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L&FP, 71: The island of function, fitness peak trap

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Fine tuning
Logic and Reason
specified complexity
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We have been using a 3-D printer-constructor formalism, and now we can use it to see how hill climbing leads to local trapping.

Again, the core formalism:

Now, let us modify by allowing some sort of local random mutation to d(E) case by case within an n-run, now seen as a generation, so E1 to En are all incrementally different, and in effect are a ring around E in a fitness landscape. From this, we can see a survival filter that on average selects for superior performance. This leads, naturally to hill-climbing, perhaps even to several related peaks in a chain on an island of function. But now, we see:

Algorithmic hill-climbing first requires a hill . . .

Here, we see that hill climbing leads to peak trapping, as at A B or C, any change trend is downhill. Ruggedness of a fitness landscape counts, and not for the notion that hill climbing explains evolutionary advance.

No, it gets more complicated, once we realise that complex, information rich functionally specific organisation is a fine tuning phenomenon. That is, we now have the challenge of island hopping across seas of non function:

So, absent injection of active information . . . contrivance . . . there is a “natural, blind, needle in haystack search”challenge to create novel body plans. Where, if “natural selection” is acceptable, plainly so is “natural . . . search.”

This of course feeds back to getting TO the beaches of an island of function. So, we have the natural search problem in focus, once FSCO/I and fine tuned organisation are recognised.

For this, there has been much distraction and dismissiveness over the years [often, pretending hyperskeptically that FSCO/I is ill conceived], but no cogent answer, nor is there any good reason to believe in a vast continent of incrementally accessible functional forms from a last universal unicellular common ancestral form, traversing the tree of life believed to be ancestrally formed. Indeed, this brings to the surface the systematic pattern of gaps, sudden appearances and disappearances that are the trade secret of paleontology.

So, local trapping and need to arrive at shorelines of function by blind “natural . . . search” are significant challenges. Where, intentional injection of active information by intelligently directed configuration, absent ideological imposition, is a very good explanation for, say, the subtleties of a Dragonfly’s wing, including up to 25% speed improvement from flutter-reducing stigma on the leading edge of the wing . . . as obvious a case of subtle fine tuning as one may wish for:

And, so forth. END

Comments
@KF So, how was the functionality of the designer of bacterium reached? After all, It functions by designing organisms.critical rationalist
April 5, 2023
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@ Seversky
Although this is mostly a question of semantics.
Science is not the quest to correctly define worlds. Words are shortcuts for ideas. Also, progress often takes the form of unifications.critical rationalist
April 5, 2023
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what “L&FP” stand for
Logic and First Principles I stand by my assertion
There is no such thing as a search in Evolution
As I said no one wants to explore just what Evolution means and why it is bankrupt. Both sides are afraid. If it is natural, there is nothing to be afraid of for either side. But the evidence overwhelmingly says it cannot be natural. It’s actually a side show. So we get convoluted basically incoherent diatribes or platitudes.jerry
April 5, 2023
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Kairosfocus, Could you just clarify what "L&FP" stand for?Alan Fox
April 5, 2023
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Jerry, blind, random walk natural search is a reasonable term for the dynamic stochastic, blind processes being invoked. The underlying context of genetic and wider evolutionary search algorithms is well known, and it is obvious that fine tuned, multiple part configuration based function will come as deeply isolated islands in a configuration space. For, as random text generation exercises easily demonstrate [a case in point of d(E)] gibberish will dominate the field. The switch in rhetoric simply backhandedly reveals that the evolutionary algorithms push of years past, predictably, failed but they are not going to frankly admit to that. As for one tornado in a junkyard, the search challenge issue is that sol system or cosmos level atomic resources and time cannot get to plausible blind natural search once we have spaces of 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity. KF PS, here is Wiki as confessing on monkeys at keyboards, which i/l/o the formalism is WLOG, but tellingly reveals that blind random walk search is a significant focus, current rhetorical pretence otherwise notwithstanding:
[Wikipedia confesses regarding the infinite monkeys theorem:] The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation. One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed,
"VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t"
The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[26] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulated a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters:
RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d...
[ACC: Dec 17, 2019. NB: Where, also, as this is a digital age, we will readily see that we can compose a description language and then create a string of yes/no questions to specify any reasonable object -- as say AutoCAD etc do. Thus, our seemingly simplistic discussion on bit strings *-*-*- . . . is in fact without loss of generality [WLOG].] [Comment: 16 - 24 ASCII characters is far short of the relevant thresholds, at best, a factor of about 1 in 10^100. Yes, the article goes on to note that "instead of simply generating random characters one restricts the generator to a meaningful vocabulary and conservatively following grammar rules, like using a context-free grammar, then a random document generated this way can even fool some humans." But, that is simply implicitly conceding that design makes a big difference to what can be done. ]
PPS, at a more serious level, Walker and Davies are relevant to OoL and to multiverse, fluctuation models etc:
In physics, particularly in statistical mechanics, we base many of our calculations on the assumption of metric transitivity, which asserts that a system’s trajectory will eventually [--> given "enough time and search resources"] explore the entirety of its state space – thus everything that is phys-ically possible will eventually happen. It should then be trivially true that one could choose an arbitrary “final state” (e.g., a living organism) and “explain” it by evolving the system backwards in time choosing an appropriate state at some ’start’ time t_0 (fine-tuning the initial state). In the case of a chaotic system the initial state must be specified to arbitrarily high precision. But this account amounts to no more than saying that the world is as it is because it was as it was, and our current narrative therefore scarcely constitutes an explanation in the true scientific sense. We are left in a bit of a conundrum with respect to the problem of specifying the initial conditions necessary to explain our world. A key point is that if we require specialness in our initial state (such that we observe the current state of the world and not any other state) metric transitivity cannot hold true, as it blurs any dependency on initial conditions – that is, it makes little sense for us to single out any particular state as special by calling it the ’initial’ state. If we instead relax the assumption of metric transitivity (which seems more realistic for many real world physical systems – including life), then our phase space will consist of isolated pocket regions and it is not necessarily possible to get to any other physically possible state (see e.g. Fig. 1 for a cellular automata example).
[--> or, there may not be "enough" time and/or resources for the relevant exploration, i.e. we see the 500 - 1,000 bit complexity threshold at work vs 10^57 - 10^80 atoms with fast rxn rates at about 10^-13 to 10^-15 s leading to inability to explore more than a vanishingly small fraction on the gamut of Sol system or observed cosmos . . . the only actually, credibly observed cosmos]
Thus the initial state must be tuned to be in the region of phase space in which we find ourselves [--> notice, fine tuning], and there are regions of the configuration space our physical universe would be excluded from accessing, even if those states may be equally consistent and permissible under the microscopic laws of physics (starting from a different initial state). Thus according to the standard picture, we require special initial conditions to explain the complexity of the world, but also have a sense that we should not be on a particularly special trajectory to get here (or anywhere else) as it would be a sign of fine–tuning of the initial conditions. [ --> notice, the "loading"] Stated most simply, a potential problem with the way we currently formulate physics is that you can’t necessarily get everywhere from anywhere (see Walker [31] for discussion). ["The “Hard Problem” of Life," June 23, 2016, a discussion by Sara Imari Walker and Paul C.W. Davies at Arxiv.]
more on the anthropic principle from Lewis and Barnes https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/hitchhikers-guide-authors-puddle-argument-against-fine-tuning-and-a-response/#comment-729507kairosfocus
April 5, 2023
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JVL (attn, Seversky et al), as I noted, if you can speak of "natural SELECTION" you can speak of "natural, blind watchmaker, random walk SEARCH," so this is not a strawman; you are putting up a needlkess rhetorical obstacle and you must know better. For, we both know there are three main causal factor categories [long since established in the days of Plato and discussed by Newton but refined since], blindly mechanical necessity, equally blind chance, intelligent purposeful action; which of course can all be at work in a situation. Thus, we have dynamic-stochastic systems and models, we have agent action including design. In the case of origin of life theorising, the chemistry and physics of a Darwin pond etc will be thermodynamically constrained and dynamic-stochastic. The natural search challenge applies and as Tour has laid out in telling detail, there is no empirically warranted blind watchmaker path to life. There is no cogent, empirically warranted evolutionary materialistic solution. Likewise, for origin of body plans, mechanisims invoked include blind chance variations [especially mutations] and differential reproductive success, which is at least partly random but is generally presented as allowing incremental hill climbing. Which is precisely why peak trapping and the challenge to cross seas of non function, thence finding shores of function are all highly relevant. Where, we both know protein fold domains are deeply isolated in AA sequence space, more broadly configuration spaces are dominated by gibberish [ i.e. d(E) will naturally come as islands], and at body plan, macroevolutionary level the trade secret of anthropology is that fossil forms show systematic gaps and sudden appearances. It is the smoothly branching and growing tree of life model that is a simplistic icon. For cosmology, fine tuning is a serious challenge. So, resort to long since cogently answered objections simply exposes that the evolutionary cupboard is bare. KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2023
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Seversky @52,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but no evolutionary biologist has ever argued that a single tornado passing through a junkyard of aircraft parts could ever assemble a Boeing 747.
So, which is more complex: a Boeing 747 or a living cell? Within 3 billion years, could ANY human machine be randomly assembled from undirected evolutionary processes including random mutation (removal or addition) and natural selection (i.e. pitilessly indifference to the survival or extinction of any machine that might emerge) over that period of time? -QQuerius
April 4, 2023
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but no evolutionary biologist has ever argued that a single tornado passing through a junkyard of aircraft parts could ever assemble a Boeing 747. There was no disagreement between them and a certain physicist. As far as I'm aware, no evolutionary biologist has ever claimed that a complex modern organism, organ or protein - something that requires upwards of 500 bits of information to specify - is likely to be found on a single-pass search through the universe of all possible configurations within the current lifetime of our Universe. All agree that it would be so improbable as to be effectively impossible. Understanding this, evolutionary biologists all the way back to Darwin have argued that, if life arose from inanimate precursors, it would most likely have been through a process of tiny, incremental steps occurring over vast periods of time. When you criticize the improbability of the "tornado in a junkyard" or FSCO/I scenarios you are attacking positions that no evolutionary biologist holds or is concerned with defending. They are strawmen. What appears to be the problem is that people with a teleological mindset find it difficult to grasp that evolution is not searching for pre-determined targets and it is pitilessly indifferent to the survival or extinction of any organisms that might emerge, including us. If we want to survive and thrive we might do well to find a common purpose for ourselves rather than rely on some other intelligence (including artificial) to do it for us.Seversky
April 4, 2023
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Sandy/45 Edited for clarity ...
How dare you contest intelligent design creationism. “God did it" is dogma so doesn’t matter if there is no scientific evidence. Creationist belief must be true and is true …because I want to be true … I need it to be true!
Seversky
April 4, 2023
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Sandy @45,
How dare you to contest materialist teology. “Creative” Darwin’s pond is a dogma so doesn’t matter if there are no scientific evidences , materialist dogma must be true and is true …because I want to be true.
Direct hit! Your observation is supported by a conspicuous lack of ANY substantive scientific information within the flood of vacuous comments by a certain persistent Darwinist and ALL his sock puppets! -QQuerius
April 4, 2023
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Jerry: It would be easy to explore just what it means but no one here is interested in understanding. Strangely enough I asked you a couple of questions a few posts back, so I could better understand your view. But you ignored them.JVL
April 4, 2023
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There is no such thing as a search in Evolution. The use of the term is a metaphor for variations changing part of the genome and the new organism’s position in protein space is then slightly different. It would be easy to explore just what it means but no one here is interested in understanding. They want to attack each other over meaningless and irrelevant issues. By doing so each side has indicated how little they know. But we already know they know very little.jerry
April 4, 2023
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Do you ever trace IP addresses?
I have a website and used to look at the data of those visiting the site. It didn’t list email addresses but did identify the location of the server. Of course I wasn’t interested in who they were just where my web traffic was coming from. But for UD, there does seem to be a conflation of like minded people in short time spans periodically over the last few years. My guess they are friends or internet buddies.jerry
April 4, 2023
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Sandy: How dare you to contest materialist teology. “Creative” Darwin’s pond is a dogma so doesn’t matter if there are no scientific evidences , materialist dogma must be true and is true …because I want to be true. Nice screed. But, do you have an actual scientific argument to present opposing unguided evolutionary theory?JVL
April 4, 2023
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Kairosfocus darwin pond
How dare you to contest materialist teology. "Creative" Darwin's pond is a dogma so doesn't matter if there are no scientific evidences , materialist dogma must be true and is true ...because I want to be true. :)Sandy
April 4, 2023
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JVL@42, I couldn’t have said it better. If you can’t soundly argue against the evidence for a scientific theory, redefine the theory in a way you can dispute.Ford Prefect
April 4, 2023
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Does someone want to take a stab at translating comment 41? KF lost me at AF.....chuckdarwin
April 4, 2023
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Kairosfocus: system resources will be grossly inadequate to carry out plausible search It's time to stop this straw man attack against what unguided evolutionary theory is saying. There is no need to do some kind of search in a configuration space. Start with a very simple, very basic replicator, much shorter than you 500 bits. Allow it to replicate with occasional errors (including duplication of some sections of the heritable material) and introduce a non-random weeding process. There is no search. There are no islands of function because there is a path from every life form to every other life form. All of this has long since been shown, the denialism we see is just a back handed admission of no empirically backed answer. This has NOT been shown. It's your assumption of how life forms came about. You're not even arguing against the main tenets of unguided evolutionary theory. You're arguing against some perverted version of it that you have created in your mind. A version that no one is backing or supporting. At least have the basic human decency to actually address what the real arguments are.JVL
April 4, 2023
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AF (& attn bCR and CD, also AF's FP et al), after months of denial of the empirically grounded, Nobel Prize winning work, that established the presence of symbolic, algorithmic code in DNA and mRNA, you are of negative credibility. This OP builds on a formalism that identifies per Kolmogorov-Chaitin complexity, a compact description d(E) is informationally equivalent to a functionally specific, complex, organised entity E, by way of, having produced a description d(E) a 3-D Printer-Constructor can create a fresh copy. Once d(E) is compact, comparable to Kolmogorov minimum length, length of d(E), esp. in bits, is an estimator of the associated information in organised entity E. Of course, in cases such as AA chain assembly code toward building proteins, information is already explicitly present. Functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information is valid, period. Further to this, complex, configuration based function depending on correct arrangement, orientation and coupling of parts will take up a narrow zone in a space of possible configurations, thus FSCO/I is naturally associated with fine tuning. Thus the metaphor, islands of function in a much larger sea of non function is patently valid. While, arguably incremental hill climbing by random walk and selection of superior function can happen within such an island, peak trapping is an obvious challenge. Which is what the OP for cause highlights. Further, starting at the equivalent of a darwin pond, the dominant natural blind search challenge will be to find shorelines of function. Where at 500 bits complexity, Sol system resources will be grossly inadequate to carry out plausible search, and it is worse for cosmos scale resources with 1,000 bits. All of this has long since been shown, the denialism we see is just a back handed admission of no empirically backed answer. KFkairosfocus
April 4, 2023
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Kairowfocus @9,
FP is one of a circle of personas tracing to a common email.
That's disgusting. So, I presume that Ford Prefect arranges interesting conversations with his sock puppets. Is there a limit on how many UD accounts can use the same email? Do you ever trace IP addresses? -QQuerius
April 4, 2023
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Another comment that show’s he hasn’t a clue about what he believes. Says one thing then essentially denies it a few comments later.
QED! :)Alan Fox
April 4, 2023
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Andrew at 19, He could always post on cooking sites. :)relatd
April 4, 2023
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CR, what part of chance variation is not random? Do you also intend that C-Chem, cell based, aqueous medium, genes, proteins etc using life is written into the laws of physics, chemistry and thermodynamics? Recall, the root of the tree of life is the first question. Beyond, the complex integrated functional organisation and information for body plans has to be accounted for. These are full of Orgel-Wicken FSCO/I and the only actually empirically warranted source is intelligently directed configuration. Where, the OP poses an onward challenge, peak trapping even on hill climbing within a fitness -- functional superiority/inferiority -- landscape, so called. KFkairosfocus
April 4, 2023
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And much more.
no, actually much less. Another comment that show’s he hasn’t a clue about what he believes. Says one thing then essentially denies it a few comments later. People on both sides just mouth things here and never think them through.jerry
April 4, 2023
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I see there's a mangled comment of mine upthread. Too late to edit now. It was to Jerry so it is probably not worth rewritingAlan Fox
April 4, 2023
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Naturalized Evolution has to leave a trail in the genome. There is no trail. Why?
Of course there is. Since cheap and rapid gene sequencing, comparison of genes across species has enabled molecular phylogenetics to construct trees of relatedness that match trees produced solely by comparative anatomy. And much more.Alan Fox
April 4, 2023
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Contact restored! I lost it after my previous post.Seversky
April 4, 2023
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Jerry: it’s islands of function. So, give an example of an island of function in biology. Then we'll have a better idea of what you're talking about. Also, a strict definition of an island of function would be useful. Naturalized Evolution has to leave a trail in the genome. There is no trail. What kind of trail are you looking for? Not like a list of changes in a Word document surely.JVL
April 4, 2023
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All is easily determined. Neither side understands the issues and how to test. Instead they both make irrelevant comments. Been presented number of times. Both sides ignore. Never even ask questions or comment except Ann Gauger once who understood the issues. Clue: Naturalized Evolution has to leave a trail in the genome. There is no trail. Why?jerry
April 4, 2023
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Hint: it’s islands of function. And the question always has been whether these islands are attainable. How do I know of the ignorance? By the comment on gene duplication. An incredibly stupid comment.
Jerry, you're the Greek Chorus. Genes and genomes do gend up gettingAlan Fox
April 4, 2023
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