Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

They said it: “atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist” — a fatal worldview error of modern evolutionary materialist atheism

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email
Prof. Dawkins of the UK, a leading evolutionary materialist and atheist

It is an open secret that a major motivation for the commonly encountered, too often angry  rejection of  the design inference is a prior commitment to Lewontinian evolutionary materialistic atheism; a common thread that unites a Sagan, a Lewontin, many members of Science institutions and Faculties of Universities, and of course many leading anti-design advocates like those associated with the US-based National Center for Science Education [NCSE], as well as leading “science” [–> atheism] blogs and Internet forums and the like.

Such atheists also often imagine that they have cornered the market on scientific rationality, common-sense and intelligence, to the point where professor Dawkins of the UK has proposed a new name for atheists: “brights.”

By contrast, he and many others of like ilk view those who object to such views as “ignorant, stupid, insane or . . . wicked.” (Perhaps, that is why one of the atheistical objectors to UD feels free to publicly and falsely accuse me of being a demented child abuser and serial rapist. He clearly cannot see how unhinged, unreasonable, irrational, uncouth, vulgar and rage-blinded his outrageous behaviour is.)

For telling instance, in Lewontin’s notorious 1997  NYRB article, Billions and Billions of Demons, we may see:

. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And, if you wish to try the now routine turnabout false accusation of quote mining, kindly cf. here at UD as well as the above linked.]

The ideologically motivated atheistical, evolutionary materialist a priori is plain.

No wonder Philip Johnson rebutted Lewontin thusly, in his November 1997 reply:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  . . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Consequently,  if we are to put the design inference issue on a level playing field so it can be objectively assessed as a valid scientific inference, we have to first address the fatal flaws of reasoning in the underlying thought that clothes materialistic atheism in the holy lab coat. (And of course,  given its sacrificial, protective purpose, it should be no surprise that I have never seen or owned an expensive lab coat.)

So, “scientific” atheism must now go under the microscope:

1 –> The first problem is to accurately define. For that, it is instructive to first cite the well known online Stanford Enc of Phil, in its article on Atheism and Agnosticism by J J C Smart of Monash University:

‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. I shall here assume that the God in question is that of a sophisticated monotheism. The tribal gods of the early inhabitants of Palestine are of little or no philosophical interest. They were essentially finite beings, and the god of one tribe or collection of tribes was regarded as good in that it enabled victory in war against tribes with less powerful gods. Similarly the Greek and Roman gods were more like mythical heroes and heroines than like the omnipotent, omniscient and good God postulated in mediaeval and modern philosophy. As the Romans used the word, ‘atheist’ could be used to refer to theists of another religion, notably the Christians, and so merely to signify disbelief in their own mythical heroes. [First published Tue Mar 9, 2004; substantive revision Mon Aug 8, 2011. Acc: Nov 12, 2011.]

2 –> This is of course exactly what is traditionally understood, and it is what the etymology of the underlying Greek, “a + theos,” would suggest: the denial of the reality of God.  But, if one turns to the reliably evolutionary materialist Wikipedia, we will see that in its article on Atheism, there is now a commonly encountered evidently rhetorically loaded redefinition, as appears in the title for this post:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists . . . . Atheists tend to be skeptical of supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence.

3 –> The last statement, of course, strongly reflects the Lewontinian a priori assertion of materialism, and the underlying notion that to have a supernatural as a possibility would make our cosmos into a chaos. Indeed as Lewontin went on to say: “To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.”

4 –> Back of this, lies Hume’s basic hyper-skeptical error, in effect that there has been a uniform experience that firmly establishes the laws of nature and so we may dismiss any claimed supernatural exceptions as beyond reasonable belief. This boils down to begging the question in various ways, as first of all, we precisely do not and cannot have a global observational basis for the laws of science, they are inductive — thus fallible — generalisations. [Cf. Charles Babbage and Alfred Russel Wallace. (Yes, THAT Wallace, the co-founder of modern evolutionary theory and advocate of intelligent evolution.) Also cf a typical contemporary essay here.]

5 –> Similarly, for a miracle to stand out as being beyond the general course of the world, there must be just such a general course, i.e.  a world in which miracles are possible is one in which there will be general regularities amenable to scientific investigation. Informed theists will then tell us that, that the Author of that general course may, for His own good reasons, occasionally intervene at a higher level, in no wise detracts from the reliability of that general course. That is, Lewontin et al have erected and knocked over a ridicule-loaded strawman caricature of theism. (Newton knew better, 300 years ago in his General Scholium to Principia.)

6 –> Moreover, give that there are in fact millions who across centuries, testify to living encounter with God, and to being transformed thereby — including a generous slice of the leading lights of our civilisation across time [just try the likes of a Pascal, a Maxwell, a Kelvin or an Aquinas, for a quick list], to dismissively reject the possibility of miracles or the credibility of witnesses thereto inadvertently puts the human mind itself under suspicion.

7 –> For if so many millions are deluded, then the mind becomes highly questionable as an instrument of inquiry. That is, the atheist who imagines that those who oppose him are delusional, in the teeth of the numbers and quality of the people in question, saws off the cognitive branch on which he too must sit.

8 –> But, the very definition of atheism as “absence of belief in god or gods” that is now so commonly being pushed as the “real” definition, has deeper problems. For, it is usually offered as an argument that the atheist is simply taking a default view: YOU must prove your theism, I hold no position. (Cf. here too, just for fun.)

9 –> This is fallacious and misleading, indeed, a fatal worldview error. Why is that so?

a: It improperly shifts — and indeed ducks — the burden of warrant on comparative difficulties that any serious worldview must shoulder. If it is to be serious as a worldview.  (And, let me add {Nov14}: we all have worldviews— clusters of core beliefs, views and attitudes that define how we see the world; the question is whether we have thought them through to their idea-roots, connexions, degree of warrant, and forward to conclusions and consequences for us and our societies.)

b: An easy way to see all of this, is to notice how the very same atheists usually want to dress up their atheism in a lab coat.

c: For instance, as Lewontin tried to argue in his 1997 NYRB article, the a priori materialistic scientific elites want the general public to look up to them as the fountain of knowledge and wisdom, and to come to believe that science is “the only begetter of truth.”

d: But, this is NOT a scientific claim, it is a claim about the grounds that warrant knowledge, indeed an assertion of monopoly power over knowledge. Such is therefore properly a philosophical knowledge claim, i.e an epistemological claim.

e: Lewontin is trivially self-refuting.

f: But the claim is also illustrative of how claims at worldview level are inevitably linked to one another.

g: And, the denial or rejection of belief in God is plainly not an isolated claim, it sits in the centre of a cluster of evolutionary materialistic beliefs.

h: Indeed, Lewontin himself goes on to assert that the significant elites believe that “science” is the surest means to put us in touch with “physical reality” [= all of reality, for the materialist],  and that he and his ilk are committed to a priori, absolute materialism.

i: That is the context in which we see that science itself is being radically ideologised by question-begging redefinition. The declarations of the US National Science Teachers Association are particularly revealing on this, once we recognise that for “naturalistic” we can freely read “materialistic”:

The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . .

Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000. Emphases added.]

j: This ideologises science and science education, tearing out of the heart of science any serious concern to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world, and to recognise the inescapable limitations of empirically based inductive methods in that pursuit which mean that science must be open-ended and provisional in its fact claims and explanations.

k: In short, the intellectual duty of care to critically assess the scientific materialism at the heart of the relevant form of atheism we face,  cannot be ducked so easily as by using the rhetorical tactic of putting up a question-begging redefinition of atheism.

l: This means that scientific atheists must warrant their evolutionary materialism,  they must warrant their redefinition of science based on imposition of so-called methodological naturalism, and they must warrant their commonly held view that science monopolises genuine, objective knowledge.

10 –> Evolutionary materialistic atheism, therefore, has a too often ducked challenge to warrant its worldview level claims, on (a) factual adequacy,  (b) logical coherence, and (c) explanatory balance and power [being elegantly simple, but not simplistic and certainly not ad hoc].

11 –> That means it needs to take seriously the implications of the empirically reliable principle that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [especially digitally coded, symbolic information] — once we can directly observe the causal process — are inductively strong signs of design.

12 –> Similarly, it has to seriously address the issue of the best explanations for the credibly fine tuned cosmos we inhabit, which on evidence sits at a precise operating point that facilitates Carbon chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life that uses digital information to guide its self-replication and to synthesise the key nanomachines of metabolic life processes.

13 –> Likewise, it has to address the signs of design that are evident in the living cell, starting with the use of complex, functionally specific digital codes and algorithms to guide critical biochemical processes of life such as protein synthesis.

14 –> The need to account for the increments in complex functionally specific, integrated often irreducibly complex organisation and associated information to account for the dozens of body plans of multicellular life, including our own, is an extension of this challenge.

15 –> Similarly, such materialistic atheists need to credibly account for the reliability and trustworthiness of the human mind, in light of the Haldane challenge that has been on the table since the 1930’s (and of course modern extensions to that challenge):

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” [[“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. ]

16 –> Last but not least, given the force of the amorality confessed to and/or directly implied by leading materialistic atheists such as Dawkins and Provine,  atheistical, evolutionary materialists need to very carefully ponder the issues that were long since put on the table by Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 2350 years ago, in 360 BC:

[[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .

[[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.– [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . .

__________

It seems there are a few questions for scientific atheists to answer to, before we should take their attempt to monopolise science as anything beyond an ideological agenda.

It would be quite interesting to see their answers. END

Comments
@kairosfocus,
Now, I will note on points: a: I have never said that the keystone proposition at the heart of Atheism as such — denial of the reality of God — is a worldview, but that it is an integral part of a worldview, in our day most often “scientific” atheism is part of evolutionary materialism dressed up in a lab coat. Which is what I specifically addressed, as it is the relevant form.
Uh, in this very post you said this:
This is fallacious and misleading, indeed, a fatal worldview error. Why is that so? a: It improperly shifts — and indeed ducks — the burden of warrant on comparative difficulties that any serious worldview must shoulder. If it is to be serious as a worldview.
Sorry, you busted yourself on this one. Now that this is pointed out, you're backtracking, but your post commits yourself to the very thing you deny here. The "it" in "If it is to be serious as a worldview" is "atheism" in your post. So, this:
b: So, the attempt to suggest otherwise was an improper resort to strawman caricature.
is discredited. Just for the record.
c: Contrary to your attempted denial, the resort to tendentious redefinition is often used in exactly the way I noted.
Atheism cannot be a worldview. It's not a matter of definition. It doesn't qualify conceptually, because it does not provide any overarching lens through which the extramental world is interpreted. Worldviews can support atheism, and many do, but you are either failing to grasp the basic concepts behind "worldview", or simply continuing your pattern of incorrigibility, here.
d: And indeed, we can see that you do the same, for you do not address the worldview frame that embeds “scientific” [evolutionary materialist] atheism that the post does, but use the question-begging attempted redefinition of atheism as a distraction. Nowhere do you actually cogently address the matters placed on the table, including Smart’s definition that appears in the Stanford Enc of phil, a deservedly famous reference work.
Just in passing, here is the substance of what I mean by posting disingenuously. You put out a rambling, random walk of a large slew of issues -- this is your version of the "Gish Gallop" -- and then you find validation when point #15 of the hundred and more problems you introduce is not taken up. If you spam like that, or like BA77 does, you are certain to find lots of "triumph" in the fact anyone with the skills to point out your errors is likely to have enough sense NOT to indulge your spam techniques on an "all points" basis. On Smart's definition, that works for me, and is not controversial. That's just the "positive atheism" formulation as opposed to the "negative atheism" rendering which you refer to at Wikipedia (i.e. just a simple lack of belief rather than a positive belief that no God or gods exist). This does nothing for your case at all, and is just part of the space wasting of your rambling post.
e: The attempt to cast my accurate citations and comments on Lewontin’s infamous remarks remind me of the lawyer who spent a great deal of time and rhetoric explaining the difference between his client’s invention and someone else’s patent. Then, the other attorney simply stood up, put the two on display and said, simply LOOK, and see the facts. End of case.
Now you're flattering yourself again. This isn't responsive to the points being raised. Why do you continue to cut off Lewontin's comments before they are finished in the quote you have on auto-paste? This is again the substance driving the conclusion that you aren't just mistaken, but determined to be incorrigible. Being mistaken is a problem but a superable one. Being incorrigible just makes people tune you out (if the spam factor didn't already do that).
f: A priori imposed materialism, disguised as a “methodological” necessity, is a worldview level begging of the question that as I said above [and have discussed in the onward linked], takes the heart out of science: unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) empirical evidence-led search for the truth about our world based on observation, experiment, analysis, and reasoned discussion.
It's not philosophical materialism, it's methodological materialism. Theists and atheists on a philosophical level engage in methodological naturalism as the predicate for the practice of science, every day. Methodological naturalism is a requirement for scientific knowledge to make any headway at all, epistemically. So the scientist who is a Christian engages methodological naturalism just as fully as the metaphysical materialist, and in so doing, scientific epistemology coheres, and natural knowledge can be developed. You know all this and have been corrected on this ad nauseum. This is just a brief marker noting, yet again, not just being mistaken, but incorrigible on this point. Claiming it's a "disguised" necessity just signals political intransigence rather than understanding of scientific epistemology. That's enough. I see you want to wander into "is vs. ought" and Euthyphro, inter alia. This is the Gish Galllop, KairosFocus Remix™. I will do my part in glancing off your incorrigibility in some brief measure, just as another data point bearing witness to the problem, but the Gallop is a chump's game. I'm happy to focus on some issue in particular, and give it a decent treatment, but the evidence is quite clear on this blog that that just is not how you are willing to operate. Like BA77, this is cut-and-paste boilerplate apologetics, which can't be bothered to stop and think and interact in a discussion-specific way, or to at least evolved the boilerplate to reflect a basic awareness and familiarity of what you are resisting, even if you don't agree with it. +++++++++++ ED: ESt and onlookers: I have responded at 15 below, to correct some serious misrepresentations and ad hominems in this post [the Gish gallop false accusation ESt makes is seriously loaded to the point of being a smear]. I note here, as it is now hard to follow threads with sub-threads.eigenstate
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
07:11 AM
7
07
11
AM
PDT
Jammer
It looks like Jello’s the latest Darwinist to have a nervous breakdown due to the continual rise of Intelligent Design
Pardon me Jammer, but where is Intelligent Design continually rising? It certainly isn't in the working scientific community, or in academia, or in the popular press, or on the Internet. AFAICT after ID's humiliating defeat at Kitzmiller v. Dover ID took an almost vertical nose dive and has been bouncing along the noise floor ever since. Did you have some other venue in mind?GinoB
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
06:09 AM
6
06
09
AM
PDT
WJM: You have raised several pertinent points. I do have a concern that yet another thread on the "genocide" red meat distractive accusation, would go nowhere, given what has already been gone over again and again in recent weeks. (I have given links on this above.) I ask that the thread therefore focus on the main, worldview issue. That is what the distraction would divert attention from, and it is what is in the end decisive, as even your own remarks on the support for genocide false accusation show. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
06:05 AM
6
06
05
AM
PDT
I've been involved (for a couple of months now I think) in a debate at Dr. Liddle's website over morality and how one rationally justifies calling what anyone else does "immoral" or "wrong" without a theistic premise. So far, only one person there has honestly responded that, under moral relativism, gassing Jews is as intrinsically moral an act as hiding them in your attic to save them. If one is a moral relativist (from atheistic materialism), there is simply no way to rationally justify calling anything anyone does - including genocide - "wrong". Wrong in regards to what purpose? Why should anyone else adopt that purpose? If purposes are subjectively chosen, and my purpose is to promote ethnic purity or discourage non-heterosexual activity, then going around killing people not like me is by definition moral. Who are you to say otherwise? By what standard are you judging my purpose immoral? Is it by consensus? If consensus makes something moral, then as long as there is consensus to promote ethnic purity genocide is once again validated as moral. One might say that morality is derived from empathetic conscience, but this once again makes those whose empathetic conscience tells them to destroy Jews for the good of mankind completely moral. Whose conscience? Whose empathy? If they argue that morality should be based on what is best for the most people, who gets to decide what "best" means? It just begs that question, and begs the question about why I should adopt that maxim in the first place. Then we come to necessary consequences; there are no necessary consequences under moral relativism, there are only arbitrary consequences. If the consequences are entirely arbitrary, why even worry about it? Why bother? What's the point in arguing? If there are no necessary consequences to moral/immoral behavior, then the only reason to argue about morality is simply to manipulate others, by hook or by crook, into behaving in a manner you personally find comfortable or advantageous. IOW, trying to get others to behave the way you want them to for your own benefit (even if it would ostensibly help others too) via rhetoric or ridicule is the only reason to engage in debates about morality (if one is a moral relativist), because for the moral relativist no behavior is "wrong" by any objective standard from which one can establish a rational argument that evaluates behavior according to that standard. It's all selfish rhetoric and emotional pleading. That's all that is available under the atheistic premise. For the theist, however, there is a very important reason to rationally argue and debate about what is moral, since under theism moral/immoral behaviors have necessary consequences: true concern for those who are behaving immorally. Arguments from the perspective of moral relativism = selfish attempts to persuade others to act in a way that provides comfort or advantage to the person making the argument. At least arguments from the theistic perspective, where morality describes an objective good (or purpose), with necessary consequences, can be reflective of genuine concern for others. Moral relativists shouldn't throw stones at others who, in their mind, defend genocide, because under moral relativism, genocide is as intrinsically moral an act as anything else. Their outrage belies the fact that their own premise necessarily leads to accepting genocide as a perfectly (subjective) moral act.William J Murray
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
05:35 AM
5
05
35
AM
PDT
F/N: Trevors and Abel's FSC vs OSC vs RSC is of course closely related to the FSCI and CSI concepts.kairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
05:29 AM
5
05
29
AM
PDT
Quite interesting!kairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
05:19 AM
5
05
19
AM
PDT
kf, you may like this flowchart:
What is your worldview? http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/305395_10150372517471777_589666776_8856893_627593100_n.jpg
bornagain77
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
05:10 AM
5
05
10
AM
PDT
A good effort by the indefatigable BA77, thanks!kairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
04:39 AM
4
04
39
AM
PDT
PPPS: Those who want to see why the log reduced, simplified form of Dembski's Chi metric [CSI in the form FSCI, with particular reference to digitally coded, algorithmically functionally specific complex information as appears in DNA] is valid, meaningful and useful (including, with specific cases, in biological contexts) may wish to look here.kairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
04:37 AM
4
04
37
AM
PDT
PPS: As for Jello's highlighting the "crime" of linking to educational information that provides details that are not needed for the main argument but will be useful for those who want to learn, that sneering attitude in absence of cogent addressing of issues speaks for itself, to its utter discredit. (Let me add: similarly, classic quotes from key figures, from Plato to Newton, on to Paley [notice his self-replicating watch discussion that simply does not appear in the usual dismissals of his watch argument], Darwin [just think about his worldview agenda as revealed in his free thinker letter to Marx's son-in-law], Dawkins, Lewontin and Johnson, etc, also serve to focus the issues clearly. That the very fact of quoting such -- accurately and in context with onward links to sources -- is held against me is revealing about the want of seriousness we are dealing with. In the case of Plato, it is plain that materialism -- evolutionary materialism driven by chance and necessity, in fact -- has been on the table for over 2,000 years, and has been found wanting from then to now. Indeed, it is worth adding to what is in the OP, the point that Plato's refutation pivots on a cosmological design inference, in a stunning piece of Bible-thumping. NOT. That is design thought is simply not rooted in the same soil as Creationism. So, bringing facts like this to bear is highly relevant, and it is telling that this pivotal passage in Plato is simply not well known or seriously and commonly discussed.)kairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
04:33 AM
4
04
33
AM
PDT
PS: When dealing with evolutionary materialists, who -- on long track record -- find a difficulty with simple straightforward reading, emphasis is a help to the willing, and exposes the neglect of duty to read with due care and attention on the part of the unwilling. In short, it fulfills a valid educational purpose. That -- as we saw above -- it is met with ridicule by those who would rather sneer at an emphasis than seriously address the issues thereby highlighted cogently, is utterly telling.kairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
04:30 AM
4
04
30
AM
PDT
Jello: You have resorted to Alinskyite, ridicule-laced talking point diatribes (&, cf here on Dr Kellogg's distractive side-issue) rather than serious discussion of serious issues. That resort to caricaturing and attacking the man is uncivil, and the want of addressing of issues on the merits bespeaks an unacknowledged intellectual deficit faced by evolutionary materialism. Kindly, get serious and sober, or else get out of this thread. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
04:21 AM
4
04
21
AM
PDT
Of related note as to exposing the materialistic/atheistic worldview which is suffocating honest scientific inquiry:
Time Flies: Darwin on Trial Twenty Years Later - trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P5epDCcAqyQ Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) - video lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw
bornagain77
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
04:11 AM
4
04
11
AM
PDT
WJM: Well said. I trust that there will now be a serious examination of issues by thoughtful people. Much is at stake, far more than many realise. KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
04:04 AM
4
04
04
AM
PDT
F/N: In keeping with the educational focus for this thread, I clip the tipsheet on worldview analysis from the course notes for an introductory phil course: ____________ >> TIPSHEET ON DOING PHILOSOPHICAL ANALYSIS PRINCIPLE: Philosophy is based on analysis of worldviews using logic in light of the key hard questions and alternative answers - all of which bristle with difficulties. So in analysis, we need to see the underlying core worldview beliefs in an argument, then assess how they control the conclusions and action proposals made: do they make good sense? Then, we need to decide which alternative makes best sense in light of the comparative difficulties and the possible consequences of each option. I. START-POINT: THE KEY WORLDVIEW QUESTIONS As Nash points out: "a worldview is a set of beliefs about the important issues in life." So, we need to see what an argument claims, implies or assumes regarding: What, or Who, is ultimately real? [i.e. Metaphysics] How do/can we know and test/justify this? [i.e. Logic & Epistemology] How, then, should we live? [i.e. Ethics & Aesthetics] What's right/wrong with the world, and what should we do? [i.e. "loving and living by wisdom"] What are the key ideas and terms used in the worldview/argument? How does this fit with the major worldviews: e.g. theism, naturalism, pantheism, modernism, post-modernism? What are the key difficulties? What are the major alternatives to this view? What are their difficulties? In light of possible consequences and probabilities, which alternative is most prudent? II. PRACTICAL ARGUMENT CONCERNS Real arguments are intended to persuade us. That means that they will be wrapped in rhetorical strategies: (a) appeals to our emotions, (b) to allegedly credible authorities, (c ) to claimed facts and reasoning. So, in practical cases we should focus on: 1. De-spinning: (a) emotions -- are underlying perceptions and judgements accurate? (b) authorities -- are they expert, fair and accurate? (c ) "facts" and logic -- are claimed facts so and do they materially represent the truth? Are underlying assumptions sensible? Is the reasoning valid? Do conclusions make sense? 2. Limitations of Knowledge: When we accept something as "knowledge," we accept it as adequately justified and true, often on the testimony of an authority. So, always check "facts," underlying assumptions and authorities, at least on a sample basis. Much of our knowledge is by way of being "best explanations" to date, and so is inherently provisional and tied to points of view: what are the major alternative views and limitations? 3. Logic: Do conclusions follow from assumptions and "facts"? Does the argument assume things it should first have proved? Are generalizations from "facts" hasty/faulty? Do the assumptions, "facts" and implications contradict? (If so, could this be corrected?) Given the likely or possible risks on either side of a case, what conclusions should a prudent thinker draw? Who should we give the benefit of the doubt to? 4. Ethics & Action Proposals: What would happen if many people were to follow the path proposed? Would I feel that my rights were being violated if I were treated like this? (That is, the Golden Rule/CI helps us see the right or at least the lesser of evils.) Also, we should ask if a consensus on these issues is possible? Or at least, can a coalition with a critical mass to act effectively be formed? Where is it necessary to compromise and go with the lesser of evils? >> ___________ At a more basic level, some may benefit by first going through this short presentation on critical thinking. (Note in particular the discussion of science and limitations on its knowledge claims.) KFkairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
03:55 AM
3
03
55
AM
PDT
furthermore: Here is How neo-Darwinian evolution avoids falsification 'anamolus' genetic evidence:
A Primer on the Tree of Life - Casey Luskin - 2009 Excerpt: The truth is that common ancestry is merely an assumption that governs interpretation of the data, not an undeniable conclusion, and whenever data contradicts expectations of common descent, evolutionists resort to a variety of different ad hoc rationalizations to save common descent from being falsified. http://www.discovery.org/a/10651 How to Play the Gene Evolution Game - Casey Luskin - Feb. 2010 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/02/how_to_play_the_gene_evolution.html Pattern pluralism and the Tree of Life hypothesis - 2006 Excerpt: Hierarchical structure can always be imposed on or extracted from such data sets by algorithms designed to do so, but at its base the universal TOL rests on an unproven assumption about pattern that, given what we know about process, is unlikely to be broadly true. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/7/2043.abstract
Here is How neo-Darwinian evolution avoids falsification from the fossil record;
Seeing Ghosts in the Bushes (Part 2): How Is Common Descent Tested? - Paul Nelson - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: Fig. 6. Multiple possible ad hoc or auxiliary hypotheses are available to explain lack of congruence between the fossil record and cladistic predictions. These may be employed singly or in combination. Common descent (CD) is thus protected from observational challenge. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/02/seeing_ghosts_in_the_bushes_pa.html
This following article reveals how evolutionists avoid falsification from the biogeographical data of finding numerous and highly similar species in widely separated locations:
More Biogeographical Conundrums for Neo-Darwinism - March 2010 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/sea_monkeys_are_the_tip_of_the.html The Case of the Mysterious Hoatzin: Biogeography Fails Neo-Darwinism Again - Casey Luskin - November 5, 2011 Excerpt: If two similar species separated by thousands of kilometers across oceans cannot challenge common descent, what biogeographical data can? The way evolutionists treat it, there is virtually no biogeographical data that can challenge common descent even in principle. If that's the case, then how can biogeography be said to support common descent in the first place? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/the_case_of_the_mysterious_hoa052571.html
Whereas, contrary to neo-Darwinian ad Hoc rationalizations ID provides solide framework for making scientific predictions;
A Response to Questions from a Biology Teacher: How Do We Test Intelligent Design? - March 2010 Excerpt: Regarding testability, ID (Intelligent Design) makes the following testable predictions: (1) Natural structures will be found that contain many parts arranged in intricate patterns that perform a specific function (e.g. complex and specified information). (2) Forms containing large amounts of novel information will appear in the fossil record suddenly and without similar precursors. (3) Convergence will occur routinely. That is, genes and other functional parts will be re-used in different and unrelated organisms. (4) Much so-called “junk DNA” will turn out to perform valuable functions. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/a_response_to_questions_from_a.html A Positive, Testable Case for Intelligent Design - Casey Luskin - March 2011 - several examples of cited research http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/a_closer_look_at_one_scientist045311.html The Fossil Record and Falsifiable Predictions For ID - Casey Luskin - Audio http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-03-26T14_56_42-07_00
bornagain77
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
03:33 AM
3
03
33
AM
PDT
furthermore eigenstate, neo-Darwinism fully qualifies as a 'degenerate science', i.e. as a full fledged pseudoscience::
Science and Pseudoscience - Lakatos - audio http://richmedia.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/2002_LakatosScienceAndPseudoscience128.mp3
Everything Lakatos lays out for determining whether a paradigm is really a pseudoscience, which is in the process of being overthrown, has been fulfilled in neo-Darwinism: Here are a few notes I gathered using Lakatos criteria for seeing if neo-Darwinism is truly a pseudoscience (preceding 15 predictions omitted):
Falsification Of Neo-Darwinism by Quantum Entanglement/Information https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p8AQgqFqiRQwyaF8t1_CKTPQ9duN8FHU9-pV4oBDOVs/edit?hl=en_US Where’s the substantiating evidence for neo-Darwinism? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q-PBeQELzT4pkgxB2ZOxGxwv6ynOixfzqzsFlCJ9jrw/edit
Basic falsification criteria for Intelligent Design:
Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A The Universal Plausibility Metric (UPM) & Principle (UPP) – Abel – Dec. 2009 Excerpt: Mere possibility is not an adequate basis for asserting scientific plausibility. A precisely defined universal bound is needed beyond which the assertion of plausibility, particularly in life-origin models, can be considered operationally falsified. But can something so seemingly relative and subjective as plausibility ever be quantified? Amazingly, the answer is, “Yes.”,,, c?u = Universe = 10^13 reactions/sec X 10^17 secs X 10^78 atoms = 10^108 c?g = Galaxy = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^66 atoms = 10^96 c?s = Solar System = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^55 atoms = 10^85 c?e = Earth = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^40 atoms = 10^70 http://www.tbiomed.com/content/6/1/27 Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information – Abel, Trevors Excerpt: Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).,,, Testable hypotheses about FSC What testable empirical hypotheses can we make about FSC that might allow us to identify when FSC exists? In any of the following null hypotheses [137], demonstrating a single exception would allow falsification. We invite assistance in the falsification of any of the following null hypotheses: Null hypothesis #1 Stochastic ensembles of physical units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #2 Dynamically-ordered sequences of individual physical units (physicality patterned by natural law causation) cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #3 Statistically weighted means (e.g., increased availability of certain units in the polymerization environment) giving rise to patterned (compressible) sequences of units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #4 Computationally successful configurable switches cannot be set by chance, necessity, or any combination of the two, even over large periods of time. We repeat that a single incident of nontrivial algorithmic programming success achieved without selection for fitness at the decision-node programming level would falsify any of these null hypotheses. This renders each of these hypotheses scientifically testable. We offer the prediction that none of these four hypotheses will be falsified. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29 Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy – Andy McIntosh – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086 Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248
bornagain77
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
03:31 AM
3
03
31
AM
PDT
furthermore eigenstate, neo-Darwinism fully qualifies as a 'degenerate science', i.e. as a full fledged pseudoscience::
Science and Pseudoscience - Lakatos - audio http://richmedia.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/2002_LakatosScienceAndPseudoscience128.mp3
Everything Lakatos lays out for determining whether a paradigm is really a pseudoscience, which is in the process of being overthrown, has been fulfilled in neo-Darwinism: Here are a few notes I gathered using Lakatos criteria for seeing if neo-Darwinism is truly a pseudoscience (preceding 15 predictions omitted):
Falsification Of Neo-Darwinism by Quantum Entanglement/Information https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p8AQgqFqiRQwyaF8t1_CKTPQ9duN8FHU9-pV4oBDOVs/edit?hl=en_US Where’s the substantiating evidence for neo-Darwinism? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q-PBeQELzT4pkgxB2ZOxGxwv6ynOixfzqzsFlCJ9jrw/edit
Basic falsification criteria for Intelligent Design:
Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A The Universal Plausibility Metric (UPM) & Principle (UPP) – Abel – Dec. 2009 Excerpt: Mere possibility is not an adequate basis for asserting scientific plausibility. A precisely defined universal bound is needed beyond which the assertion of plausibility, particularly in life-origin models, can be considered operationally falsified. But can something so seemingly relative and subjective as plausibility ever be quantified? Amazingly, the answer is, “Yes.”,,, c?u = Universe = 10^13 reactions/sec X 10^17 secs X 10^78 atoms = 10^108 c?g = Galaxy = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^66 atoms = 10^96 c?s = Solar System = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^55 atoms = 10^85 c?e = Earth = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^40 atoms = 10^70 http://www.tbiomed.com/content/6/1/27 Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information – Abel, Trevors Excerpt: Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).,,, Testable hypotheses about FSC What testable empirical hypotheses can we make about FSC that might allow us to identify when FSC exists? In any of the following null hypotheses [137], demonstrating a single exception would allow falsification. We invite assistance in the falsification of any of the following null hypotheses: Null hypothesis #1 Stochastic ensembles of physical units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #2 Dynamically-ordered sequences of individual physical units (physicality patterned by natural law causation) cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #3 Statistically weighted means (e.g., increased availability of certain units in the polymerization environment) giving rise to patterned (compressible) sequences of units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #4 Computationally successful configurable switches cannot be set by chance, necessity, or any combination of the two, even over large periods of time. We repeat that a single incident of nontrivial algorithmic programming success achieved without selection for fitness at the decision-node programming level would falsify any of these null hypotheses. This renders each of these hypotheses scientifically testable. We offer the prediction that none of these four hypotheses will be falsified. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29 Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy – Andy McIntosh – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086 Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248
Here is How neo-Darwinian evolution avoids falsification 'anamolus' genetic evidence:
A Primer on the Tree of Life - Casey Luskin - 2009 Excerpt: The truth is that common ancestry is merely an assumption that governs interpretation of the data, not an undeniable conclusion, and whenever data contradicts expectations of common descent, evolutionists resort to a variety of different ad hoc rationalizations to save common descent from being falsified. http://www.discovery.org/a/10651 How to Play the Gene Evolution Game - Casey Luskin - Feb. 2010 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/02/how_to_play_the_gene_evolution.html Pattern pluralism and the Tree of Life hypothesis - 2006 Excerpt: Hierarchical structure can always be imposed on or extracted from such data sets by algorithms designed to do so, but at its base the universal TOL rests on an unproven assumption about pattern that, given what we know about process, is unlikely to be broadly true. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/7/2043.abstract
bornagain77
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
03:29 AM
3
03
29
AM
PDT
Onlookers: The sock-puppet "Jello" is simply repeating here the ongoing tactic at Anti Evo, of snipping points out of context to create and ridicule a strawman of the case I have presented at UD and at the IOSE draft course site. His failure to address matters substantially and cogently on the merits is its own refutation, and since this seems to be the the emerging standard move of the movement of evolutionary materialistic atheists in that circle, it should be plain that they resort to ridicule because they have no substance. That utter want of substance can be seen even in response to direct challenge. At least, Eigenstate has tried to lay out talking points, however flawed they may be. At minimum, such can be corrected where they go off the rails. Jello, either you come forward with some serious substantial responses, or kindly leave this thread. And BTW, hae ye the blood tae cry like that? Or, is that talking point fakery, too. Bydand! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
03:21 AM
3
03
21
AM
PDT
Eigenstate: Let me first thank you for taking time to comment. I am afraid, however, that I cannot give an out of context slice or two offered up for rhetorical carving. The issues being addressed are tightly integrated and need to be seen together as an educational whole; which is why I went for long -- magazine feature length -- copy rather than short column length copy. It is also why I have given onward links. Also, talking points like "Atheism is a religion in the same way not-collecting-stamps is a hobby," joined to distractive attempts to manipulate moral sensibilites by taking issues and texts of the Bible out of context [cf here and here onward where I have dealt with Mr Dawkins' recent attempt to duck public accountability over worldview responsibilities by using the distractor of falsely accusing Mr Craig of support for genocide -- this is not on topic for this thread, and will be gavelled], are no substitute for thinking through an issue whole. I suggest you may want to work your way through the worldview analysis tipsheet here. As for "disingenuous," did you consult a dictionary before posting? Note, AmHD:
dis·in·gen·u·ous adj. 1. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: "an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator, who ... exemplified ... the most disagreeable traits of his time" (David Cannadine).
If you tossed this off without thought, that is bad enough. If you deliberately meant the above this is an unwarranted attack to the man, which should not be repeated. Now, I will note on points: a: I have never said that the keystone proposition at the heart of Atheism as such -- denial of the reality of God -- is a worldview, but that it is an integral part of a worldview, in our day most often "scientific" atheism is part of evolutionary materialism dressed up in a lab coat. Which is what I specifically addressed, as it is the relevant form. b: So, the attempt to suggest otherwise was an improper resort to strawman caricature. c: Contrary to your attempted denial, the resort to tendentious redefinition is often used in exactly the way I noted. d: And indeed, we can see that you do the same, for you do not address the worldview frame that embeds "scientific" [evolutionary materialist] atheism that the post does, but use the question-begging attempted redefinition of atheism as a distraction. Nowhere do you actually cogently address the matters placed on the table, including Smart's definition that appears in the Stanford Enc of phil, a deservedly famous reference work. e: The attempt to cast my accurate citations and comments on Lewontin's infamous remarks remind me of the lawyer who spent a great deal of time and rhetoric explaining the difference between his client's invention and someone else's patent. Then, the other attorney simply stood up, put the two on display and said, simply LOOK, and see the facts. End of case. f: A priori imposed materialism, disguised as a "methodological" necessity, is a worldview level begging of the question that as I said above [and have discussed in the onward linked], takes the heart out of science: unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) empirical evidence-led search for the truth about our world based on observation, experiment, analysis, and reasoned discussion. g: You have also neatly snipped one point from Plato out of its context of a discussion of materialism on the ground in his day [with implications onwards down to today]. As a matter of fact, on the ground from Plato's day to this, materialist atheism has repeatedly even reliably been connected to undermining of moral consensus through injection of a radical relativism, with damaging consequences. Indeed, 100 million ghosts from the century just past moan out a reminder on just this point. And, as usual, you have studiously ignored other relevant links and references that specifically include Dawkins and Provine in haste to make dismissive talking points. Plato's point is still valid: evolutionary materialists tend strongly to radical relativism. h: The worldview connexion (addressed in onward linked discussions that you would have been well advised to consult) is this: unless a given worldview has a foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT, it ends up having no basis for ought. i: Evolutionary materialism, as a worldview, is about a narrative that pivots on blindly evolving matter, from hydrogen to humans, under forces of chance and necessity acting on matter and energy in space-time domains. There is in that no purpose, thus no reference point for good, or evil. There is no basis on such a view for ought, beyond subjective preferences and perceptions. Period. j: Consequently, on such a view our moral sensibilities are subject to the manipulation and imposition of the powerful: might and manipulation make "right." Which is exactly what Mr Dawkins set out to do with Craig and with those who would not pause to first ask, what did he mean when he said "The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . ." And that is also an excellent illustration of why such evolutionary materialism is irretrievably morally bankrupt. k: If you would take time to read from here on (note in particular the section on good and evil, in context), in contrast to your talking-point level turnabout caricature of Biblical theism, you will find how such a worldview can be grounded on an IS that can bear the weight of ought: the inherently good Creator God, who is the ground of being, essentially good as to character and the maker of creation. (The response to the misdirected Euthyphro dilemma -- is was devised as an objection to the finite and capricious gods of the long since defunct classical paganism, who precisely are NOT the ground of being nor are they inherently good as to character -- may be examined here.) In short, it seems that the need for the above post has been underscored by the initial objecting responses. It seems, too, that the want of a basic exposure to worldviews analysis in our education in general, and the want of a good survey of relevant epistemological issues in science education in particular, are coming home to roost. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
03:12 AM
3
03
12
AM
PDT
Atheism is a religion in the same way not-collecting-stamps is a hobby. ..... The “highest might is right” is not entailed by moral relativism.
Statements like this reveal the real problem for many atheists/materialist/determinists/physicalists; they have no significant understanding of philosophical warrant and consequences when it comes to worldviews. Collecting stamps/not collecting stamps is not a grounding worldview about the way one sees existential reality. Whether one collects stamps or not doesn't inform one's view of the universe, deeply affect how one understands the concepts of morality, purpose, and existential meaning. The choice of being a theist or an atheist, however, necessarily entails these broad, significant, and meaningful consequences. Unlike collecting stamps, atheism is a deeply significant and consequential worldview that cannot be passed off erroneously as a "lack of" a positive worldview commitment. The statement that subjective morality doesn't necessarily lead to might makes right is just that - an ill considered statement made from someone who hasn't really thought it out. Because they are moral relativists, and because they don't believe in "might makes right", they think moral relativism does not necessarily entail "might makes right". And so, as illustrated by KF, so much of the atheist/materialist worldview is question-begged and consequence-ignored, hidden behind simple, undefended, unwarranted, unexamined statements. What they fail to ask themselves are all of the necessary questions about by what grounds are they empowered to pick a not might-makes-right moral system? What is the principle that allows them to object to the moral views and behavior of others, if morality refers to subjective goals and goods? The only principle they have, under subjectivism, is their own personal might (mental, physical, etc.) to do so. If society believes otherwise, then collectively they have the moral right to simply round up and execute those who disagree if they so wish. If the Israelites have the power to commit genocide, then under moral relativism, it is by definition as moral as any other act committed by the individual holding their act to be moral. I think that many of these atheists/materialists are sincere, and are sincerely outraged at what they consider to be past abuses of religion and moral imposition by might of the church, but in their angry zeal to deny and ridicule, they have thrown the necessary baby out with the dirty bathwater. They are left without any foundational principle or premise that can organize their beliefs about science, self, morality, logic, the universe and existence into a rationally consistent, justified, and coherent belief system. They are content to simply not examine their own worldviews back to premise and forward to conclusion, and throw ridicule and dismissal at those who are willing to do so and who challenge them to do so. KF points this issue out repeatedly, challenging them to justify their positions via logic back to premise and forward to conclusion. Instead of accepting the challenge and working to explain how their worldview is founded upon sound premise and reaches rational conclusions, they are content to sit on the sideline and meet such challenges with ridicule and denial. What KF has posted here is a challenge, on several fronts, for those who are willing to defend their views via sufficient warrant (premise) and towards rationally consistent and coherent conclusion. Any atheists/materialist up to the task?William J Murray
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
03:12 AM
3
03
12
AM
PDT
eigenstate you state in point 3:
The eschewing of the supernatural is a methodological necessity, not a philosophical a priori. If you abandon that restriction, even just a little bit as a methodological matter, practical scientific epistemology gets annihilated, and science gets busted down to being theology.
Ignoring the fact that 'science' itself, which you have placed so much faith in, is not even 'epistemologically' possible in the atheistic/materialistic worldview, let's primarily focus on some of the irrationality that forcing materialistic answers prior to investigation has led science to:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." William Shakespeare - Hamlet
The artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy onto the scientific method has blinded many scientists to the inference of God as a rational explanation in these questions of origins. In fact, the scientific method, by itself, makes absolutely no predictions as to what the best explanation will be prior to investigation in these question of origins. In the beginning of a investigation all answers are equally valid to the scientific method. Yet scientists have grown accustomed through the years to the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy onto the scientific method. That is to say by limiting the answers one may conclude to only materialistic ones, the scientific method has been very effective at solving many puzzles very quickly. This imposition of the materialistic philosophy onto the scientific method has indeed led to many breakthroughs of technology which would not have been possible had the phenomena been presumed to be solely the work of a miracle. This imposition of materialism onto the scientific method is usually called methodological naturalism, methodological materialism, or scientific materialism etc... Yet today, due to the impressive success of methodological naturalism in our everyday lives, many scientists are unable to separate this artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy from the scientific method in this completely different question of origins. In fact, I've heard a atheist actually say, "Science is materialism." Yet science clearly is not materialism. Materialism is a philosophy which makes the dogmatic assertion that only blind material processes generated everything around us, including ourselves. Materialism is thus in direct opposition to Theism which holds that God purposely created us in His image. Furthermore science, or more particularly the scientific method, in reality, only cares to relentlessly pursue the truth and could care less if the answer is a materialistic one or not. This is especially true in these questions of origins, since we are indeed questioning the materialistic philosophy itself. i.e. We are asking the scientific method to answer this very specific question, "Did God create us or did blind material processes create us?" When we realize this is the actual question we are seeking an answer to within the scientific method, then of course it is readily apparent we cannot impose strict materialistic answers onto the scientific method prior to investigation. No less than leading "New Atheist" Richard Dawkins agrees:
"The presence of a creative deity in the universe is clearly a scientific hypothesis. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a more momentous hypothesis in all of science." Richard Dawkins
In fact when looking at the evidence in this light we find out many interesting things which scientists, who have been blinded by the philosophy of materialism, miss. This is because the materialistic and Theistic philosophy make, and have made, several natural contradictory predictions about what evidence we will find. These predictions, and the evidence we have found, can be tested against one another within the scientific method.
Steps of the Scientific Method http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml
For a quick overview, here are a few:
1. Materialism predicted an eternal universe, Theism predicted a created universe. - Big Bang points to a creation event. - 2. Materialism predicted time had an infinite past, Theism predicted time had a creation. - Time was created in the Big Bang. - 3. Materialism predicted space has always existed, Theism predicted space had a creation (Psalm 89:12) - Space was created in the Big Bang. - 4. Materialism predicted that material has always existed, Theism predicted 'material' was created. - 'Material' was created in the Big Bang. 5. Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. - 6. Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 - 2 Timothy 1:9)- 7. Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind - Every transcendent universal constant scientists can measure is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. - 8. Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe - Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe. - 9. Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made - ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a "biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.". - 10. Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth - The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 11. Materialism predicted a very simple first life form which accidentally came from "a warm little pond". Theism predicted God created life - The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 12. Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11) - We find evidence for complex photo-synthetic life in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth - 13. Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life to be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse life to appear abruptly in the seas in God's fifth day of creation. - The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short "geologic resolution time" in the Cambrian seas. - 14. Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record - Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record, then rapid diversity within the group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 15. Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth - Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. - references for each of the 15 predictions: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ubha8aFKlJiljnuCa98QqLihFWFwZ_nnUNhEC6m6Cys
As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy, from the scientific method, and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. - In fact it is even very good at pointing us to Christianity:
Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Plausible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US
bornagain77
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
03:10 AM
3
03
10
AM
PDT
Bydand!Jello
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
02:55 AM
2
02
55
AM
PDT
It looks like Jello's the latest Darwinist to have a nervous breakdown due to the continual rise of Intelligent Design. Well done, kairosfocus. You're a one-man-Darwinist-wrecking-machine.Jammer
November 13, 2011
November
11
Nov
13
13
2011
01:05 AM
1
01
05
AM
PDT
I see you missed this bit of news Irrational Reasons for Refusing to Consider Design. Perhaps it's time you removed your permanently lodged head from the Darwinian sandbox and start thinking for yourself. The linked article above does not necessarily demand design; however if you really can't grasp that this along with continued layer upon layer of complex, integrated systems operating according to principles that every engineer knows warrants at the least a design inference, then you truly represent everything Johnson referred to:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter.
In other words, you're not a scientific scholar, but a philosopher.Stu7
November 12, 2011
November
11
Nov
12
12
2011
11:51 PM
11
11
51
PM
PDT
An empty meaningless post - Check! Ad hominem diatribe - Check! Saying absolutely nothing about anything - Check! Well done.Stu7
November 12, 2011
November
11
Nov
12
12
2011
11:30 PM
11
11
30
PM
PDT
No, KF's points bear ignoring. (Or maybe giggling at.) Kairosfocus has, for reasons best left to the administrators of UD, taken up residence here and is using the opportunity to preach his interminably prolix sermons to the eight remaining people in the ID movement. Kairosfocus is the last person on Earth to demand anything of anyone. His hilarious attempts to grapple with Dawkins' Weasel was a classic example of just how far he was prepared to go to avoid admitting he had made a mistake; his dfCSI nonsense exists nowhere in the world outside his head, his invisible website and Uncommon Descent. KF is a figure of fun, and this latest bullet-pointed diatribe is just one more piece of evidence that Uncommon Descent will allow anyone to post anything to maintain the pretence that intelligent design is anything other than dead.Jello
November 12, 2011
November
11
Nov
12
12
2011
11:20 PM
11
11
20
PM
PDT
Jello, KF's points bear repeating because they've rarely been addressed by any of the "true believer" atheist materialists who come here; just skimmed over and dismissed as is exemplified by your reply as well as eigenstate's "atheism isn't a worldview" because "not collecting stamps isn't a hobby" reply.CannuckianYankee
November 12, 2011
November
11
Nov
12
12
2011
10:38 PM
10
10
38
PM
PDT
kairosfocus, 1. Consider breaking down your posts into manageable bits. This is either by design or accident a disingenuous post in that doesn't even make a passing effort to consolidate a manageable number of points for consideration. It isn't even so much being overlong, but being all over the map, wandering hither and yon on complex, diverse subjects. 2. Atheism isn't a worldview. Naturalism may be a worldview you want to assess/attack, or maybe you'd prefer to go after humanism or materialism, or other "isms" that are holistic frameworks through which one develops an interpretive grid for the extramental world. I forget who said it, but here's a useful nugget to keep in mind: Atheism is a religion in the same way not-collecting-stamps is a hobby. That is not a matter of shirking any burden of proof or dealing with difficulties. Every atheist has an interpretive grid that bears defense, scrutiny, analysis. It's just not "atheism". Atheism is an "umbrella class" that aggregates many diverse worldviews, which are mutually incompatible in some ways, but which are all unified by a shared lack of belief of in God or gods. I realize that may be frustrating, but if you want to "go after" a world view, or a positive belief framework, you'll have to go past the "umbrella" of atheism and deal with the various species of atheist-compatible worldviews that exist as defensible in positive terms. 3. You are way out to lunch on the meaning and significance of Lewontin's "divine foot in the door" comments. That's not particularly surprising or problematic, but I'm just noting that you've been presented with more than ample and substantive corrections on this, more than once now. This is not a demand that you agree with Lewontin, but rather that you be corrigible with respect to simply UNDERSTANDING Lewontin. The eschewing of the supernatural is a methodologicalnecessity, not a philosophical a priori. If you abandon that restriction, even just a little bit as a methodological matter, practical scientific epistemology gets annihilated, and science gets busted down to being theology. A mark of skill and integrity in philosophical debate is demonstrating both awareness and understanding of the various positions in play. This is a fair expectation up front, but in your case, you refuse to go there, even when you are politely and cogently corrected about your ignorance on this issue. 4. The "highest might is right" is not entailed by moral relativism. Neither is amorality. "Highest might is right" is a concept conservative Christianity needs to own, as this underpins the voluntarism like that advanced by William Lane Craig's defense of the Old Testament genocides, discussed here recently, IIRC. If God created the universe and controls it all, then he can do as he pleases, and is just in doing so, whatever that may mean, goes the Christian rationale. If you are really troubled by the concept of "highest might is right", you need to look at the folks wearing the same Jesus jersey as you.eigenstate
November 12, 2011
November
11
Nov
12
12
2011
10:17 PM
10
10
17
PM
PDT
Dawkins - Check! Lewontin - Check! dfCSIOMGWTF - Check! Bullet Points ad infinitum - Check! Red Fonts for EMPHASIS - Check! Links to his own website - Check! Plato - Check! Perhaps you should nail this oft repeated rap-sheet to the door of the NCSE, for truly it appears you can do no other. ENDJello
November 12, 2011
November
11
Nov
12
12
2011
10:13 PM
10
10
13
PM
PDT
1 5 6 7

Leave a Reply