Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

Categories
Intelligent Design
specified complexity
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
'And that is why it is difficult to reason with you, Gregory. I doubt that you know what science is.' He doesn't, Joe. Sciecne is a very real threat to him and his buddies of the Covenant of the Double Helix. He is simply scared to look at the empirical evidence - over and above the circumstantial, such as its perfect match with the Sudarium - for Christ's resurrection; hoping, moreover, that it will all go away, vanish from the public arena. His desperate recourse to Dawkin's lese-majeste defence doesn't hold water, since it was not I who carried out the investigations (!), but a team of very highly-accredited scientists. We know that it's not a pathological lack of interest in everything, that deters Greg and his materialist confreres from investigating such absolutely extraordinary, empirically-based claims, but a fear of their life being turned upside down. Well to use Del Boy's enhanced version of 'C'est la vie'... 'Angleterre, nul point,' even for ID, the winnning side. Yet. Strange to be so fearful of a truth not in the least intrinsically menacing. It doesn't do a lot for science's already negative reputation as a haven for truth-seekers, does it?Axel
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
09:43 AM
9
09
43
AM
PDT
Mung @207 One would think that in Christian theology the fact that evil is designed is uncontroversial. Is it not by very definition the deliberate negation of God's expressed will by conscious agents either human or demonic? Paul accuses those who turn away from the knowledge of God of "inventing ways to do evil" (Romans 1.20). So evil is designed by evil agents. How else would something go against the will of God? By God's inattention or ignorance or self-contradiction? Scarcely. And if God is the source of all good, then how could anything good arise apart from his purpose? Do good things happen on their own? Are there several creators? That's been the teaching of historical Christianity for the last 2000 years. None of this, though, seems to have any direct bearing on ID, which apart from its refusal to grapple with God (for which Steve Fuller criticises it) if anything, by restricting itself do what might be demonstrably designed, risks falling into the naturalistic trap that there are things that can happen "on their own" apart from God. Such dualism, however, is not orthodox.Jon Garvey
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
es58 - “Dawkins is also in on this?” Big-ID and Richard Dawkins are like two peas in a pod. They thrive on each other. But that has little to do with truth. Yes, I’ve thought quite thoroughly through the ‘pseudo-philosophy’ of Big-ID, even if Big-ID theory is supposed to be pure only about 'natural science,' and not about philosophy. I wrote and successfully defended (against TE's!!!) a masters thesis on the topic, which Big-ID people should normally celebrate and promote, though since I reject Big-ID theory, they wish to try to 'expel' from reality. “Follow the evidence where it leads” is a simplistic IDist ploy. They (IDists) don’t actually “follow the evidence.” They employ ideologies that lead them to conclude that EVERYTHING IS DESIGNED, INCLUDING EVIL AND DEATH. Quite surely, as someone who has closely studied Big-ID at the DI, I am much more qualified to speak about this than ‘es58,’ who should probably rather go hide behind a safety rock and still loudly claim that the scientific world has expelled them for unfair purposes. Such 'facts of life' are hard to swallow for Big-ID 'pseudo-scientific revolutionaries.' Peoples of the Abrahamic faiths will outlive such taunts to their integrity by Big-IDists. - Gr. p.s. Mung, if grains of sand could speak, they'd complain that you were trying to speak pseudo-intellectually on their behalf. If you haven't read Dembski say that, then that's your debt. Abrahamic believers in good faith continue to accept small-id/ the view that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," regardless of the pitiful existence of an 'I+D+M'. small-id assumes a Transcendent Designer, but does not (unlike Big-ID) try to natural scientifically prove it.Gregory
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
08:17 AM
8
08
17
AM
PDT
Gregory:
Why is it such a difficult proposition for hard-core IDists to realise that ‘intelligence’ is properly a concept for psychology, anthropology and sociology and *not* for biology or geology?
Perhaps because I consider myself to be both biological and intelligent. Rocks, otoh, I don't consider to be intelligent.Mung
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
08:12 AM
8
08
12
AM
PDT
Gregory:
a person or research team, differs fundamentally from Big-ID’s hypothesis that a transcendent Designer can be natural scientifically proven using probability theories to have ‘created’ OoL, OoBI and ‘human origins.’ What needs to be understood is the scope of Big-ID, so that it doesn’t turn into a universalist ideology wherein *everything* is Designed, including evil.
Anyone here identify with this statement? Show of hands? Ironically, it's Gregory's preferred "small id" that attempts to prove a transcendant Designer.Mung
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
07:57 AM
7
07
57
AM
PDT
Gregory: So, per my question at 151, Dawkins is also in on this? (DI should send him a regular check. In fact, they probably do :) ) What it looks like to me is someone who has already done the thinking through of the philosophy, decided he doesn't like the results [not possible his philo is wrong, and not possible it's beyond his understanding] and therefore has erected artificial barriers [ created by an artificer - design detection anyone?] to stop things before people can "follow the evidence where it leads". But, that's just me, I guess.es58
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
T:
Mung: Nonethless, I infer, from the contents, that your remark was probably aimed at me.
No, it wasn't aimed at you. :) Sorry for the confusion. When I direct a post at a particular individual I do try to make it clear to whom it is addressed. This was just meant as a general post addressing the previously raised attempts to make organism/artifact distinctions.Mung
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
07:32 AM
7
07
32
AM
PDT
Gregory, I have previously commented on how you willfully ignore (and otherwise refuse to engage) material evidence that refutes your position. Then in comment #171, I stated that 'humans are semiotic beings', and immediate followed that statement with a straightforward material argument demonstrating precisely how that fact relates to OoL. In response, you ignored my argument in its totality and responded with:
“Humans are semiotic beings” Bravo! And what does that have to do with OoL.
It requires integrity to engage well-reasoned opposing arguments. Your response above is a sufficiently clear example of how you undermine that integrity in yourself. It also demonstrates the lengths you are willing to go intellectually in order to sell your anti-ID position, as well as why your efforts are destined to the failure you’ve experienced with them thus far.Upright BiPed
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
07:12 AM
7
07
12
AM
PDT
Gregory:
This thread demonstrates that it is very difficult to reason with someone who’s already taken the blue pill and returned them-self to a ‘dream world.’
And that is why it is difficult to reason with you, Gregory. I doubt that you know what science is.Joe
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
06:54 AM
6
06
54
AM
PDT
G: Please go find a mirror and look in it. Then, come back and look again, carefully above on the path of reasoning and evidence that you seem determined to sweep away. Then, look back in the mirror and think again. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
06:46 AM
6
06
46
AM
PDT
This thread demonstrates that it is very difficult to reason with someone who’s already taken the blue pill and returned them-self to a ‘dream world.’ They will strive to find and come up with a thousand answers why the reality others know is not the ‘reality’ that they live in. Surely by now it is obvious to everyone reading this thread that KF cannot and/or will not offer a number or probability for the three questions I asked him regarding his pseudo-science by the name of FSCO/I. That’s just something to be honestly noted. KF plainly had nothing to offer by the numbers and most likely won’t ever offer numbers within his lifetime. Surely readers understand that pseudo-science is a major problem regarding the Big-ID topic, when some American or British-educated natural scientists and quasi-philosophers are aiming to reform how natural science is done globally. “we can[not] project the term intelligent beyond the human circle” - KF Are plants ‘intelligent’ (cf. Robert Trivers)? Are slugs ‘intelligent’? Is dirt ‘intelligent’? One cannot tell how far KF wants to go unless he spells it out. What are the limits and reach of ‘intelligence’ according to KF? The blank piece of paper sitting on KF’s desk: is that ‘intelligent’? Obviously KF believes in Divine Intelligence. But he seems to want to fragment and disassociate his actual beliefs from his pseudo-science of Big-ID. My position is quite uncontroversial and a simple one that is validated and reiterated throughout the history of sciences involving humanity. We (us; you and I) are unique in the universe that we know. Thus, when I and many others associate ‘intelligence’ with ‘humanity’ there is nothing unusual about it. What we reject point blank is ‘Big-ID’ theory, as represented here at UD and by the IDM based in DI. KF can go argue himself with uneducated folks about the so-called ‘intelligence’ of other things somewhere else if that’s his fetish. That’s merely a distraction here. And it does nothing to change the valid and orthodox distinction made between small-id and Big-ID theory and how irrelevant Big-ID is to small-id understanding. Do you people really appear so stunned as to not recognise how irrelevant Big-ID theory actually is to small-id understanding?!?!? “we have no good reason to confine designing intelligence to human intelligence.” – KF Go ahead, then. Make your claim about non-human ‘designing intelligence.’ Clarify and quantify it with empirical indicators. Even still, it doesn’t change the Big-ID argument about OoL, OoBI and ‘human origins’ or offer anything original regarding ‘naturalism’. Why does KF constantly pretend that it does as if a 3 yr-old child could out-tackle a SuperBowl giant? Fantasy-football is what KF’s pseudo-scientific Big-ID theory amounts to. Since KF brought it up, the question is open: Is SIN ‘intelligently designed/Intelligently Designed’? Iow, did God ‘Intelligently Design’ SIN? Obviously we all here know that the Holocaust was ‘intelligently designed,’ right? Stephen C. Meyer’s recent admission of ‘ID theodicy’ is pretty much the only thing saving your ridiculous naturalistic position. And it means bowing to the small-id viewpoint of Steve Fuller in the process. But most of you really don't care about the sovereignty of scientific disciplines, so let Hell Freeze Over before you will ever give up on Big-ID theory.Gregory
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
06:31 AM
6
06
31
AM
PDT
Gregory asks for my current position. My current position is, first of all, that the vocabulary of "big ID versus small id" is confusing and should be dropped. Wherever it is raised on the web (and it usually seems to be Gregory who is raising it), it appears to cause massive confusion, as people try to sort out what the terms mean, and figure out exactly what unreasonable and doctrinaire positions "big ID" is supposed to commit one to, so that they can eschew them (to be deemed rational in Gregory's eyes). So why continue to employ such jargon? Why not drop the terms and simply let people describe their positions on design in nature, and defend them, without labelling them as "big" or "small"? There's too much jargon in the world already; why add to it? So, in line with this approach, I will now describe my position on design in nature, sans big/small, ID/id terminology. My position is that it is reasonable, based on everything we know from physics, chemistry, and biology, to infer that design was involved in both the origin and subsequent evolution of life. Whether that inference is called "scientific" (because it is based on modern scientific knowledge) or "philosophical" (because it involves reasoning of a broader and more holistic kind than modern scientists typically perform), is something I really don't give a rat's rear end about. The attempt to associate the prestige of the word "science" with one's views is wholly political ("science" being popularly considered the standard of truth in the modern age), and I'm concerned with the truth about the origin of natural things, not with political victory. I think the evidence points to design, and whether my opponents will allow me to use the word "scientific" to describe my conclusion is irrelevant to me. If it's a valid conclusion based on the evidence, whether or not it's "scientific" is unimportant. I disagree with the theistic evolutionists -- or most of them -- because I don't think that design in nature is something we can know of *only* through the eyes of faith. I think that design in nature is something we can come to know through empirical investigation and rational reflection. On this point, I am on the side of both Aquinas and Calvin, and against the pietists (whether Mennonite, Lutheran, or "Wesleyan") whose theology of creation is wholly fideistic. I think that a wholly fideistic position on creation is contrary to both the Bible and the Christian tradition. I have not read Bejan, and therefore will not comment directly on his views, but with his position *as represented by Gregory* -- that design in nature does not imply a designer of nature -- I sharply disagree. I think that the notion of design without a designer is incoherent, both philologically and philosophically. On the question of the study of "design" and "designed things" in human affairs, I have absolutely nothing against research on the subject by sociologists, anthropologists, and others. It is perfectly appropriate to study human "designing," as it is appropriate to study human music-making and war-making and all human things. If a sociologist wants to write a book on the phenomenology of "design" I have no objection and would not stand in his way. But the flip side of this professional respect is that the sociologist, etc., should be equally willing (a) to stand aside when people who are qualified in subjects the sociologist knows nothing about (molecular biology, probability theory, information theory, engineering, etc.) study living systems, or other parts of nature, and try to determine whether they show evidence of design (as opposed to merely the operation of chance and natural laws); and (b) to refrain from accusing those people of a whole shopping list of base political motives for daring to even raise such questions. I don't think that my position on design in nature, as stated here, is unclear, or evasive, or dishonest, or attempts in any way to obscure the issues. If Gregory disagrees with any part of it, he is welcome to state which parts he objects to, and give his reasons. But I would ask him to abstain, in his objections, from *all* motive-mongering -- from all attempts to provide psychological or sociological explanations for why I hold the positions I do -- and to limit his discussion to showing where my publically stated reasons for my conclusions are scientifically, philosophically, or theologically inadequate.Timaeus
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
05:42 AM
5
05
42
AM
PDT
Claudius: My point about "not speaking up" was this: You come here to a pro-ID web site and "correct" an ID supporter by stressing that the view "most DNA is probably useless" was never the consensus of biologists, and is not strictly required by neo-Darwinian theory, but when, over the past several years, Darwinians (both atheist and Christian) have been savagely putting ID people down, all over the web (on this site, on TE sites, and on atheist sites), and one of their standard arguments against design has been "Why would an intelligent designer throw so much useless junk into the DNA?" (again, a sampling of quotations is available in Wells), I didn't see your protest. I didn't hear you saying, "Uh, excuse me, friend, but while I agree with you that ID is a deeply flawed position, this is not an argument you should be using against the ID people, as there is no scientific consensus on the uselessness of non-coding DNA." Your silence suggests that you employ a double standard, allowing loose and unwarranted statements from the Darwinian side that you won't allow from the ID side. If I'm wrong, you can show me by simply pointing out spots on the web where you have made the same "correction" to the kind of Darwinians that Wells has identified. But if I'm right, have the decency to admit that you are going out of your way here to "correct" me when you never took such trouble to correct the others.Timaeus
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
04:37 AM
4
04
37
AM
PDT
Claudius (191): I did not speak of "entailment" in the strict logical sense. My point was (a) that many biologists, for a long time, believed that a large portion of the DNA had no function; (b) that this belief was not *simply* due to the fact that no one at the time knew of any functions (most scientists are not so arrogant about their level of knowledge as to assume that something has no function merely because they don't know what the function is), but was consonant with the mechanism by which evolution was believed to have taken place. If you are a neo-Darwinian, you have strong reason to believe that a significant amount of the genome will house never-used or previously-useful-but-no-longer useful sequences of DNA, which are still there because they are "neutral" as far as selection is concerned. Wells has assembled a number of quotations which shows that many biologists were thinking along these lines. From a design perspective, on the other hand, you would expect very little in the way of unused DNA. Your own statistic show that close to half of those surveyed expected 50% or more of the DNA to be non-functional. Do you really think it likely that the neo-Darwinian narrative of how evolution works had *nothing* to do with that expectation? Especially given that Wells has captured that expectation in quotations, and that his quotations are likely the tip of the iceberg? On the other side, I've already conceded to you that there were biologists who did not jump to conclusions about the uselessness of most DNA. Wells mentions such biologists in his discussion.Timaeus
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
04:23 AM
4
04
23
AM
PDT
Gregory:
Why is it such a difficult proposition for hard-core IDists to realise that ‘intelligence’ is properly a concept for psychology, anthropology and sociology and *not* for biology or geology?
Why is it so hard for Gregory to understand that his diatribe is meaningless? Gregory, we form a design inference wrt biology due to our knowledge of cause and effect relationships- and yes that includes what humans do. Ya see, Gregory, if nature, operating freely could not have produced it, and we know there weren't any humans arpound, but it still meets the design criteria, we just infer it was a non-human who produced it. We do NOT switch to "well it must have been nature because no humans were around"- obvioulsy some other agency was.Joe
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
04:09 AM
4
04
09
AM
PDT
F/N: We have been studying things that are intelligently caused, things that are caused through mechanical necessity and things that are caused through chance, for thousands of years. We have identified certain characteristic signs, and thus can distinguish the three:
1] mechanical necessity, under similar starting conditions, leads to regular outcomes, e.g. a dropped heavy object near earth tends to fall at 9.8 N/kg. Low contingency. 2] chance tends to give rise to stochastic processes that often may be characterised on a statistical distribution and underlying model, e.g. if the above object is a fair die, it will tend to tumble and settle so that its uppermost face is in accord with a flat random distribution. 3] intelligence tends to express purposefulness, and so it tends to give functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, such as the text in this post or the one just above it.
Now, just above, G tried to confine our reasoning on intelligence to humans in action. That is a mistake. First, for say a computer or a computer program, it is by no means enough that one is human to be able to design, the correlates are skill, intelligence and purpose, as well as opportunity. Motive, means and opportunity in short as any detective or courtroom drama novel fan can tell you. Second, let us consider beavers, which adapt their dam designs to all sorts of circumstances in ways that show intelligence. Derivative and genetically passed along so it is instinctual not learned, doubtless, but intelligence all the same. For that matter our own intelligence is similarly derived though it is more flexible, i.e. we can learn and carry out new things that go well beyond mere instinct. The underlying point is, we have no good reason to confine designing intelligence to human intelligence. Being human is neither necessary nor sufficient to be intelligent and designing, whether in limited and built in or more flexible ways. The implied objection fails. And, in failing, it points to how we can look at objects that do not come from human manufacture, and if we see similar sins in them, we would easily and uncontroversially identify such as intelligently produced. Our space battle ships on Mars and the Asteroid belt would be good thought exercises for this. There is no way that, were such discovered, there would be an objection that we cannot project the term intelligent beyond the human circle, nor that we cannot understand or recognise artifacts of another intelligence. That then points to the biggest object we know, the cosmos we observe. As we know from Sir Fred Hoyle and others since the 1950's, its physics is sitting at a finely tuned, complex operating point that makes it habitable for the sort of life we have. Relatively small shifts in parameters, or balances of quantities etc, would render the result radically inhospitable to such life, starting with the resonance responsible for the abundance of C and O. That sort of apparently co-ordinated pattern strongly seems to point to purpose and renders it seriously arguable that the cosmos we live in is designed, and set up to be a habitat for the sort of life we enjoy. That is why Sir Fred Hoyle spoke of monkeying with physics and put-up jobs. he had no difficulties whatsoever pointing to intelligent action beyond the human sphere, and I see no reason why we should. The humans-only objection is specious, and revealing of the objecting mindset we are dealing with. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
02:51 AM
2
02
51
AM
PDT
“My argument obviously has nothing to do with ‘Big ID’ as that article defines it.” - W.J. Murray Then your ‘argument’ has no basis and is better discarded than trying to defend it. If what you’re arguing for is small-id, then first, orthodox Abrahamic believers already defend this position and second, human-made things do not require and largely do not benefit from the concept-duo of ‘intelligence’ plus ‘design’ to explain them. We (meaning human beings) have been studying human-made things for centuries and small-id theory offers us very little worth adding, certainly it does not constitute a ‘scientific revolution’ as Dembski and Meyer have suggested. Do you think small-id can or should constitute a scientific revolution in the study of human-made things, W.J. Murray? That’s an important question if you are actually promoting small-id instead of Big-ID, as you said in #158. “I know that intelligent design as humans employ it…” – W.J. Murray I hate to break it to you, but most people don’t use that small-id jargon. Steve Fuller is one of the very, very few scholars in fields related to human-made things that speaks specifically of ‘intelligent design.’ Do you have an idea of why more scholars don’t adopt the language of small-id? Do you have any suggestions of why the DI abandoned its Summer Program about Big-ID in the Social Sciences and Humanities? Es58 asks a fair question in #164, but it has to do with laws and economics regarding biotech. The same question could be asked of genetic modification or nanotech. The point is that crediting innovation to an identifiable innovator, i.e. a person or research team, differs fundamentally from Big-ID’s hypothesis that a transcendent Designer can be natural scientifically proven using probability theories to have ‘created’ OoL, OoBI and ‘human origins.’ What needs to be understood is the scope of Big-ID, so that it doesn’t turn into a universalist ideology wherein *everything* is Designed, including evil. Though I read it already, Timaeus as usual goes halfway with his claims: “it doesn’t bother me when when [sic] TEs or atheists or others point out the dissimilarities between organic systems and artificial ones, and raise the question whether the inference can be straightforwardly applied.” Exactly. So this is what Timaeus should take up and discuss with W.J. Murray who exports Big-ID theory language to express himself about small-id topics. Timaeus has insisted to me here at UD that Big-ID is focussed on OoL, OoBI and ‘human origins,’ and that it is uninterested in and not relevant to human-made things. This is Timaeus’ insistence. So, now we have someone who challenges Timaeus’ non-IDM (but really wanting to be included in the IDM) view of Big-ID and Timaeus doesn’t have the integrity to face them at UD. What the reasons are for that, none of us can know unless Timaeus addresses them in public? As for “the similarities between organic systems and artificial ones are strong as well…” – this shows how outdated Timaeus’ understanding of life in the electronic-information age actually is. The linguistic turn has shown the importance of language in determining how or what people think. My claim is simple and uncomplicated and it is verified in practice by the DI’s abandonment of small-id in its Summer Program: “This house holds that Big-ID is a category error that is trying to force ‘design’ by ‘intelligence’ into fields of study in which it does not properly belong, i.e. biology and genetics.” Why is it such a difficult proposition for hard-core IDists to realise that 'intelligence' is properly a concept for psychology, anthropology and sociology and *not* for biology or geology? “I somewhere granted something to the effect that big-ID referred to official statements of Discovery etc., and small-id referred to a general affirmation of design. I didn’t mean the distinction as anything grand or eternal, but just as a working distinction in a particular conversation.” – Timaeus Then Timaeus should update us on what he means now. I quoted him in my linked discussion of Big-ID and small-id. Timaeus doesn’t publish anything about Big-ID in an academic setting. If he does, he should tell us. His statement about Big-ID and small-id, if it lacked care and precision, should be clarified and spelled-out more rigourously. Trying squirm away from a distinction he made lacks intellectual integrity, which Timaeus claims to value. “Nobody wants to talk about big versus small ID/id here.” – Timaeus That’s a serious problem that basically says ‘don’t question Big-ID, just believe it’ – ‘don’t think critically, just assent’! Instead, UD folks seemingly want to conflate Big-ID and small-id for ideological ‘movement’ purposes. They don’t want to take seriously the distinctions made by decorated scholars and scientists such as Gingerich. They don’t want to address the legitimate criticisms of Big-ID by folks like Ted Davis and George Murphy. “What people want to talk about is whether intelligent design in nature is detectable.” – Timaeus No, they want to talk about whether Big-ID is ‘detectable.’ Adrian Bejan is your wrestling partner here because he admits that ‘design in nature’ is ‘detectable’ (though he doesn’t use Big-ID preferred language). But for Bejan, ‘design in nature’ requires no designer/Designer, which is unpalatable to almost all Big-ID proponents. Personally, I accept small-d ‘design’ on evidence. Example 1, American voters (s)elected Barack Obama as USA President for a second term. Example 2, the Buss family ‘designed’ the L.A. Lakers to be a title-contending team in 2012-2013 NBA season. Fact: the Lakers are 8-games under .500. Question: Are the L.A. Lakers an ‘intelligently designed’ basketball team? Of course, the answer is both Yes and No - so how does Big-ID theory help us? It doesn't. Big-ID theory has *nothing* to say about it either way. Recognise your limitations and show some humility, IDists! Does KF have a FSCO/I probability calculation for why the Lakers are losing? If so, what’s the specific number? Just the number please, not the half-baked explanation. If you're going to claim scientific authenticity, then at least have the intellectual integrity to try to demonstrate it. Do you not see how ridiculous it becomes when Big-ID ‘in nature’ is taken to its logical conclusion?! “Humans are semiotic beings” – UB Bravo! And what does that have to do with OoL, OoBI or ‘human origins’? Big-ID theory is said to focus on those things, not on semiotics, semantics, syntax or most anything to do human language. Are you suggesting that Big-ID should seek new ground in philology?! “I am trying to help you to understand that your distinction (and Gingerich’s distinction) has not been well thought out.” – StephenB Actually, it’s been thought out better than anything produced within the IDM. We normal folks have simply adopted the term ‘small-id’ to display how conflationary your chosen language actually is. Univocal predication, claimed to be orthodox and yet at the same time denied as having anything to do with a simply natural scientific theory = Big-ID. If StephenB really thinks I am running away from him, let me call him out here yet again. I will offer a voice-recorded debate with StephenB, moderated by a neutral observer to keep time and agreed-upon agenda, under conditions that he would probably agree with, if he had the courage to come out from under his pseudonym and discuss these topics freely. Do people here at UD think StephenB has the courage to accept this challenge? Probably he’ll consider the opportunity for one or two seconds and then relax back into his ‘lawn chair’ of ignorance and denial. “ID proponents are happy to respond to any challenge you might care to throw their way.” – StephenB Bull-tweety. I’ve got a growing list and there are no Big-ID proponents, including the very genial and dignified Bruce Chapman, who are prepared to answer them. @ W.J Murray #174 Not far off, but not exactly right. I wouldn’t call you a ‘useful idiot.’ I don’t know you well enough to say that either way. “you are saying that Big ID, as the well-known proponents advocate, is about classifying a supernatural god as a scientific explanation for … well … everything” – W.J. Murray Not exactly. They sometimes involve theology/worldview and sometimes conveniently leave it out. E.g. Dembski’s 1999 book “ID: THE BRIDGE between Science and Theology.” Nelson, Wells, Meyer and others have ‘leaked’ theological (supernatural God) connections to their Big-ID natural scientific theories in various situations. Surely you know this, W.J. Murray, don’t you? Let’s demonstrate the point. You speak of human-made things as examples of small-id. Give us a few examples then please of human-made things that were not ‘intelligently designed.’ If you're braver, give some examples of things that were not 'Intelligently Designed.' Was the holocaust ‘intelligently designed/Intelligently Designed’? Is the USA’s banking system ‘intelligently designed/Intelligently Designed’ or unintelligently designed/unintelligently Designed’? Is premeditated rape, torture, theft, arson, murder, etc. ‘intelligently designed/Intelligently Designed’? Surely you catch the point by now. Timaeus knows quite well that Big-ID theory, i.e. the theory of Johnson, Behe, Meyer, Nelson, Wells, Dembski, et. al. has *nothing* to do with small-id; it is not a theory that intends to face human-made things. He knows this, but continues to play to IDist fantasies, perhaps as an attempt to become a Big-ID player amongst the leadership that has already passed him by. As such, W.J. Murray, your appropriation of small-id ‘intelligent design’ as you use it in the OP is deceptive. It suggests that Big-ID is actually relevant or analogous to small-id, when logically it is not. By showing that this is not the case, I’ve blown up your linguistic illusion. Timaeus knows this, because he is a smart guy and a scholar and has studied Big-ID quite carefully. But because in his heart of hearts he seeks to be an IDist and because he not only tries to protect intellectual honesty but at the same time to promote a radical/unorthodox theory for the 'natural sciences' (even if he doesn't insist on this), which Big-ID/IDM leaders claim it to be, he is stuck in a position in which he cannot or will not humble himself to argue with his fellow ideologues. Timaeus is thus ‘happily allowing’ people to abuse communication; iow, to speak out both sides of their mouths at the same time. Big-ID and small-id constitute a significant and meaningful difference. Could it be that folks at UD who unhesitatingly endorse the IDM would recognise this careful and well-explained distinction? Again, be welcome to visit my blog and throw any thoughtful objections or criticisms you have there because I’ll speak more openly there than here at Big-ID central! Here one gets dog-piled as an idiot for even hinting that Big-ID theory might be an exaggeration or worse, untrue. p.s. does KN not wish to reciprocate to someone who acknowledges his organism/artefact distinction simply because that person has outgrown ‘naturalism’?! I do hope to visit Kaliningrad sometime in the near future and to visit I.K.’s turf. There’s enough German philosophy among the leadership here to suggest that Anglo-American ideas such as Big-ID might not be enough to reach a person in their ‘disenchanted’ core…save for post-atheist discoveries to the East.Gregory
January 24, 2013
January
01
Jan
24
24
2013
12:16 AM
12
12
16
AM
PDT
F/N: Time to return this thread to its proper focus, a simple test case on reliable empirical detection or recognition of design (with possibilities of identifying a metric model and from that devising a quantitative test). It seems to me, first of all, that the Big vs Little ID distinction being advanced above is useful only for rhetorical and distractive reasons. The best way to answer it is to go back to basics, in light of the underlying history of ideas and issues of empirically grounded scientific warrant. So, secondly, we need to focus on the fundamental challenge of empirical warrant. Where, since C18, science has increasingly sought to reconstruct the past based on signs in the present; using approaches that boil down to inference to best explanation on processes shown, observed -- or, assumed -- to be causally adequate to produce and characteristic of such signs in the present. This, for instance, is more or less how Lyell argued for uniformitarian Geology. In that context, Darwin extended the approach to biology. About a hundred years ago, that also was extended to astrophysics, with as a precursor the suggestions on how a solar system could be created by condensing disks vs pulling out a filament from a star by a brush with another nearby star. That is how the old world, old life picture that so dominates our contemporary view was built up. In parallel with this, we have had the increasing rise of the view that natural -- blind/purposeless processes of mechanical necessity and chance from plausible initial circumstances should be the primary or sole means of explanation used in science. Indeed we find today statements to the effect that this is the definition of scientific methods and even of science. This is a step too far, as it is a gateway for injection of a priori materialist ideology that subverts science from being an open minded open ended empirical evidence led pursuit of the credibly warranted truth about our world, including in the remote and unobserved past. That last point is also an important epistemological limitation: we did not observe nor do we have generally accepted records from the remote past, all is reconstruction on a model timeline cumulatively built up and accepted by consensus rather than any truly direct comparison with the actual facts that happened. In short, we see here how origins science can easily be subverted in support of materialist ideology, which ideology has been an increasing factor over the past two centuries as well. At the same time, we also know that design exists in the world, and that it tends to leave characteristic, observable traces. That needs not be the case, but it is often the case. So, it is relevant to ask questions along lines pointed out by Plato in his The laws, Bk X, on signs of causation by nature [blind chance + necessity] vs by ART. Where the ART-ificial may leave signs that reliably point to its action. That is where WJM's battleship vs a pile of rocks, presumably full of iron ore, comes from. There is an obvious, even blatant difference. What is it? Apart from the processing that has transformed the ore into specific Iron based alloys -- note, meteoritic iron alloys "fallen from the sky" exist, but controlled composition and co-ordinated processing that yield specific useful properties is a matter of high art -- the battleship shows massive contrivance. For, it is functionally organised in highly specific and complex ways, towards a purpose or goal that may be evident from its structure and function. Just like Paley's watch on the heath vs a stone. by extension, too, if we were to come across an avalanche on mars, and at its foot, what is evidently a spacecraft, with heavy armour plating, weapons turrets and magazines, with co-ordinating control centres, propulsion systems etc, we would immediately infer that we were looking at a space-faring version of the same basic concept, a battleship. But, again, what would make these different from, say, a pile of meteoritic iron blobs? Functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, pointing to contrivance. But, but, but, that leaves out an absolutely important issue, namely that living systems reproduce, and can mutate giving rise to evolution! Thus surfaces one of the longest standing strawman talking points in this whole field of investigation and discussion. What do you mean by that? I am of course pointing out how there is a lot of discussion on how Paley blundered by failing to address a key disanalogy between machinery and living forms. This is wrong, grossly and culpably wrong. In fact, by Ch II of his 1806 work (and notice, this is a generation AFTER Hume so it would have been reasonable to have expected Paley to answer the disanalogy argument, and any fair review of Paley should therefore address this . . . ], we may simply read how he extended his watch example through an in-principle thought exercise:
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch should after some time discover that, in addition to all the properties which he had hitherto observed in it, it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself -- the thing is conceivable; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts -- a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools -- evidently and separately calculated for this purpose . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance, and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done -- for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art . . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair -- the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use.
Paley of course was at least a generation too early to have advantage of Babbage's work and over a century too early to have had that of von Neumann's work on kinematic self replicating automata. But he nailed the heart of the matter: self replication is a further instance of contrivance, not a disanalogy to it. We may then multiply this insight by using one of the results from von Neumann et al, namely, that the stored information controlling the universal constructor is a pivotal issue that has to be explained, in the context of the implied irreducibly complex system. This of course brings the origin of life conundrum for a priori materialist blind chance and mechanical necessity driven paradigms to centre stage. And no, this cannot be artificially severed from the onward development of life forms that requires explanation of further increments of such information. We here deal with the root of Darwin's famous tree of life. (In context, it is highly instructive to me that the only illustration in Darwin's Origin, the Tree of Life, would have no tracing back to the obviously required root. No root, no shoot and no branches, period.) In short the disanalogy argument fails and has failed ever since 1806, but has been propped up through a strawman tactic that counted on the inaccessibility of Paley's actual onward argument in Ch II as outlined. That brings us to the issue firmly put on the table by Wicken and Orgel in the 1970's as results and challenges for OOL research, not soundly answered from an a priori materialist perspective to this day, a full generation later:
ORGEL, 1973: . . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. [[The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189.] WICKEN, 1979: ‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [[originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [[“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
Thus, pace the objections above and elsewhere, we see the central importance of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] in understanding distinguishing characteristics of life forms. (We also see where the term comes from -- citation of Wicken in TMLO -- and also a historic root of the more general term often used by Dembski et al, Specified complexity and/or complex specified information. Note WmAD has emphasised that in biological systems, the specification is cashed out in terms of function, in various ways. So, FSCO/I, and onwards particularly digitally coded functionally specific complex information, dFSCI, are where the crux of the matter lies.) Disanalogy arguments, from Paley to von Neumann, cannot properly be used to sweep FSCO/I off the table. And, the OOL context, where there was no pre-existing code based, information controlled replication system, is shown to be pivotal. Indeed, that is the exact context where these issues emerged, once the molecular biology results had come in from the early 1950's to 70's. And, the explanation of the root of the tree of life will then be pivotal to explaining the onward branching and diversification across body plans. So, the issue we are looking at is absolutely pivotal and potentially revolutionary. This is no mere backwater side issue that can be brushed aside as irrelevant and useless. Now, let us extend our space battleship thought exercise. It is 2080, and we are in initial stages of exploring the Asteroid belt, now with a global space consortium under UN auspices, say. A nickel-iron asteroid with a cluster of close by heavy metal and rare metal asteroids is discovered. In exploring it, we see a similar battleship, and suddenly we begin to understand the robotic instrumentation in certain parts of the previous ship, for here we find a wrecked ship that was in the process of replicating itself and evidently was using a von Neumann self replication mechanism. Right next to the wreck, which has an obviously targetted hole through it, we find a partially completed vessel of obviously similar design, and ewe find idled robots that had been at work. Tracing back, we find advanced programming systems and information storage units that guided the robots in accordance with a blueprint. there are even foundry facilities that seem to make exotic alloys and materials using nanotechnologies. Now, you tell me that under these circumstances, the scientists involved in the exhibition will draw the conclusion that the space ships were now proved NOT to have been designed, as the existence of a self replicating mechanism proves that they must somehow have spontaneously evolved from meteoric materials as a strange life form, and that the origin of the complex functional form can be explained on survival of the fittest. Do you see how hollow disanalogy arguments sound to people with an engineering or applied science background, once we see the issue of FSCO/I coming to bear? That is why Denton's point in his Evolution, a theory in crisis, from 1985 is still so relevant:
To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter [[so each atom in it would be “the size of a tennis ball”] and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines . . . . We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices used for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction . . . . However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equaled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours . . . . Unlike our own pseudo-automated assembly plants, where external controls are being continually applied, the cell's manufacturing capability is entirely self-regulated . . . . [[Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, Adler, 1986, pp. 327 – 331.]
The bottomline is that, on billions of test cases, without good counterinstance, we know the characteristic cause of FSCO/I. Design. Unless and until it has been shown that blind chance and mechanical necessity can effectively give rise to such systems, we have every epistemic right to infer that FSCO/I is a reliable signs of design as cause. And, the strategy of applying sampling theory to give us a threshold of complexity beyond which the explicit or implied info in an object could not credibly have come about by chance, is then a reasonable model and metric: Chi_500 = I*S = 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold. Where we can give some biological results in light of the Durston et al results, discussed in the just linked:
RecA: 242 AA, 832 fits, Chi: 332 bits beyond SecY: 342 AA, 688 fits, Chi: 188 bits beyond Corona S2: 445 AA, 1285 fits, Chi: 785 bits beyond
Finally, observe: at no point in my discussion has there been an inference to the supernatural, just to intelligence. That is, the "injecting the [irrational and chaotic] supernatural into science" talking point is a strawman, laced with ad hominems and often set alight with further incendiary remarks about right wing theocratic conspiracies aimed art imposing fascism. (But, BTW, fascism is actually a STATIST -- thus leftist -- ideology [one pivoting on the emergence of a nihilistic Nietzschean superman political messiah gifted and anointed to deliver the victim group in the face of allegedly unprecedented crisis . . . ], as can be seen from the thought roots of Mussolini and the very name of the analogue in Germany, the National Socialist German Workers Party.) That strawman, too, needs to be laid to rest. So, now, can we deal with the pivotal issue on the table, on its scientific merits? KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
11:38 PM
11
11
38
PM
PDT
#190 The accurate dissemination of scientific data is obviously of little concern. As I stated, frankly, nothing else was expected. People do what profits them.Upright BiPed
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
11:25 PM
11
11
25
PM
PDT
Timaeus @ 189
... a good number of biologists believed that a very large percentage of noncoding DNA was leftovers from the evolutionary process, and no longer served (and perhaps in some cases never did serve) any function. There were doubtless dissenters from this view, but it was not a negligible view, and *it was used regularly in creationism/ID/Darwinism/TE debates as an argumentative point*: “An intelligent designer wouldn’t have made DNA 90% junk.” And *not once* during those debates did “Claudius” — whoever he is — speak up and criticize the atheist or TE Darwinists who were making that argument against ID or creationist folks, to remind them that the “junk” status of most DNA was far from generally accepted. Yet he summons up the courage to speak up now. I wonder why he’s suddenly so brave?
That was not a serious point was it, Timaeus? Who did or did not speak up whenever or wherever is simply irrelevant to the question of whether a "random mutations" perspective, as held by mainstream biology, entails that research into functions for junk DNA will be profitless. CheersCLAVDIVS
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
11:07 PM
11
11
07
PM
PDT
Hi Timaeus @ 187
Wells did his homework on what the scientists were saying before he wrote about it. And many of them did believe that a large amount of the non-coding DNA was functionless, and many of them did couch that belief in terms of evolutionary theory.
True. And many other scientists believed non-coding DNA had function, and looked into it. This undermines your point that a "random mutations" perspective, as held by mainstream science, entails that research into non-coding DNA functionality will be profitless.
So there *is* still a strong expectation among many population geneticists that we should expect a fair bit of crud in the genome.
And there is still the opposite expectation amongst other biologists that much, if not all, of the genome is functional. Opinion is divided, and has been ever since junk DNA was discovered. For example, here are the results of a 2008 survey asking "How much of our genome could be deleted without any significant effect on our species?" (n=595): 15% - None 18% - less than 10% 16% - between 11% and 49% 12% - between 50% and 74% 13% - between 75% and 89% 23% - 90% or more CheersCLAVDIVS
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
11:01 PM
11
11
01
PM
PDT
Hi Upright BiPed @ 185
Have scientists proposed (generally among themselves) uses for junk DNA along the way? Sure, while they happily allowed prominent ideologues to subvert actual scientific knowledge and openly sell it to the public and media at large, including any students who would be taking up the profession, as well as attacking anyone who challenged them on the matter.
That's irrelevant to Timaeus' point and my challenge to that point. Timaeus stated "... a “random mutations” perspective would suggest that there would be lots of junk left over in the noncoding part of genome ... and so long hours spent searching for uses would likely be profitless." Yet the documentation shows that research into functions for "junk" DNA has never been stifled in mainstream science. So Timaeus' point is simply incorrect. CheersCLAVDIVS
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
10:35 PM
10
10
35
PM
PDT
Mung: In the future, would you do us the courtesy of ADDRESSING the person your remarks are aimed at, so that we can all tell if you are responding to us, or to someone else? Without nested replies, you could be responding to any of the previous 10 posts. Nonethless, I infer, from the contents, that your remark was probably aimed at me. Yes, I am well aware that biology textbooks will speak of "function." The difficulty, of course, is that "function" in the human sphere overlaps with the idea of "purpose," whereas the whole point of Darwinism is that in living things you get function without purpose. So the biology textbooks do a careful dance, allowing function-language, but guarding very carefully lest it spill over into purpose-language. But sometimes their policing is incomplete. The language of "machine" is a particular problem for the Darwinists. Etymologically, *machina* suggests contrivance and hence purpose. Of course, we might imagine that a particular set of molecules *functions* as a machine without having been created by foresight, and that is usually what biologists mean when they speak of "molecular machines." But the subtle aroma of foresight or design clings to the word. And I don't think this is avoidable; I think it's in the nature of biological systems to at least *look* as if they are end-driven, and the language of machines, contrivances, purposes, etc. will always suggest itself to the human mind. The atheists would wish it otherwise -- if only they could get rid of that darned illusion of purposiveness which goes along with the purposeless phenomenon we call life! But they can't. In any case, I wasn't speaking hear about such grand philosophical matters as the difference between function and purpose. I was speaking of the narrower meaning of biological function, such as would be accepted by an atheist. And the issue was that, in that narrower meaning, a good number of biologists believed that a very large percentage of noncoding DNA was leftovers from the evolutionary process, and no longer served (and perhaps in some cases never did serve) any function. There were doubtless dissenters from this view, but it was not a negligible view, and *it was used regularly in creationism/ID/Darwinism/TE debates as an argumentative point*: "An intelligent designer wouldn't have made DNA 90% junk." And *not once* during those debates did "Claudius" -- whoever he is -- speak up and criticize the atheist or TE Darwinists who were making that argument against ID or creationist folks, to remind them that the "junk" status of most DNA was far from generally accepted. Yet he summons up the courage to speak up now. I wonder why he's suddenly so brave?Timaeus
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
08:42 PM
8
08
42
PM
PDT
The notion of function is an integral part of thinking in biology as well as in technology. Traits and organs of organisms as well as technical artifacts and their components have or are attributed functions. - Functions in Biological and Artificial Worlds
Mung
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
07:23 PM
7
07
23
PM
PDT
Claudius: It seems that you have not read Jonathan Wells's book on junk DNA. I suggest you have a look at it. It references over 500 peer-reviewed scientific articles. Wells did his homework on what the scientists were saying before he wrote about it. And many of them did believe that a large amount of the non-coding DNA was functionless, and many of them did couch that belief in terms of evolutionary theory. That there were a number of scientists who were driven by empiricism rather than dogma, and accepted that there might be many functions found for some of the alleged "junk," I don't deny. I praise all scientists of that sort. You should also note that among the TE Darwinists, the reaction to the recent announcement (on the functionality of most junk DNA) was one of hostility. The scientists who made the announcement were accused by Ph.D.-in-biology commenters on BioLogos of grandstanding and exaggerating, and almost of co-ordinated fraud, and hardcore neo-Darwinist Dennis Venema immediately embarked on a series of columns aimed at damage control. So there *is* still a strong expectation among many population geneticists that we should expect a fair bit of crud in the genome.Timaeus
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
07:14 PM
7
07
14
PM
PDT
So let me see if I have this right. It's ok to look for divine purpose in the fine-tuning of the universe, but once life appears on the scene, no more divine purpose allowed. It's ok to envision the entire cosmos as a giant machine, an artifact, but when it comes to organisms, that's a big no no. IOW, there's just something that is so radically different about living organisms that we for sure need a God-did-it, but there's no evidence for that fact, and once these specially created non-artifacts appeared, freshly made by God, God must once again retreat into the mists of ignorance. Is that it?Mung
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
07:01 PM
7
07
01
PM
PDT
#184 “The amount of DNA in organisms is more than is strictly necessary for building them: A large fraction of the DNA is never translated into protein. From the point of view of the individual organism this seems paradoxical. If the ‘purpose’ of DNA is to supervise the building of bodies, it is surprising to find a large quantity of DNA which does no such thing. Biologists are racking their brains trying to think what useful task this apparently surplus DNA is doing. But from the point of view of the selfish genes themselves, there is no paradox. The true ‘purpose’ of DNA is to survive, no more and no less. The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite, or at best a harmless but useless passenger, hitching a ride in the survival machines created by the other DNA.” Richard Dawkins, 1976, The Selfish Gene, p. 47 That was 36 years ago. Have scientists proposed (generally among themselves) uses for junk DNA along the way? Sure, while they happily allowed prominent ideologues to subvert actual scientific knowledge and openly sell it to the public and media at large, including any students who would be taking up the profession, as well as attacking anyone who challenged them on the matter. This was done without apology and will always and forever remain wthout recognition by those invested in the subversion.Upright BiPed
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
06:58 PM
6
06
58
PM
PDT
Timaeus @ 179
I think that ID is now moving beyond that point. If we ask, for example, what would the comparative predictions be for random mutations versus design, regarding “junk DNA,” we see that a design perspective would bid investigators to experiment for yet-unknown uses of apparent genomic “junk,” whereas a “random mutations” perspective would suggest that there would be lots of junk left over in the noncoding part of genome (which would be preserved because it was harmless, even though it did no good), and so long hours spent searching for uses would likely be profitless. Now, empirical evidence indicates that a much larger proportion of the “junk” than anyone imagined serves (noncoding but) important functions in the life of the organism. So the design perspective is a clear winner on that prediction.
Actually, there has never, ever been consensus amongst mainstream scientists that junk DNA is mostly useless, or that time spent searching for its function would be profitless. Even before Ohno coined the term "junk DNA" in 1973, biologists were proposing numerous possible functions for newly discovered non-coding DNA -- c.f. Bostock, C. (1971) “Repetitious DNA” Advances in Cell Biology 2: 153-223. Many, many more papers appeared over subsequent decades describing the expectation that much “junk” DNA actually has function e.g. 1974 — E. Southern, “Eukaryotic DNA” in MTP International Review of Science, Biochemistry Series One, Volume 6, Biochemistry of Nucleic Acids, (1974) University Park Press, Baltimore. pp. 101 – 139 1977 — D.M. Skinner, “Satellite DNAs” BioScience 27 (1977) pp. 790-796 1980 — Orgel & Crick, Nature (284: 604-607), p. 606 1982 — R. Lewin, “Repeated DNA still in search of a function” Science 217 (1982) pp. 621-623 etc. Which is why, of course, mainstream scientists have continued for decades to look for function in "junk" DNA and, indeed, have found it. CheersCLAVDIVS
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
06:08 PM
6
06
08
PM
PDT
Timaeus, I was just trying to see if I understood the nature of Gregory's position. BTW, I greatly enjoy your posts.William J Murray
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
05:53 PM
5
05
53
PM
PDT
Gregory:
Fine-tuning is a separate issue, which many small-id believers accept. One needn’t ‘believe’ in Big-ID to accept fine-tuning.
big l, big o, big l According to Gregory, Big ID is, by definition, about God's purposes.
b) Intelligent Design (often capitalized) as a claim that divine purpose can be discerned (at least partly) from scientific observation, & that the idea of design should be made part of scientific theories.”
Leaving aside for now the questionable truth of the above assertion, if the fine-tuning argument isn't about divine purpose, what is it about?
...the basic problem with Big-ID: it claims ‘design in nature’ can be ‘scientifically proven’ whereas most people don’t agree.
You forgot to capitalize the d in design. And here I thought the problem was that it was trying to sneak in God's purposes.Mung
January 23, 2013
January
01
Jan
23
23
2013
05:13 PM
5
05
13
PM
PDT
1 7 8 9 10 11 16

Leave a Reply