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Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence

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The kalaam argument:

The Cosmological Argument or First Cause Argument is a philosophical argument for the existence of God which explains that everything has a cause, that there must have been a first cause, and that this first cause was itself uncaused. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is one of the variants of the argument which has been especially useful in defending the philosophical position of theistic worldviews. The word “kalam” is Arabic for “speaking” but more generally the word can be interpreted as “theological philosophy.” (All About Philosophy)

David Snoke, president of Christian Scientific Society, co-authored a paper with Michael Behe (2004).

From his article, “Why Christians should not use the Kalaam argument,”

The Kalaam argument is essentially as follows, although there are many nuanced variations of it. First, the argument is made that there cannot be any real infinity in the universe (real in the sense of physically obtained and occurring). It therefore follows that time cannot be infinite in the backward direction, since there are no real infinities. One therefore must have an initial starting point to time. But because something cannot come from nothing, that starting point must have some sufficient cause outside itself. That starting point, or sufficient cause, must be something outside of time, which can be identified with God.

My main problem with this argument is its starting point, in rejecting the idea of any real infinity. It may very well be that the universe has a definite starting point in time, which we can identify as the Big Bang. But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe. If we reject that, it is because of the data and observations, not because it is a logical impossibility. More.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
Yes, I have read the article. Have you?daveS
August 5, 2017
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daveS, The title of the article referenced in the OP of this thread is: “Why Christians should not use the Kalaam argument” Here it is: http://www.christianscientific.org/new-article-why-christians-should-not-use-the-kalaam-argument/Dionisio
August 5, 2017
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Dionisio, First, no, I don't think it follows that Christians should understand the validity of the article better than non-Christians merely from the fact that it's addressed to Christian apologists. But the reason that Snoke says that Christian apologists should not use the argument is that he believes it may be unsound---it may be false that no actual infinities exist in the universe. And it's unhelpful to use bad arguments when witnessing to non-Christians. Of course you are entitled to use the bible to show that the past is finite and "patch up" the Kalam argument, but it is then no longer useful as a proof for the existence of God, because it's circular, and hence loses much of its punch.daveS
August 5, 2017
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daveS @141 Please, you may want to read also my comment @1. Most probably you won't understand it, but it may help you to realize that by addressing the Christians, the referenced article implicitly requires referencing the Christian Scriptures too. The first Christians were Christ's direct disciples, hence did not required the Bible, which wasn't even written then. But most Christians through history have found about Christ from reading or hearing the Christian Scriptures.Dionisio
August 5, 2017
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daveS @141: Your comment @141 is off target too. Please, read carefully my comments @140 & @142. Thanks.Dionisio
August 5, 2017
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daveS @135: [@140 addendum] In case you can't find the title of this thread, here it is:
Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence
[emphasis added] The article seems addressed mainly to Christians, not to everybody. Actually, it was published in the website of an organization named "Christian Scientific Society". That means that Christians should know more about the validity of the article than non-Christians. If that's the case, which it is, then references to the Christian Scriptures are expected and even required. Therefore your statement "so naturally we are not appealing to biblical evidence" is off target, to say it nicely. Do you understand this?Dionisio
August 5, 2017
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Dionisio, Yes, I have read the OP a few times and believe I understand it. In retrospect, it probably would have been better if I had said something like "naturally we would not quote bible verses to support the assertion that the past is finite, as we need to demonstrate this assertion without assuming God's existence". Is that closer to being true?daveS
August 5, 2017
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daveS @135: "Recall that we are talking about one of the premises of the Kalam cosmological argument, which purports to prove the existence of God, so naturally we are not appealing to biblical evidence." You're wrong on that. Actually, that's an understatement. You're not even wrong. I could tell you why, but first let's try and see if you can figure it out yourself, with a little help. Did you read the title of the OP that started this discussion thread? Did you understand it well?Dionisio
August 5, 2017
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Don't be obtuse.
I'm doing my best not to. IMO, this is a very difficult subject to communicate with others about, so I don't assume others are being obtuse when we have difficulty understanding each other.daveS
August 5, 2017
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daveS
I’m really not sure why this question generates so much hostility.
It's how I respond to people who are being obtuse. Here's my suggestion. Don't be obtuse.Mung
August 5, 2017
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Mung,
How do you arrive at a moment in time such that you can label it “the present” from an infinite past? You have an answer to that or you don’t. You don’t. So you ignore the problem, change the subject, and then declare that you can’t see any problem. Well, duh.
I'm really not sure why this question generates so much hostility. I'm trying to be as straightforward as possible, but you're right, I don't understand what you're asking, I guess. I'll try throwing out a few thoughts. If you had asked me "how do you arrive at a moment in time such that you can label it the present from a finite past?", I still would have a difficult time. A huge amount of discussion has been generated by that question itself. But I take it we all assume that "time just passes", and this scenario is not problematic. Is it any worse assuming an infinite past? It's stranger, but I don't see how it leads to a contradiction.
And only you here seem to think so. To others it is not “self-evident” at all. The only reason it “seems” self-evident to you is because the past is not in fact infinite.
I don't know. I simply don't understand how this in any way relates to the finitude of the past. If you don't accept that it's self-evident, then I will add this to my list of premises: We can and do arrive at moments in time that we can label as "the present". *** Finally, let me clarify my position once more, since others have been confused by it. I am not trying to prove that the past is infinite here, or even prove that it's mathematically or logically possible, so it's impossible for me to beg the question on that matter. I am simply hypothesizing that the past is infinite, and asking others to show me this leads to a contradiction. If you are able to show me a contradiction, then you win. You will have shown that at least my conception of an infinite past cannot be correct. If not, then the discussion is inconclusive. Nothing has been demonstrated. Perhaps someone will show me a contradiction in the future.daveS
August 5, 2017
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daveS:
What does any of this have to do with whether the past is infinite or not?
You've been ignoring what everyone else has said to you about it. Why should I be any different. How do you arrive at a moment in time such that you can label it "the present" from an infinite past? You have an answer to that or you don't. You don't. So you ignore the problem, change the subject, and then declare that you can't see any problem. Well, duh.
I take it as self-evident that we can identify moments in time as “the present”, regardless of whether the past is infinite or not.
And only you here seem to think so. To others it is not "self-evident" at all. The only reason it "seems" self-evident to you is because the past is not in fact infinite. So what you try to wave away with a flippant "regardless" is in fact the crux of the matter. You don't get to appeal to "regardless" because in doing so you're begging the question at hand.Mung
August 5, 2017
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Dionisio, Even though you might ultimately be correct about the finitude of the universe, I don't think you can say that the arguments we have been discussing don't withstand serious analysis from a scriptural perspective. Recall that we are talking about one of the premises of the Kalam cosmological argument, which purports to prove the existence of God, so naturally we are not appealing to biblical evidence. The issue in my view is what one can say about this premise using only mathematical, logical, or perhaps some philosophical arguments, regardless of one's views concerning the bible.daveS
August 5, 2017
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@8 error correction It's "Big Bang" not "Big Bank" Oops! :)Dionisio
August 5, 2017
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Bottom line: this current universe had a beginning and will have an end, according to the Scriptures. We don’t know much about the coming one, but we know much about the current one, which has no infinity associated with it on neither direction, past or future. Both are finite. But the souls, which were created, hence had a beginning, will not be limited by time but by the sovereign will of the Creator. They will outlast this current universe. Therefore the arguments about infinity associated with the current universe don’t seem to withstand serious analysis, at least not from the scriptural perspective. Isaiah 65:17 (ESV) “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.” Isaiah 66:22 (ESV) “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.”Dionisio
August 5, 2017
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What does any of this have to do with whether the past is infinite or not?
Nothing, daveS. At this point we are just wondering why you are commenting. Andrewasauber
August 4, 2017
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Mung,
In a universe where time began. It’s not self-evidence that we have and therefore can arrive at some fixed moment if moments of time extend to to infinite past. You’re assuming your conclusion. It’s circular and question-begging. But don’t let me stop you!
I really don't understand your objection I guess. I take it as self-evident that we can identify moments in time as "the present", regardless of whether the past is infinite or not. For example: A short while ago, I could have accurately stated that "the present moment is [or has UTC time coordinate] 14:25:24 UTC Friday, August 4, 2017". About 48 years ago I could have accurately stated "the present moment is the instant that Neil Armstrong first set foot on the Moon". In a few weeks, I expect I will be able to say "the present moment is when the solar eclipse of 2017 first became total (at my location)". What does any of this have to do with whether the past is infinite or not?daveS
August 4, 2017
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daveS:
No, I take it as self-evident that we have and therefore can arrive at some fixed moment.
In a universe where time began. It's not self-evidence that we have and therefore can arrive at some fixed moment if moments of time extend to to infinite past. You're assuming your conclusion. It's circular and question-begging. But don't let me stop you!Mung
August 4, 2017
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It will end when we arrive at a moment in time and label it "the present."Mung
August 4, 2017
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Will this discussion ever end, I ask myself.Bob O'H
August 4, 2017
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I take it as self-evident that we have and therefore can arrive at some fixed moment
In an infinity, there are no fixed moments, because there is no context to have them in. A long moment is the same as a short moment is the same as 1000 years is the same as billions of eons is the same as Al Gore's lunchbreak time. Andrewasauber
August 3, 2017
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Mung, No, I take it as self-evident that we have and therefore can arrive at some fixed moment. Then I assume that the past is infinite and ask anyone to show me the contradiction that arises from all this.daveS
August 3, 2017
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First you must arrive at some fixed moment P ("the present"). And you can't do that. You can of course assume that you can, But that's just begging the question.Mung
August 3, 2017
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Why not? I mean of course I can't do it. But perhaps a God who exists outside of time and who can perceive every moment of our time at once could do it. As I said above, the assertion that this is possible is stronger than the assertion that the past is infinite, I believe, so I don't plan to spend a lot of time defending it.daveS
August 3, 2017
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daveS:
Each element is removed according to the following schedule: n is removed n seconds before some fixed moment P (“the present”).
You can't do that.Mung
August 3, 2017
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EricMH, I'm certainly happy to talk about countable sets such as the natural numbers rather than intervals in the real line, although I don't think it makes a great deal of difference ultimately. Consider the set of natural numbers N = {0, 1, 2, ...}. Each element is removed according to the following schedule: n is removed n seconds before some fixed moment P ("the present"). For example, 2017 was removed 2017 seconds ago. 0 is removed right at the present. According to this schedule, every element of N is eventually removed. For convenience let me use this notation: P = the assertion that the past is infinite. P' = the assertion that the elements of N can be removed according to the above process. I think P' is a stronger claim than P because in P', the pairing up of natural numbers with a sequence of moments in time has to be established "outside of time", for example by a God. In P, we can establish the pairing "in time", say at the present moment. However, I don't think that you can derive a mathematical/logical contradiction from either P or P'.daveS
August 3, 2017
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Asauber is correct, the lack of a beginning is the crucial problem, which also makes it hard to talk about since we are so used to things with beginnings. We agree there is always a finite distance between any two points. So, as you point out, for any point we pick there is always a finite distance to cover. But, the problem is not starting at a particular point and going to another point. This is the introduction of a beginning, which we've agreed does not exist. That's why I said line segments lengths is the wrong concept to approach this topic. A clearer approach is to talk about the past as an infinite set. Traversing the set can then be thought of as taking items out of the set, which does not assume a beginning. You claim that with infinite time an infinite number of points can be covered. However, this treats infinity like a finite number N. N - N = 0, but oo - oo is undefined. For example, I can subtract all the even numbers, which is an infinite set, but still an infinite number of odd numbers remain. On the other hand, I can subtract all but 7, leaving you with a finite number. So, it is not defined whether infinite time can traverse an infinite set. We can only guarantee elimination of one infinity with another if the second infinity has a greater cardinality, such as a countable infinity minus an uncountable infinity. The integers are a countable infinity, and the reals are an uncountable infinity, so if we could subtract all the reals from the integers (if that makes sense) then we'd eliminate the integers.EricMH
August 3, 2017
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In an infinity there are no points in time as there is no starting point to reference. You would need a beginning. No beginning of the chain, no chain. Andrewasauber
August 2, 2017
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EricMH, But if you have an infinite amount of time, I don't see the problem in traversing an infinite set. Furthermore, in the traversal of points in time through a beginningless past to the present, it never is the case that there remain infinitely many seconds (say) until the present (so there are never infinitely many more points to traverse). That's because even if the past is infinite, we both agree that at any point in the past, the interval between this past point and the present has finite duration.daveS
August 2, 2017
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@DaveS, The question is whether an infinite past makes sense. Even though there is only a finite distance between any point in the infinite past and the present, there are still an infinite number of past points that must be traversed to reach the present. Traversing an infinite set is impossible, since no matter how many points you pass, there are still an infinite number of points remaining. Thus, if the past is infinite, the present will never be reached.EricMH
August 2, 2017
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