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Prominent Atheists Fundamentally Misunderstand First-Cause Arguments

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Recently, a debate was held in London between theist philosopher Rabbi Daniel Rowe and atheist philosopher A.C. Grayling. The subject under dispute, unsurprisingly, was God’s existence. It’s a very interesting debate to watch. I’d never heard of Rowe before, but I was familiar with Grayling, who is sometimes referred to as the Fifth Horseman of New Atheism.

Generally speaking, the “New Atheists” haven’t shown any natural genius for philosophy. Grayling, though being a professional philosopher, does not prove to be the exception here. Instead, he shows that even when they have the benefit of philosophical training, it does them very little good when they engage in debates over God’s existence. I think it would be pretty uncontroversial to say that Rowe won the debate rather decisively. Grayling often seemed so far out of his depth that it was even making me uncomfortable. I can’t imagine how Grayling must have been feeling.

In an article at ENV, David Klinghoffer has pointed out that Jerry Coyne agrees. Writing at his blog, Why Evolution is True, Coyne says:

I have to admit to finding the prospect of an orthodox rabbi holding his own in a debate with Dr. Grayling on God’s existence rather disheartening, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what went down the other night in London.

If there’s anything inaccurate in this description of the debate it’s Coyne’s characterization of Rowe as merely “holding his own”.  Anyone who watches the debate will see that Rowe did much more than that. What I want to comment on, however, is the argument that Coyne thinks he would have used were he in Grayling’s shoes, because it demonstrates that prominent figures within the New Atheism movement (or whatever you want to call it), for all their bluster about the failure of arguments for God’s existence, often don’t even understand the arguments.

Coyne begins:

The reason that Grayling didn’t crush Rowe was based on one thing: Anthony wasn’t up on the responses of physicists to the “fine tuning” and “first cause” arguments for God.

Ok, so presumably Coyne is up on these responses and Grayling would have “crushed” Rowe if only he’d known what Coyne knows. So what does Coyne know? He continues:

The rabbi made three arguments:

  • You can’t get a universe from nothing; there is a “law” that everything that begins has a cause. Ergo, God. In response to Krauss’s book about how you can get a universe from a quantum vacuum, Rowe responded, as do many theologians, that “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum—it’s just “nothing.”

I’ve heard this many times, and what strikes me is that theologians never define what they mean by “nothing”. Empty space, the quantum vacuum, isn’t nothing, they say so what is? In the end, I’ve realized that by “nothing,” theologians mean “that from which only God could have produced something.” At any rate, the “law of causation” doesn’t appear to hold in modern physics, and is not even part of modern physics, which has no such law. Some events really do seem uncaused.

Here we see a prime example of the New Atheists’ lack of familiarity with very basic philosophical concepts coming back to bite them. Coyne faults Rowe for not defining exactly what “nothing” is, apparently under the impression that theologians are using the word in some special sense (they aren’t). If “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum, asks Coyne, then what is it? This seems fit for a comedy routine, because the answer is so painfully obvious. You see, “nothing” is not anything. “Nothing” is the complete absence of anything at all. You can’t describe “nothing” and assign it particular characteristics or properties because it is the complete lack of characteristics or properties. It is non-being. No energy, no fields, no laws, no particles, virtual or otherwise. It’s absolutely nothing. That something cannot come from nothing is not a law of physics, per se, but of metaphysics. One cannot hope to legitimize the notion of a universe popping into existence from absolutely nothing by pointing to apparent cases of unpredictable probabilistic effects taking place within some existing physical medium and labeling those cases as ‘seemingly uncaused’. There is no relevant connection between these propositions. To suggest that something might simply arise uncaused out of absolutely nothing at all is to not only court absurdity but to settle down and have kids with it.

Furthermore, Coyne seems to misunderstand what it means to say that God created the universe “out of nothing”. He claims to have realized that “by ‘nothing,’ theologians mean ‘that from which only God could have produced something.’” Here he seems to think that theologians mean God somehow fashioned creation using something called “nothing”. Of course, this is not at all what is meant. The concept of creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) means that God did not fashion creation out of some already existing material substance. Instead, God brought an entirely new material creation into existence through an exertion of power.

All that having been said, Coyne’s inability to grasp what is meant by “nothing” is really just the first part of the problem, because he fails to understand the overall First-Cause argument itself and how the concept of “nothing” fits into it. Coyne says:

Also, Rowe didn’t explain how one can get a god from nothing. Theologians like him always punt at this point, saying that God is the Cause that Didn’t Require a Cause, because He Made Everything. But that is bogus. What was God doing before he made something? Hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind?

The two comments in italics show Coyne’s fundamental misunderstanding of the logic of the argument (not to mention his misunderstanding of the very concept of God).

What Rowe is arguing is that all things that are extensional (which includes spacetime itself) are finite and cannot ever transition from being finite to being infinite, which means that they cannot occupy an infinite amount of space and they cannot exist for an actually infinite amount of time. This means that, as a matter of logical necessity, they cannot have existed eternally into the past, and so at some time in the deep past we must necessarily come to a hard beginning point where there was not anything extensional in existence at all.

Now, this is the point at which atheists like Coyne go wrong in their understanding of the argument, because they evidently think the argument asserts that, at this point, there really was absolutely nothing at all in existence. But that’s not correct.

The argument can be more properly understood as presenting two options here. It says that at the point that no extensional things existed, either:

A) There was a complete absence of being and so actually nothing at all, or

B) There was something else in existence that was not extensional.

We can then consider the implications of these two options.

If Option A were true, and there were nothing at all in existence then, there would still be nothing at all in existence now. This implication is necessarily true, because from nothing, nothing comes. Option A, therefore, must be false.

This leaves us with Option B. We can know then, as a matter of logical necessity, that something non-extensional was in existence even at the point that there was nothing extensional in existence. This something, then, would exist necessarily and would be spaceless, timeless and immaterial, and the ground and cause of all extensional material things that subsequently came into existence, which would require that it be capable of exerting a significant amount of power.

Further arguments could be made (and quite often have been made) for the conclusion that this something must have also been personal and intelligent, but even without those further arguments we arrive at a First Cause of extensional reality that exists necessarily and is spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncaused, necessary, and incredibly powerful, which are all qualities classically attributed to God.

When one properly understands the argument, it is easy to see that there was no need for Rowe to answer the questions that Coyne poses. There is no need to explain “how one can get a god from nothing”, because nobody is asserting such a thing ever happened. And to ask if God was “hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind” prior to creation is to fail to understand that time cannot have existed eternally into the past and so God would not have existed through an infinite number of past seconds. When one says that God has existed eternally, they mean that, at least prior to creation, God existed in the absence of time. They do not mean that God is just some really old guy who has been occupying himself by playing infinitely many hands of solitaire.

Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning argument are no more compelling than his attempted rebuttal of the First-Cause argument and they have been answered in depth by others (see, for example, almost any debate with William Lane Craig). Coyne tries to downplay what we do know scientifically about the physical requirements for life in an attempt to weaken the force of the argument, wrongly identifies it as an argument from ignorance when it is actually a positive argument for design based on our universal experience of cause and effect and the principles by which we all consistently infer design, and he finally makes appeal to the possibility of a multiverse, but all of these are merely attempts to block a conclusion of theistic design that can be held with 100% certainty. Even if they were successful (and there’s no good reason to think they are), they would do nothing to change the fact that, based on what we do know at this point in time, theistic design is currently the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for complex intelligent life, and by a large margin at that.

HeKS

Comments
DS, They are not my views, they are the views of intuitionism as summarised by SEP, and as supported by other things I observed. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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bornagain77, KF, Mung, mw, Origenes, Silver Asiatic, StephenB and any others I might have missed; I thank you all for your comments here. Whenever I get someone saying that creationism/ID is not actually religious, I refer them to your comments and those like yours. Your comments make the case for me: Creationism in all its forms is religion. It does not belong in any science curricula except as an example of what science is NOT. Sincerely; thank you. sean s.sean samis
July 9, 2016
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Silver Asiatic;
You seem to be saying that it is just as logical to say that “the cause of the material universe was a material thing within the universe”. Right?
Wrong. Whatever caused our universe is something outside our universe, but likely composed of something, some “material” which is not of our universe.
Rather, it is more logical to say that the cause of the universe was immaterial and existing outside of space, matter, and time...
That is not particularly logical at all. I think your confusion comes from the faulty notion that the words space, time, and matter can only refer to the space, matter and time of and in our universe. This is not so. Whatever existed prior to the creation of our universe can and probably is composed of something similar to matter, occupies some dimensions of space, and experiences something akin to our time. There is NO LOGICAL argument that makes this unlikely.
Evaluating testimonial evidence is a necessary part of research in many fields. ... A careful study of the topic, however, will make it very difficult to sweep all the evidence away with that kind of denial. So, it takes some research as a starting point.
Absent physical evidence, the most that any evaluation of testimonial evidence can show is that the witnesses probably believed what they said; it cannot prove that their account is actually accurate unless some physical evidence is found. Consistency of testimony is problematic, especially if later testimony could have been influenced by prior testimony. Your point regarding Julius Caesar is useful. We don’t KNOW Caesar ever existed, much less do we KNOW that he did all that has been reported. But we also don’t know any good reason to reject the majority of these stories; there is nothing in them that a reasonable person would find unbelievable. So we accept the ACCOUNTS. There is a lot of testimony regarding deities. But not just one deity: literally THOUSANDS of deities are reported. Many accounts insist that only one deity exists, others disagree. Many accounts include unprovable claims of “miracles”; events that no reasonable person would believe just because of the stories, and which events are reported to be demostrations of the unfathomable power of the deity. Some people accept these accounts. Some people reject these accounts. As you say, there are so many that to sweep them all away seems premature to me, but at the same time the aggregate inconsistencies and disagreements (to the point of violence) and the rational objections to the incoherent details of many accounts make me doubt any are trustworthy. I and many others have done a great deal of research on this and I’ve concluded there’s no way to resolve our doubts and I know these claims are intrinsically unfalsifiable. Unfalsifiable claims are inherently untrustworthy. So I remain a doubter.
We observe purpose, goals and motives. The origin of these have to be explained.
No. You can only infer purposes, goals, or motives. These things are not observable ever. Even human purposes, goals, or motives are UNobservable. One can observe words and deeds, but one can only infer purposes, goals, or motives.
A First Cause, with all power, all being, unbounded by space and non-dependent on anything else for it’s [sic] own existence – is a much simpler and more logical explanation.
Simpler? No. How does an immaterial thing (or “being”) exert power or maintain its own existence? If a thing (or “being”) is timeless, it cannot act since action implies before and after. More logical? No. It is never logical to assume more than is necessary. Supposing a first cause which exists outside our universe, prior to our universe, but is composed of something, and capable of action as simple as collisions with other things like it is much simpler. Supposing this is more logical because it makes minimal assumptions. This means it is more vulnerable to falsification. As a corollary to what I said above; falsifiable claims are more trustworthy because they can eventually be verified or disproved.
Science measures material entities in time and in space. The origin of matter, time and space cannot be understood by science.
No. Science observes whatever can be observed. Science uses empiricism to test explanations about things observed. Science uses empiricism to test things that can be deduced from observations.
If they can be scientifically observed, then they are, by definition, within our universe.
Almost. If the effects of something can be observed, the effects must be within our universe even if the cause is outside our universe.
Science has already come up empty.
Science is not done; not even close. I realize you very much want scientists to stop their efforts, but they carry on because the work is not finished. sean s.sean samis
July 9, 2016
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kairosfocus @ 152
God, as understood in ethical theism, did not make the physical cosmos out of pre-existing materials. Indeed, that notion is a common enough theme in pagan and I think some Gnostic views. It leads to a god struggling with recalcitrant matter and the natural view that matter is evil and to be escaped.
Okay, so what did the God of ethical theism create the physical universe from?
This is the very opposite of the redemptive view.
What does redemption have to do with the creation of the physical universe?Seversky
July 9, 2016
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Eric, kf addressed your point at 76: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/prominent-atheists-fundamentally-misunderstand-first-cause-arguments/#comment-612561 and 82 https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/prominent-atheists-fundamentally-misunderstand-first-cause-arguments/#comment-612568 Then there is the fact that Jesus actually did rise from the dead: Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Quantum Hologram - video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/1119619634717635/?pnref=story Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Centrality Concerns) The Resurrection of Jesus Christ from Death as the “Theory of Everything” – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1143437869002478/?type=2&theater Special and General Relativity compared to Heavenly and Hellish Near Death Experiences - video (reworked May 2016 – following two videos referenced in it) https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/1193118270701104/ (Entropic Concerns) The Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead is the correct solution for the "Theory of Everything" - video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/1121720701174195/?pnref=story Albert Einstein vs. "The Now" of Philosophers and of Quantum Mechanics – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1129789497033982/?type=2&theaterbornagain77
July 9, 2016
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KF,
Zip, zip, zip . . . craaack!
Heh. Yes, I saw your earlier post on Intuitionism. I don't agree with their views on the truth of unproved claims. But I gather that you think they are "cheating" somehow, actually using a form of LEM that they claim to reject. Is that your belief? If not, then I have no argument with you. Otherwise, a specific example would be appreciated.daveS
July 9, 2016
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Clavdivs @85:
But the Son is wholly God. And the Father is wholly God. And the Spirit is wholly God. But the Son is not the Father nor the Spirit.
I'm not sure what the so-called "traditional" Trinitarian view of God is, but if your formulation accurately describes the doctrine then I would have to agree that it is a contradiction and nonsensical. For those out there who might know, is it true that the Son is not the Father, nor the Spirit? ----- I should point out that Clavdivs' description could be made non-contradictory if the article "a" were placed before "God" in the first three equalities . . . So that is certainly one logical alternative.Eric Anderson
July 9, 2016
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F/N: I notice, we are still not back on the focal issue, first cause. Let me go on to the next issue in the OP:
Coyne seems to misunderstand what it means to say that God created the universe “out of nothing”. He claims to have realized that “by ‘nothing,’ theologians mean ‘that from which only God could have produced something.’” Here he seems to think that theologians mean God somehow fashioned creation using something called “nothing”. Of course, this is not at all what is meant. The concept of creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) means that God did not fashion creation out of some already existing material substance. Instead, God brought an entirely new material creation into existence through an exertion of power.
In the context where Coyne was demanding definitions of nothing, as though theologians were making definitions up (an error of projection, given games with quantum foam relabelled as nothing), this seems to be fair comment. God, as understood in ethical theism, did not make the physical cosmos out of pre-existing materials. Indeed, that notion is a common enough theme in pagan and I think some Gnostic views. It leads to a god struggling with recalcitrant matter and the natural view that matter is evil and to be escaped. This is the very opposite of the redemptive view. Again, the issue of philosophical and theological literacy surfaces. In a context where too many new atheists disdain to inform themselves through a blend of arrogant scientism and contempt or worse for God and those who believe in him. I trust, on a weekend when we have seen a sniper ambush fuelled by agit prop, those who have been saying very intemperate things such as to be raised in a theistic household is child abuse or the like, will wake up to the matches they have been playing with. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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DS, see 128 above, summarised from SEP: "Intuitionism is based on the idea that mathematics is a creation of the mind. The truth of a mathematical statement can only be conceived via a mental construction that proves it to be true." Warrant ("proof") was substituted for truth as accurate description of reality, and the rest of problems flow from that error of misdefinition, including particularly rejection of LEM as there are claims of unknown, unproved status. (Where it is utterly unproblematic to say there are things that accurately describe reality that we do not or even cannot know. This is not a forced error.) As SEP went on to say, as I cited:
there are propositions, like the Riemann hypothesis, for which there exists currently neither a proof of the statement nor of its negation. Since knowing the negation of a statement in intuitionism means that one can prove that the statement is not true, this implies that both A and ~A do not hold intuitionistically, at least not at this moment
Zip, zip, zip . . . craaack! KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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KF, If you can find a specific example of Intuitionists "sawing off the branch" on which they sit, that is, applying LEM in a context that is not allowed in Intuitionism, I would like to see it. Otherwise, I will let that be my last word on the topic.daveS
July 9, 2016
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DS, these are not pick and choose rules to be plugged into an algebra at someone's whim, they are the triune first principles of right reason inextricably keyed to distinct identity. You cannot think, reason or intelligibly communicate without them. That's why in making the error of substituting epistemology for ontology in understanding truth, the intuitionists have committed one of those errors in the beginning. They too must inevitably use distinct identity so when they try to make it seem LEM is an option, they saw at the branch on which we all must sit. If you disagree with these triune principles, you are in error, period. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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Mung, Sorry, my #147 is inappropriate. I don't think I specifically called LOI, LNC, or LEM rules of logic, but I could have, given enough time. Thanks for the clarification.daveS
July 9, 2016
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Mung,
LOI, LNC, and LEM are not “rules of logic”. They are principles or laws without which the exercise of logic is not possible.
Well, I didn't say they were, did I?daveS
July 9, 2016
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daveS: Maybe so, but I’m not speaking of using any “modern” logic, but rather just rules of logic KF himself agrees to. If we could hammer out some of the details in the W = {A | ~A} explanation, then perhaps it would be possible to find an inconsistency in it. LOI, LNC, and LEM are not "rules of logic". They are principles or laws without which the exercise of logic is not possible.Mung
July 9, 2016
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But the Son is wholly God. Colossians 2:9 AmenMung
July 9, 2016
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StephenB @140, thank you for your reply.
SB:
O: … can God be the cause of His continued existence?
Since it is God’s nature to be self-sustaining (and self existent), it would also be his nature to not go out of existence. Indeed, He cannot not continue to exist.
God’s nature is self-sustaining, but I would like to know how self-sustaining works. We agree that there is no external explanation, but I would like to have an internal explanation of His continued existence. On a more general note, do you agree that saying that something “is” X, does not explain X? The term ‘self-sustaining’ seems to suggest that God sustains (causes) His (continued) existence. However, if I understand you correctly, you hold that there is no explanation for God’s continued existence — other than, 'that’s how He “is”'. Am I correct, that by ‘self-sustaining’ you mean ‘no external explanation and therefore no explanation’?
SB: Under the circumstances, He doesn’t need to cause that which is already part of his nature as an eternal Divine being.
He does not need to cause what is already caused by His nature?
SB:
O: Similarly, there is no external explanation for something to be free, but there may be an internal explanation.
If you mean human free will … I would say that there is an external explanation: God endowed humans with the immaterial faculties of intellect and will.
Let’s say that I was referring to God’s free will. There is no external explanation, but there may be an internal explanation. - - - - One more question WRT the LOI: Do you hold that it is in accord with the Law of Identity, if I state that, during my state of self-awareness, I am, at the same time and in the same sense, observer and observee?Origenes
July 9, 2016
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When engaging in these kinds of discussions here is an epistemological frame of reference I think we need to keep in mind: In his book, The Universe Next Door, James W. Sire writes that the problem with philosophical naturalism is that it “places us as humans in a box. But for us to have confidence that our knowledge in a box is true, we need to stand outside the box or have some other being outside the box to provide us information… But [according to naturalism] there is nothing or no one outside the box to give us revelation and we cannot ourselves transcend the box. Ergo: epistemological nihilism.” A good example comes from the movie The Matrix. Neo doesn’t know that he has been part of the Matrix until he is disconnected and ejected from the Matrix. I think there is evidence and then there is evidence. Within the box (our universe) we have empirical evidence than can give us reliable knowledge about things within our universe. However, if we ask questions about the origin of the universe the evidence-- the chain of cause and effect-- leads us “outside the box”. Logically whatever caused our universe must in some sense transcend our universe. When we logically consider the existence of the universe as a whole I think there is more than apparent evidence that the universe is not all that exists. For example, from observation we know that the universe is expanding. If we run the movie, so to speak, backwards we end up at a beginning, which appears to be the beginning of not only matter-energy but also of space-time. What is it that could cause matter-energy and space-time to come into existence out of nothing? What are the possibilities? I think the question pretty much answers itself.john_a_designer
July 9, 2016
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mw Good thoughts, thank you. For myself, those sources are valuable, however, never setting them above revealed doctrine, because they do conflict sometimes. I find that perfectly understandable because it is a limited human intellect trying to receive and express what is ineffable. For me, those mystical insights open up paths for prayer -- thus helping us on the goal and purpose of life: To Know, Love and Serve God. To Know ... more and more of the Infinite. We can learn a lot from created, finite things. But knowing more directly or the relationship of persons in the Trinity, we can't get very far with sensory data from physical observation. Echoing KF's references ... Plato's Phaedo talks about how the true philosopher allows his soul to receive divine insights that transcend what bodily experience can provide. That means at least being open to what theologians have discovered about God, realizing that truths still need to be evaluated and discerned (there's a large potential for error given finite human awareness and limits of language). The point here is that prayer is common human experience. It can't simply be dismissed as delusional.Silver Asiatic
July 9, 2016
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KF
SA, where there is UTTER nothing, only non-being.
Yes, an origin from utter nothing is what Krauss needs to explain and he fails that.
We face a circumstance of very sloppy thinking and questionable redefinitions, e.g. a quantum foam suddenly becomes nothing by word magic. Then I have seen the brazen pretence that this is now the standard sense . . .
I think your words are justified. It's either profound ignorance on a very basic matter, or it's brazen pretense which is outright dishonesty and lying, like a magic trick, yes. How does a scholar retain credibility after deliberately trying to fool the public? Coyne, Krauss and many others do this.
and of course theologian- cockroaches cannot substitute silly dogma for “science.” The 1984 tactics are right there on the surface: what is the result of 2 + 2 Mr Smith? [PC answer: Whatever the Party wants.] Indeed that deceitful move — and yes, this is speaking in disregard to truth hoping to profit from what is said or suggested being taken as true — is exactly what happened in the case cited in the OP. KF
It is truly deceitful and manipulative. I would agree also that it is essentially the same as political tactics, most especially prevalent in communist systems exactly as Orwell described. Clearly, it's not science or a search for truth at work. It's a deliberate cover-up intended to protect a belief system that cannot be supported rationally or logically.Silver Asiatic
July 9, 2016
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Origenes
For clarity, my question is: can God be the cause of His continued existence? Note that ‘continued existence’ does not imply starting from “a state of nothingness”.
Hello Origenes. Since it is God's nature to be self-sustaining (and self existent), it would also be his nature to not go out of existence. Indeed, He cannot not continue to exist. Under the circumstances, He doesn't need to cause that which is already part of his nature as an eternal Divine being.
Similarly, there is no external explanation for something to be free, but there may be an internal explanation.
If you mean human free will and the capacity to make moral choices and cause moral outcomes, I would say that there is an external explanation: God endowed humans with the immaterial faculties of intellect and will. In other words, God was the external cause of the human's internal capacity to be causal agent.StephenB
July 9, 2016
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Silver Asiatic, you provide rich comments: You mention, "the only problem I have with it is regarding how ‘time will never end’". I think I once read somewhere, that God, the All, the beginning and the end, may be seen as the great wheel of eternity. Still, my little wheel of a mind cannot really understand such. Though, I believe it to be connected to eternity, as in terms of the Holy Spirit, the mind is or may be, the abode of the Spirit, i.e., through dreams, prayer, inner locutions and such like. However, as you imply; the first cause, first addressed Himself to Moses, as “I am” (Exod 3:14). Jesus said to the crowd, He was “I am” (Jn 8:58): “before Abraham was, I am.” That did it, it was like a red rag to a bull. The stones were out and the crowd had it in mind to throw Him over a cliff for blasphemy, as only One God/Yahweh could rightly be addressed in that manner. However, a few more thoughts that may be of interest in terms of the Holy Trinity and “I am.” Julian, Anchoress at Norwich in 1373, wrote that Jesus expanded to her a little the meaning of “I Am”:- “I it am. That is to say, I it am, the Might and the Goodness of the Fatherhood; I it am, the Wisdom of the Motherhood; I it am, the Light and the Grace that is all blessed Love; I it am, the Trinity, I it am, the Unity; I am the sovereign Goodness of all manner of things. I am that maketh thee to love; I am the maketh thee to long; I it am, the endless fulfilling of all true desires.” (Julian of Norwich, Revelations of Divine Love, p. 147) God is I am, the Holy Trinity. To me, more understanding of the Holy Trinity may be gained through the writings of the Catholic mystic Maria Valtorta, buried with full ecclesiastical and civil honours: though she remains unapproved and controversial. Her guardian angel St Azariah, said: “It seems that a single God is speaking, don’t you think? But our Most Holy God is Three, while remaining One. And each of the Most Holy Three has his special attributes, which are not lacking in the others, but which shine forth more particularly in One, and joined to Love, the common attribute, form the inconceivable and most perfect Perfection of our Triune Lord God.” (Maria Valtorta, The Book Of Azariah, p. 23) Also: “Now, by what I am saying to you, by the Light I am bringing you, by the fervour I nourish in you, I want you to fix yourself upon the higher knowledge, that which man commonly does not contemplate, and see what God is, the Multiform and Equable, the One who is completed in Himself, but does not exceed Himself through the prevalence of One of his parts over another, for prevalence, and the spirit of prevalence, is already egoism, and God knows no egoism, for in God there is obedience in the Son, Agreement in the Spirit to shine alongside the Power of the Father, but never a spirit of overwhelming by One aimed at the devaluing the actions of the Other Two.” (Maria Valtorta, The Book Of Azariah, p. 125)mw
July 9, 2016
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SA, where there is UTTER nothing, only non-being. We face a circumstance of very sloppy thinking and questionable redefinitions, e.g. a quantum foam suddenly becomes nothing by word magic. Then I have seen the brazen pretence that this is now the standard sense . . . and of course theologian- cockroaches cannot substitute silly dogma for "science." The 1984 tactics are right there on the surface: what is the result of 2 + 2 Mr Smith? [PC answer: Whatever the Party wants.] Indeed that deceitful move -- and yes, this is speaking in disregard to truth hoping to profit from what is said or suggested being taken as true -- is exactly what happened in the case cited in the OP. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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KF,
Composites that span A and ~A are not entities but collections. The room with the table is a sub-world R in which z’s in R are in A or else ~A. KF
Well, I could say that the ball itself is a collection (in a number of different ways). The point is we have to specify what the individuals y in W are. Once we agree on that, the ball example is simple and clear.
And to think, speak or reason the Intuitionists are using DDI. That is where attempts to undermine LEM become self referential. Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit. KF
And as I stated above, Intuitionists accept DDI [I believe, anyway?] and restricted forms of LEM. If you have a specific example of Intuitionists "violating their own rules" so to speak, I wouldn't mind reading it (in another thread, presumably). I might even agree with you!daveS
July 9, 2016
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KF
This is where the issues of possible vs impossible, and of contingent vs necessary being come to the fore.
Where is there nothing, there can be no possibility. Krauss' claim has been refuted many times since his book came out. The fact that Coyne goes right ahead and makes the same error means that he hasn't read or understood the counter-argument.Silver Asiatic
July 9, 2016
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DS, the safest formulation is that which uses X-OR. Though the Inc-OR (AND/OR) form will in context reduce to it. Composites that span A and ~A are not entities but collections. The room with the table is a sub-world R in which z's in R are in A or else ~A. And to think, speak or reason the Intuitionists are using DDI. That is where attempts to undermine LEM become self referential. Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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KF,
you shifted from ball-ness to colour; that caught my eye. It is a significant confusion, which I corrected.
Yes, of course. I did catch that error and corrected it in post #119, before you posted #120. That's partly why I had trouble understanding your objection.
Next, it is from the first quite explicit that y is a variable indicating entities in W, the world broadly considered; entities in a world obviously include concrete and abstract things, and world here would include a multiverse or the like. In that world, some A holds distinct identity leading to DDI, with a partition. No entity y in W will be other than in domain or zone A or zone ~A. Ball on table, or not.
Regarding the bolded part, that's true for certain entities. If we took y equal to the entire room containing the table and ball, then this wouldn't hold obviously, but I think it's reasonable to exclude ys which overlap both A and A-complement from consideration. I'm thinking of the ball illustration as functioning like a Venn/Euler diagram, with individuals corresponding to points, so each individual is either completely in A or in A-complement.
The partition is a dichotomy not a band [borders can be defined, an onward exercise], so y (already identified as in W) can only be in ONE of the two zones. This is LEM and the X-OR form gives it exactitude.
Yes, agreed.
This is all on a tangent to the focal matter for this thread’s OP, and with all respect is an exercise in making mountains out of mole-hills. To be direct, I get the distinct impression of pseudo-precision as a cover for evasion of the simple and clear.
I do accept that the ball example is simple and clear, but not knowing what ys in W that we are quantifying over did add some confusion. I think that's resolved now. And as I've said before, I think your illustration is persuasive for certain instances of the LEM. I do have reservations (about whether all formulations of LEM are corollaries of DDI) but I think this is not the place for them. Regarding Intuitionism and Brouwer, et al, do they really use a form of the LEM which is "off limits" for intuitionists? They do accept LEM in a restricted form. I suppose this is best addressed in another thread. I do agree with some of your other criticisms of Intuitionism; I believe the Goldbach conjecture is either true or false, for example.
Instead, these should acknowledge that truths can be unknown or even unknowable to us without this being meaningless — man is NOT the measure of all things.
I do agree with this wholeheartedly.daveS
July 9, 2016
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mw Interesting, and I would tend to agree with the quote and your observations. The mystic received knowledge from beyond the universe, from an angelic source. The idea that there is a 'spiritual space', incomprehensible in material terms is reasonable. The only problem I have with it is regarding how 'time will never end'. The classical understanding is that reality itself is 'timeless'. It's the eternal present. More information from mysticism - a very basic source - Moses' theophany where God names Himself "I am Who am". There was have the First Cause cosmological argument from a mystical source. "I am Who exists". Or "I am Existence itself". Yes, the First Cause is the source of All Being, All Actuality and All Reality. Plus, "I am" - means "I exist Now". I am The Now, The Present. So, there's no time - just Being in the Present tense. Philosophical and theological arguments support this. A quote I use from another Catholic (of high repute) mystic, St. John of Avila: "Earthy happiness, like smoke, gradually fades away and is not seen. The years we pass here are as but a brief dream, from which we awake to find it has all been an illusion". It's an illusion that mirrors the real, reality. Our sight is filtered by matter, time and space. We see only within this universe. Mystics have a glimpse from beyond, visions momentary but clear. Philosophy points to the need for this kind of knowledge. Thus theology. 1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.Silver Asiatic
July 9, 2016
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Food for thought?:- At the ascension, witnesses testified, Jesus disappeared into the sky/space. It seems to me, eternal space and time is somehow part of physical space and time. The following extract is from a Catholic mystic of no repute. Allegedly, John Morgan’s guardian angel Seraph said: “. . . Material things are things you can touch and feel, even the rotations of gasses you see in space have an end, a life expectancy, a time when they begin and when they will terminate. But they move and exist in a spiritual space like man. Space is spiritual because it has no beginning and no end and it always existed in time and will never end in time, because it is part of God. Time is similar because it is beyond the understanding of the human intellect that it never began and will never end. The words time, beginning, the end, are words that were invented by man, because the human body like all material things is subject to these conditions. But even this word “world” only exists in man’s mind because he is not yet capable of the full comprehension of reality. . . . All of what I have told you is part of God’s plan. Space will always be a mystery to man yet he knows it is there. God will always be a mystery, yet he knows He is there. The existence of God is built into every soul born, and if man trusts in God he will have the answer to everything in God’s way, and in God’s time. That is all that man needs to know.” [Val Conlon, Angel on my Shoulder (Maryville: Ireland: Divine Mercy Publications, 2005), vol. 1, pp. 42–43.] Also, His instantaneous resurrection indicates in terms of that belief, instant was the creation of Adam and Eve, and instant the recreation of the form of Jesus from dead matter. The spirit gives life, not matter. That is, God/Jesus instantly generated himself [evolved if you must] into a dual life form that could accommodate the physical and the spiritual. Therefore, proving within the limits of belief, Darwinian evolution theory is false. The first causeless cause, does not wait on time or for time. He commands and it is done. That is why He is the Almighty whom Darwin had first to eject and reject to put his creation myth in operation and beguile almost the world. However, surely, God exists in eternal time and space, or indeed, is part of such. Of which we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28).mw
July 9, 2016
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F/N: From the OP:
Coyne begins:
The reason that Grayling didn’t crush Rowe was based on one thing: Anthony wasn’t up on the responses of physicists to the “fine tuning” and “first cause” arguments for God.
Ok, so presumably Coyne is up on these responses and Grayling would have “crushed” Rowe if only he’d known what Coyne knows. So what does Coyne know? He continues:
The rabbi made three arguments: You can’t get a universe from nothing; there is a “law” that everything that begins has a cause. Ergo, God. In response to Krauss’s book about how you can get a universe from a quantum vacuum, Rowe responded, as do many theologians, that “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum—it’s just “nothing.” I’ve heard this many times, and what strikes me is that theologians never define what they mean by “nothing”. Empty space, the quantum vacuum, isn’t nothing, they say so what is? In the end, I’ve realized that by “nothing,” theologians mean “that from which only God could have produced something.” At any rate, the “law of causation” doesn’t appear to hold in modern physics, and is not even part of modern physics, which has no such law. Some events really do seem uncaused.
Here we see a prime example of the New Atheists’ lack of familiarity with very basic philosophical concepts coming back to bite them. Coyne faults Rowe for not defining exactly what “nothing” is, apparently under the impression that theologians are using the word in some special sense (they aren’t). If “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum, asks Coyne, then what is it? This seems fit for a comedy routine, because the answer is so painfully obvious. You see, “nothing” is not anything. “Nothing” is the complete absence of anything at all. You can’t describe “nothing” and assign it particular characteristics or properties because it is the complete lack of characteristics or properties. It is non-being. No energy, no fields, no laws, no particles, virtual or otherwise. It’s absolutely nothing. That something cannot come from nothing is not a law of physics, per se, but of metaphysics. One cannot hope to legitimize the notion of a universe popping into existence from absolutely nothing by pointing to apparent cases of unpredictable probabilistic effects taking place within some existing physical medium and labeling those cases as ‘seemingly uncaused’. There is no relevant connection between these propositions. To suggest that something might simply arise uncaused out of absolutely nothing at all is to not only court absurdity but to settle down and have kids with it.
This is where the issues of possible vs impossible, and of contingent vs necessary being come to the fore. Until we understand this frame for thought on ontology, we will flounder in futility. My initial thoughts at 7 above:
There is a problem of understanding possible vs impossible and contingent vs necessary being, thence the causal explanation for contingent, possible beings. Serious candidate necessary beings are either impossible or actual. The former, as core characteristics (like those of a square circle) stand in mutual contradiction. The latter, because such a being is embedded in the framework for a world to exist. For simple but telling example, once there is distinct identity, antithesis exists, W = {A |~A} and two-ness necessarily is. Also, the jointly present triple first principles of right reason will be undeniable: LOI, LNC, LEM. [--> notice how the simple has had to be belaboured at length as we have been taught to think otherwise, in ways that as just shown for Intuitionism, are self-referentially incoherent.] God, of course is in the first instance a serious candidate necessary being, while a now commonly suggested parody . . . the flying spaghetti monster . . . is at best a contingent, possible being. That the latter is offered in parody of the former, speaks volumes. (Where of course active, explicit denial or implicit dismissal of the reality of God implies a claim that the God of ethical theism is impossible of being.) In my further view, we are inescapably under moral government, and this demands that the root of reality be capable of grounding a world in which moral government is real. And those who suggest or imply that such is delusional should ponder how this pervades thought, starting with the sense of urgency towards truth that is a premise of responsible rationality.
Then, in 17, I added:
The core matter is possibility/ impossibility of being and contingency/ necessity of being. An impossible being is such that in no actual or potentially actual world, can it exist. This is because core characteristics stand in mutual contradiction, e.g. a square circle. (Note also, I have implied the context of possible worlds. A simple way is to look at clusters of variables, dynamics and propositions that define how a world is or may be.) A possible being would exist in at least one possible world, were that world actualised. Contingent beings would exist in one or more such worlds, but not all. For instance you or I are contingent. Like a fire exemplifies, such are dependent for existence on external, enabling on/off factors, so called necessary causal factors. (Necessary for the contingent being to exist.) A necessary being [in the ontological sense] is such that it has no dependence on external enabling factors, so a serious candidate will be either impossible or else actual. For instance two-ness is tied to distinct identity and thus is foundational to any world existing. It is a necessary being. Try to imagine two-ness coming to an end or beginning to exist. Futile. Necessary beings are eternal! That sounds strange to modern “scientific” ears. But it points to a deeper point. Nothing, non-being has no causal powers. Were there ever an utter nothing, such would forever obtain. That a world is, entails that something, at world root level, is a necessary being. (Where also, a serious candidate necessary being is either impossible or actual, tied to the logic of its core characteristics and what is required for a world to be.) In addition, we find ourselves inescapably under moral government. Even in reasoning we find ourselves under an urgency of truth and right. Were such delusional, it would undermine responsible rational mind. So, we face the IS-OUGHT gap at said world-root level. There must be an IS not only capable of causally grounding the world but also of grounding the moral world we inhabit. Such a being would not be caused, nor is it composite, etc. The best candidate is a mind, as to category, an eternal mind with power to call a world into being. And an inherently good mind. Where, such a serious candidate has long been on the table: the inherently good, creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. This is not religious dogma, I have defined a worldview entity often termed the God of the Philosophers, the God of ethical theism. If you doubt the assertion that this has been the only sustainably serious candidate, one is invited to simply submit another and proceed to comparative difficulties: _____________________ . So, God is not just a logical explanatory entity but an ontological- metaphysical one per the root of the world. And yes, as necessary, God would be at root of ANY possible world.
I think these are where we can begin afresh i/l/o Plato in The Laws Bk X. KF PS: Yes, literally, our troubles start from misunderstanding nothingness; where, properly it refers to non-being, what rocks dream of {Ari] etc, that which utterly is not. That is how far we have regressed as a civilisation.kairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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F/N: To refocus the first cause issue, again, Plato in The Laws Bk X:
Ath[enian Stranger]. Then, by Heaven, we have discovered the source of this vain opinion of all those physical investigators; and I would have you examine their arguments with the utmost care, for their impiety is a very serious matter; they not only make a bad and mistaken use of argument, but they lead away the minds of others: that is my opinion of them. Cle. You are right; but I should like to know how this happens. Ath. I fear that the argument may seem singular. Cle. Do not hesitate, Stranger; I see that you are afraid of such a discussion carrying you beyond the limits of legislation. But if there be no other way of showing our agreement in the belief that there are Gods, of whom the law is said now to approve, let us take this way, my good sir. Ath. Then I suppose that I must repeat the singular argument of those who manufacture the soul according to their own impious notions; they affirm that which is the first cause of the generation and destruction of all things, to be not first, but last, and that which is last to be first, and hence they have fallen into error about the true nature of the Gods. Cle. Still I do not understand you. Ath. Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [[ = psuche], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul’s kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body? Cle. Certainly. Ath. Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind. Cle. But why is the word “nature” wrong? Ath. Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise. [[ . . . .] Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]
Here, this begins. Perhaps, that is where we need to go to understand and evaluate for ourselves. KFkairosfocus
July 9, 2016
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