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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
Dr Liddle, allow me to offer you some charity. GoodbyeUpright BiPed
September 19, 2013
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Sept: I never envisaged that I could get from no-self-replicators to simple-self-replicators to the self-replicators with an inert-intermediary information transfer system without Darwinian evolution in between.
July: I have never, ever, suggested that you could produce a system of self-replicators from a system of non-self-replicators by Darwinian evolution. If you thought I suggested such a thing, either I mistyped, or you misread… Clearly it would be an absurd claim, because you have to have self-replicators before you can have Darwinian evolution. By definition.
You're folding back upon yourself. When the horse is dead, get off.Upright BiPed
September 19, 2013
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UB: On my screen your denial that you understand it is about six inches from your explanation of it. Liddle: In that case your paragraph is extraordinarily badly written.
I'm sure you're right Dr Liddle, however, my paragraph has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that you demonstrated your understanding of the system by explaining its operation in several posts over the course of the past two years, then suddenly today you claimed you didn't understand the system. And as far as my paragraph is concerned, I asked to you to point out what you don't understand. I am still waiting.Upright BiPed
September 19, 2013
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self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success does not involve the kind of “arbitrary” mapping you seem to consider essential.
You are confused Dr Liddle. “Self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success” isn't known to exist anywhere but in living systems, and those systems use a physicochemically-arbitrary protocol instantiated in their operation. It’s a physical necessity in order to input informational constraint over a deterministic system capable of producing the effect prescribed by the information. Self–replicating cells are not made of nucleotides, so at some point the informational medium must map to something other than the informational medium. And that will require a semiotic state. What you’ve done is confuse reality with a projection from your imagination; you simply assume your speculation is true. Moreover, you want to rebut observations you cannot refute, by means of an appeal to that assumption. Do you think that an advocate of materialism should be made to demonstrate that a material process can exists prior to argiung that it does? Given your robust respect for the rules of science, what exactly is the standard for that? In any case, your rebuttal in #446 only demonstrates once again that you understand the issues. Your retort that you don’t understand the observations (posted immediately under your previous explanations of those observations) is horribly strained, and it remains dishonest by any reasonable definition of the word.Upright BiPed
September 19, 2013
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UB:
On my screen your denial that you understand it is about six inches from your explanation of it.
In that case your paragraph is extraordinarily badly written. And in any case, my post at 446 still applies. At the time we had the conversation you cite, I had not appreciated that you really didn't think that Darwinian evolution could occur in the absence of a DNA-RNA-protein system. I thought you were essentially claiming that the DNA-RNA-protein system was unevolvable, not that no Darwinian-capable system was possible without it. I never envisaged that I could get from no-self-replicators to simple-self-replicators to the self-replicators with an inert-intermediary information transfer system without Darwinian evolution in between. I'm almost certain that it's impossible.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Yes, thanks for the correction, RB. That's what I meant to type. I also meant to delete the last sentence, which was left over from an earlier draft!Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Lizzie:
what is clear in principle is that self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success does not involve the kind of “arbitrary” mapping you seem to consider essential. And the one essential for Darwinian processes to kick in is self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success.
I would say, "necessarily involve." Otherwise, precisely my objection:
Your problem now is that you think that Liz’s statement helps your position given that change, when it does not. “Darwinian evolution,” and “replication with heritable variation in reproductive success” (same thing) are not synonymous with “a semiotic state”/your entailments, as you claim. Simpler replicators, devoid of some or all of your entailments, may be possible, yet capable of Darwinian evolution. Therefore while Darwinian evolution can’t account for the emergence of the first Darwinian process (duh), it may account for the first instances of systems you choose to characterize as “semiotic,” and the entailments thereof.
https://uncommondescent.com/culture/if-we-cant-find-common-ground-at-least-lets-find-charitable-ground/#comment-471868Reciprocating Bill
September 19, 2013
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UB at 442. You ask what is incoherent about this your last paragraph. I think it is completely incoherent. I honestly have no idea what it means. For Darwinian evolution to occur, what is needed is a population of self-replicators that replicate with heritable variance in reproductive success. Clearly that will involve information transfer from parent to offspring, or, more likely in a pre-biotic environment, duplication of information. There is a good series of animations of possible scenarios, some parts of which have been tested, from the Szostak lab, here: Whether or not these scenarios are what happened, or close to what happened, what is clear in principle is that self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success does not involve the kind of "arbitrary" mapping you seem to consider essential. And the one essential for Darwinian processes to kick in is self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success. This means that Darwinian processes can precede, and therefore be a causal factor in, the evolution of more complex information transfer systems such as DNA. Clearly "arrangements of matter" can "produce specific functional effects" in many ways, sometimes with an inert intermediary, sometimes not.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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On my screen your denial that you understand it is about six inches from your explanation of it.Upright BiPed
September 19, 2013
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No, it isn't dishonest, Upright BiPed. I certainly don't understand it, and having spend many hours trying to, I concluded that it is incoherent. I may be wrong, but it is my honest view.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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As I told you upthread Dr Liddle:
The next time someone gives you an argument for design, where you must agree with observations and cannot dispute the rationale; then don’t deny it (even if it doesn’t convince you). Instead, try saying “I cannot deny your argument, but I am not convinced by it”.
But to say you it's "incoherent" and that you "don't understand it" is patently dishonest.Upright BiPed
September 19, 2013
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Dr Liddle, You’re looking in the wrong direction, Dr Liddle. The reception of your gallery was entirely predictable. The issue at hand is you walking around in a fairy tale, pretending that the participants on your blog have anything whatsoever to do with good faith. You advertise the very thing you don’t possess, and you seem surprised that anyone might understand the correlation. As for the remainder of your post, I really just have to wonder what were you thinking? Again, do you not realize that these conversations are recorded? Liddle: “My original claim wasn’t even addressed to you."
June 2011 (The day we began our conversation) ..... Liddle: I simply do not accept the tenet that replication with modification + natural selection cannot introduce “new information” into the genome. It demonstrably can, IMO, on any definition of information I am aware of. UB: Neo-Darwinism doesn’t have a mechanism to bring information into existence in the first place. Liddle: Well, tell me what definition of information you are using, and I’ll see if I can demonstrate that it can
- - - - - - - - - - - Liddle: ”I still find your argument largely incomprehensible.” Liddle: ”What if I don’t even understand the rationale, or the alleged “observations?” Liddle: ”I am still waiting for you to make a case that I understand.”
July 2011 (58 days after we began the conversation) ..... Dr Liddle: However, Upright BiPed suggested something much more along the lines of Meyer’s quoted definition from Merriam-Webster, in which “information” is not a property of a pattern, as with CSI, but the property of a process. This makes a lot more sense to me, as I’ve said, and would mean that the ID claim, which I set out to refute, is: Chance and Necessity cannot create information, where information is arrangements of things that have specific effects. So we have protocol in there now – information is not just a pattern but a pattern that has effects. And not just any effects – effects specific to a pattern. In other words there is a mapping between pattern and effect. However, Upright BiPed also made an additional caveat, which is that to be true information, the mapping has to be achieved via an inert arbitrary intermediary pattern of some kind (as is done by tRNA in a cell). And in addition, I made the caveat that the specific effects should probably be functional in some way – e.g. promote faithful self-replication. And so the ID claim becomes: Chance and Necessity cannot generate information, where information consists of arrangements of something that produce specific functional effects by means of inert intermediary patterns.
April 2012 (330 days after we began the converasation) ..... Liddle: Upright BiPed wants to describe this as a “semiotic” system, because many sets of tRNA molecules would do the job, as long as there was only tRNA molecule for each possible triplet, and that each tRNA molecule could only attach to one amino acid. It doesn’t matter, of course, if more than one tRNA molecule binds to the same amino acid, and that is in fact what we have. So the system of tRNA molecules is a bit like a symbol system – each tRNA molecule “represents” an amino acid. Not only that, but the mRNA molecule also “represents” an amino acid, but that representation, like a human symbol system, is arbitrary – any triplet could “represent” any amino acid; the fact that any one triplet “represents” any one amino acid is simply an epiphenomenon of the particular set of tRNA molecules that the DNA molecule templates for. An equally good system could work with a completely different set of tRNA molecules as long as the rule that there has to be only on tRNA molecule for each triplet, and each tRNA molecule has to be specific to one amino acid. So let’s grant that such a system can be described as “semiotic” on the grounds that the mapping is arbitrary, not a matter of necessary chemistry. In principle we could alter the DNA of a cell so that a different set of tRNA molecules was produced, and recode the protein coding portions of the genes into the new mapping, and get a perfectly well functioning cell. So in that sense the “language” of the cell is the “language” of a community of “shared symbol-users”, so that as long as the DNA in a community of cells conforms to the community symbol system, i.e. each cell’s DNA generates the same set of tRNA molecules, each cell’s DNA will be “read correctly” correctly by the cell’s tRNA molecules and the correct protein produced at the correct time. And, it seems, all living things have (roughly) the same “symbol” system. In practice this means that all living cells have a stretches of DNA that form templates for the same set of tRNA molecules. So far so good. But UBP then draws two conclusions that are IMO quite unsupported. He says that:
"The modest conclusion of the semiotic argument is simply that the transfer of genetic information during protein synthesis materially demonstrates a semiotic state"
which I will provisionally accept on the assumption that the “semiotic state” of “the transfer of genetic information” simply means that translation from mRNA sequence to amino acid sequence is achieved by means of a specific but arbitrary set of tRNA molecules templated by the DNA
“and therefore requires a mechanism capable of creating it.”
Sure. There needs to be a mechanism by which that set, or an equivalent set, of tRNA molecules came to be templated by the DNA, and not some useless set in which one triplet could result in any one of a number of amino acids. So? Why shouldn’t evolutionary mechanisms result in such a set?
- - - - - - - - - - - Liddle: ”I do not “agree with the observations of semiosis”.
March 2012 (405 days after we began the conversation) ..... UB: And what about you Elizabeth? Are you prepared to affirm that semiosis exist in protein synthesis? Or are you affirming the material observations, as you seem to suggest, but still playing the silly game of arguendo. Liddle: I am prepared to accept that the word “semiosis” as you are defining it covers protein synthesis. Liddle: I am affirming the material observations, but I do not play silly games. Liddle: I agree that the word semiosis as you are defining it, covers protein synthesis. What I want to know is why this is an argument for Intelligent Design.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Liddle: ” From my PoV you have not made a coherent case, Upright Biped.” Then point out what you find incoherent:
In a material universe, it is not possible to transfer any form of recorded information into a material effect without using an arrangement of matter (or energy) as an information-bearing medium. If that is true, then other material necessities must follow. Firstly, such a medium must evoke an effect within a system capable of producing that effect. Universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. Secondly, if a medium contains information as a consequence of its arrangement, then that arrangement must be physically arbitrary to the effect it evokes. Again, universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. And thirdly, if an arrangement of matter requires a system to produce an effect, and if that arrangement is arbitrary to the effect it evokes, then the system itself must contain a second arrangement of matter to establish the otherwise non-existent relationship between the arrangement of the medium and its effect. Once again, universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. If each of these things are true, then in order to transfer and translate any form of recorded information, the process fundamentally requires two arrangements of matter operating as an irreducible core within the system. And because Darwinian evolution requires the transfer and translation of recorded information in order to exist itself, it cannot be the source of this system. Given these observations, a mechanism capable of establishing this semiotic state is necessary prior to the onset of Darwinian evolution and information-based organization.
Upright BiPed
September 19, 2013
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"Fever swamp conspiracyism" -- oh, like you mean what Murray was talking about in the OP, and on which many others quickly chimed in with loud agreement? The "Darwinism is the end of civilization!" -- now that is "fever-swamp conspiracyism"! I post occasionally at AtBC and somewhat frequently at TSZ, as well as here. That's why I use a pseudonym. I wouldn't contribute to any of these forums if I had to do so under my real name. It would be too embarrassing if any of these sites came up during a web-search on me.Kantian Naturalist
September 19, 2013
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Well, I don't think it is slander to express a derogatory opinion of someone on a blog. No lawyer I know thinks so. And KF's idea that TSZ is a "front organisation" for anything is absurd. I do occasionally post at AtBC, but I am not ashamed of that. I have occasionally been shocked at stuff I've encountered there, and have let my protest be known (not being backward about being forward). But there's a quite a big overlapping community of people interested in evolution questions, posting at various sites including IIDB as was, Pharyngula, RDF, JREF, TalkRational, TWEB, Panda's Thumb and various other blogs. The idea that because that community also overlaps with the posters at TSZ means that my blog must be a "front organisation" for one of them, is absurd. In any case, trying organise that crowd is like herding the proverbial cats, as I know only too well. On the other hand, rattle the tin and they come running.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Exhibit no 1 for this is the blog you are maintaining as a front operation for the fever swamp conspiracyism at AtBC.
Considering that most readers of this forum would consider any association with AtBC an extremely damning and damaging link, your statement could be considered slanderous. If you have any evidence that could support your declaration then you'd best present it or your own reputation will be brought into question. Unless no one here really cares if it's true. If the point is to cut down your opponent no matter what the cost.Jerad
September 19, 2013
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Indeed, KF, I am regularly incensed by accusations here and elsewhere that scientists commit fraud in order to push a materialist agenda. Read William's OP of this very thread:
And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians. They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).
Your own posts are frequently laced with such accusations, and dire warnings about what you are "up against here". But I do not demand that you retract them, I attempt to rebut them. And my blog is not a "front organisation" for anything. It is a blog on which I offer posting permissions to anyone who asks, including you.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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OOPS: Forgot to link the response to the slanderous conspiracy theories on the so-called wedge document, here.kairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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EL:
389: "I set up TSZ to try to provide a space where we could temporarily shelve mutual suspicion of motives so as to help drill down to the actual differences of opinion." 391: "there is nothing on my site that is any worse that what is regularly tolerated on this one."
A classic of big lie bland assertions followed up by turnabout immoral equivalency false accusation. TSZ in fact is currently hosting a slander- and hate-fest complete with false accusations of fraud against design theory as a whole [--> remember this implies an accusation of fraud against me as an individual too, which I not only know to be false but to be defamatory not a mere error], and the loonie tunes conspiracy theory that it is a front for an imagined grand theocratic, Christo-Fascist neo-nazi conspiracy to reduce our civilisation under some new religious tyranny. All, without any significant effort on your part to return to a focus on the substantial matters you allege are primary to your blog. Second, in a very few days now, it will be a full year since a good faith challenge to address the range of core issues on the merits was put. It was ducked, apart from attack- attack- attack tactics. Above in this thread you yourself indulged a strawman caricature of the challenge in order to excuse ducking it, and so far as I can see you have never taken back the misrepresentation or apologised for such. That strongly suggests that it was calculated and continues. On the other, blame the victim, side what you are doing is enabling defamation in order to justify scapegoating and targetting, involving false accusations without any serious foundation (notice onlookers how the repeatedly linked response that shows just how utterly unwarranted the conspiracist accusations are was ducked, cf here again). Also, this is in a context of censorship and career busting -- in a further context where similar false accusations have repeatedly been used in harming careers unjustly, in abusing education to indoctrinate in ideological materialism dressed up in a lab coat and even in courtrooms. There have been moments from time to time where people at UD have gone over the top, they have been corrected and in one long term recovery case, they have been administratively warned. Ther eis no evidence whatsoever of any intention to be responsible over what is happening live at TSZ, and that is a direct implication of the assertions of the blog owner, yourself, having been confronted with what is going on. We are entitled to infer that TSZ is in fact a front operation for AtBC, given the considerable overlap in personalities and substance, through it seems TSZ is working as a somewhat less scurrilous front intended to project an aura of "dialogue." We are further entitled to infer and conclude that y70ou Dr Liddle are an enabler of the slander strategy, and that you have no intention to amend your ways. You are playing good cop in a corrupt good cop bad cop game. Let me just say to you that you would be incensed if someone were to accuse you and your field of conspiracy to commit fraud. (I think, on good reason, that the whole arena of evolutionary materialism tainted, ideologised science is in gross error and self referential incoherence to the point of absurdity evident to all not caught up int eh system, but that has happened time and again in the history of ideas.) You would be outraged if someone were to seize on something close to your identiy, e.g. that you are a woman, and attach all sorts of insults and accusations of totalitarian intent to that. You would be very concerned if someone -- especially someone you had reason to believe was a slave to drink and probably worse, was evidently suffering PTSD and seemed to be a gun nut -- were to in that context try to out your family including your children and in so doing subject them to implied threats. Do you begin to understand what you are enmeshed with as an enabler, madam? Or, do you intend to continue to pretend that all is sweetness and light there are only and all angels on our side and the other side are only and all devils. That is what you are so plainly doing and in that pursuit you have been busy trying to get this thread to focus on anything but the fever swamp realities you do not wish to face. All I will say to you is that to lie is to speak with disregard to the truth you know or should know and to hope to profit by what is being said, suggested or implied being perceived as true. You either know better or you full well SHOULD know better than you speak and act. Just as, ever so many "good Germans" in the 1930's and 40's knew or should have known better than they spoke and acted. But, for one reason or another, they ended up enabling monstrous evil. Here is the rebuke of the White Rose Movement's martyrs to such enabling:
WR, II: Since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way . . . The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals . . . Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty! WR, IV: Every word that comes from Hitler's mouth is a lie. When he says peace, he means war, and when he blasphemously uses the name of the Almighty, he means the power of evil, the fallen angel, Satan. His mouth is the foul-smelling maw of Hell, and his might is at bottom accursed. True, we must conduct a struggle against the National Socialist terrorist state with rational means; but whoever today still doubts the reality, the existence of demonic powers, has failed by a wide margin to understand the metaphysical background of this war.
Resemblance to Saul Alinsky's rules for radicals is NOT coincidental. Let me refresh our memories from RFR, as there is a tendency in threads like this to bury and forget pivotal but unwelcome matters under a pile of irrelevancies. Let us understand what is happening in our education systems, institutions, communities and civilisation as a whole at the hands of ruthless nihilists and their enablers:
"The end is what you want, the means is how you get it. Whenever we think about social change, the question of means and ends arises. The man of action views the issue of means and ends in pragmatic and strategic terms. He has no other problem; he thinks only of his actual resources and the possibilities of various choices of action. He asks of ends only whether they are achievable and worth the cost; of means, only whether they will work. ... The real arena is corrupt and bloody." p.24 "The first step in community organization is community disorganization. The disruption of the present organization is the first step toward community organization. Present arrangements must be disorganized if they are to be displace by new patterns.... All change means disorganization of the old and organization of the new." p.116 1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have." . . . . 3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.) 4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity." 5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." . . . . 13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'... "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...' "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other." pp. 127 - 134.
And here is the OSS' evaluation of that demonic madman Hitler's techniques:
[Hitler's] primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it. [Hitler as His Associates Know Him (OSS report, p.51), courtesy Wiki.]
As of this point, Dr Liddle, consider yourself exposed as a good cop enabler whose word is not to be trusted and whose behaviour is not to be trusted either. You therefore as of now have zero credibility and will be treated as a good cop enabler in cahoots with fever swamp conspiracy theorists and destructive nihilistic zealots. Exhibit no 1 for this is the blog you are maintaining as a front operation for the fever swamp conspiracyism at AtBC. Take a long, hard look in the mirror and be ashamed, Dr Liddle, deeply ashamed. If you have enough conscience left. Then, for the sake of all that is holy and decent, turn and make amends for what you have been doing. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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Box:
There is emergentism which denies mental causation (in line with the principle of causal closure) and emergentism which allows for mental causal effect. You clearly adhere to the latter version. Does ‘biological naturalism’ – John Searle – ring your bell? Or is there another philosopher you can name?
I'm a neuroscientist, not a philosopher, Box, I'm afraid. But philosophers that come closest to my position would be Hofstadter and Dennett. I think that what causes my actions is me - the whole human organism known as Lizzie. One of the properties of Lizzie (and other human beings) is that she can think, and take many things into account when weighing up a decision, including the likely consequences of her actions for herself and others. We call that property a "mind" but it is not a thing separate from the organism - it's a property of the organism.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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William: in the case of your claims, just about any criterion you care to mention.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Mung
But if you are merely an organism, a system, who is conscious (whatever that means) and who has “decision-power” (whatever that means), what is it, precisely, that distinguishes you from the thing I squashed in my shower or the organisms you killed the last time you cleaned your bathroom?
I did not say that I was "merely" an organism. I said I was an organism. Which is true. So are you. So are all living things. I am not a brain, or a foot, or a neuron, I am an organism. I am also the type of organism we call a "human being". I am the specific human beings people call "Lizzie". And many things distinguish human beings from bacteria, for instance, as I'm sure you are aware, but notable ones in this context are those you mention - the capacity to be conscious of things, including other human beings and oneself, to make informed purposeful decisions.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Mung, I did not say the statements were analogous, or not analogous. I said they were scientifically invalid.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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It doesn’t bother you that most of these are downright false, and the remainder, at best, grossly misleading?
False & misleading according to what means of arbiting true statements from false?William J Murray
September 18, 2013
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Liz There is emergentism which denies mental causation (in line with the principle of causal closure) and emergentism which allows for mental causal effect. You clearly adhere to the latter version. Does ‘biological naturalism’ – John Searle - ring your bell? Or is there another philosopher you can name?Box
September 18, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Not sure of your point, Mung. I do not think all organisms are capable of consciousness or free will. I doubt the one you squashed in your shower was. As I said, a quite complicated brain is probably rather an important prerequisite.
Yes, I understand that many of my points and arguments are obscure to the uninitiated. :) Just send 29.95 to the following address for your free gift of this reproduction of an artists rendering of the hem of Jesus' garment straight from the Holy Land. My point, for whatever it's worth, was to point out your choice of wording.
In other words “I” – Lizzie, me, the organism” – is the system, and it is I who am conscious and it is I who has decision-power, at least while I am conscious.
Most of here at least make the attempt to treat you like a PERSON. But if you are merely an organism, a system, who is conscious (whatever that means) and who has "decision-power" (whatever that means), what is it, precisely, that distinguishes you from the thing I squashed in my shower or the organisms you killed the last time you cleaned your bathroom?Mung
September 18, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Mung, the second claim is essentially that made by Dembski. The first is one often alleged to be made by “Darwinists. They are not “equivalent” indeed, but both are scientifically invalid.
Third claim third. Both are "scientifically invalid," but they are not equivalent. So what, in your mind, discriminates between these two "scientifically invalid" claims? You presented them as analogous, even if you don't realize it. And now you claim that they are not analogous. Why not?Mung
September 18, 2013
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Not sure of your point, Mung. I do not think all organisms are capable of consciousness or free will. I doubt the one you squashed in your shower was. As I said, a quite complicated brain is probably rather an important prerequisite.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
In other words “I” – Lizzie, me, the organism” – is the system, and it is I who am conscious and it is I who has decision-power, at least while I am conscious.
Well Lizzie, maybe you should thank God that you were not the organism I found in my shower and squashed. And I can shudder at the thought of the number of organisms you annihilated the last time your cleaned house.Mung
September 18, 2013
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Box
You are not answering my question at all. We are talking past each other. This has been going on for several posts now. I have done my best to ask clear questions. I did rephrase some of them several times. I’m done. Thank you for trying to communicate.
And I have done my best to give clear answers. It is sometimes difficult when people have very different mental pictures to match an answer to a question, so I am sorry I did not address yours. You asked: "does consciousness, as a property, have decision-power? Or lies decision-power with the system?" Consciousness, I am saying, is a property of the system (the organism). In other words, the organism can be described as "conscious" - of itself, of the world. The "property" doesn't have "decision-power" - but the organism (the system) has "decision-power" in part by virtue of its property of being conscious. In other words "I" - Lizzie, me, the organism" - is the system, and it is I who am conscious and it is I who has decision-power, at least while I am conscious. If I do something in my sleep, while I am not conscious, I would not call that a "free will" decision, and would not expect to be held morally (or legally) responsible for any actions I took while asleep. But I would certainly take moral and legal responsibility for decisions and actions taken while conscious. Anyway, thanks for the conversation. I'm sorry communication has not been more successful.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Mung:
You assert that Dembki’s arguments for ID can be reduced to, in essence, the claim that: “We can infer Design from the insufficiency of evolutionary theory to explain life”. This demonstrates a profound misreading of Dembski. It calls into question any claim you’ve ever made to have understood Dembski or to have dealt with his argument.
I disagree. In fact, I suggest that a large number of posters here do not understand Dembski's argument, and have therefore failed to note the problems it has. But yes, that is what his equation boils down to - it's what the Explanatory Filter boils down to. If Chance and Necessity are not sufficient to explain life, then we can infer Design. Later he dropped "Necessity" and subsumed under his "Chance hypothesis" "Darwinian and other material mechanisms". And his claim is that if a pattern has a small enough probability of occurring under the Chance hypothesis, then Design can be inferred. In other words, if Chance [including evolutionary mechanisms] is insufficient to account for a pattern, say, life, given the opportunities claimed to have been available in the universe to date (that's the 500 bit part), then we can infer Design.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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