when became fully awake, I realized none of it had ever happened. I'd never worked in a place like that and I'd never known any of the people I greeted. Yet, in the dream, the sense of recognition was absolute. It was weird.Seversky
July 18, 2021
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KF: >>All I see>> "1: Appeal to accuracy of senses," My sense are a tool in my toolbox. See @251 "and thus to embodiment in the common world" I have perceptions. I'm not sure what's causing them, but I deal with them the best I can for the sake of my agenda. "and to duty to truth." I don't have a duty to truth. Sometime I lie in the service of my agenda. Do I have a duty to falsehood? "3: Appeal, of course, to obvious, perceived truth, thus duty to same, to acknowledge it. This is appeal to duties to truth, right reason and warrant (part of prudence)." See @251 >> On your part.>> "4: Accusation of falsehood on my part, so to failed duty to truth." My opinion. >>And the toadies.>> "5: Extended to others, where, toady is an ad hominem, as in:" Minions? Followers? Fellow travellers? If that makes you feel better. "6: Of course, this suggests that your argumentation has slipped from the merits to negative emotive appeals. However, it yet again exemplifies how objections cannot but appeal to the first duties of reason they would deny." See @251 "7: What now becomes interesting is, why pay so high a price, to sustain denial?" Ask yourself that about yourself. "The answer has to be, that somehow, being responsible and morally governed, so accountable before intelligible principles, is somehow perceived as an affront to freedom rather than an aspect of intelligent, rational, responsible freedom." See @251 "8: To which, the answer is, liberty is not licence. That is, community requires due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. That is, the civil peace of justice. Which, yes, means that rights and freedoms are inextricably intertwined with duties." Who decides what "due balance of rights" are? And why should I care what they say, except to the extent that they can punish me? I don't have any duties outside of the demands of law (because the govt can punish me criminally) and commitments (because the govt and private individuals can punish me in civil court.) Otherwise I have no idea what you mean by "duty."Jack
July 18, 2021
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LCD: "Nobody forced you to feel the duty of protecting the truth of grammar rules and even if you wouldn’t said it you thought it so is there ,it’s real. Yep that duty you deny you use it." I don't have any duty to protect grammar rules. Although I do sometimes enjoy pointing out grammatical errors to uppity nincompoops. "The duty is a REALITY , all people use it , even those who try to deny it." Everyone has duties as defined by law and commitment: do it, or face punishment. But we're talking about moral duties. What moral duty am I "using" while "denying" that I "use" it?Jack
July 18, 2021
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Quantum psysics is UNRELATED and has NO RELEVANCE to our discussion about DUTY that is an immaterial moral value. I think this kind of argument can be indexed as logical fallacy called "quantum of the gaps" that sounds like that : "quantum , therefore [ insert here any craziness]"Lieutenant Commander Data
July 18, 2021
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There are other ways of interpreting the data which aligns with evidence gained by decades of quantum physics research and experimentation – among other lines of evidence.
Wow! Quantum physics explains rolling suitcases and Hula hoops. Never knew that. Does it explain Bugs Bunny too? He’s part of Looney Tunes. Should fit right in.jerry
July 18, 2021
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Jerry said:
We send vehicles/instruments to the far reaches of the solar system. We build massive cities with ever increasing efficiency. We have technology that provides expanding benefits at fractions of past costs. The lists go on and on. ... By assessing the external environment through the efforts of millions of independent observations and then analyzing what is effective and what is not. All through an understanding of some external world to ourselves.
Nope. All through an understanding of widely corroborated and validated independent experiences. The old theory of what exists outside of that experience has been disproved by the same kind of scientific research that built the old model. This is why so many are turning to information-centric and consciousness-centric ideas and theories: to explain the evidence. That doesn't mean that old model did not or does not work well; Newtonian physics works really well. It just cannot be used to understand or evaluate quantum physics. You're conflating the interpretation of the data, which works really well for a lot of our experience, for the data itself. There are other ways of interpreting the data which aligns with evidence gained by decades of quantum physics research and experimentation - among other lines of evidence.William J Murray
July 18, 2021
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