Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

On “seeing” — credibly knowing about — the invisible in science

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Yesterday, following up from recent comment exchanges, I posted about the electron as an example of how we routinely deal with the invisible in science, and on how inductive — believe it or not that is now a fighting word — inference on sign is vital to science.

This morning, I followed up on a remark by Joe in the UB thread that extends the same theme.

I think this should be headlined, so let me clip (quickly, as I do have a draft to follow up on):

____________

>>I have a draft speech to follow up on, but could not resist this:

[Joe:] the [Darwinist/Evolutionary Materialist] response is always “Eons of time cannot be reproduced in a lab and all we have is eons of time to hide behind. Oh and a bunch of promissory notes”

This brings to front-centre, the issue of the unobservable in science I headlined yesterday with the classic Tek 465 CRO as an illustration of how we infer to the unobserved in science per inductive warrant. (Which surfaces the pivotal importance of that syllabus of 18 Q’s.)

Electronics is built on the electron, which is accepted as very real, even a fact of day to day life, though unobserved or even unobservable. We simply see too many convergent effects that cry out for the electron as common cause.

Oil Drop Expt: the drops take charges that are multiples of e, warranting inference to a “lump” of negative charge, the electron

 

We are as a result morally certain of its reality, though what we actually see are things like little drops of oil in a Millikan oil drop exercise, drifting up/down as we try to balance the voltage against gravity. (I well recall my own frustrations working with a lab set for replicating that classic exercise!)

Or, we may see curlicues of bubbles in a bubble chamber or droplets of cloud in a cloud chamber, or of course the trace on a CRO’s phosphor screen.

The inferred, convergent, best explanation is the electron.

Never yet directly seen, and probably never will be, but an accepted fact of life from its effects.

Let’s clip someone politically incorrect on that sort of thinking:

Jn 3:3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]”

4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him . . . 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”[h][NIV, cf here on in context and here on in context for a 101 look at some of the warranting context]

Uh huh, believing in the invisible can make a lot of good sense, to those willing to be docile — teachable — before the evidence. No promises for the willfully defiant who will resort to selectively hyperskeptical objections and cling to any absurdity to protect a cherished materialism proudly flying the false flag of science. (And denizens of TSZ et al, that is an exercise of the right of fair comment on responsible investigation.)

In science, too, we often need to assess the reality of the unobserved.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, where that addresses something like origins, that is done by inference to best current explanation in light of traces of the unobserved and cause-effect patterns and characteristic signs we can and do observe in the present. Where, if we know that per repeated experiment a certain causal factor reliably leaves certain characteristic signs, then it is reasonable to infer from sign to associated cause per that body of investigation. I have long used the case of inferring deer from deer tracks as an illustrative case on the logic involved.

What happens, as was already discussed, is that the living cell is full of FSCO/I, which is a characteristic trace of IDOW — intelligently directed organising work, i.e. design. So, if we see FSCO/I, we are properly entitled to infer to design as cause, given what we observe and what we can see on the needle in the haystack analysis.

The verbal stunts and rhetorical gymnastics we have seen for years from those disinclined to accept so simple a pattern of thought, and the number of spurious counter-examples put forth tell us that the inference is obviously cogent and well warranted.

Why it is controversial is not because it is well warranted, but because it is cutting clean across an entrenched ideology that likes to dress up in a lab coat and loves to fly the flag of science, evolutionary materialism, for descriptive convenience. (And yes, TSZ, that is just a descriptive term, and accurate one.)

So, it is time for some serious rethinking that requires leaving the materialist cave of shadow shows and clearing he mind from the poisonous influences of the smoke of burning ad hominem laced strawmen.>>

_____________

So, in science, we can learn to see the invisible, and to have well-warranted high confidence in its reality. Which is of course another way of saying, knowledge, in the weaker sense: well warranted, credibly true belief.

So, we see here inference to best current explanation on observed evidence giving us scientific knowledge regarding what we did not actually see.

So, it is quite reasonable to infer in science to the invisible but warranted, on empirical traces and an observed pattern of characteristic signs.

All that we design thinkers are asking for, then is willingness to be consistent on the observation that FSCO/I is observed to be a characteristic sign of IDOW as key causal factor. Design, in one word.

Is that too much to ask? END

Comments
'For example, is there something about “Since proposed solutions are essentially guesses about what is out there in reality” that do you not understand? “We do not derive theories from observations” refers to the specific contents that theory proposes. Theories are tested by observations, not derived from them.' No. No. No. No. No, C.R. Successful, scientific hypotheses, to the degree that they are ground-breaking, will always be the culmination of innumerable observations, some perhaps of a quite generalised nature, perhaps going back many years and/or not in areas of experience readily identifiable as germane. Observation has to be joined up, like joined-up writing. One would not, on the face of it, suspect that Einstein's pondering on a man sliding down a sunbeam had been the culmination of intensive, discursive excogitation, were it not that he would have been inspired to reflect on it within the generally adult context of physics, upon which he was given to unrelentingly excogitate, like a dog with a bone. Thus, hypotheses should be far more works of erudition than mundane speculation - than 'guesses'. Hypotheses may indeed partake of elements that are not observable in the sense of measurable, as per Einstein's aesthetic criterion when choosing his hypotheses. However, Einstein could see that his insight was being misunderstood. With the typically clumsy thinking so manifest in scientism, many must have all but abandoned the actual science, in their quest for 'elegance'! Thus, if successful, hypotheses at any esoteric level will be arrived at intuitively, when the multiple strands of past sensual observations, possibly including some of a quite generalised nature, marry with a knowledge and understanding, also, already acquired, which will provide the larger encompassing context of the scientist's world-view in relation to the topic at hand. Indeed, successful hypotheses are not guesses, not wild stabs, but informed, indeed, indeed, to the layman, very esoterically informed, conjectures. Occasionally, some of our current scientific luminaries embark upon an intellectual 'walkabout', however, such as our multiverse proponents. I'll say no more. Sometimes, it may be a very, very, simple, but epochally successful conjecture, when a man such as Einstein possesses an intellectual integrity matched by a supreme self-confidence, and an understanding of the hegemony of herd-thinking in Academe. However, that latter quality cannot be a vapid, presumptuous arrogance - in consequence of which great scientists, such as the atheist, Laplace, have lost their minds precisely as a result of that. Compare Einstein's 'humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind,' with the atheist myrmidons' 'promissory note'!Axel
September 16, 2012
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Mung: Who or what determines what is not consistent with our theory? Is this a problem with your theory? If so, this seems to be a red flag. Theories should be specifically constructed so they conflict with as many competing theories as possible when criticized. Otherwise, we cannot make progress. You want to make progress, right? Mung: I think I see what’s going on here. You’re attacking modern science,... If I was attacking modern science, I would be objecting to its conclusions as a whole. Can you point out where I've done that? Mung: .... and KF is saying this is the way it’s done, deal with it. What KF is saying is there is an alternative, non-deductive thing called inductive inference, which is valid by its own supposed standard. I agree that's what he is *saying*. However there are two problems with his position. First, is the missing step I refereed to. KF has yet to explain what this inductive inference consists of, how it's supposed to be applied, etc. Second, we have a conflict: inductive inference says we can get theories from data, while deductive inference says we cannot. If we take both the deducted conclusion and the contradictory inducted conclusion, then plug them into a deductive argument, this causes even deduction to fail spectacularly because, using deduction, we can derive any statement from X and NOT-x. So, KF is saying science "does it" using a type of inference he has yet to define or explain, which does not solve any problems and would require us to abandon deductive logic. (which *is* well defined and can be used to solve problems in practice) Just saying "that's the way it's done" is not the same as actually explaining how it works, in practice.critical rationalist
September 16, 2012
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CR:
When we take a critical approach, we look at what evidence is inconsistent with our theories, not consistent. Being consistent with a theory does not get us anywhere because there are an infinite number of un-conceived theories that would also be consistent with the evidence.
Who or what determines what is not consistent with our theory? Take Darwinism, for example. Or Origin of Life theories. I think I see what's going on here. You're attacking modern science, and KF is saying this is the way it's done, deal with it.Mung
September 16, 2012
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UB: Do you equivocate when the hard-to-vary explanation for the origin of iterative code is intelligence? CR: A: No, I do not. As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, “That’s just what some abstract designer with no limitations must have wanted” does not represent a long, hard to vary chain of independent explanations. UB: I did not ask you about what “some abstract designer with no limitations” would have wanted, nor did I ask how you know what “some abstract designer with no limitations” would have wanted. I asked if you equivocate from the value you place on “hard-to-vary explanations” when the only known origin of iterative code is intelligence. And you equivocated. CR: However, I’d only be equivocating if I was an inductivist. Electrons were not “known” to exist, let alone do anything. Nor can we directly observe them doing anything today. We accept electrons because they are our best, hard to vary explanations for specific phenomena. UB: I asked if you equivocate from the value you place on “hard-to-vary explanations” when the only known origin of iterative code is intelligence. And you equivocated.
Being "the only known", as in observed, would be an argument from ignorance, even if it were the case. If you mean intelligence as an explanation, then how is it hard to vary? Please be specific. Nor do I see the difference between an "abstract intelligence with no defined limitations" and an "abstract designer with no limitations". Neither have much in the way of informational content to be found in error. For example…
…even the statement that “all swans are white”, which is found in conflict with observations and therefore false as a whole, is better than merely “all swans have a color” as the former has more ways to be found wrong. All theories usually contains errors to some degree. In my example, the error is “all”, but it would bring us closer to the truth than merely “all swans have a color” because it encompasses the theory that there are *white* swans. Popper called this property Verisimilitude.
For example, it’s logically possible one or more designers intentionally went out of its way to obscure its role in designing biological organisms. Even if this was the case, Darwinism would still be the best explanation because it encompasses the theory that the biosphere appears *as if* adaptations of organisms were created by genetic variation that was random to any specific problem to solve and natural selection. IOW, the theory encompasses a specific means by which the designer set out to obscure it’s role, which could also be found false as compared to some other specific means of obscuring its role. As such, this too represents a better theory than merely an abstract designer with no defined limitations.
Furthermore, some abstract Intelligence without any defined limitations is insufficient to explain DNA. For example, a nonmaterial intelligence that cannot effect our material world could not manifest it. And an Intelligence would need the knowledge necessary to actually implement it, the knowledge that the resulting code would reproduce itself with finite variations, how to repair it, how to encode data into that format, etc. What is the source of this knowledge?
if P then Q Q, so P
is a fallacy.
If P then Q Not Q Therefore, not P.
Is not. Mere intelligence does not stick it's neck out in a way that allows us to make progress via this valid form of deduction. It's as if you think the biosphere was created in a way that makes a theory of biological complexity impossible. As such, you refuse to reformulate this intelligence in a way that allows us to make progress. However, this would be like suggesting atoms were created in such a way that atomic theory is impossible or that objects move in such a way that makes a theory of their movement impossible. Why is the biosphere any different?
No, its the point where I once again point out that you contradict yourself. Our guesses abou what is “out there in reality” are based solely on observation. If your point is that the human ability to think is separate from the world, then you’ve added nothing to the conversation.
Is it? Please see my above quote to KF. The distinction is the role that observations play is an important one. Again, it seems you are ignoring clarifications as if the use of induction is "obvious". As such, any distinctions must not actually add up to anything that diverges from it.critical rationalist
September 16, 2012
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KF: Start from the problem that ever since Newton in Opticks, Query 31, 1704, your “inductivist” is a made up strawman, not the real opponent. Substituting "true" for "probable" doesn't' solve the problem of induction. Specifically, if past observations do not imply anything about future observations, they no more imply probability than truth. When we take a critical approach, we look at what evidence is inconsistent with our theories, not consistent. Being consistent with a theory does not get us anywhere because there are an infinite number of un-conceived theories that would also be consistent with the evidence. So, how do you "induce" one theory? Arbitrarily? According to your biases or intuition? What specific step does induction instruct us to employ? This is the missing step which induction has yet to address, which is missing in your Opticks quote as well.critical rationalist
September 16, 2012
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kf, you may appreciate this following video:
An Interview With Stephen Meyer and Chuck Missler - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC667GIrldQ
bornagain77
September 16, 2012
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CR: You are now trying the mirror logic trick, which is beginning to confirm my concerns as already stated. Not, a good sign. In addition, it is you who have denied the possibility of a probability estimate arising from observational studies. Moral certainty is or embeds such. And BTW, error bars for a quantity, common in science, are often 3-sigma estimates, or in certain cases 1-sigma estimates. Those are associated with probabilities. In the case of Milikan's electron charge estimate, the +/- 0.5% of given value range was in effect a 3-sigma range. I see you also think that by repeating verbiage about hard to vary explanations, you can avoid the import of WHY such would be hard to vary. Namely, warrant on best explanation per factual adequacy, coherence and simplicity. So, in conclusion, you are now insistently saying that which was adequately corrected, in the teeth of a pretty concrete counter-example, the confirmation of the reality of the electron, its charge and its mass per observations and measurements by Milikan that materially contributed to his Nobel Prize. In short, you are proving yourself closed to the disconfirming import of observations, which have assigned to your favoured meta-explanations a probability near zero. KFkairosfocus
September 15, 2012
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KF: It seems that you want to have your cake and eat it, repeatedly caricaturing the views of those you object to. You've repeatedly suggested that observations can make a theory more probable. As such, this is not a characterization. Also, I wrote:
We seem to agree observations cannot be used to [confirm] theories. However, you do seem think that observations can make a theory more probable. But this assumption is highly parochial, as it doesn’t take into account the different kinds of unknowability.
Your previous post indicated just that. Are you denying that you hold this view? KF: Until you can show us that you can fairly summarise the views you object to, you are failing to meet the first requirement of reasonable dialogue. I posted two different comparison of Critical Rationalism and Inductivism which did just this. Since you have yet to respond to it, I'll post them here again. KF: Seemingly, you do not have sufficient respect to actually listen and seek to fairly present what others have to say. What you've said is that observations positively support theories. You might think that inductivism is necessary to make progress, but that would be a form of justificationsm, which is impossible. Your accusation of disrespect suggests you do not recognize your conception of human knowledge as an idea that would be subject to criticism. Of course, feel free to formulate and present a "principle of induction" that actually works in practice. All I've seen so far is that, "everyone knows that's how science works since Newton", which doesn't actually address Popper's criticism. Nor have you directly responded to the idea that we derive theories from observations. Should I take this as acceptance or rejection? Your arguments seem to imply this is the case, but you can easily clear this up with an explicit response. For example, here's an expanded version of Bertrand Russell's story of the farmer and the chicken, which illustrates the above issue. A flock of anthropomorphic chickens has observed a farmer who fed them every day like clockwork since they were chicks. They extrapolate these observations to conclude the farmer will continue to feed them. One day the farmer starts feeding them even more corn that usual. This observation further reinforces their conclusion they will continue to be fed. However, not long after, the farmer puts them in cages and sends them off to slaughter. In other words, mere observations alone are inadequate to justify conclusions. This is the problem of induction. However, if we're not careful we'll miss (or knowingly accept) a more fundamental misconception illustrated in this story. Specifically, that it's even possible extrapolate observations without first placing them in a explanatory framework. Before these chickens could have induced a false prediction, they must first had in mind a false explanatory framework of the farmers behavior, such as thinking he had benevolent feelings towards chickens. However, had the chickens guessed a different explanation, such as the farmer was fattening them up for slaughter, they would have extrapolated observations of his actions differently. In other words, how we form predictions depends on our underlying explanation. According to the benevolent-farmer theory, observations of being fed even more corn suggested the chickens were more likely to continue being fed, while the fattening-up theory suggested this same observation was an omen of imminent slaughter. So, again, unless you can explain we can extrapolate observations without first putting them into an explanatory framework, then theories are not derived from observations. KF: Similarly, by shifting terms to “hard to vary” you have ducked facing the crucial point: electrons were accepted as real, as supported by empirical evidence and related analysis, as a best explanation. I've ducked nothing. Electrons are hard to vary explanations for the phenomena in question in the same sense that good designs are hard to vary without effecting their ability to serve a purpose less well. We can say the same about microscopes, even thought we can observe them. In both cases, this is the criteria I'm referring to. How do you explain our relatively recent, rapid increase in the growth of knowledge? What change have we adopted that made the difference?critical rationalist
September 15, 2012
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However, I’d only be equivocating if I was an inductivist.
You equivocated when you replaced your value on "hard-to-vary explanations" (with regard to our universal common experience that intelligence is the source of iterative code) with a strawman about what you think a designer would or would not "want".
Electrons were not “known” to exist...
My comment didn't have anything to do with unseen electrons. It had to do with the universal observation that iterative code results from intelligence.
Is this the point where you, as the inductivist, stop asking serious questions and ignoring clarifications? For example, is there something about “Since proposed solutions are essentially guesses about what is out there in reality” that do you not understand?
No, its the point where I once again point out that you contradict yourself. Our guesses abou what is "out there in reality" are based solely on observation. If your point is that the human ability to think is separate from the world, then you've added nothing to the conversation. Being boring is forgivable as long as you add something to the conversation.Upright BiPed
September 15, 2012
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CR: Is it not logically possible an abstract designer with no defined limitations is interceding to directly cause phenomena explained by electrons for some inexplicable reason using some inexplicable means? Mung: Ah, that would explain some recent posts by some people here at UD. CR: Is that a “No”, in that it is no logically impossible? Or is it a “yes” in that it is logicially possible? Me: That is an admission that it is logically possible, I suppose, that there is a worm crawling around in your brain secreting some chemical which has the effect of causing you to post the stuff that you post here at UD. Shall we take that possibility into account when reading your posts and deciding whether it's even worth it to respond? CR:
You seem to keep projecting your conception of knowledge on me, as if you simply cannot imagine there being any alternative.
Pot. Kettle. Black. According to you, there is only one way of knowing.Mung
September 15, 2012
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Unfortunately, according to CR's reasoning, unless we can say where the electron got its charge, we've added nothing to the explanation by concluding that "an electron" exists to supply the necessary charge. Thus, the whole field of "electronics" is predicated upon an assumed, magical being - the electron - that just "happens" to provide the charge necessary for the observed action of the phenomenon in question.William J Murray
September 15, 2012
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CR: As a first step to responsible discussion, I suggest that you should discuss the oil drop experiment from a critical rationalist perspective, including the charging of the drops [by friction or X-rays], the measured charges on the drops, the highest common factor analysis, and the deduced value of unit charge. Relate this as well to other investigations that put the mass and charge as well as the charge: mass ratio into relevant ball-parks. Then show us how the conclusions reached do not amount to warrant per inference to best current empirically grounded explanation, i.e. knowledge understood as well-warranted, credibly true belief. Also, kindly show why you hold that the relevant processes of thought 100 years ago (and similar reasoning today) do not constitute cases of inductive scientific reasoning on the understanding that inductive arguments provide support for but not demonstrative proof of, their conclusions. (Cf here for a good short discussion in the IEP.) GEM of TKI PS: To gain an idea of how this pivotal experiment played out 100 years ago, cf the video summary here. The historical discussion here and here will help, as may the lab prep paper here. PPS: Kindly note this clip from Milikan, regarding a table that summarises results of a four hour observation of a now immortalised oil drop as its charge varied:
"In this table 4.917 is merely a number obtained...from the change in speed due to the capture of ions and one which is proportional in this experiment to the ionic charge. The column headed 4.917 x n contains simply the whole series of exact multiples of this number from 1 to 18 . . . during the time of observation, about four hours, this drop carried all possible multiples of the elementary charge from 4 to 17, save only 15. . . . . Such tables as these--and scores of them could be given--place beyond all question the view that an electrical charge wherever it is found, whether on an insulator or conductor, whether in electrolytes or in metals, has a definite granular structure, that it consists of an exact number of specks of electricity (electrons) all exactly alike, which in static phenomena are scattered over the surface of the charged body and in current phenomena are drifting along the conductor. Instead of giving up, as Maxwell thought we should some day do, the 'provisional hypothesis of molecular charges,' we find ourselves obliged to make all our interpretations of electrical phenomena, metallic as well as electrolytic, in terms of it."9 [Millikan, Robert A., The Electron, (Chicago, The University of Chicago press, 1963), pp. 74-75.]
PPPS: Having already adequately answered your latest red herring led away to a strawman on suggested invisible designers [as in Russell and Plato], at 8 above and in the onward linked, I will not further take up that side-track.kairosfocus
September 15, 2012
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CR: It seems that you want to have your cake and eat it, repeatedly caricaturing the views of those you object to. I have warned you on this repeatedly, including in the context that beyond a certain point, you are indulging willful continuing misrepresentation in the teeth of correction. There is a short, sharp word for that, that I do not want to be forced to use. It is time to call on you to stop before you irretrievably cross the threshold. That, of speaking with willful disregard for the duty of care to be true and fair, hoping to profit from misrepresentation being perceived as accurate, fairly presented truth. Until you can show us that you can fairly summarise the views you object to, you are failing to meet the first requirement of reasonable dialogue. Seemingly, you do not have sufficient respect to actually listen and seek to fairly present what others have to say. Beyond this point, unless you change this pattern, you are asking to be presented as a poster child of irresponsible, irrational and disrespectful, or worse, conduct. I ask you to cease and desist from your path, amend your behaviour and act responsibly in discussion. Forthwith. GEM of TKI PS: As an example, kindly notice what I pointed out: by using the products of electronics design, you implicitly accept that the relevant field -- which by its very name is based on accepting a best explanation argument and evidence pointing to something that has never been directly observed -- has grounded a field of reliable knowledge by this means. Similarly, by shifting terms to "hard to vary" you have ducked facing the crucial point: electrons were accepted as real, as supported by empirical evidence and related analysis, as a best explanation. In particular, the Millikan oil drop experiment and other classical investigations led to this and -- contrary to your bland denial -- provide warrant to moral certainty of the reality of electrons. Electrons are a case in point of how inference to best, empirically anchored explanation, provides good warrant that something (the reality of electrons) is credibly true. That is, of knowledge. The identical pattern of reasoning, per much explanation (cf. here and here on, etc) provides warrant that per inference on well warranted sign, FSCO/I is an index of design as key causal factor. In the case of evolutionary materialism imposed as ideology on origins science, that fails the question-begging test and shifts from inference to best empirically based explanation to best MATERIALIST explanation. Where also, the lack of observational warrant for Darwinian mechanisims innovating body plan level structures is a failure to show sufficient cause. Similarly, there are some troubling signs in the geochronology, including even the vaunted convergent isochrons. and more. The pattern of reasoning is clear, the capacity of inference to best current, empirically grounded explanation -- which is simply not a mechanical process, but a creative and comparative judgement on evidence across live options often leading to well warranted albeit defeasible conclusions -- to provide warrant in some cases to moral certainty is established, and the difference between a best explanation and the problem of question-begging a prioris and want of demonstrated adequacy of claimed causes is shown. You need to respond to such evidence in its own terms, and cease from strawman misrepresentations of the views and persons you have argued with, as a matter of basic respect and reasonableness.kairosfocus
September 14, 2012
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CR: Is it not logically possible an abstract designer with no defined limitations is interceding to directly cause phenomena explained by electrons for some inexplicable reason using some inexplicable means? Mung: Ah, that would explain some recent posts by some people here at UD. Is that a "No", in that it is no logically impossible? Or is it a "yes" in that it is logicially possible?critical rationalist
September 14, 2012
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UB, You seem to keep projecting your conception of knowledge on me, as if you simply cannot imagine there being any alternative. For example, UB: I asked if you equivocate from the value you place on “hard-to-vary explanations” when the only known origin of iterative code is intelligence. And you equivocated. However, I'd only be equivocating if I was an inductivist. Electrons were not "known" to exist, let alone do anything. Nor can we directly observe them doing anything today. We accept electrons because they are our best, hard to vary explanations for specific phenomena. While It's logically possible that our DNA was the result of *some* intelligence,"That's just what some abstract intelligence with no defined limitations must have wanted" is a bad explanation for the same reasons. Furthermore, the "code" you are appealing to was known to be created to serve a specific purpose. While DNA does serve a purpose, it's not clear that it was intentionally created to serve that purpose. And if it was, what is the origin of the knowledge this intelligence used to design DNA to serve that specific purpose?
CR: “We cannot derive theories from observations”. UB: From what did you derive that theory? CR: Given that I’ve made distinctions regarding this at length elsewhere, it’s unclear if this is even a serious question. UB: In your answer, you point to an explanation which states that you: a) notice a problem, then b) propose a solution to that problem. Your quoted text refers to this “solution” as a “theory”. Your quote therefore contradicts what you say. You derive your theories from observations, unless you notice problems without observing them.
Is this the point where you, as the inductivist, stop asking serious questions and ignoring clarifications? For example, is there something about "Since proposed solutions are essentially guesses about what is out there in reality" that do you not understand? "We do not derive theories from observations" refers to the specific contents that theory proposes. Theories are tested by observations, not derived from them.critical rationalist
September 14, 2012
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KF: PS: It is also quite reasonable to infer to design as process on observing the characteristic traces left by designers, such as FSCO/I. Merely saying some designer “just was” complete with the knowledge of how to build biological adaptations serves no explanatory purpose. This is because one could more economically state organism’s “just appeared”, complete with the knowledge of how to build biological adaptations. In other words, the current crop of ID does not actually explain how the knowledge, as found in the genome, was created. It merely pushes the problem into some unexplainable realm. It's a bad explanation because it doesn't actually solve the problem is claims to address. Now, you might think that knowledge has always existed, and therefore need not be explained, but that assumption makes your argument parochial.critical rationalist
September 14, 2012
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CR: However, we’ve seen designers. Is it not logically possible an abstract designer with no defined limitations is interceding to directly cause phenomena explained by electrons for some inexplicable reason using some inexplicable means? KF: The fact that you are using an electronics based computer is proof in action that you believe in the effectiveness of the electronics that rests — as the name suggests — on the electrons. First, should I take that a "yes" or a "no"? I can't tell. Second, my grandmother uses electronics, yet, as far as she is concerned, they might as well be magic. It's unclear why using "electronics" necessarily implies that electrons are the best explanation. Third, I accept electrons as the explanation for computers and other phenomena because they represent the longest, hardest to vary explanation which has withstood the most criticism. In no sense do I think repeated observations make "electrons" more probable or positively support them. KF: As to your attempted Lord Russell 5-minute old cosmos type argument, I give the usual answer: any argument that implies that our general senses about the world are grossly inaccurate, faces the burden of proof. One, it cannot meet as it is self-referentially incoherent; relying on the implicit reliability of what it seeks to undermine. Which is a strawman of my question. Again, If "an abstract designer with no limitations", really meets the definition of an explanation and it really is *the* best explanation for the biosphere, then why isn't "an abstract designer with no limitations" the best explanation for everything else? Why can we be specific in regards to atoms or moving objects, but not biological adaptations? Why is the biosphere any different? It's as if you think "design" is some kind of irreducible primitive that cannot be explained. KF: That, unfortunately, is abundantly shown regarding the imposition of a priori materialism on science under the false flag of reasonable methodological constraint and the snide accusation that a theistic world is a chaos not a cosmos. Cf my notes regarding Lewontin’s errors on this, here. Theism assumes there is some inexplicable realm in which inexplicable beings reach in to effect us. However…
… if we really do reside in a finite bubble of explicably, which exists in an island in a sea of of inexplicability, the inside of this bubble cannot be explicable either. This is because the inside is supposedly dependent what occurs in this inexplicable realm. Any assumption that the world is inexplicable leads to bad explanations. That is, no theory about what exists beyond this bubble can be any better than “Zeus rules” there. And, given the dependency above (this realm supposedly effects us), this also means there can be no better expiation that “Zeus rules” inside this bubble as well. In other words, our everyday experience in this bubble would only appear explicable if we carefully refrain from asking specific questions. Note this bares a strong resemblance to a pre-scientific perspective with its distinction between an Earth designed for human beings and a heaven that is beyond human comprehension.
Yet, you seem to think that our everyday experience is explicable. This is a contradiction.critical rationalist
September 14, 2012
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Is it not logically possible an abstract designer with no defined limitations is interceding to directly cause phenomena explained by electrons for some inexplicable reason using some inexplicable means?
Ah, that would explain some recent posts by some people here at UD.Mung
September 14, 2012
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Don't ya just hate that. :)Upright BiPed
September 14, 2012
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lol. oops. wrong thread =p Guess I'll have another drink of that bartender!Mung
September 14, 2012
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Onlooker, Here's a definition better suited to your particular situation:
mung bucket n. A bucket used under a beer tap to catch foam and pour-offs. Can get very nasty over time, and can be used on demanding jerks at the bar as a source of a "special pour".
Mung
September 14, 2012
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CR,
Q: Do you equivocate when the hard-to-vary explanation for the origin of iterative code is intelligence? A: No, I do not. As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, “That’s just what some abstract designer with no limitations must have wanted” does not represent a long, hard to vary chain of independent explanations.
I did not ask you about what “some abstract designer with no limitations” would have wanted, nor did I ask how you know what “some abstract designer with no limitations” would have wanted. I asked if you equivocate from the value you place on “hard-to-vary explanations” when the only known origin of iterative code is intelligence. And you equivocated.
“We cannot derive theories from observations”. Q: From what did you derive that theory? A: Given that I’ve made distinctions regarding this at length elsewhere, it’s unclear if this is even a serious question.
In your answer, you point to an explanation which states that you: a) notice a problem, then b) propose a solution to that problem. Your quoted text refers to this "solution" as a "theory". Your quote therefore contradicts what you say. You derive your theories from observations, unless you notice problems without observing them.Upright BiPed
September 14, 2012
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This is the logical argument that preceded our discoveries from breakthroughs in Quantum Mechanics:
Aquinas and the First Way (First Mover): Aquinas recognized that for motion to take place, there had to be something that interacts with it to cause it to move. For a ball to move, for example, it must be struck by another object, for example, the foot of a child kicking it. The ball has the potential to move, but that potential cannot reach its actuality until something else acts upon it. Aquinas argued then, that as the original object that was moved needed to have something act upon it to move, so too does the second object have something act upon it. The boy swings his leg, which moves his foot which in turn moves the ball. And the chain continues backwards from there. He also recognized that without a first mover, the chain of cause and effect must, by definition, go eternally back. Since that idea is absurd to the ordered mind and is not consistent with observable evidence, there must be a first mover upon which nothing is needed to act to cause him to move. This, in turn must be an infinite being outside of creation and hence is God. http://preacherwin.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/aquinas-five-ways-proofs-for-the-existence-of-god-from-general-revelation/ Jerry Coyne and Aquinas' First Way - Michael Egnor September 9, 2009 Excerpt: ‘The First Mover is necessary for change occurring at each moment. The argument is unrelated to the Big Bang; as noted, Aquinas assumed (for the sake of the First Way) that there was no temporal beginning of the universe. The argument works irrespective of whether or not the universe had a beginning in time. The only way to explain change in the natural world is to posit the existence of an unmoved First Mover. Aquinas goes on (in Summa Contra Gentiles and Summa Theologica) to draw out in meticulous detail the necessary attributes of the First Mover, and he demonstrates that it is logically necessary that the First Mover have many attributes (simplicity, omnipotence, etc) that are traditionally attributed to God as understood in the Judeo-Christian tradition. The Argument from Motion is rigorous, and I have merely summarized its salient points, but it is straightforward once the premises are established. It is a very powerful argument.’ - Michael Egnor – Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first024951.html Acts 17:28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
I find this centuries old philosophical/logical argument, for the necessity of a ‘First Mover’ accounting for change occurring at each moment, to be validated by quantum mechanics. The ‘first mover’ of Aquinas’s argument is warranted to be necessary from quantum mechanics since the possibility for the universe to be considered a self-sustaining ‘closed loop’ of cause and effect, as materialism had held, was removed with the refutation of the ‘hidden variable’ argument, as first postulated by Einstein, in quantum entanglement experiments. i.e. a non-local, beyond space and time, cause is now known to be necessary to explain the continued existence of material particle within space/time. Theism has always held that a non-local, beyond space and time, cause sustains the continued existence of reality. Some of the high points of evidence are as follows:
Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show – July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm Electron entanglement near a superconductor and bell inequalities Excerpt: The two electrons of these pairs have entangled spin and orbital degrees of freedom.,,, We formulate Bell-type inequalities in terms of current-current cross-correlations associated with contacts with varying magnetization orientations. We find maximal violation (as in photons) when a superconductor is the particle source. http://www.springerlink.com/content/e2830ur84h856618/?MUD=MP
This proof for 'non-locality' was further solidified in 2010:
Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism – November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html
And this proof for non-locality was further extended in 2011 by Anton Zeilinger, and team, to falsify local realism (reductive materialism) without even using quantum entanglement to do it, i.e. this experiment extended ‘non-local’ realism to the particles themselves, thus extending the empirical evidence to be directly in line with what was posited in Aquinas’s ‘First Mover’ argument:
‘Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm Falsification of Local Realism without using Quantum Entanglement – Anton Zeilinger http://vimeo.com/34168474
a further breakthrough in 2011 was here, showing that quantum information is ‘conserved’:
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time – March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html
All in all, 2010 & 2011 were very bad years for the materialistic philosophy!bornagain77
September 14, 2012
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CR you state:
Is it not logically possible an abstract designer with no defined limitations is interceding to directly cause phenomena explained by electrons for some inexplicable reason using some inexplicable means?
You're right. It is logically possible for a 'abstract' anything to have causal power. But God is not, nor was ever claimed to be, 'abstract'. In fact Theism claims God is a 'necessary Being' who 'upholds' all creation:
Hebrews 1:3: He upholds all things by the word of his power Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."
To put it more plainly CR, the Theistic claim for all of reality is this;
‘God is the ultimate existence which grounds all of reality!’
To which you may honestly ask:
'And you know this how?'
Before the breakthroughs of modern science in Big Bang Cosmology and Quantum Mechanics, we ‘knew’ this fact from logic; Here are the logical arguments, that I know of, that preceded the empirical evidence for Theism from the Big Bang and Quantum Mechanics;
Not Understanding Nothing – A review of A Universe from Nothing – Edward Feser - June 2012 Excerpt: A critic might reasonably question the arguments for a divine first cause of the cosmos. But to ask “What caused God?” misses the whole reason classical philosophers thought his existence necessary in the first place. So when physicist Lawrence Krauss begins his new book by suggesting that to ask “Who created the creator?” suffices to dispatch traditional philosophical theology, we know it isn’t going to end well. ,,, ,,, But Krauss simply can’t see the “difference between arguing in favor of an eternally existing creator versus an eternally existing universe without one.” The difference, as the reader of Aristotle or Aquinas knows, is that the universe changes while the unmoved mover does not, or, as the Neoplatonist can tell you, that the universe is made up of parts while its source is absolutely one; or, as Leibniz could tell you, that the universe is contingent and God absolutely necessary. There is thus a principled reason for regarding God rather than the universe as the terminus of explanation. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/05/not-understanding-nothing The Creation Of The Universe (Kalam Cosmological Argument)- Lee Strobel – William Lane Craig – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3993987/ William Lane Craig – Hilbert’s Hotel – The Absurdity Of An Infinite Regress Of ‘Things’ – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994011/ Time Cannot Be Infinite Into The Past – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg0pdUvQdi4 Aquinas and the Second Way: The second approach that Aquinas mentioned is similar to the first, but focuses on cause and effect rather than on potential motion being converted into actual motion. Every effect must have a cause, if you eliminate the cause you eliminate the effect. Once again, since an infinite series of cause and effect is irrational, the principle posits that there must be an original cause that in itself does not need a cause: hence God. Again, this does not posit the God of the Bible, or even a good and benevolent God for that matter, it only posits that a God exists who is the cause of all things and who is the effect of nothing. http://preacherwin.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/aquinas-five-ways-proofs-for-the-existence-of-god-from-general-revelation/
Here is the empirical evidence which verified those logical arguments for the ‘First Cause’ or for the ‘Uncaused Cause’:
The Scientific Evidence For The Big Bang – Michael Strauss PhD. – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323668 Evidence Supporting the Big Bang http://www.astronomynotes.com/cosmolgy/s7.htm Beyond The Big Bang: William Lane Craig Templeton Foundation Lecture (HQ) 1/6 – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esqGaLSWgNc “Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past.” (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) – 1970 “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” - Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Boston - (Paper was delivered at Stephen Hawking’s 70th birthday party) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/vilenkins-verdict-all-the-evidence-we-have-says-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning/
bornagain77
September 14, 2012
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CR: “What is scarce are deep, hard to vary explanations for that evidence.” UB: You’ve made this comment before. Do you equivocate when the hard-to-vary explanation for the origin of iterative code is intelligence? No, I do not. As I've pointed out elsewhere, "That's just what some abstract designer with no limitations must have wanted" does not represent a long, hard to vary chain of independent explanations. Are you suggesting it is? Or perhaps you think it's a strawman? CR: [W]e cannot derive theories from observations. UB: From what did you derive that theory? Given that I've made distinctions regarding this at length elsewhere, it's unclear if this is even a serious question.
Critical Rationalism - We notice a problem. - We propose solutions to the problem - Since proposed solutions are essentially guesses about what is out there in reality, we… - Criticize the theory for internal consistency. Solutions that are internally inconsistent are discarded. - Criticize the theory by taking it seriously, in that we assume it’s true in reality and that all (empirical) observations should conform to them, *for the purpose of rational criticism*. “All observations” reflects all of our current, best solutions to other problems, which are themselves conjecture that have survived criticism. - This process continues until only one proposed solution is left, rather than positively supporting one particular theory. - The process starts all over again we notice another problem, such as new observations that conflict with our remaining proposed solution.
Critical rationalism itself follows the same process. As a universal explanation for the growth of knowledge, it started out as conjecture, which we then tested by observations. It was not derived from observations either. How do you explain our relatively recent, rapid increase in the creation of knowledge?critical rationalist
September 14, 2012
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[Joe:]the [Darwinist/Evolutionary Materialist] response is always “Eons of time cannot be reproduced in a lab and all we have is eons of time to hide behind. Oh and a bunch of promissory notes” CR: This assumes it is possible to mechanically derive knowledge [how to replicate the OOL, etc.] from experience. But this simply isn’t the case. FK: [--> No-one has said or implied this, kindly stop setting up and knocking over strawmen, even after you have been corrected. KF] Does this not imply science should be able to replicate the OOL? If not, then why is the absence of such replication relevant? Which of our current, best explanations suggest we *should* be able to replicate it?critical rationalist
September 14, 2012
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PS: It is also quite reasonable to infer to design as process on observing the characteristic traces left by designers, such as FSCO/I.kairosfocus
September 14, 2012
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CR: The fact that you are using an electronics based computer is proof in action that you believe in the effectiveness of the electronics that rests -- as the name suggests -- on the electrons. As to your attempted Lord Russell 5-minute old cosmos type argument, I give the usual answer: any argument that implies that our general senses about the world are grossly inaccurate, faces the burden of proof. One, it cannot meet as it is self-referentially incoherent; relying on the implicit reliability of what it seeks to undermine. On a more restricted basis, the Plato's Cave manipulated world, if you can substantiate the shadow-show games, then you have refuted the manipulative agenda. That, unfortunately, is abundantly shown regarding the imposition of a priori materialism on science under the false flag of reasonable methodological constraint and the snide accusation that a theistic world is a chaos not a cosmos. Cf my notes regarding Lewontin's errors on this, here. KFkairosfocus
September 14, 2012
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KF, Despite the fact that we've never seen an electron, you seem to think electrons are good explanation for phenomena. However, we've seen designers. Is it not logically possible an abstract designer with no defined limitations is interceding to directly cause phenomena explained by electrons for some inexplicable reason using some inexplicable means?critical rationalist
September 14, 2012
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"What is scarce are deep, hard to vary explanations for that evidence."
You've made this comment before. Do you equivocate when the hard-to-vary explanation for the origin of iterative code is intelligence?
[W]e cannot derive theories from observations.
From what did you derive that theory?Upright BiPed
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