Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An Open Challenge to Neo-Darwinists: What Would It Take to Falsify Your Theory?

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A criticism which neo-Darwinists have frequently made of Intelligent Design is that it is not a “scientific” theory. ID, they say, explains the bacterial flagellum by saying “God [sic] made it”. However, they complain, it doesn’t say when God made it, how God made it, what material substrate God was acting on when he made it, etc. It therefore gives scientists nothing to go on, nothing to work with, nothing on which they can base experiments which could confirm or disconfirm the explanation.

In contrast, they believe, Darwinian explanations give scientists something to work on. The hypothesis that the flagellum slowly evolved, through a series of intermediate, functional steps, allows for testing. One can look for possible intermediate steps, e.g., the Type III secretory system, and confirm whether or not they exist in nature. One can study mutation rates and reproduction rates of bacteria, and calculate how many mutations have probably occurred over any given length of time, to see if enough time was available for the evolution of a flagellum, and so on. Thus, in their minds, Darwinism is a scientific theory, whereas ID is not.

It is clear that this line of argument presupposes a particular criterion for what makes an explanation scientific. To be scientific, a proposal, hypothesis or theory must be testable. We must be able to find evidence in nature that could confirm or disconfirm it.

Some ID critics narrow this down further, and say that scientific theories must be falsifiable. That is, ID cannot expect to be taken seriously as a scientific theory unless it is willing to specify a set of observations (taken directly from nature or resulting from experiments) that could prove it to be wrong.  ID must say what it would take to falsify the existence of the proposed Intelligent Designer.

Now there has been a long debate over whether falsifiability is a good criterion to apply to scientific theories. The most frequently cited champion of falsifiability is of course Karl Popper, and as everyone here knows, many philosophers of science have disputed Popper’s claims. I do not propose to enter into the arguments here. I will say only that I find falsifiability, if not an absolute requirement of any scientific theory, at least a highly desirable element in a scientific theory, and I will refer readers to Popper’s writings if they want a detailed justification of this. A brief justification, in Popper’s own words, is available on-line.

For the purpose of my challenge here, however, my own view on falsification is irrelevant.  Here I am going to agree, not out of personal conviction but purely for the sake of argument, with those neo-Darwinians who insist that scientific theories must be falsifiable. But then I am going to ask them to apply that standard to their own theory. I am going to ask them whether neo-Darwinism is itself falsifiable. I believe it is not, and that therefore, by their own criterion, it does not qualify as science.

Now I know that when this argument has been made in the past, neo-Darwinians have issued a standard answer.  They say that Darwinian evolution is easily falsifiable. All one has to do is find a Cambrian rabbit, or any other fossil that is so far out of sequence that the creature in question cannot have evolved by stepwise Darwinian means. This, however, for reasons given by others, is not an adequate answer. Many ID proponents have no problem with the notion of common descent. They have no problem with the notion that one creature has been used as the basis of a subsequent and more advanced creature. They therefore do not reject “evolution”, and they have no desire to find a Cambrian rabbit or a Jurassic monkey. What they reject is the Darwinian “chance plus natural selection” explanation of evolution. So what neo-Darwinians are being asked, when they are being asked about falsification, is not “What would falsify common descent?” It is: “What would falsify your theory that small, incremental steps, which occur due to genetic accidents, can be combined into useful new structures, up to and including the creation of entirely new functional body plans?”

This is the question that I am putting to neo-Darwinists today. What would it take to falsify your belief, for example, that land creatures are ultimately modified fish, transformed by slow, tiny and wholly fortuitous steps from gill-breathers to lung-breathers? What genetic, developmental, or other evidence would you accept as a demonstration that fish could not have become land-dwelling creatures via purely Darwinian means? What genetic, developmental or other evidence would you accept as a demonstration that the camera eye could not have developed by purely Darwinian means?

When ID people read Darwinian literature, we get the strong impression that Darwinians do not ask whether Darwinian means are capable of producing their alleged effects. They appear to be asking only how Darwinian means did so. And when one possible evolutionary pathway is shown to be impossible on scientific grounds, another pathway, always within Darwinian assumptions, is put forward to replace it. At no point, as far as we can see, do Darwinians ever say: “Well, maybe we have been wrong all along. Maybe Darwinian explanation cannot account for evolutionary change.” And so, when we read in Darwinian polemics that ID is “unscientific” because it will not commit itself to any model of the designer’s action specific enough to be falsified, we are rather irritated by the apparent double standard, because we have not seen such a falsifiable model in the Darwinist literature.

So, again, here is the challenge to neo-Darwinians: What would it take for you to concede, not just that this or that proposed evolutionary pathway is wrong, but that the entire Darwinian explanation of evolutionary change is wrong? What evidence would it take for you to concede that small, random, stepwise changes cannot produce the specific macroevolutionary effects that the fossil record appears to record? And the corollary question is: If you are unwilling to specify in advance what it would take to falsify neo-Darwinian mechanisms, are you willing, here and now, either to admit that neo-Darwinism is not a scientific theory, or to drop the requirement of falsifiability which you have laid upon ID?

Comments
Adel DiBagno:
Just off the top of my head - observational data: A whale fossil is found at a geological stratum dated prior to the appearance of the putative land mammal ancestor.
I would love it if this were taken off the top of your head and placed on formal documentation. Can anybody give body to DiBagno's memory?bFast
February 24, 2009
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Thomas Cudworth [75]:
What experimental or observational data could cause a Darwinian to say: “I used to believe that RM + NS could turn a land mammal into a whale in 10 million years, but now I no longer believe that this is possible”?
Sorry to intrude, but this is too easy (It's another rabbit in the Cambrian challenge.) Just off the top of my head - observational data: A whale fossil is found at a geological stratum dated prior to the appearance of the putative land mammal ancestor.Adel DiBagno
February 24, 2009
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And BTW the inheritance of acquired characteristics does NOT provide evidence against the theory of evolution. If you think so please read: "Evolution in Four Dimensions" and your misconceptions will be revealed.Joseph
February 24, 2009
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Khan, I have said it before and you have chosen to ignore it- so here it is AGAIN: The way Allen MacNeill uses "macroevolution" not even young earth creationists deny it. I posted this on this blog AND on Allen's blog. And it came as no surprise that Allen didn't pay any attention to it. So perhaps YOU should learn what is being debated. That way YOU could actually have something relevant to say about it.Joseph
February 24, 2009
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The theory of evolution has been mathematically disproven in the peer-reviewed paper "Waiting for two mutations: with applications to regulatory sequence evolution and the limits of Darwinian evolution" This paper demonstrates the constraints on just getting a new specific binding site. And with universal common descent not only are new specified binding sites required, but so are new genes, promoters, enhancers, repressors and all other meta-information required to get this new stuff into the existing combinatorial logic. The fact that evolutionists are still trying to salvage the loss just demonstrates there isn't anything that would falsify it.Joseph
February 24, 2009
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Brian Stephens (#45): Good point. I am really making two different complaints, and I have sometimes blurred them together. Let me restate: 1. Darwinists ASSUME that RM + NS (with scraps of other mechanisms) are capable of generating all the forms of life. 2. They then propose hypothetical evolutionary pathways for specific cases. My complaint about #2 is that, while Darwinists admit that in principle any particular hypothetical pathway could be falsified, the pathways are rarely given in full enough detail to be rigorously testable. In short, Darwinian evolutonary proposals are too speculative and qualitative, and not nearly as empirical and quantitative as they should be. I don’t want to hear, for the umpteenth time, how a light-sensistive spot might have retreated into a depression, and then could have been accidentally covered over by some semi-transparent skin which later could have become a lens, etc. I want to see specific mechanisms for all of these changes in terms of particular point mutations along the genome, and related developmental changes. I want to see checkable numbers given for mutation rates, I want full lists of ecological competitors inhabiting the Ordovician ocean, I want accurate CO2 and ultra-violet levels and other relevant environmental data over the period of time in question, etc. Most such details are lacking in Darwinian accounts. We can’t test the efficacy of RM + NS if we don’t have precise information regarding both the mutation side and the selection side. My complaint about #1 is that, because the adequacy of RM + NS is an assumption for Darwinists rather than a theory or hypothesis, it is never subjected to the normal procedure of scientific testing. It should be at all times treated as a hypothesis subject to testing and falsification. And further, as proof of their intellectual integrity, the Darwinists should be willing to propose potential falsifying situations themselves. I haven’t noticed them doing this.Thomas Cudworth
February 24, 2009
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B. L. Harville (#23): You wrote: “There is a simple idea in philosophy which says that if something does happen then it can happen. Descent with modification does happen, therefore descent with modification can happen.” Your main premise is sound, but your second, inductive premise is unsound. We do not know that “descent with modification” happens, unless you are equivocating. The “descent with modification” that is verified (the development of longer beaks, new moth colors, etc.) is much more modest than the “descent with modification” which Darwinists claim has occurred. We certainly do not “know” that all the phyla in the Cambrian explosion descended via modification from marine worms or sponges. It is precisely that speculative extension from finch beaks to radical new body plans which critics of Darwinism are questioning.Thomas Cudworth
February 24, 2009
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B. L. Harville (#6): I wasn’t speaking of falsifying “evolution”, but of falsifying the neo-Darwinian explanation for evolution. Evolution might have many other explanations, e.g., Lamarckian explanations, vitalistic explanations, theistic explanations. I’m interested in knowing where Darwinians would lay their theory on the line, and say, “If X proves to be true, then our proposed mechanism will be falsified”. The analogy with atomic theory, so beloved of Darwinists, is a poor one. If atomic theory collapsed, all of modern science would have to be re-thought. If Darwinism were disproved tomorrow, nay, even if a Cambrian rabbit were found tomorrow and common descent itself were thus disproved, all of physics, chemistry, and astronomy would be untouched. Also 90% of the life sciences would be untouched, and 100% of practically useful biology would be untouched. (See the article by Dr. Skell, NAS member, on another recent thread here.) The evolutionary biologists would have to find another line of work (no significant loss to society there), the paleontologists would need to develop a new theory to account for discontinuities, and the population geneticists would have to re-frame their empirical data, telling a different “cover narrative” to go with it, but genome sequencing, medical research, studies in embryonic development, ecological studies, etc. would still go on much as they did before. A six-day fundamentalist, with proper biochemical training, can sequence a genome as well as Jerry Coyne can. The amount of mercury in Great Lakes fish tissues can be determined just as well by an ID-trained freshwater toxicologist as by a Darwinian one. The 3-D structure of a protein can be determined by a devotee of Bergsonian vitalism as well as by Francis Collins. Indeed, the main noticeable change that would occur, were Darwinism to fall, would not be scientific at all, but cultural: “science” would cease to be used ideologically, to attack “religion”. That would be a huge social gain. I didn’t claim that falsifying Darwinism would prove ID. However, it is wrong to say that only catching an intelligent designer in the act can verify design. I don’t have to travel to the factory where my computer is made to be sure that it is an intelligently designed object. Nor do I need to catch the builders of the pyramids or of Notre Dame cathedral in the act to be sure that those monuments were designed. I know that such things could not have been produced by unaided nature, not in a million or a billion or a trillion years. Design of a certain degree of integrated complexity rules out chance causation, and implies either the direct action of an intelligent agent or a built-in bias in nature toward the formation of complex design (i.e., front-loading), which (unless you accept “fluke” or “multiverse” as legitimate scientific explanations) amounts to the indirect action of an intelligent agent.Thomas Cudworth
February 24, 2009
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Jerry:
Larmarck is about passing on acquired characteristics. Darwin is about selecting those characteristics to produce differential offspring. There is nothing contradictory about this.
Lamarack is about passing on learned or trained characteristics. Lamarack is about controlling what characteristics get passed on by working out in the gym. I still do not see it as a serious challenge to darwin orthodoxy if a dna-based mechanism exists that passes on specific learning, or specific training. I don't see any difficulty developing a neo-Darwinian just-so story explaining how such a mechanism came about. That said, I understand that cold-war Soviet Union scientists explored Lamarackan evolution extensively. (I think they figured they could make better soldiers, and better olympians.) They found little support for it. I doubt if there is a strong Lamarickan mechanism.bFast
February 24, 2009
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Thomas Cudworth, There is a whole theory out there about the cultural aspects of Lamarckian evolution. We certainly do pass down to our children and to our peers our accomplishments, our learning and often much of our fortunes. It is both horizontal and vertical. It certainly is not genetic but it is obvious that it happens and natural selection works in this cultural world. It also works in the animal world too but obviously not to the same extent. Animals learn and their culture changes because of it. It is so obvious and of no threat to any world view that it does not get discussed but it is a type of evolution and it has its extinctions too. Relative to neo Darwinism, there are some things that might be related to stress that might get in to some gametes and affect evolution. So Lamarckian processes are not completely ruled out. Just the smith's calluses. As I said earlier, neo Darwinism evolves and we often are not debating the latest version of it.jerry
February 24, 2009
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Jerry (#78): I see what you mean. I guess I wasn't clear because I was using "Darwinism" in a narrow sense. By "Darwinism" I meant orthodox neo-Darwinian theory, which up until recently denied the possibility of Lamarckian mechanisms (though Darwin himself flirted with them to some degree). I think that once you open the door to Lamarckianism, you can't control how wide it will open, and I think neo-Darwinians will fight against it tooth and nail. They will see it as at least a partial disconfirmation of pure-milk Darwinism. This was Mark Frank's point, and this is the point that I was accepting from him. But yes, you could combine a bit of Lamarckianism and a lot of chance, as Darwin himself did in a few passages. A tad of Lamarckianism could be incorporated into a Darwinian superstructure.Thomas Cudworth
February 24, 2009
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I just saw that bfast and I have some similar thoughts on Lamarck and Darwin so what I added is to just reaffirm some of what bfast said on this. Of course Lamarck and Darwin had no idea of what heredity is about. But to reemphasize, the passing on of acquired characteristics and natural selection can live quite happily with each other. It is just that the passing on of acquired characteristics is iffy at the genome level.jerry
February 24, 2009
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Mark Frank (#77): You've met the letter of the challenge. Now re-read #75 and meet the spirit of it.Thomas Cudworth
February 24, 2009
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"I agree that any proof that acquired characteristics could be passed on would seriously damage Darwinism." I do not agree with this. This is just another way of changing the gamete and would be considered along the various forms of mutation. Natural selection would then act on the gametes of the offspring. Larmarck is about passing on acquired characteristics. Darwin is about selecting those characteristics to produce differential offspring. There is nothing contradictory about this.jerry
February 24, 2009
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Re #75 Thomas Can you confirm that I have met your challenge as originally stated? That's all I want to know. Thanks MarkMark Frank
February 24, 2009
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Thomas Cudworth, It might be best if we actually specify just what they think nde is instead of using popular versions of what the theory is. There is no way one will ever falsify natural selection because very simply it happens. And a lot of those who defend neo Darwinism or whatever the latest version of the synthesis believe that natural selection is the key element of neo Darwinism. Some believe sort of that within a population gene pool there are the possible combinations to get the remarkable changes that Darwin thought he could get. Witness Darwin's emphasis on artificial selection and the world's experience with the breeding of dogs and other animals. So given enough time, natural selection will give you a Labrador Retriever or something even much different than this. They then expand the gene pool by adding mutations so that time and natural selection can ferret out even more combinations not available to the breeder. But no one in the current evolutionary biology crowd believes this is enough so we should go to where they think the novelty is coming from. From what I have read recently they believe the source for novelty is not in the constant shuffling of the genes through sexual recombination and natural selection and mutations working its wonders over time. They don't believe this. They believe that the source of novelty is non coding DNA that is left to change in various ways over time and eventually some of these changes will become useful and when it does, it will add to the gene pool and then become available to selection. And it won't necessarily be a gradual event. I believe two theories of this are gene duplication which already has a functional protein and since it is not being used, it can become something else, a modification of a working tool. A second way are that retroposons are the source of the novelty. According to wikipedia "Retroposition accounts for approximately 10,000 gene-duplication events in the human genome, of which approximately 10% are functional." It is here with these large additions to the genome that nde will be falsified because it here they are hanging their hat. Now this is a little technical and most of us do not fully understand it but if we are to be taken seriously we have to learn to speak this language and show the shortcomings of it. Or else we will be looked at as annoying children who do not understand the talk of grown ups. I believe all these new tools that nde has suffer from the same vulnerability as the old theory does but we have to follow them where they go and not spend time on long abandoned positions.jerry
February 24, 2009
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Mark Frank (#40): I agree that any proof that acquired characteristics could be passed on would seriously damage Darwinism. Time will tell whether some recent suggestions along this line ultimately lead to a partial revival of Lamarckianism and undermine some or all of Darwinism. I also grant you that if there were not enough time, or if inheritance were not particulate, that would do the trick. However, these are merely minimum conditions. The fact that Darwinism long ago passed these tests is what enabled Darwinism to graduate from the stage of an utter impossibility to that of a permissible speculation. But that is like saying that Joe is destined to be a great Olympic runner because he has a working pair of legs. True, to be a great Olympic runner you need a working pair of legs; but you need a lot more than that. So it doesn’t follow, just because inheritance is particulate and the earth is billions of years old, that genetic accidents can accumulate to create viable new structures, with functional intermediates all along the way. The existence of the detailed mechanisms has to be verified. I contend that Darwinian evolutionary biology has generally proceeded in this way: first, assume as a general truth of nature that random mutations and natural selection (with a bit of sexual selection thrown in if you like) can craft radically new organs, systems, and body plans; second, speculate about possible evolutionary pathways in particular cases. I am asking what it would take to falsify the first step, the assumption about the capacities of RM + NS. What evidence would be sufficient to show that RM + NS have no such capacities? In other sciences, notably physics and chemistry, hypotheses are frequently framed so as to generate experiments which could potentially falsify them. For example, we can frame the hypothesis of an “ether” so that it is vulnerable to falsification by the Michelson-Morley experiment, or the hypothesis of a solid, impenetrable atom so that it is vulnerable to falsification by the “Rutherford” gold foil experiment. What analogous empirical vulnerability does Darwinism offer in its assertion of the creative powers of RM + NS? Let’s restate Darwinism as a hypothesis of the normal scientific type. Then Darwinism becomes a series of statements like this: “I hypothesize that random mutations + natural selection can turn a wolf into a whale in X million years”; “I hypothesize that random mutations plus natural selection can turn a fish into an amphibian in X million years”; “I hypothesize that random mutations plus natural selection can give a bacterium a flagellum within X thousand generations”. Now, in form these proposals look scientific, like the statement: “I hypothesize that disease X is caused by a tiny microorganism Y which is found in milk.” We can set up an experiment that could falsify the microorganism hypothesis, e.g., we could boil the milk until all the microrganisms Y are destroyed, and if the disease still occurs, then something else must be the cause. What would be the equivalent procedure in the Darwinian case? What experimental or observational data could cause a Darwinian to say: “I used to believe that RM + NS could turn a land mammal into a whale in 10 million years, but now I no longer believe that this is possible”?Thomas Cudworth
February 24, 2009
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#72 Thanks you for agreeing that I have met the challenge. I hope that those who have read this sequence of comments all now agree that Thomas challenge has been met. I am afraid I cannot answer your second paragraph as I don't have the expertise. Maybe one of the ID experts here can give me the equivalent estimate for a designer implementing life?Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
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Khan, You said, "First, considering that one of your main arguments on this board is that there is no evidence for macroevolution" I still stand by it. There may have been a few macro evolution events through naturalistic means but that is not evidence for macro evolution as a ongoing naturalistic process or a normal process in nature or an explanation for the progress of microbes to man. And I said that endosymbiosis of two prokaryotes may be one of these macro evolutionary events but if it did happen, it may not even be the explanation of eukaryotes. I quickly read the last four articles that Hunter mentions and I do not see any clear consensus of how the eukaryote came into being. The origin of the nucleus is still a mystery as well as other organelles. You have to understand that consensus of evolutionary biologists does not constitute proof and I assume that Margulis's book has a lot of data that is consistent with her interpretation. But like a lot of evolutionary biology's so called transitions the space between the prokaryote and the eukaryote lacks a lot of intermediaries. Now I understand the time problem and that they might have existed but they don't now so that cannot help you. It would have made the argument stronger. Also the endosymbiosis still suffers from the fundamental problem, namely the construction of new information for complex and novel capabilities. As I said HGT also provides new information for the cell that receives it but it is not fundamentally new information. A lot of interesting things happen in nature and symbiosis and HGT are just two of them. You seem to want to crow over this but I find the example if it is the killer example you tout, no more than one of a few isolated incidents and one that is not entirely clear. I am willing to grant it happened but if it did, it is no big deal. I use hyperbole on purpose a lot to egg on people with the absoluteness of it to provoke them and see what they do. I often say I can make the Darwinist argument better than most of the anti ID people who come here. That is because I read many of the pro Darwin books out there and have watched many, many videos on this. But I have a hard time supporting macro evolution except by circumstantial evidence and the problem will always be the information one. I just read the initial article in Allen MacNeill's recomendation about macro evolution and it speculates that the main source for macro evolution are either gene duplication or retroposons both of which are left to mutate over millions of years till they remarkably become something new and functional. The article is very interesting but my opinion of the author is that he is a real low life despite his research credentials.jerry
February 23, 2009
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Mark Frank I'll keep this short and sharp. Yes, widespread Lamarckianism would falsify the neo-Darwinian synthesis. Point taken. But falsifiability is not enough to make your theory truly scientific. You also need numbers. Here's my challenge. To the nearest order of magnitude, how long does the neo-Darwinian theory predict taht it should take to get from the simplest organic compounds to the first living cell? A. 10 years. B. 100. C. 1,000. D. 10,000. E. 100,000. F. 1,000,000. G. 10,000,000. H. 100,000,000. I. 1,000,000,000. J. More than 1,000,000,000. Please provide supporting calculations - and no cheating, please, by looking up the age of the Earth and subtracting the date of life's first emergence on Earth! If you can't even get the number of zeroes right, then don't expect me to take neo-Darwinian theory seriously. Game on?vjtorley
February 23, 2009
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B. L. Harville
If I went into a laboratory and used laboratory equipment to alter the genome of species A so as to create a new species B, I would not say that species B was commonly descended from A.
If you altered the genome of an existing species A in order to create species B, then it would indeed be stretching it a bit to claim that B was descended from A. But that's not what most ID-ers believe anyway. How about this scenario? You design species A, but at the same time, you insert some code in its genes so that a million years from now, it will be programmed to mutate into species B, in response to some future environmental disaster which you have anticipated (e.g. a burst of lethal radiation from a nearby supernova). B is designed to be ideally adapted to the harsh new environmental conditions. Surely we would still say that B was descended from A, even though the emergence of B was engineered.vjtorley
February 23, 2009
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B L Harville:
The accepted definition of common descent does not include genetic engineering.
Absolutely, it does! At least in the ID sense of the word, it does. If I take a rabbit, add a gene that makes it glow in the dark, the rabbit still had a mother and a father.
A number of people on this site say they believe in common descent but also believe that species can’t evolve from other species without intelligent intervention. This is a contradiction.
Firstly, many IDers, myself included, are of the mind that species (classicly defined) do come about without need of intelligent guidance. Secondly, this statement is only a contradiction if your interpretation of "common descent" is correct. As far as the ID community is conserned, if any creature had a mother and a father, or is the product of asexual cloning, then it conforms to common descent, even if it contains some other-world genetic engineering. It makes no sense to begin a debate with IDers by trying to force your definition onto terms. Wikipedia defines common descent as follows,
A group of organisms is said to have common descent if they have a common ancestor.
bFast
February 23, 2009
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A number of people on this site say they believe in common descent but also believe that species can't evolve from other species without intelligent intervention. This is a contradiction. If I went into a laboratory and used laboratory equipment to alter the genome of species A so as to create a new species B, I would not say that species B was commonly descended from A. I would say that species B was genetically engineered. The accepted definition of common descent does not include genetic engineering. Therefore, if you believe that species on this planet were genetically engineered by intelligent designers it is disingenuous for you to say that you believe in common descent.B L Harville
February 23, 2009
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How about: information: a limited set of symbols that represent physical states. information processing: the conversion of symbols into physical states, or of physical states into symbols.QuadFather
February 23, 2009
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#64 KF For obvious reasons I am reading this comment which is very clear and to the point. Short sentences, simple, concrete words. I am sorry to be so direct but I am not the only one to point out that your comments are unusually long. They are also typically full of long abstract words which can be intepreted in many different ways. Someone who is broadly in agreement with you will put their own interpretation on those words and proceed happily. If, like me, I generally don't agree, then I need to clarify exactly what they mean and that's hard work. For example,what is a "performance difference"? The practice of numbering your points is very useful but not sufficient to make up for the .Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
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#62 If you are using that definition then quite obviously there are loads of examples of information being created by non-intelligence. Atmospheric pressure and temperature records are both facts from which conclusions may be drawn and statistical data and they are not created by intelligence.Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
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Let me present my list of some of the things that should falsify neo-Darwinism: ... 4: True altruism. If an organism has specific DNA which plays a beneficial role for others, and there is no pathway of the favor being returned, this, in my view, would be absolutely unworkable within the neo-Darwinian context.
Well here's an example of true altruism*: Holocaust rescuers who aided the escape of Jews, despite the lack of any personal gain AND the great cost they incurred. Regarding the rescuers; - They were often completely unrelated to those they aided - They recieved no reward (everything was done in secret) - They often experienced deprivation of food, space and social commerce - They put themselves under extreme emotional distress - They put their own lives at risk - They put the lives of their friends and family at risk Neo-Darwinism flatly fails in any kind of explanation here. In fact I don't think you could get much further from the selectionist paradigm if you tried. Thus if the above criteria is used, this should falsify neo-Darwinism. *Credit to Jeffrey Schloss who's done some great work on this topic.Green
February 23, 2009
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Patrick: Thanks. 1 --> In fact, over the years, I have learned that a methodical step by step answer is often required if we are to address the sort of rhetorical objections we face. 2 --> In particular, since much of it is premised on the theory of buckshot: scatter a lot of shot int eh general direction, so if one or a few get through, that is enough. 3 --> There is also a place for short and sharp summaries and witty remarks, but without something step by step and methodical, the evo mat advocates will always resort to rhetorical "dance like a butterfly sting like a bee" debate games. [And those who know me will know that I almost never use "rhetoric" or "debate"in a positive sense. This is no exception.] 4 --> Mark has long since said he will not read anything I have to say, and claims that he does not understand. 5 --> I suggest -- with all due respect, Mr Frank -- the first problem is the father to the second. 6 --> And, so, I really answer his claims for the sake of onlookers, as we do need to deflect all the buckshot. (In future I need to preface anything about his comments with "re MF" or the like.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 23, 2009
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He's talking about converting between formats that information is stored in and how that relates to performance. But, yeah, I'd say that KF went off on a tangent in writing that paragraph. I have several friends who often go off into tangents when in technical discussions so I'm used to it. In any case, have fun with this conversation. I have to run.Patrick
February 23, 2009
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Mark, If you won't read what KF wrote then why should I write anything? It would be the same thing since he said it better than I can. I am going off of the definition you said you accepted. You said:
data: a collection of facts from which conclusions may be drawn; “statistical data” Yes. But clearly such information can easily be produced by non-intelligent processes e.g. atmospheric pressure and temperature.
From that statement I assumed you were connecting DNA to temperature. I think KF answers rather well.ellijacket
February 23, 2009
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