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A Final Word on “Evidence”

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In several posts last month Dr. Torley and I led a spirited discussion on the nature of “evidence.” See here, here, here and here. Those discussions revealed there is a lot of confusion about this topic. This is especially the case when it comes to the purpose of evidence. Many of our materialist friends seem to believe that unless evidence compels belief it does not count as evidence at all. Worse, they seem to believe that merely by advancing an alternative explanation for some proposition, they have caused all of the evidence for the explanation advanced by their opponents to magically turn into non-evidence.  This is simply not the case.

Let’s go back to the dictionary. Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

The critical word there is “indicating.” To be evidence a fact need merely indicate that a proposition is true. It need not compel belief in the proposition. As I stated in one of my posts, a jury trial is a good example of this. In every jury trial both sides submit evidence to the jury. But in every jury trial only one side wins. Does that mean the losing side’s evidence was not evidence because the jury did not believe it? Of course not. Again, evidence “indicates.” It does not compel.

Consider Dr. Torley’s example of the evidence for the alleged levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1600s. Dr. Torley states:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation

I had never heard of St. Joseph of Cupertino prior to reading about him in Dr. Torley’s post. I did a little investigation and found out he was a real person and in fact to this day he is the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, test takers and poor students.

Frankly, however, I remain incredulous about the reports of levitation. Does that mean I believe Dr. Torley failed to adduce any evidence at all that St. Joseph could levitate? Of course not. All of those reports to which Dr. Torley alluded indicate that belief in the proposition that St. Joseph could fly is valid.  Again, the key word is “indicate.”  To indicate means to point to a possibility.  Sure, there may be other possibilities (for example, the reports might be false).  An indication does not compel belief. It merely supports it. And that is what evidence does; its supports belief.  And that is the case even if that belief turns out to be false.  When a jury is presented with conflicting evidence they weigh all of the evidence and do their best to come to a reasonable conclusion.  If they reject evidence, that does not mean it was not evidence.  It means they found the evidence unpersuasive.

Thus, when I say I am disinclined to believe that St. Joseph could fly, I am not saying there is no evidence he could fly. Of course there is. I am merely saying I am not inclined to believe the evidence.  There is a huge epistemic difference between “there is no evidence” and “I personally find the evidence unpersuasive.”

Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence. They are not entitled to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.

A word of advice to our atheist interlocutors. You are entitled logically to say to a theist, “In my judgment your evidence is unpersuasive.” But you cannot logically say “I have defined your evidence as non-evidence merely because I found it unpersuasive.”

Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.

Why am I belaboring this point? Because I hope our arguments with atheists on this site will be challenging and interesting. And responding to stupid arguments like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” is tedious and boring.

Comments
Robert, your comments are intellectual murder.Curly Howard
March 21, 2015
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I have asked it (several times) before ... is there some reference to the existence of the witnesses statements ? Cmon BA77 ... this is your chance.Graham2
March 21, 2015
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For evolutionary biology conclusions the operative words must be biological and scientific. Evolutionism has always placed its faith in geology, biogeography, genetics of late, and raw comparison of body parts and all lines of reasoning connections. And a little dab of natural selection in minor things. They get away with intellectual murder. I always have satisfying success asking and paying close attention to WHAT ARE YOUR TOP THREE, or one, BIO SCI evidencdes for evolution. Bang pow. its all not bio sci but other subjects they think back up evolution. It works because if evolution was not true it couldn't possibly have bio sci evidence as the standard for evidence for a sci theory defeats false ideas as big as evolutionism must be.Robert Byers
March 21, 2015
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tabasco:
That depends on how you define the self. Certainly the ‘folk dualist’ conception of the self as nonphysical and independent of the body is false.
I agree but that does not prevent the materialist conception of the self as the body/brain from being equally false.Mapou
March 21, 2015
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There's a movie about the life St Joseph of Cupertino called "The Reluctant Saint"Silver Asiatic
March 21, 2015
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When someone claims to have read that there are 150 sworn depositions concerning St Joseph of Cupertino's alleged levitations, would that be admissible in court as evidence that such depositions exist and attest to what is claimed?Seversky
March 21, 2015
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The requirements for evidence differ depending on whether one is dealing with repeatable phenomena or non-repeatable historical events. The latter can provide only likelihoods, a preponderance of evidence. Faith, whether it's directed toward a religion, a political party, an institution, a person, or a scientific paradigm often seems to have a strong personal preference involved as well, which determines what someone will accept as evidence. Monty Python's Dead Parrot skit comes to mind. So, how do people change their convictions? The apostle Paul comes to mind. So does Pavlov. -QQuerius
March 21, 2015
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bornagain77:
His [the atheist's] worldview entails that his conscious, subjective, sense of self is merely an illusion.
That depends on how you define the self. Certainly the 'folk dualist' conception of the self as nonphysical and independent of the body is false.
Moreover, as if that were not bad enough, not only does the atheist insist that his sense of self is merely a neuronal illusion, but he goes on to compound the problem by insisting that he really has no free will, but that his free will is also merely an illusion that his neuronal illusion of self is having.
Not all atheists deny the existence of free will. You need to get out more.
Moreover, by claiming that his free will is merely an illusion of his illusion of self, the atheist forfeits any and all rights to claim that he is arguing logically from the evidence:
Why would you think that logic somehow depends on having free will? When a computer proves a mathematical theorem, do you think it is exercising free will?
Additionally, many NDE’s have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,,
People say the same of their UFO "abduction" experiences. Do you believe that those stories are true, bornagain77? Verse and Music:
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." -- Richard Feynman Overman -- Evolution Rocks: http://www.skeptic.com/junior_skeptic/mixtape2009/downloads/Overman_Evolution_Rocks.mp3
tabasco
March 21, 2015
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as to:
Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.”
Although the evidence for ID is overwhelming, I would like to point a rather humorous self-defeater to the materialist's/atheist's worldview. His worldview entails that his conscious, subjective, sense of self is merely an illusion. This puts our atheistic friend in quite a bind as to trying to persuade us that his judgement of evidence is more trustworthy than ours. Ross Douthat puts the awkward situation like this:
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0
Moreover, as if that were not bad enough, not only does the atheist insist that his sense of self is merely a neuronal illusion, but he goes on to compound the problem by insisting that he really has no free will, but that his free will is also merely an illusion that his neuronal illusion of self is having. In other words, his worldview boils down to an illusion of self having an illusion of free will! :) Moreover, by claiming that his free will is merely an illusion of his illusion of self, the atheist forfeits any and all rights to claim that he is arguing logically from the evidence:
Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html
Thus, if an atheists argues, "I" don't find the evidence persuasive', we can simply turn right around and ask him, "Exactly who is this "I that you are talking about, and what made you think that that "I" had a choice in the matter in the first place?" In other words, it doesn't matter that the atheist finds the evidence unpersuasive since his worldview forces him to say that he does not really exist and that his non-existent self had no choice in the matter anyway! Of somewhat related interest to the atheist insisting that he is merely a neuronal illusion having an illusion of free will, atheists also claim that Near Death Experiences are merely an illusion, even though the observational evidence for them greatly exceeds the observational evidence for Darwinian evolution:
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
What is interesting with atheists claiming that NDEs are merely an illusion, is that the following study found NDEs to be 'even more real than real':
'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/
Thus, playing off Decartes, since the most sure thing I can know about reality is the fact that I exist, and since all judgment of evidence is dependent on our sense of self, and free will, being non-illusory, then, since their sense of self became 'even more real than real' in their NDEs, that adds even more weight to the validity of their testimonies. One could even argue, since the sense of self itself is part of what became 'even more real than real', that no more sure evidence than that could ever be offered that the Experiences are non-illusory. A few supplemental quotes and notes:
A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html Dr. Eben Alexander Says It's Time for Brain Science to Graduate From Kindergarten - 10/24/2013 Excerpt: To take the approach of, "Oh it had to be a hallucination of the brain" is just crazy. The simplistic idea that NDEs (Near Death Experiences) are a trick of a dying brain is similar to taking a piece of cardboard out of a pizza delivery box, rolling it down a hill and then claiming that it's an identical event as rolling a beautiful Ferrari down a hill. They are not the same at all. The problem is the pure materialist scientists can be so closed-minded about it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid-peschke/near-death-experiences_b_4151093.html David Chalmers on Consciousness (Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo Rene (I Think Therefore I Am) Decartes - 34 minute lecture https://vimeo.com/48210238 "Descartes said 'I think, therefore I am.' My bet is that God replied, 'I am, therefore think.'" Art Battson - Access Research Group
Verse and Music:
James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. Wake Me O Lord! - Inspirational Poem - music video Evanescence - Bring Me To Life - Lyric: ‘Only You are the living among the dead” http://vimeo.com/38692431
bornagain77
March 21, 2015
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The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials .... Could someone provide some sort of reference for this ?Graham2
March 21, 2015
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Above, I asked:
Barry, Is the current color of Kim Kardashian’s hair evidence that there are infinitely many prime numbers?
I hope the reason for my question is obvious. If Barry answers 'no', then he is doing exactly what he has accused his "atheist friends" of doing:
Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence.
Barry, if I tell you that Kim's hair color is evidence for the infinitude of the primes, will you respond "Yes, you're right?" Or will you follow the atheists' sensible lead and say "That's not evidence for the infinitude of primes"?tabasco
March 21, 2015
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AmHD: ev·i·dence (?v??-d?ns) n. 1. a. A thing or set of things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weighed the evidence for and against the hypothesis. b. Something indicative; an indication or set of indications: saw no evidence of grief on the mourner's face. 2. Law a. The means by which an allegation may be proven, such as oral testimony, documents, or physical objects. b. The set of legal rules determining what testimony, documents, and objects may be admitted as proof in a trial. tr.v. ev·i·denced, ev·i·denc·ing, ev·i·denc·es To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove: Her curiosity is evidenced by the number of books she owns. Idiom: in evidence 1. Plainly visible; to be seen: It was early, and few pedestrians were in evidence on the city streets. 2. Law As legal evidence: submitted the photograph in evidence. [Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin ?videntia, from Latin ?vid?ns, ?vident-, obvious; see evident.] KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2015
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Evidence evidence (v.) "show clearly, prove, give evidence of," c.1600, from evidence (n.) c.1300, "appearance from which inferences may be drawn," from Old French evidence, from Late Latin evidentia "proof," in classical Latin "distinction, vivid presentation, clearness" in rhetoric, from stem of Latin evidens "obvious, apparent". evident (adj.) late c. 14, from Old French evident and directly from Latin evidentem (nominative evidens) "perceptible, clear, obvious, apparent" from ex- "fully, out of" (see ex-) + videntem (nominative videns), present participle of videre "to see". Reference: http://www.etymonline.com/redwave
March 21, 2015
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Personally, I have sometimes found it helpful to ask someone, "What evidence would you accept?" If the answer is that he would accept no evidence or else he says something flip, it's best to just get out of the conversation. It is worth remembering that Darwin's followers probably do not think the human mind is capable of forming correct conclusions anyway (as opposed to those that spread our genes). The main use of the conversation would be to help make that clear.News
March 21, 2015
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BA, thoughtful words on a pivotal issue in both logic and epistemology, with relevance to many situations. The fallacy of selective hyperskepticism runs deep. And, ironically if you or I find the favoured conclusions, arguments and adduced fact claims etc used by many advocates of evolutionary materialism (or its fellow travelers), they are apt to accuse us of:
appeals to personal incredulity.
The irony . . . KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2015
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It was also more than a word. So, shirley it should be: "Final words" on Evidence However we all know it is more like: More thoughts on "Evidence"Joe
March 21, 2015
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Barry, Is the current color of Kim Kardashian's hair evidence that there are infinitely many prime numbers?tabasco
March 21, 2015
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Misplace quotes? Surely it should be: A "final word" on evidence. We all know that there's no such thing as a final word.Neil Rickert
March 21, 2015
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Many times (most times?) evidence is lost, it's gone, it disappears. In a trillion years the Cosmic Microwave Backround will be gone. Evidence of Big Bang will poof. http://m.space.com/11380-big-bang-evidence-universe-trillion-years.html It's good to write stuff down. Old and New Testaments are great historical documents. A "godsend" if you will;)ppolish
March 21, 2015
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