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Stephen Jay Gould’s Contempt for the John Templeton Foundation

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Yesterday Charles Harper issued a press release taking to task Daniel Golden for his piece in the Wall Street Journal in which he suggested that the John Templeton Foundation has been a patron or sponsor of Intelligent Design (for the press release, go here). In that press release, Harper ritualistically underscored just how much money and effort the John Templeton Foundation has spent on critiquing ID. In particular, he noted that

for almost a decade the John Templeton Foundation has been the major supporter of a substantial program at the headquarters of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), one of the chief focus activities of which has been informing the public of the weakness of the ID position on modern evolutionary biology. (see: http://www.aaas.org/spp/dser) This program was founded under the advice and guidance of the prominent evolutionary biologist Francisco Ayala when he was President of the AAAS, and was also supported by Stephen Jay Gould under his Presidency.

For Harper to cite Gould as an ally here is ironic since Gould had nothing but contempt for the John Templeton Foundation. In his book Rocks of Ages, Gould attacks what he calls the “syncretic school,” which embraces “the oldest fallacy of all as a central premise: the claim that science and religion should fuse to one big, happy family, or rather one big pod of peas, where the facts of science reinforce and validate the precepts of religion, and where God shows his hand (and mind) in the workings of nature.” (212)

Worse yet, as far as Gould is concerned, “the spectacular growth and success of science has turned the tables for modern versions of syncretism. Now the conclusions of science must be accepted a priori, and religious interpretations must be finessed and adjusted to match unimpeachable results from the magisterium of natural knowledge! The Big Bang happened, and we must now find God at this tumultuous origin.” (213)

And who is the worst offender here? Who, more than anyone, is responsible for this resurgence in syncretizing science and religion? Read on:

In the summer of 1998, a deluge of media hype enveloped the syncretist position, as though some startingly new and persuasive argument had been formulated, or some equally exciting and transforming discovery had been made. In fact, absolutely nothing of intellectual novelty had been added, as the same bad argments surfaced into a glare of publicity because the J. M. Templeton Foundation, established by its fabulously wealthy eponym to advance the syncretist program under the guise of more general and catholic (small c) discussion about science and religion, garnered a splash of media attention by spending 1.4 million bucks to hold a conference in Berkeley on “science and the spiritual quest.” (214)

Question: Would it help the Templeton Foundation to accept Intelligent Design if a Harvard professor as famous as Stephen Jay Gould could be found to support it?

Follow-up Question: If an equally prominent ID proponent treated the Templeton Foundation with Gould’s contempt, would the Templeton Foundation nonetheless fawn on him and invoke his name to counter less respectable elements in the science-religion dialogue?

Comments
im starting to see the type of bigotry that is all thru sites like PT.jboze3131
November 17, 2005
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Ahh...and thus the root of the problem The only way that ID can get anywhere is to allow itself to be attached to the Religious folks. Well...that makes life interesting...now you have to deal with it. Standard Science avoided all of this by being naturalistic...but now ID has made it's bed. BTW...if this seems rude...ive been drinking..im somewhat aggravated that ID seems to drift between a philosophy on existence and a strict scientific principle. You know what is funny...and i want to hear an IDist say this Apes and humans are the same "type". I will buy that dogs cannot turn into cats...but only if you admit that humans are just a type of ape. We almost certainly came from apes..and we are only an adaptation of the ape.... :::Crickets chirp:::: Oops...bad idea to say thispuckSR
November 17, 2005
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sharpguy "So, it seems as though the “mind” continues to exist as it was while young while the biological “body suit” withers away into the earth as fossil fuels!!" It exists as it was while young probably because it formed in a young body. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.DaveScot
November 17, 2005
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btw. im sure that dembski, as a christian, would disagree with you and your views. im fairly sure he believes in what you call paranormal psuedoscience. which confuses me even more!jboze3131
November 17, 2005
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paranormal psuedoscience like disembodied consciousness lol. so davescot, youve figured out consciousness then? you need to go public, because youre due for an award. neuroscientists still cannot explain it, but you have written it off as psuedoscience. and now youre comparing christians to people with ouija boards. love those social skills! this from the same guy who told me to screw off because i questioned why his role model was jesus yet he doesnt believe the bible, and the bible is his source material for who christ was!jboze3131
November 17, 2005
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"Yeah right. And just because things always fall toward the center of the earth doesn't mean the earth is attracting them. There could be angels pushing things in that direction. Spare me." ------------------ this coming from the guy who thinks a system of nueral networks ala the matrix is the designer. sounds like a totally insane idea to me (and id assume most others here), but i dont see people commenting for you to spare them the absurd notions. then again, with that comment, youre basically mocking every christian as a buffoon- 'spare me [with those silly ideas from the bible]'. besdies, considering scientists still cant explain counsciousness, when you rule out an option from the start (such as dualism), youre doing the very same thing the anti-IDers are doing.jboze3131
November 17, 2005
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Actually Bombadill I think there is a need to get cheeky. ID is attacked by being lumped in with paranormal psuedoscience like disembodied consciousness. You aren't helping matters by treating it seriously here. Maybe you should ask your Ouija board about it next, if you haven't already.DaveScot
November 17, 2005
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dougmoran, Nice post... Well said... I agree that one can think of "the price of a good or it's value as a charactaristic of the overall design of the economic system in which it exists." Thus the economic system starts out as sort of an uninitialized look-up table, where item A -> value X, and item B -> value Y, and so on. The users of this economic system then flush out the variables through their interactions, so that the look-up table becomes item A -> $2, item B -> $100, and so on. However, I diagree with you when you say: "All they are doing is changing the contents of the information box, not creating new information at all." Changing the contents of the information box *is* creating new information. I think would agree that a set of scrambled letters like "OFTNRIMIOAN" does not carry information, while a simple rearrangement of the letters (which I equate to "changing the contents of the information box," we're not adding any new letters) to form "INFORMATION" does. Furthermore, we can see how this information is specified. If the value of item A goes up, it reflects the status of item in environoment outside the economic look-up table. So, by setting all these variables within the look-up table, a mapping of the environment is created within the economy. The values these variables take *reflects* the outside world. Additionally, we can see the increase in information reflected in the entropy of the system. From Wikipedia: "In thermodynamics and statistical mechanics, the thermodynamic entropy (or simply the entropy) S is a measure of the internal microscopic disorder present in a system; or, equivalently, the number of possible internal configurations available to the system." So, as we go from a look-up table where items A-Z can have any values under the sun to a look-up table with clearly defined values, we see a decrease in the amount of entropy in the system. From Principia Cybernetica: "H [entropy] reaches its maximum value if all states are equiprobable, that is, if we have no indication whatsoever to assume that one state is more probable than another state." This is exactly what we have in our uninitialized look-up table. "We define constraint as that which reduces uncertainty, that is, the difference between maximal and actual uncertainty. This difference can also be interpreted in a different way, as information, and historically H was introduced by Shannon as a measure of the capacity for information transmission of a communication channel." So, the decrease in the entropy from the maximal initial state of the economy to the working state of the economy represents an increase in information according to Shannon information theory.cambion
November 17, 2005
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"Yeah right. And just because things always fall toward the center of the earth doesn't mean the earth is attracting them. There could be angels pushing things in that direction. Spare me." No need to get cheeky, DaveScot. I'm just discussing this issue and trying to understand it better myself.Bombadill
November 17, 2005
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Re discussion of soul and mind, someone who has done some hard thinking on the matter, eminent philosopher of the mind Jaegwon Kim, has moved from a strict materialist view to a form of dualism (you can check this out in his latest book 'physicalism or something near enough'). Others who have also moved from a strict materialist view are Terry Horgan and stephen White. It seems from those in the know there has been a notable shift away from a belief that consciousness can merely be reduced down and explained by our physical makeup.petro
November 17, 2005
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RE: "If we have a soul, and that soul does exhibit some control over our minds, then why do people behave in such an opposite way to their previous nature?" Easy explanation: frustration. The physical limitations of age cause us to become frustrated. Frustration breeds all types of other emotions and behaviors. It's already been scientifically proven that, unless affected by some brain related disease, the elderly preserve their "youthful" mental capacities. It's just much more difficult to communicate at an elderly age. So, it seems as though the "mind" continues to exist as it was while young while the biological "body suit" withers away into the earth as fossil fuels!!mtgcsharpguy
November 17, 2005
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"but this does not necessarily indicate that the physical aparatus is the source of consciousness" Yeah right. And just because things always fall toward the center of the earth doesn't mean the earth is attracting them. There could be angels pushing things in that direction. Spare me.DaveScot
November 17, 2005
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I've heard someone refer to the brain as hardware and the spirit as software. Regardless, yes God created us as physical beings with a spiritual dimension. So trying to find a clear distinction between what happens in the mental realm due to the brain vs. other stuff is intriguing, but whatever.geoffrobinson
November 17, 2005
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Bombadill: The term "dead" has never been clearly defined. In fact, many times during your "living" you will meet seperate criteria for "death". I am aware of several incidents of "near-death" experiences, however, I was under the impression that almost every case of "near-death" experience used the lack of a pulse to determine death. There probably is a case of someone actually becoming "brain-dead", and the recovering, but I am not aware of it. My question to you would be in regards to how damage to the brain can effect the actions and thoughts of a person. Many people in old age become mean-spirited and cruel, while in their younger years they were kind people. If we have a soul, and that soul does exhibit some control over our minds, then why do people behave in such an opposite way to their previous nature? I am going to assume that this particular group of people reject the idea that genetics has any influence over behavior. I do have to ask a question though, why do you all constantly refer to Evolution as a totally random process. While the input to Evolution would be considered to be random, the output seems to be far less random. Wouldnt a closer analogy of the Evolutionary system be a radio?puckSR
November 17, 2005
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Cambion, Yes, yes. I see where you're headed now. Thank you for your patience. First, I would question how rational the average person is about valuation. But let's table that one for now. :) Then the question is, I think, is the market price of a good or service "information" in the same way that assembly instructions for an airplane is "information"? Or are these different kinds of information that have distinct charactaristics? In some ways they are quite different, but it seems to me that in the end they are both the same, and both the result if an intelligent agent's design. In the case of the airplane, the connection seems obvious: engineers design the airplane and generate a set of specifications and assembly instructions. That seems clear, right? But is it not also true that an engineer could design an airplane that changes specifications in response to environmental conditions? An adaptive system, so to speak. That, too, would clearly be the result of designers intent. And if the airplane changed shape or speed or efficiency in response to some stimulous it's designer anticipated, you would not say that the change was the result of the airplane creating information about itself, would you? So the shape of the airplane is variable by design, right? It isn't creating new information, just changing the values of existing information that the designer, well, designed in from the beginning. In the case of an economic system, one could be designed in an infinite variety of forms and functions. You could design an economic system in which the value of every good and service is set by government edict. That economy would end up behaving in a certain way. Or you could design a silly economic process in which the value of goods and services are determined by the color of the hair of the purchaser. Or, perhaps more sensibly, you could design an economic process that allows valuations to vary depending on environmental factors, such as supply and demand. Bearing in mind, of course, that many governments have found ways to control things such as supply and demand in a variety of ways. In that sense, valuation is an adaptive feature of the design of the economic process. By design, it was intended to vary in response to a variety of forces. It could have been just as easy to hold the value static by design, in which case a different set of social and political environments would likely prevail as well. So I guess I analogize the price of a good or it's value as a charactaristic of the overall design of the economic system in which it exists. It is simply a part of the information making up the instructions for assembling the economic process and it is designed to be set by adaptation to the environment in which the process must operate. In other words, using a free market as an example, the system was designed such that each good and service would have a value, or price. The designer created the "variable" called "value" and doesn't really care what number gets put there as he designed it to be filled in by users of the process. So the rational agents interacting over the value of an object are working with a concept that pre-existed as a part of the original design of the economic system. All they are doing is changing the contents of the information box, not creating new information at all.dougmoran
November 17, 2005
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DaveScot, I think it comes down to how one interprets the evidence. Stimulating or damaging parts of the brain certainly affects consciousness, but this does not necessarily indicate that the physical aparatus is the source of consciousness. It may be that the brain simply channels consciousness. And I have cited scientific studies here, in another thread, which demonstrated that people, who were declared brain dead and later revived, related lucid conscious experiences that occured while they were dead. Could they have just thought they experienced those things while they were dead, but they really were experienced after being revived? Perhaps. Although the researchers seemed to confidently indicate that this was somehow ruled out as an option, along with oxygen deprivation. And as for the obituaries... again, this would just indicate physical death. Who's to say that there is not a spirit ("mind") which continues to exist. I've been doing some research on this in my copious spare time and I found it interesting that, the latest evidence has Neuroscientists very much divided. The latest research does not in any way necessitate that consciousness has it's source in the brain. Needless to say, I'm going to keep following this issue.Bombadill
November 17, 2005
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Brian The countless observations may be found in the obituaries. In every case consciousness could no longer be observed after the body associated with it died.DaveScot
November 17, 2005
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Pretty much every atheist denies anything exists beyond this universe. That's just my experience. There are arguments to be made once you allow for the immaterial world.geoffrobinson
November 17, 2005
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dougmoran, I think we are pretty close to the same page. I completely agree that the economic process (i.e. bring goods to the market...) was designed. However, the information *within* the economy (i.e. values of objects) most certainly was not. That information was created by market forces that were in turn created by the interactions of rational agents.cambion
November 17, 2005
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Cambion, Yes, I see your point. But then again, even bartering farmers have a process they've established. Meet at the square, find what you need, negotiate a trade, etc. It isn't terribly sophistocated, but it is a process and it is less chaotic (and less painful) than the process designed by Attila the Hun. So the point is... what? I guess that the economic process was still designed and agreed upon by society as the one they would use. Even just deciding to meet at the town square at a given time is a design of a process, and somebody had to suggest it as an intelligent and reasonable approach. The point is that it didn't just come into being by chance. People didn't just wake up one day and randomly think they'd stroll to the village square and when they got there with their bushel of corn (where did that come from?) found all the other villagers with the fruit of their labor looking to trade it. At some point, somebody had to propose it be done that way and everyone who wanted to participate had to agree. As for Attila - that's just an example of a very influencial, very elite person with a "unique" design for economic activity.dougmoran
November 17, 2005
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DaveScot "...while there are countless observations which support a physical origin." If you have some link(s) I'd be interested in reading about those observations. I, too, have a hard time understanding how non-physical consciousness could arise from physical matter.Brian
November 17, 2005
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geoff A buddist who is an atheist...its been done before, but only as a buddist who follows the teachings of Buddha, not an actual worshipper of Buddha. By your same reasoning you could have an Atheist who believes in Christianity An Atheist simply denies the existence of any supernatural being. I do not know where you get the idea that by denying a supernatural being, they also have to deny all things that are not materialistic. That would clearly be materialism. 99%...???? I would agree that a good number of Atheists are Naturalists, but i have not met many people who profess Materialism. Remember...Atheists just deny God, and any other deity. All other assumptions you are making about inherent philosophy are falsepuckSR
November 17, 2005
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Neal, I see your points. But I wasn't really addressing the issue of knowledge - I thought the thread was about recognizing the distinction between patterns that contain information and patterns that do not. But I do agree with your distinction between knowledge and information, and I agree also that not all information can be understood without some subjective judgment. However, would you agree that *some* information can be understood without subjective interpretation? If so, then the question comes down to what defines information that can be understood based on purely objective measures vs. not. Perhaps that will lead to what is at the heart of this matter: scientific evidence relative to life (and many other aspects of the universe) is subject to interpretation. And the reason for that is.... we don't have *all* of the information we need to render the interpretation completely objective. So we rely on inference and smart people to make those inferences meaningful. And we also rely on smart people to continue building the knowledge we need to find more of the information we need to make the inference less subjective. That process (of building the knowledge we need...) is called science. And thank God for making the universe so filled with information for us to find. I think we'd all go crazy without the intellectual pursuit. But either way you look at it, the discussion sure is interesting.dougmoran
November 17, 2005
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Well, 99% of atheists are materialists/naturalists. Those who don't believe in God but believe in the spiritual world (Budhists, etc.) we can continue with the argument later.geoffrobinson
November 17, 2005
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bombadill "I'm struggling to grasp how something purely physical could produce propositions and concepts which cannot be reduced to physical matter." Sounds like you're making an argument from ignorance. Consciousness can be observed. It can be observed having a focal point around a physical object. Destroy the physical object and consciousness can no longer be observed. This has been tested countless times and, anecdotal reports to the contrary aside, never fails. While it's possible that the physical object merely serves as a conduit for consciousness that resides outside that physical object there is no empirical data to support the external origin conjecture while there are countless observations which support a physical origin.DaveScot
November 17, 2005
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geoff: sorry i did not see your post earlier about Naturalism=Materialism You are very wrong if you assume that both Naturalism and Materialism are the same thing. It gets even worse when you assume that all Atheists are Materialists, and therefore intangible things must be theistic. Your logic is so completely flawed...I do not know where to begin to correct itpuckSR
November 17, 2005
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"A candidate for a design inference must have what Dembski refers to as conformation with an independently defined pattern. I (possibly reducing it to a subset of what Dembski intended) call that independently defined pattern a function." As I understand this, within the gene there is a *complex* set of information that *specifies* some independetly defined pattern, in this case, the gene's function.cambion
November 17, 2005
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JMCD, Thanks for the response, but it is either designed or it is not designed...saying that it is designed in a sense violates the Law of the Excluded Middle. Economies are designed period. The transactions can only take place with the supporting systems that are structured to underpin the transactions. All economies must have certain conditions met before they become economies. Transactions assume value and all transactions therefore are designed because they are preceeded by this concept of value or else a transaction would never take place. You also must have two parties willing to engage in the transaction that exchanges value. You also must have something of value to exchange. You also must have intelligent agents that understand the value of the exchange. Economies do not come from nothing. DanDan
November 17, 2005
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Sorry, wrote my last response before seeing this: "Thus if we analyze a gene for a design inference we must first know that it is a coding gene with an independently defined function - i.e. hemoglobin gene has the function of describing a protein used to transport gases. This I suppose could be called a purpose." I agree with you (almost) completely. I just think 'purpose' is too vague a term here, i.e. the hemoglobin gene could have been created by a higher power for an aesthetic sort of purpose, with the particular function of the gene being secondary. The point is that we can identify function, but not purpose.cambion
November 17, 2005
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DaveScot, "The dictionary was correct. Design implies purpose." I'm talking about identifying 'design' in the world around us. I can see how one can go about ascertaining an object's 'function,' but I can't really see how one can go about ascertaining an object's 'purpose.' For example, say we're anthropologists and we find an artifact, a piece of (what appears to be) jewelry say. From examining it, we can pretty easily infer a function (it is meant to be tied around one's neck - we can tell this from the 'arrangement of parts'), but it is much more difficult to ascribe a purpose. Was it made for purely aesthetic reasons, or does it have primarily religious significance? Or is there some other possibility? We know there was some purpose involved, but identifying that purpose is very difficult, and in many probably impossible. Thus, we cannot pick up this artifact and say it was 'designed,' if our sole criteria is 'purpose' for the obvious reason that don't know of its purpose. As a pragmatic definition then, we use function instead of purpose (for identification only).cambion
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