Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Dog is a Chien is a Perro is a Hund

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File:RNA-codons.png

Photo courtesy of Wikipedia

In his “UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step” UprightBiped argued that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is like any other form of recorded information – i.e., it is an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

After several months and over 1,400 combox comments, UB’s argument has withstood a barrage of attacks from our materialist friends.  This post is a response to one such attack.

UB’s opponents argue they cannot understand what he means by “arbitrary” in his argument.  Of course, UB has good responses to this objection, and I invite you to read them in the combox.  But as I was thinking about the matter this morning, it occurred to me that there is a very simple definition of “arbitrary” that, I think, makes the matter so clear that only the willfully obtuse could deny it.  Here it is:  An arrangement of signs is arbitrary when the identical purpose could be accomplished through a different arrangement of signs if the rules of the semiotic code were different.  [“Semiotics” is the study of how signs are used to represent things, such as how a word in a language represents a particular object.]

Here’s an example of an arbitrary arrangement of signs:  DOG.  This is the arrangement of signs English speakers use when they intend to represent Canis lupus familiaris. In precise semiotic parlance, the word “dog” is a “conventional sign” for Canis lupus familiaris among English speakers.  Here, “conventional” is used in the sense of a “convention” or an agreement.  In other words, English speakers in a sense “agree” that “dog” means Canis lupus familiaris.

Now, the point is that there is nothing inherent in a dog that requires it to be represented in the English language with the letters “D” followed by “O” followed by “G.”  If the rules of the semiotic code (i.e., the English language) were different, the identical purpose could be accomplished through a different arrangement of signs.  We know this because in other codes the same purpose is accomplished with vastly different signs.  In French the purpose is accomplished with the following arrangement of signs:  C H I E N.  In Spanish the purpose is accomplished with the following arrangement of signs:  P E R R O.  In German the purpose is accomplished with the following arrangement of signs:  H U N D.

In each of the semiotic codes the purpose of signifying an animal of the species Canis lupus familiaris is accomplished through an arbitrary set of signs.  If the rules of the code were different, a different set of signs would accomplish the identical purpose.  For example, if, for whatever reason, English speakers were collectively to agree that Canis lupus familiaris should be represented by “B L I M P,” then “blimp” would accomplish the purpose of representing Canis lupus familiaris just as well as “dog.”

How does this apply to the DNA code?  The arrangement of signs constituting a particular instruction in the DNA code is arbitrary in the same way that the arrangement of signs for representing Canis lupus familiaris is arbitrary.  For example, suppose in a particular strand of DNA the arrangement “AGC” means “add amino acid X.”  There is nothing about amino acid X that requires the instruction “add amino acid  X” to be represented by  “AGC.”  If the rules of the code were different the same purpose (i.e, instructing the cell to “add amino acid  X”) could be accomplished using “UAG” or any other combination.  Thus, the sign AGC is “arbitrary” in the sense UB was using the word.

Why is all of this important to ID?  It is important because it shows that the DNA code is not analogous to a semiotic code.  It is isometric with a semiotic code.  In other words, the digital code embedded in DNA is not “like” a semiotic code, it “is” a semiotic code.  This in turn is important because there is only one known source for a semiotic code:  intelligent agency.  Therefore, the presence of a semiotic code embedded within the cells of every living thing is powerful evidence of design, and the burden is on those who would deny design to demonstrate how a semiotic code could be developed though blind chance or mechanical law or both.

Comments
F/N: Do I need to explicitly say that design theory, qua theory, from the early 1980's on, makes no inference whatsoever that beyond any threshold of complexity, that what is, has been designed by God? Well, I have said it. Yet another strawman. KFkairosfocus
February 16, 2013
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In one word: fraud. "FSCO/I is an objective, easily observable phenomenon; a commonplace in fact." - KF I could easily name 100 things that KF could not give an empirical FSCO/I value for. Easily. An applied physicist faking as a universalist based on religious principles. That's the name of kairosfocus' Big-ID game. Just let him say, like Peter, that religion and faith have nothing to do with it! “I design, therefore the world is Designed; though I am not the designer or Designer of the world.” This is typical IDM idolatry. “DNA is not “like” a semiotic code, it “is” a semiotic code.” - Barry Arrington This quite obviously confuses human-made things with non-human made things. It shows that a lawyer is not a professional semiotician. The category difference doesn't seem to matter in universal Big-IDism. UD Editors: And your comment shows that you know how to make ad hominem arguments (he’s a lawyer!) and bald unsupported assertions (Did anyone else notice the total absence of anything even resembling an argument in this comment?) Good for you. Now, do you care to actually try to advance the debate by making logical arguments based on warranted premises? If not, that’s OK. I understand. Really I do. When all of the evidence is against you, ad hominem and bloviating is all you’ve got. Gregory
February 16, 2013
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AF: First, please get the descriptive abbreviation correct: functionally specific complex organisation and/or information. (With all due respect, your consistent inability/ unwillingness to accurately simply cite what you are discussing, after years of discussing design issues, speaks volumes, and none of it to your good. Whether inadvertently or not, you are erecting strawmen to knock over. In addition, your endless recycling of long since adequately answered objections speaks volumes on the underlying weakness of your case. If you had a real answer you would have given it, instead of indulging in strawman tactic sniping and dismissive bluster. For the sake of the onlooker, I will write again, and you are hereby warned that you have just earned poster-boy status.) Second, FSCO/I is an objective, easily observable phenomenon; a commonplace in fact. For specific instance, posts in this thread in English, are cases in point. Let's put it in these terms: anytime an object or phenomenon can be represented by a Wicken wiring diagram (= nodes and arcs pattern, which per the techniques of say AutoCAD can be reduced to a set of strings so to speak of strings is WLOG) and is such that moderate perturbation of same would destroy the function, where the information content of same is above 500 bits, we have a case of FSCO/I. (This obviously includes a string data or physical structure, i.e. one of form . . . -x-x-x-x- . . . Also, it is obvious that quite often, for something complicated to work,a great many parts have to be properly arranged, interfaced and combined. Otherwise the function will collapse or never emerge. Indeed, in many cases, without each and every member of a core cluster of parts being so present, arranged and interfaced, there can be no function of the relevant kind. And further, with a whole solar system to arrange 10^57 relevant atoms in, or at least the surface of a whole planet, there are vastly many more ways for such parts to be disorganised and non-functional than to be organised to function. That is, we see irreducible complexity, the emergence of islands of function in large configuration spaces of possible arrangements, and we see the needle in the haystack or monkeys at keyboards challenge to attempts to suggest emergence of function on blind chance and/or mechanical necessity.) You will observe that I have given a specific name, one of the two names that are foundational to the concept. And, I again must remind you of what you seem so eager to ignore or overlook, that the concepts, FSCO/I and the broader one specified complexity, are NOT -- repeat, NOT -- produced by any commenter online, or Dembski et al, or design theorists etc, but instead emerged as a needed concept to distinguish the way that observed cell based life forms differed from either order or randomness in their organisation that was specific in order to function. You have continued to indulge in empty dismissive bluster. So, let me note the score: 1 --> CSI and FSCO/I are terms/abbreviations that summarise concepts required to clarify how life forms are distinct from things that show the sort of low information order in a crystal, and the low specificity complexity in a random pattern. 2 --> It also turns out that this framework aptly describes a great many things in the world of language, computer programming, electronics, and engineered technology as a whole. 3 --> This is already suggestive of the credible source of FSCO/I. Design, which is in fact the only empirically well-warranted causally adequate source. 4 --> This point is analytically backed up by the needle in the haystack/monkeys at keyboards blind sampling of the config space challenge that shows why arriving at islands of function without intelligent direction is not credible. 5 --> Notice, the following result from the Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, on blind text generation from Wikipedia speaking against known ideological agenda, noting again, that an analysis of strings is WLOG:
it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters: RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d...
6 --> 24 ASCII characters or so has a config space of ~ 10^50 possibilities. 73 or so characters, a space of ~ 10^150, a factor of 10^100 beyond. This is of course, the scope of the config space for 500 bits. That's just the solar system limit. For the cosmos as a whole, we would go to 1,000 bits. 7 --> There is no practical difference, as the genomes for the simplest cell based life forms are of order 100,000 bases - 1 million bases, i.e. config spaces of order 9.98 * 10^60,205 at the lower end, utterly swamping the resources of the observed cosmos to search them out blindly. 8 --> So, when you dismissively speak of published cases of information-content measures for proteins, that has to be held in the context that those proteins are examples from the hundreds and thousands in even the simplest life forms, and the associated regulatory circuitry and organised execution machines that must be in place for the information to function. (As in, chicken and egg causal circles aplenty.) 9 --> From the initial discussions in the 1970's by Orgel (1973) and Wicken (1979), that is the context that has been on the table. 10 --> Indeed, as far back as March 19, 1953, Sir Francis Crick went on utterly clear record to his son:
"Now we believe that the DNA is a code. That is, the order of bases (the letters) makes one gene different from another gene (just as one page of print is different from another)"
_____________ AF, your quarrel in the end is not with the design theory movement, it is with sixty years of multiple Nobel Prize winning microbiology and related research. Research that shows that beyond reasonable doubt, to moral certainty [the degree that empirical facts can access], the living cell is based on functionally specific complex organisation that is information bearing, and in quantities that stagger the capacities of blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of the observed cosmos. Where also, there is just one empirically -- and routinely -- observed, known causally adequate source for such FSCO/I. (And this, after decades of attempts to find something, anything else that is a plausible substitute; all of which have failed or end up smuggling or letting the known cause in the back door.) In one word: Design. KFkairosfocus
February 16, 2013
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FSCO/I = functional specified complex "O" (organisation?) information. It has been pointed out on innumerable occasions that attaching some numerical probability to some arbitrary property of (the only example I have seen even attempted is the number of residues in a protein) some aspect of a biological entity only gives the result that beyond some arbitrary threshold everything is designed by God (come on guys, let's not beat around the bush). I have nothing to say about such beliefs except I am the last person to prevent other people believing what they want (as if I could!) I am strongly in support of freedom of conscience and the free exchange of ideas. Anyway, I'm over my bug, the sun is shining and my wife gets back home tomorrow, so there'll be no more trolling from me unless events conspire to create those initial conditions again. That may not be before the next ice age but qui sait?Alan Fox
February 16, 2013
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AF: Given your earlier fairly dismissive remarks on the term, I am going to ask you directly to read and respond to 260 above [won't take 2 mins to read], specifically on the roots of the concepts and terminology behind the abbreviation FSCO/I, and especially the role of Wicken and Orgel; you may wish to mix in Hoyle's remarks in the early 1980's also. KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2013
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O: Right on, again. Your point that he denial we seem to be seeing is most plausibly explained by inability to empirically warrant a materialistic model of cause for codes and algorithms joined to execution machinery, is sobering food for thought. KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2013
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EA @ 328 Your criticism is right on the mark. The avalanche of empirical knowledge that information and coding systems originate from intelligent agency, combined with the emphatic lack of any evidence that purely materialistic forces possess causal adequacy in this respect, shows that the burden of proof rests with the materialist. And furthermore, what is to be proved must be properly understood. The materialist must not only show that material processes are capable of producing information and coding systems, but that material processes are a more probable explanation than intelligent agency. Indeed, the materialist is fighting a losing battle. Incidentally, if there were abundant evidence to suggest that purely material causes were perfectly able to create the genetic code etc., I don't think materialists would have any objection to the term "genetic code." On the contrary they would be tripping over themselves to point out how material causes had produced an actual coding system comparable with what we humans create!Optimus
February 15, 2013
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O: Actually, oddly, it is the logical consequence of selective hyperskepticism. In order to dismiss what you should not -- here, the blatant evidence of a digital, algorithmically functional machine code in D/RNA, you have to accept what you should not -- that such a code is illusory and/or that it is all explained by chemistry and the wonderful powers of chance variation and differential success. (Remember, the FSCI threshold of 500 bits for our solar system is equivalent to pulling just one straw at chance from a cubical haystack 1,000 light years thick, and coming up on the jackpot. Even if such a haystack were superposed on our galactic neighbourhood, we are so far beyond a reasonable threshold here that anything but a straw under the circumstances is vanishingly different from practically impossible.) What instead is needed is balanced understanding of what makes reasonable warrant, and how that leads to an appreciation of the variety in legitimate views on important subjects. Such as this one. But, the point is, that those who are trying to insist on the blind watchmaker thesis far too often want those who raise the slightest question on their scheme radically marginalised, derided and dismissed. That is telling. KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2013
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Isn't there something tragically ironic about a guy from The Skeptic Zone criticizing ID proponents because of their incredulity (skepticism)?Optimus
February 15, 2013
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EA: "Charges of people being incredulous (which seems to be your primary debating tactic — just count how many times you have made that charge in this thread alone) are useless bluster." AF leveled the charge seven different times in this one thread by my count.Barry Arrington
February 15, 2013
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Alan Fox:
That there is the possibility that the origin of the genetic code did not require “an agency”.
Sure. And there is a possibility that the sun will cease shining today at noon or that gravity will fail tonight at midnight. However, thinking that these won't occur doesn't mean that one is inappropriately "incredulous." Science doesn't deal in sheer possibilities, but in realistic probabilities. Significant evidence has been presented that (i) we are dealing with a semiotic system in biology, (ii) semiotic systems are known, to our present state of knowledge, to only arise from intelligent designing beings. Further, neither you -- nor anyone else in the world, despite decades of diligent efforts -- has presented any solid evidence that such a system can arise through purely material and natural processes. You are the ones claiming that this system we see in biology goes against all other experience. The burden is squarely on you to show that this is a realistic possibility, not just some sheer logical possibility for debating purposes. Charges of people being incredulous (which seems to be your primary debating tactic -- just count how many times you have made that charge in this thread alone) are useless bluster. If you have some evidence for a purely natural origin of the semiotic system found in living cells, by all means please present it (and go claim your Nobel Prize, while you're at it). In the meantime we will continue to be properly and objectively incredulous of the materialist creation myth for this semiotic system. And our rational position in this regard will continue to stand in sharp contrast to those who, in order to justify their a priori materialistic philosophy, seem to be willing to believe almost anything . . .Eric Anderson
February 15, 2013
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Alan Fox:
But I still would like to know what “an agency” is WRT protein synthesis.
The Intelligent Designer who designed the system, ie the gentic code and the transcription/ translation process.Joe
February 15, 2013
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Alan Fox:
We are at cross purposes.
That is what happens when you spew unsupportable nonsense and refuse to follow along.
You appear to be referring to the origin of the code.
That is what the debate is about, Alan- how did it come to be. We say by intelligent design.
The code is well nigh universal across all extant species. There are subtle clues about possible simpler versions may have pre-dated the current code but not much hard evidence to decide between the various proposals.
Alan you don't even have a way to test the claim that blind and undirected chemical processes produced the genetic code. You lose.Joe
February 15, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Essentially, it remains a classical example of an argument from incredulity.
And what does your position have besides arguments from incredulity, arguments from ignorance and imagination?
That there is the possibility that the origin of the genetic code did not require “an agency”.
Is there? Good luck finding evidence for that. Geez Alan will accept anything just as long as it doesn't have anything to do with ID. You are pathetic AlanJoe
February 15, 2013
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Alan Fox said:
Rubbish, William. It’s the invention of one commenter here.
Says the guy who admits that he doesn't even know what the acronym means.William J Murray
February 15, 2013
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F/N: Bit busy, as the meteorite impact is a biggie, and there is to be an asteroid flyby. From VJT's responsive post, clipping Chaitin -- yes THAT one:
[P]eople often talk about DNA as a kind of programming language, and they mean it sort of loosely, as some kind of metaphor, and we all know about that metaphor. It’s especially used a lot, I think, in evo-devo. But it’s a very natural metaphor, because there are lots of analogies. For example, people talk about computer viruses. And another analogy is: there is this sort of principle in biology as well as in the software world that you don’t start over. If you have a very large software project, and it’s years old, then the software tends to get complicated. You start having the whole history of the software project in the software, because you can’t start over… You … can try adding new stuff on top… So the point is that now there is a well-known analogy between the software in the natural world and the software that we create in technology. But what I’m saying is, it’s not just an analogy. You can actually take advantage of that, to develop a mathematical theory of biology, at some fundamental level… Here’s basically the idea. We all know about computer programming languages, and they’re relatively recent, right? Fifty or sixty years, maybe, I don’t know. So … this is artificial digital software – artificial because it’s man-made: we came up with it. Now there is natural digital software, meanwhile, … by which I mean DNA, and this is much, much older – three or four billion years. And the interesting thing about this software is that it’s been there all along, in every cell, in every living being on this planet, except that we didn’t realize that … there was software there until we invented software on our own, and after that, we could see that we were surrounded by software… So this is the main idea, I think: I’m sort of postulating that DNA is a universal programming language. I see no reason to suppose that it’s less powerful than that. So it’s sort of a shocking thing that we have this very very old software around… So here’s the way I’m looking at biology now, in this viewpoint. Life is evolving software. Bodies are unimportant, right? The hardware is unimportant. The software is important…
As in, wake up and smell the coffee time! KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2013
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good night Alan.Upright BiPed
February 15, 2013
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What part of that conclusion do you think I’m incredulous about?
That there is the possibility that the origin of the genetic code did not require "an agency". But I still would like to know what "an agency" is WRT protein synthesis.Alan Fox
February 15, 2013
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Well, have you flounced or not, Upright Biped? What do you mean by "an agency" WRT protein synthesis? Is "an agency" a real entity WRT to proein synthesis?Alan Fox
February 15, 2013
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Alan, (again) the conclusion of the argument is that a mechanism capable of establishing a semiotic state is required prior to the onset of information transfer since information transfer is wholly dependent on it. Try to be specific. What part of that conclusion do you think I'm incredulous about? And which part is a "default" answer?Upright BiPed
February 15, 2013
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Joe: There is another level of the "game," and one key to it is the constant allusion to "presentation" by AF. A short list of talking points that manipulate emotions, ideological loyalties and perceptions that may well have been manipulated already, all reflect a pattern of failure to do due diligence to think through and address matters substantially and fairly on the merits of warrant. This in turn reflects the breakdown of rigour in post modern education and discourse. Let's pull back to basics:
Q: Arguments persuade, how? ANS: By appealing to one or more of emotions [and underlying perceptions, expectations and attitudes], to authorities (including presenters), and to fact and logic. Of these, our emotions are no better than the accuracy of underlying perceptions and warrant for judgements, where also they are notorious for blinding and leading to foolish and irrational behaviour. Next, no authority -- including no presenter, no matter how confident and smoothly polished his manner -- is better than his underlying facts, assumptions and reasoning. Thus, we see that in the end, it is warrant on reason in light of evident facts that is decisive. So, at some point, while it is also the case that Pareto's principle of the 10% or 20% of effort that yields 80 - 90% of results is applicable, there is also a need for the working out of reasonable details. Not, to persuade those who are not yet sufficiently broken from their locked in systems and selectively hyperskeptical dismissals of that which does not line up, and who are sufficiently benumbed to brush aside duties of care to truth and fairness through Alinsky type nihilistic tactics, but for the onlooker who is genuinely in need to a reasoned explanation. For such, the obvious duck, dodge and divert game will soon enough reveal itself as unreasonable and possibly deceptive.
In the case above, AF shows that after years he has either failed to learn, ponder and understand fairly the basic history of the roots of the concepts of complex specification and complex functionally specific organisation and information, or else that he is being willfully deceitful in spire of knowing better. And, he has shown by playing the ignore game, that he has again utterly failed to address the matter on the merits, once corrected. By now, sadly, this pattern goes to character, and one hopes that he will wake up and realise that he is exposing something that is, one way or another, very ugly and destructive. But again, this is one slice of the cake that has in it all the ingredients. We are suffering a widespread breakdown of the life of reason in our civilisation, and it portends sobering consequences in a world where one of the grim lessons of history is that folly, irrationality, unsound decisions and policy, selfish divisiveness and ruthless power-seeking and manipulation games in that cause lead to ruin. (Ever wondered why the Vikings were able to get launched on their raiding? Inadequate defences. Why? Internal in-fighting that distracted resources and focus. Similarly, after the initial Arab-led Islamic onslaught [itself invited by the mutual exhaustion of the wars between Byzantium and the Persians culminating in a patently hollow victory for the former in 628], the Byzantine empire gradually recovered and pushed back its frontier lines, actually all the way to Syria and Mesopotamia. But then in the 1070's someone had come to power in a very divisive fashion and a major defeat followed by civil strife allowed the Seljuk Turks to lay waste to the heartland of Anatolia. Byzantium never recovered from the blow. Our civilisation is playing these sorts of march of folly games, now. And the injection of radical a priori materialism wearing the holy lab coat and speaking falsely and destructively in the name of science, is a big part of the trouble.) What this thread has done is that it has shown that a prominent representative of the party of unyielding objection, is unable or unwilling to coherently and fairly address basic history, key concepts and ideas, much less evidence on the merits. After years and years. We can therefore freely draw the conclusion that the evidence is not pointing he way they desire. It is patent in an information age that information is real and is often used in information processing technology. Information has a sufficiently clear conceptual description, and is capable of being quantified, with the binary digit or bit as the commonest unit. Let us use the UD glossary definition, which is simply the Wiki definition cited as testifying against known interest:
“ . . that which would be communicated by a message if it were sent from a sender to a receiver capable of understanding the message . . . . In terms of data, it can be defined as a collection of facts [i.e. as represented or sensed in some format] from which conclusions may be drawn [and on which decisions and actions may be taken].”
The specifically organised sequencing of DNA monomers falls well within this definition. It is also instantly recognisable to someone who say knows how a Yale lock works: prong height in combination allows choosing of a functional pattern from a large set of possible patterns. This is a message that says "pass me, I am the authorised user." We see a four-state digital information system, used to construct a control tape by an organised process that is itself highly complex and functionally specific. That control tape, mRNA is then fed to a NC machine, the Ribosome, to construct a functional and highly specific object, a protein molecule. [BTW, the very fact that simply mixing and reacting AA molecules in a test tube and allowing them to react reliably will not lead to forming useful proteins is testimony to the isolation of the functional clusters of configs in the space of possibilities, even before we deal with cross reactions, chirality/handedness of molecules, etc etc. Darwin's warm little pond and the like OOL scenarios are dead.] That NC machine initialises, then uses a carrier, position-arm device with a universal carrier tool tip, tRNA, to assemble proteins. Which are then released and folded, often with chaperoning to fold in ways that are less stable than prion states, but are functional. Mad cow disease is eloquent testimony that we are dealing with isolated structures, and metastable ones that function. The computational challenge to specify folds and 3-d functional forms from linear chains and interaction forces, is only too eloquent in highlighting the functional specificity involved in the organisation. All of this and much more is easily accessible to AF. None of it even piques his interest, much less his serious examination. That speaks volumes, loud and telling volumes. None of it to his benefit. Or to that of the side that he represents as a seasoned objector to the design inference. That is a very important take-away lesson. Let us hope that sufficient of these objectors have sufficient sense of duty to truth, evidence and fairness left that they will wake up and rethink what they are and have been doing. And if not, then we can look on and draw lessons as to what we can and should avoid at all costs. For our own sakes and that of our civilisation, now sorely, nay, mortally wounded. By our very own selves. We need a miracle. Like as of yesterday. Otherwise, what lies ahead on inner dissentions and conflicts multiplied by ruthless assaults from without occasioned by now patent strategic failure, does not bear thinking about; it is beyond our worst nightmares. It is time to sober up, now. Before we find ourselves int eh position of France on May 10, 1940. The day when the bailiff's panzers came rolling in to collect the unpaid debts that had been so foolishly built up since 1919. This is not just a little rhetorical parlour game, we are seeing a slice of the wider, deeper ills of our whole civilisation. Where, as at now, I think it is too late to avert rivers of blood. The question is, whether we are in August 1914 or May 1940. (Both cost France about the same magnitude of casualties [rather roughly about 1/4 millions in the initial attacks], the difference is: in 1914, they were able to hold the line and hang on until they could win with the help of allies, at ruinous cost. But in 1940, things moved too fast for minds and systems conditioned to the rhythms of war techniques of a generation previous. And the cost of defeat on the initial onslaught was horrific beyond reckoning.) I trust I have been clear enough on the historical parallels that are at stake. So, let us close off by focusing on the expose of materialism and its self-refuting follies; as Plato highlighted 2350 years ago in The Laws, Bk X. That is, we can hardly say we were not warned on the consequences of clutching this asp to our bosom, in good time. Plato here speaks in the voice of the Athenian Stranger, in the aftermath of Athens' ruin:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that . . . The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny. )] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them . . .
Those who refuse to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its worst chapters. (Santayana, paraphrased, I believe.) Why are we so insistently foolish, in light of the horrific cost that has been paid over and over and over again? Why, why, why? AF, do you see what sort of folly you are serving by giving yourself over to this sort of self-refuting, nihilism-inviting materialism? (never mind the current disguise in the holy lab coat not the philosopher's cloak.) Do you not see where it leads, predictably and consistently leads? KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2013
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Thus far, I’ve pointed out this same model (at one time or another during the conversation) in human and animal communications, music boxes, traffic systems, bees, ants, gestures, a night light, computers, automated fabric looms, vision, sensory systems, bacteria, and protein synthesis. Each and every one using recorded information to bring about a concrete physical effect.
And I interpret you as concluding that thus all the examples that you list, including protein synthesis are the result of "an agency". (Therefore ID, I guess)Alan Fox
February 15, 2013
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And now Upright Biped tells Reciprocating Bill
Months wasted. They all end up the same way. I don’t care to make time for it right now...
And there we have it! So we await further developments in due course. Though I still have to point out that I haven't seen any indication of UB's conjecture gaining much traction outside the echo chamber. Essentially, it remains a classical example of an argument from incredulity.Alan Fox
February 15, 2013
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Just to save wear on scroll fingers Upright Biiped offers to answer my questions, so I ask:
what if anything has your argument to do with “Intelligent Design”
Ahh, strategy. Curiously, not a strategy employed to get to the evidence, but one to stay away from it. I’ve answered this question numerous times. The reason it keeps coming back up is because the material evidence of semiosis is intractable and overwhelming. Notice that Alan repeatedly claims that the argument is false (i.e. genetics has nothing to do with semiosis) then when challenged to enage the details and evidence, he quickly switches to argue about its implications instead. This does indeed, “cut to the chase” for Alan because the truth value of the observations themselves are meaningless to him. The conclusion of the argument is that a mechanism capable of establishing a semiotic state is required prior to the onset of the semiotic systems in biology. That is the conclusion. What that conclusion has to do with ID is obvious. Agency is a capable mechanism. It is the only capable mechanism known to exist. It is a universal observation. There are no counter-examples. Therefore, the opposing argument is necessarily based on personal incredulity; generally, that agency involvment was impossible prior to the onset of life on earth.
Sothat prompts me to ask
Now tell me why this is not a default argument. “I can only think of an agency that could produce the protein synthesis system that we find in cellular life” unless I am not paraphrasing you correctly, in which case can you amend it accordingly. Can I find anything out about this “agency”? Is this agency subject to the same “laws” that the rest of reality is subject to?
and I get this from Upright Biped
Alan, I have already given my definitions in purely material terms. For instance, I refer to one of the critical objects in my argument as a “representation” but then immediately define it as “an arrangement of matter that can evoke a physical effect within a system, where the representation is physicochemically arbitrary to the effect it evokes”. That is what a representation is a mechanical system which transfers information into an effect. Both the medium, and its arbitrary nature, are fundamental requirements of the system. You simply don’t recognize these facts yet. If you ever come to a point where you are capable of arguing the details of my argument instead of issuing dismissals, let me know.
Whether he/she intended to or not, UB does not address my query. Perhaps the best thing, as I and others have been suggesting, is for Upright Biped to write up his argument and publish it. I am sure there are appropriate veues. What about Evolution News and Views or BioInformatics?Alan Fox
February 14, 2013
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Bill, we've been off on your definitional derbies before. Months wasted. They all end up the same way. I don't care to make time for it right now, so please enjoy the last word.Upright BiPed
February 14, 2013
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Bill at #310
there are no observations in the OP above. Instead, we find a definition followed by a string of assertions. Specifically, “A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system” is a definition, not an observation. Everything that follows in the OP is built one way or another upon that definition.
I’m glad you now agree: “A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system” is a definition, not an observation.
Good grief. One opponent complains about not getting any definitions, while another complains that definitions are all I’ve given. I've been having conversations about a particular type of system, those that do the work of transferring recorded information into concrete physical effects. I’ve talked about the material demands on such systems, named objects, and described how those objects operate in order for the system to function. Your reply to this, is that my words are only definitions, not observations. Allow me to cut my “definition” in half and see if we can find an observation: ”A representation is _________________________________________.” Well no, apparently that’s not an observation. There is no “observation” there whatsoever. In fact, one could easily suggest that the sentence above is literally defined by being devoid of an observation. So let’s try the other half: ”_________________ is an arrangement of matter that evokes an effect within the system, and is materially arbitrary to the effect it evokes.” To any rational person, this is clearly an observation of the object being described (what else would describe it, if not descriptions). It’s an observation that imparts certain qualities on the object. These qualities identify the object among others in the system. One such quality is that it (the object) obviously operates within a system that produces effects. Another is that it evokes the effect in that system. And yet another is that it is materially-arbitrary to the effect it evokes. These observations, taken with others (i.e. protocols, evoke, information, arbitrary) provide a model for the transfer of recorded information. Thus far, I’ve pointed out this same model (at one time or another during the conversation) in human and animal communications, music boxes, traffic systems, bees, ants, gestures, a night light, computers, automated fabric looms, vision, sensory systems, bacteria, and protein synthesis. Each and every one using recorded information to bring about a concrete physical effect. Thus far, none of the observations have been demonstrated to be false. You cannot do so either. Your complaint is the nonsense that stems from that fact.Upright BiPed
February 14, 2013
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petrushka on February 4, 2013 at 1:17 am said:
Anybody home?
Recent Comments: Patrick on Sandbox OMTWO on Sandbox Robin on Sandbox Patrick on Sandbox OMTWO on Sandbox Robin on Sandbox Joe Felsenstein on Sandbox Reciprocating Bill on Sandbox rhampton7 on Sandbox Reciprocating Bill on Sandbox Allan Miller on Sandbox Dave L on Sandbox petrushka on Sandbox Dave L on Sandbox Toronto on Sandbox Neil Rickert on Sandbox petrushka on SandboxMung
February 14, 2013
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What better way to deal with observations than to simply say they are definitions?Mung
February 14, 2013
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UB @ 304:
Alan, I have already given my definitions in purely material terms. For instance, I refer to one of the critical objects in my argument as a “representation” but then immediately define it as “an arrangement of matter that can evoke a physical effect within a system, where the representation is physicochemically arbitrary to the effect it evokes”.
(My emphases.) As I said in the "UB Sets it Out" thread:
UB has characterized his opening post as presenting “observations” followed by logical conclusions. But there are no observations in the OP above. Instead, we find a definition followed by a string of assertions. Specifically, “A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system” is a definition, not an observation. Everything that follows in the OP is built one way or another upon that definition.
UB, you objected at the time.
Ah yes. Let us not forget another round of the ridiculously-strained and notoriously-idiosyncratic parsing of words. What better way to deal with observations than to simply say they don’t exist?
I'm glad you now agree: "A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system” is a definition, not an observation. Carry on!Reciprocating Bill
February 14, 2013
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"It seems to me that an additional strong argument for the arbitrary nature of the genetic codes is the existence of anti-sense transcription."
Anti-sense transcription aids error correction, which aids survival.
Proofreading DNA Replication ...Ultimate precision is achieved by two separate stages of sensory-based proofreading: - The first stage occurs during polymerization. When an incorrect nucleotide has been incorporated into the new growing DNA strand, mispairing between the new and old strands distorts the structure of the growing double helix. The polymerase senses the distortion and interrupts polymerization. While polymerization is halted, another activity of the replication apparatus removes the incorrect base from the end of the new strand, relieves the distortion to the double helix, and allows polymerization to resume, replacing the incorrectly inserted nucleotide. In this process, known as exonuclease proofreading, the polymerase itself serves as the sensor that detects mistakes and activates the correct functions.... Exonuclease proofreading increases replication accuracy 100 to 1000-fold (two or three orders of magnitude).... - Evolution: A View from the 21st Century, James A. Shapiro, Kindle location 511.
Organisms exhibiting this feature exhibit a distinct survival advantage, and are more likely to successfully reproduce. Hence, natural selection provides a parsimonious explanation for such features -- for any feature, really. Why else would we expect to see features that contribute to, enhance, or are necessary for survival?Chance Ratcliff
February 14, 2013
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