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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
F/N: Re El at 478:
we have a culture war masquerading as a scientific project [--> a priori materialism wearing a lab coat!], and a scientific project mistaken for a culture war. [--> The design inference]
Of course, I am pretty sure EL meant it in a very different way, I have highlighted the turnabout accusation blame the victim mentality that is driving what she is doing. Now, on some substantiation, let me cite some longstanding clips that EL knows or should know but evidently refuses to acknowledge the force of:
LEWONTIN, 1997: To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And if you swallow the usual talking point on quite mining cf the just linked] NSTA DiRECTORS, 2000: The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations NAS, 2008: In science, explanations must be based on naturally occurring phenomena [euphemism for natural-ISTIC]. Natural causes are, in principle, reproducible and therefore can be checked independently by others. If explanations are based on purported forces that are outside of nature [strawman, th4e issue is nature meaning undirected blind chance and necessity vs art, intelligently directed contingency ever since Plato, cf also your food label and much more], scientists have no way of either confirming or disproving those explanations. Any scientific explanation has to be testable — there must be possible observational consequences that could support the idea but also ones that could refute it. Unless a proposed explanation is framed in a way that some observational evidence could potentially count against it, that explanation cannot be subjected to scientific testing. [a real but usually unacknowledged problem for the materialist a priori imposed on science and also for mechanisms alleged to account for OOL and OO body plans]
In short the shoe is most definitely on the other foot. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Yes Lizzie, there shouldn't be any ideaology built into science, however scientists prove you wrong on a daily basis.
To me, the fundamental problem with the ID movement is that it is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of scientific claims,..
Evidence please- your say-so is meaningless.
“Scientific materialism” does not exist.
That's a joke, right?
If you want to argue about science, then argue about science.
We would love to but your position doesn't have any science.Joe
September 20, 2013
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There is no ideology built into science. Either you misunderstood Lewontin or he was wrong.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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EL, 478: More strawmen, and you manage to avoid addressing the most glaring issue, the conspiracy theory, while twisting things into pretzels to blame the victim as immorally equivalent for hitting back first. As to ideology built into science start from Lewontin's cat out of the bag then come back to us. As usual, misrepresentations. Enabling. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Brent@474: Why would you want to deliberately try to shame someone? That's kind of childish.5for
September 20, 2013
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Heh. Well, according to that glossary, "Darwinism" refers to the "neo-Darwinist synthesis" i.e. to a scientific theory. Ironically, in the DI document "The “Wedge Document”: So What?" linked above, the authors write:
First, we are challenging the truth of particular scientific theories (such as neo-Darwinism and the theory of chemical evolution) using appropriate scientific methods, canons of reasoning and evaluation and, most importantly, scientific evidence. To say that challenging a particular scientific theory constitutes an attack on science itself is to misunderstand science profoundly. Science advances precisely by such challenges. Reasoned argument about how best to interpret scientific evidence is, and always has been, essential to the practice of science—indeed, in a real sense it is science. Second, as noted, we are challenging the philosophy of scientific materialism, not science itself. Our detractors fail to make this critical, but obvious, distinction. We don’t know why. But we suspect that some scientists have so equated science with their own materialistic worldview that they regard any challenge to that worldview, or any challenge to the theories that give it plausibility, as tantamount to an attack on science itself.
And yet, when I attempt to make "this critical, but obvious, distinction", I am accused of "obfuscation", or, contradictorily, with making a "distinction without a difference". That document defines "scientific materialism" as: "the simplistic philosophy or world-view that claims that all of reality can be reduced to, or derived from, matter and energy alone." If people want to debate "scientific materialism", that's fine. If they want to debate neo-Darwinism, or any other evolutionary theory, that's fine. But those are very different debates, and if either is to be comprehensible, then it is absolutely vital that it is clear which debate we are having. It is also absolutely vital that people recognise that the truth or otherwise of evolutionary theory has no bearing on the truth, or otherwise of "scientific materialism". Falsification of some evolutionary hypothesis will do nothing to demonstrate that scientific materialism is false; nor will demonstrating support for some evolutionary hypothesis demonstrate that scientific materialism is true. The glaring problem with the Wedge and the So What? documents is that the very conflation of ideology with science that they accuse their opponents of is being made by the DI. As a result, we have a culture war masquerading as a scientific project, and a scientific project mistaken for a culture war. Nothing in evolutionary theory, or indeed any scientific theory, does, or can, support the view that "all of reality can be reduced to, or derived from, matter and energy alone".Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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I take it neither as an insult nor as a compliment, Brent. I simply reject your allegations completely. Box asked:
WJM presents the well-known problem of morality for Naturalism and Darwinism: many philosophers have argued that these hypothesis are unable to accommodate morality.
In this post Box is using "Darwinism" apparently to refer both to an ideology (i.e. something that can, or cannot, "accommodate morality") and to a "hypothesis". An ideology is not a hypothesis, and Darwin's scientific hypothesis no more "accommodates morality" than any other scientific hypothesis. The ideology referred to as "Darwinism" might or might not, but without knowing what ideology is referred to, then it is impossible to comment. That is why I tried, in my response, to distinguish between these two very different meanings for "Darwinism", and to elicit some specific definition for the latter. I still don't know what is meant, here, by "Darwinism" as an ideology. It seems to be used as a general boogy word for some perceived worldview to do with with atheism, evolutionary biology and sometimes the political left. But whether Common Descent, or Darwinian adaptive evolution are supported scientific hypothesis is completely unrelated to the issue of whether the ideology referred to as "Darwinism" is damaging or otherwise.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Ah, so UD DOES have a glossary! https://uncommondescent.com/glossary/ Could I ask that y'all take some time reading over what is there and see if it is correct? Well, not 'correct' . . . acceptable? Also, I think it would be good if there was a thread for discussing the glossary. Could one of the people with thread creating power do that please? It's a good resource to have so it's worth while having a look to make sure we can all use it as a 'standard'.Jerad
September 19, 2013
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Oh I agree. But it isn’t always the case that terms are unclear, and in the cases that can be easily taken from this thread, very many weren’t.
No harm in being sure you're all starting from the same place though. I used to get really fed up in math classes having to restate my definitions so often. But I discovered that it avoided lots of argumentation that might otherwise arise. Perhaps it would be good if UD hosted a glossary of terms that we could all use as a basis for discussions? Or is there already such a thing? One that's been updated and agreed upon by many ID supporters?Jerad
September 19, 2013
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Jerad @472, Oh I agree. But it isn't always the case that terms are unclear, and in the cases that can be easily taken from this thread, very many weren't. My "crude insult" is, probably ineffectively, an attempt to shake her and shame her. She is pretty shameless, but I've come to think she'd probably take that as a compliment.Brent
September 19, 2013
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But to answer your question, please read Dembski’s “Specification: the Pattern that Signifies Intelligence”. In it, he sets up a detailed argument in which he argues that we can infer “Design” if our data falls in the “rejection region” of a null distribution, where the null is “The relevant Chance hypothesis”, which he defines as “including Darwinian or other material processes”.
Quite true. I'd recommend that everyone on this forum read the paper and make sure they are very clear about what is being said and what is not being said. The mathematics used is not that advanced.Jerad
September 19, 2013
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Agreed! We do this quite often . . . WITH THINGS IN OUR OWN UNIVERSE! But that will be lost on her, just like the meaning of “Darwinism”, “society”, “morality”, “binding”, and 101 other things. My internal conflict is really only whether EL pretends not to understand, or if she actually is that intellectually challenged.
Leaving your rather crude insult aside I think you're not understanding the reasons why it's necessary to pin down precisely how someone is using certain terms. My background is in mathematics and, for example, when I'm talking to a graph theorist then when I speak of a tree or a path I'm using those terms in very narrow ways specific to that sub-discipline. If you're not clear about how you're using key terms then it's inevitable that your points will not be clear or understood. It's a double-edged sword of course. If you narrowly define your terms then you are restricted to those definitions.Jerad
September 19, 2013
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And Mung: your allegations of intellectual dishonesty are trumped up. But to answer your question, please read Dembski's "Specification: the Pattern that Signifies Intelligence". In it, he sets up a detailed argument in which he argues that we can infer "Design" if our data falls in the "rejection region" of a null distribution, where the null is "The relevant Chance hypothesis", which he defines as "including Darwinian or other material processes". In other words, exactly what I said.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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I find it deeply ironic that my repeated attempts to pin people down to definitions for the terms they bandy around is regarded as "obfuscation" or "equivocation". It is quite the reverse. To me, the fundamental problem with the ID movement is that it is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of scientific claims, and extrapolates from perceived scientific claims to a perceived ideology which it fears and opposes. This is quite explicit in the Wedge document which says:
The social consequences of materialism have been devastating. As symptoms, those consequences are certainly worth treating. However, we are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism
"Scientific materialism" does not exist. It is a bogeyman. Nothing in science can tell you that there is no God, or no spiritual realm, or that the material is the limit to what exists, and any claim appears to tell you that is either unscientific or misunderstood. If you want to fight a culture war, fight a culture war. If you want to argue about science, then argue about science. But the myth that the two are the same needs debunking, and to do that, it is important to make the distinction between science and ideology absolutely clear.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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So, EL says, repeatedly, that we don't need to directly be able to observe something in order to know it exists: we can infer the existence of some things based on their effects, and we do it all the time. Agreed! We do this quite often . . . WITH THINGS IN OUR OWN UNIVERSE! But that will be lost on her, just like the meaning of "Darwinism", "society", "morality", "binding", and 101 other things. My internal conflict is really only whether EL pretends not to understand, or if she actually is that intellectually challenged. EL's gig is up. She throws around words, attempting to make distinctions, but without a difference. She says that men don't make up the moral code, but that "society" does. Brilliant! She says she doesn't know what Darwinism means as WJM used it. If that isn't telling, nothing is. She has no excuse to not know based on the context of what WJM wrote. And if she disagrees with how he used the term, she should have attempted correction, and then dealt with WJM's arguments directly. But if she doesn't simply do so, but instead says, "I don't know what you mean", then it is only because she doesn't have a good answer. That's fine. It's not a weakness to not always have a good answer. What is a weakness is to bluff as if you do, or would. This is exactly the point where we are able to judge and be justified in saying that EL has flushed her credibility down the toilet, when she says indefensible things such as that she doesn't know what someone means by a word, even though a schoolboy can decipher it easily enough from the context in which it is used, not to mention that she knows very well the thinking of the person who used it! My "charitable" contribution to this thread and in regards as to what to do about EL: First: I don't hate her or wish her ill in the least, and no one should. However, there is no reason not to be blunt and severe with her. Second: Don't follow the rabbit. She is very, very good at shifting things away from where she feels she cannot make a good response. She will stall, she will post silly and obvious things that are not germane to the subject directly (i.e., a favorite of hers is to say, "I never said . . .", which is usually true, but only in the strict sense of not saying it verbatim, and she starts using words that murk things up. Note: it is more common to say, "I didn't mean . . ." and then clarify, but she rarely does that, because that would actually be a bald-headed lie in most cases.). But, don't let her off the hook, and make her stay on a point until she squirms. Third: If you do follow the rabbit, remember why you are doing it, and bring it back around to where you started. If you go far enough down that trail, the benefit is that she will contradict herself. It is always a pesky problem associated with not having the truth. Fourth: And more generally, keep in mind that these discussions do have in impact, not only on bystanders, but also on those who take part in them. It's one thing to put up a good front on a forum or blog, but God sets everyone alone in their own thoughts (thoughts either accusing or else excusing them) at various times, and it will be there that the facade will crumble. And WJM is right, it is often for emotional reasons that people act and change, and so the most off the wall event could easily be a catalyst for a conscience to become engaged, like releasing a clutch. And for that, we do need charity, and an abundance of wisdom. But charity, real charity, is not always gentle, and when combined with wisdom, can be downright ugly on the surface. As for EL, I'm trying to make it obvious that I will no longer dialogue with her directly, although I will critique her equivocations, obfuscations, and the like. I hope she improves and becomes useless on this blog sometime, because her methods thus far are actually destructive, causing many wasted hours replying to her because of her most hypocritical characteristic of saying "assume others are posting in good faith", while it is demonstrable that she doesn't in fact post in good faith, but with the knowledge that she doesn't mean the same thing as others by certain words, denies that she knows what certain words mean, and on and on and on. I hope she wakes up sometime.Brent
September 19, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
But yes, that is what his equation boils down to – it’s what the Explanatory Filter boils down to. If Chance and Necessity are not sufficient to explain life, then we can infer Design.
Elizabeth Liddle:
And his claim is that if a pattern has a small enough probability of occurring under the Chance hypothesis, then Design can be inferred. In other words, if Chance [including evolutionary mechanisms] is insufficient to account for a pattern, say, life, given the opportunities claimed to have been available in the universe to date (that’s the 500 bit part), then we can infer Design.
By your own admission you know there is more to Dembski's argument than "We can infer Design from the insufficiency of evolutionary theory to explain life." Intellectual dishonesty. Now could you please point out where Dembski set intelligent design against Darwinian evolution as competing hypotheses for the origin of life, because if true that would be real howler. I'd love to see it.Mung
September 19, 2013
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Jerad: more turnabout attempts in the teeth of repeated correction. I can stand by the record above. At no point have you or your ilk properly warranted grave accusations and it is evident that they are in fact groundless, rooted in things like pretzel twisting of the so-called Wedge document. Again I put this on the table to show the repeated unresponsiveness to correction of slander. Do you not see that that in and of itself more than warrants some pretty stringent conclusions about enabling good cop behaviour that supports slander by the AtBC etc bad cops. Think again and do better, or face the consequence of your behaviour, utter loss of credibility. KF
I find your accusations and conclusions groundless. You cannot understand how or why anyone would disagree with you unless they had some nefarious agenda. You think your way of thinking is the only just and correct way. You have a habit of repeating the same things over and over again 'in the teeth' of challenges. In comment 436 you stated:
We are entitled to infer that TSZ is in fact a front operation for AtBC, given the considerable overlap in personalities and substance, through it seems TSZ is working as a somewhat less scurrilous front intended to project an aura of “dialogue.” We are further entitled to infer and conclude that y70ou Dr Liddle are an enabler of the slander strategy, and that you have no intention to amend your ways.
And:
Exhibit no 1 for this is the blog you are maintaining as a front operation for the fever swamp conspiracyism at AtBC.
You can infer all you like but it doesn't make you correct. But I guess being correct is not the issue here anymore. It's about attacking your perceived 'enemy'. Making yourself look strong and righteous. Rhetoric over reason. You may have managed to muzzle Joe but you haven't changed the well-poisoning tactics used by yourself and others on this forum. But then, if I am a brain-dead, evo-zombie, materialist, Christian-hating Darwinist I would say that.Jerad
September 19, 2013
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Kairosfocus: I really think you need to calm down. You have a lot to worry about at the moment, and your language is becoming really alarming. Surely even you can see the irony of comparing me to Goebbels? Take a break from worrying about TSZ. It's just a little low traffic blog in an obscure corner of the internet. When things are going better for you, it may be easier for you to take a longer view. I wish you and yours the very best LizzieElizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Jerad: more turnabout attempts in the teeth of repeated correction. I can stand by the record above. At no point have you or your ilk properly warranted grave accusations and it is evident that they are in fact groundless, rooted in things like pretzel twisting of the so-called Wedge document. Again I put this on the table to show the repeated unresponsiveness to correction of slander. Do you not see that that in and of itself more than warrants some pretty stringent conclusions about enabling good cop behaviour that supports slander by the AtBC etc bad cops. Think again and do better, or face the consequence of your behaviour, utter loss of credibility. KFkairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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In that context, enabling good cop behaviour in the teeth of repeated correction plainly is also of the same taint.
I knew he couldn't resist using 'in the teeth of' for too long!!Jerad
September 19, 2013
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PS: It is worth saying what I have often noted of scientists and science educators from a classic cat out of the bag comment by Lewontin, for years:
the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them . . . the proper definition of "self evident"; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> equal to reality for materialists] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [In case you imagine this clip from RL's 1997 NYRB essay is out of context and without proper reference kindly cf. the more extended citation and notes here.]
In short, ideological bias and question-begging that distorts the nature and understanding of science and its findings. This is not fraud in and of itself, but it causes major error. There are of course notorious cases of fraud, from Haeckel's embryos that were in use to deceive for 100 years, to the notorious Piltdown man that had nearly a 50 year run, to the bird dinosaurs that forced Nat Geog to retract. What is not so obvious but is worrying is consistent misrepresentation of design theory, the design movement and design thinkers by people on the other side in a position to easily know and do better [e.g. they have been repeatedly corrected but insist on willfully and often patently malice driven distortions], such as the current case of slanders at TSZ and the current case of censorship at BSU. In that context, enabling good cop behaviour in the teeth of repeated correction plainly is also of the same taint.kairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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Have you forgotten that just now you are hosting a slander and hate fest at your own blog that is driven by people with decade long agendas of animosity manifesting in false and malicious willful misrepresentations amounting to conspiracy theories that design theory is fraud (when anyone could ascertain the actual substance which consistently objectors such as yourself distort). That looks a lot like speaking with disregard to truth hoping to profit from falsehood being perceived as truth to me. Similarly there is a lurid fantasy and scapegoating exercise that projects unto Christians imagined neo-nazi theocratic tyrannical plots that are used to justify hate speech, abuse, censorship and career busting, often connected to what has been called Bush Derangement syndrome.
In short, you are simply digging in your heels and saying that by projecting unto you what I have been enabling, you are to blame for the slander directed at you. Fully worthy of applause by Dr Goebbels.
And as for TSZ’s front status, this is plain from the people involved, the common talking points, the common slanders, and smears. You may well have originally intended TSZ to be a fair forum but what it has become is just what I have said. Your status as an enabler of slander emanating from an obvious source is plain.
And no, Jerad, a well warranted conclusion does not need apology in the face of a turnabout attempt based on further misrepresentations. I read the above as more of the same, straight out of the Alinsky playbook, and then beyond him Dr Goebbels.
You really do need to take a break and consider your statements and accusations. At least you didn't use the phrase 'in the teeth of.' I was really getting tired of that one.Jerad
September 19, 2013
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EL, 438:
I am regularly incensed by accusations here and elsewhere that scientists commit fraud in order to push a materialist agenda. Read William’s OP of this very thread:
And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians. They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).
Your own posts are frequently laced with such accusations, and dire warnings about what you are “up against here”.
H'mm, EL, do you remember that Mr Dawkins leads a movement known as the New Atheists that sets out to do pretty much as WJM describes? That views bringing up a child within a theistic tradition as child abuse worse than sexual abuse? That as we speak, censorship is happening in BSU? That on wider fronts, people of principled conscience are being harassed, robbed of employment and enterprise, are being dragged before courts and are suffering for conscience? Not just in Pakistan, but in our own civilisation? I don't need to talk about merely verbal and social expressions of that hostility. I will only mention the attempt to out and threaten my uninvolved family, which has been cosseted at forums in the circle of hostile sites we are dealing with. Have you forgotten that just now you are hosting a slander and hate fest at your own blog that is driven by people with decade long agendas of animosity manifesting in false and malicious willful misrepresentations amounting to conspiracy theories that design theory is fraud (when anyone could ascertain the actual substance which consistently objectors such as yourself distort). That looks a lot like speaking with disregard to truth hoping to profit from falsehood being perceived as truth to me. Similarly there is a lurid fantasy and scapegoating exercise that projects unto Christians imagined neo-nazi theocratic tyrannical plots that are used to justify hate speech, abuse, censorship and career busting, often connected to what has been called Bush Derangement syndrome. And more. So, it seems to me that what we have here is turnabout false accusations resting on misrepresentations of easily accessible facts, the better to stereotype and scapegoat targets of bile. Where there is in fact a long train of abuses and usurpations to justify WJM's observation about enmity and culture war. In short, you are simply digging in your heels and saying that by projecting unto you what I have been enabling, you are to blame for the slander directed at you. Fully worthy of applause by Dr Goebbels. Sorry, bland denials by an enabler or two joined to turnabout accusations and further misrepresentations don't cut it. And as for TSZ's front status, this is plain from the people involved, the common talking points, the common slanders, and smears. You may well have originally intended TSZ to be a fair forum but what it has become is just what I have said. Your status as an enabler of slander emanating from an obvious source is plain. (Onlookers, if you want a more detailed discussion try Nullasalus' summary in 165 above:
I would love to paste some good ol’ posts from the TSZ regulars and friends, courtesy of After the Bar Closes – but there’s no way to do so without violating several of this site’s standards regarding language, to say nothing of courtesy. And before anyone whines that I’m being quite disrespectful of the TSZ’s atheist crew, let me say – I’m well aware. They, unlike other selective skeptics and atheists, deserve it. I’ll say it again: dialogue and debate requires, absolutely requires, sincere mutual respect and common ground. Various atheists, ID skeptics, and more have this. Some do not. TSZ tends to be a vortex of those who do not, and they’ve got a track record of hate going back roundabout a decade. Contra Gregory, I’ll put the track record of UD – and it has downs as well as ups – against theirs any day of the week, in terms of not only content of thought (even when I disagree with it), but civility. I simply don’t believe in feigning congeniality with people who do not deserve it.
And no, Jerad, a well warranted conclusion does not need apology in the face of a turnabout attempt based on further misrepresentations. I read the above as more of the same, straight out of the Alinsky playbook, and then beyond him Dr Goebbels. KFkairosfocus
September 19, 2013
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Dr Liddle, comment 459:
I honestly don’t think he gets it.
I'm sure he doesn't. He seems to be coming unstuck generally. But it has to be noted that someone with thread posting privileges at UD is over the stated lines. Unless, of course, the rest of the UD moderators and authors condone his views. If they agree with what he's been posting then . . .Jerad
September 19, 2013
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I honestly don't think he gets it.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Dr Liddle, comment 440:
Well, I don’t think it is slander to express a derogatory opinion of someone on a blog. No lawyer I know thinks so.
Perhaps GEM's comment is not strictly slander. But he expressed it as a statement of fact and not opinion. He clearly intended to harm your reputation at least in the eyes of readers of UD. He offered no evidence in support of his statement. And, most interestingly, he has no participated in this thread since then. I think GEM knows he overstepped a line but will not admit it. I call on him to either establish his statement with evidence or rescind it. I'm tired of what seems to me to be an obvious double standard wherein 'friendly' UD posters get away with saying whatever they wish short of actual profanity but unfriendly commenters can be banned just for disagreeing.
And KF’s idea that TSZ is a “front organisation” for anything is absurd. I do occasionally post at AtBC, but I am not ashamed of that. I have occasionally been shocked at stuff I’ve encountered there, and have let my protest be known (not being backward about being forward).
You are being condemned by association. If GEM thought you were using similar logic with him he'd object strenuously. Let's see if GEM is honourable enough to support his claim or withdraw it.Jerad
September 19, 2013
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I don't know what you mean by "Darwinism". And I made no claims about "Darwinism" in that post, apart from the fact that it's not a hypothesis. At least not in any version of English I know.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle says:
I don’t know what “Darwinism” is, and I am not a “Darwinist”
Elizabeth Liddle also says:
“Darwinism” is not a hypothesis. By any definition of Darwinism, or rape, the view that rape is “nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution” is absurd”. By comparison, the claim that Darwinism says that evolutionary theory is sufficient to account for life is only a little bit wrong. And if nobody here thinks that’s what Darwinism says, I’m delighted. Because of course, it would be an invalid claim.
One wonders, if she does not know what Darwinism is, how can she make these claims about Darwinism?William J Murray
September 19, 2013
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You’re folding back upon yourself. When the horse is dead, get off.
For pete's sake, Upright Biped, they mean exactly the same thing! And as I don't trust your "goodbye" i.e. I don't trust you not to go around saying that I am a liar, let me show you: Non-self-replicator TO Simple Darwinian-capable self-replicator: Can't be done by Darwinian evolution. Simple Darwinian-capable self-replicator TO DNA-RNA-protein self-replicator: Can be done by Darwinian evolution. Get it? My initial proposal was to do step one. Then you asked for the end point of step 2. I never proposed that I could get from the end point of step 2 without step 1. So my plan was to attempt both steps.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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Upright Biped You are confused Dr Liddle. “Self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success” isn’t known to exist anywhere but in living systems, and those systems use a physicochemically-arbitrary protocol instantiated in their operation. I am not confused, Upright Biped. I know perfectly well that all known instances of "Self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success" that are not man-made are DNA based. But that begs the question as to whether a simpler Darwinian-capable system is possible. You may believe that it is not, but it is, literally, begging the question (petitio principii) to say that it is not possible because we have not observed any instances, and therefore there can have been no instances of it because it is not possible. It is the contention of OOL researchers that it is possible. They may be wrong, but simply saying "it's never been observed" is not a persuasive argument. The Szostak lab have already made substantial headway in proof-of-principle studies of various components of a putative simpler self-replicator (a lipid vesicle in a nucleotide-rich environment).
It’s a physical necessity in order to input informational constraint over a deterministic system capable of producing the effect prescribed by the information. Self–replicating cells are not made of nucleotides, so at some point the informational medium must map to something other than the informational medium. And that will require a semiotic state.
I cannot make any sense of your first sentence here. AS for the second, we are not necessarily talking about self-replicating modern cells. In Szostak's scenario we are talking about lipid vesicles, which grow and divide, which are permeable to nucleotides but not polynucleotides, and which therefore tend to absorb nucleotides which then form double-stranded polynucleotides within the cell. These strands periodically dissociate and reform, resulting in replication of the strand. When the whole vesicle then divides in two, we have two vesicles each containing copies of the original strands. The only informational mapping that has taken place is during the replication of the polynucleotide.
What you’ve done is confuse reality with a projection from your imagination; you simply assume your speculation is true.
No, I have not. All science is about "imagination" in the sense that we invent models - but those models are then tested against data. I am certainly not assuming the Szostak model is true, although it looks very promising. On the contrary, you appear to be assuming that no such model is possible, on the apparent grounds that you don't know of any system that has been observed to work that way. That is confusing what we know can be with what can be.
Moreover, you want to rebut observations you cannot refute, by means of an appeal to that assumption. Do you think that an advocate of materialism should be made to demonstrate that a material process can exists prior to argiung that it does? Given your robust respect for the rules of science, what exactly is the standard for that?
No, I do want to "rebut observations I cannot refute". If your somewhat tortured prose boils down to the observation "all known self-replicators that replicate with heritable variance in reproductive success use DNA-RNA-protein" then I entirely agree. I'm not sure what the rest of your words above mean, but clearly, modern organisms, and indeed, almostly certainly all fossilised organisms, use the DNA-RNA-protein system, and if you want to call that "semiotic", then I agreed that by the definition of semiosis you gave, it is. There is no argument from me on that score. My point is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You cannot take an example and then declare by fiat that it is the only possible example. And the entire field of OOL is predicated on the hypothesis that the DNA-RNA-protein system evolved from something much simpler, and it that it was that much simpler thing that emerged from a soup of non-self-replicators.
In any case, your rebuttal in #446 only demonstrates once again that you understand the issues. Your retort that you don’t understand the observations (posted immediately under your previous explanations of those observations) is horribly strained, and it remains dishonest by any reasonable definition of the word.
It actually did not even occur to me that what I'd written was some kind of equivalent to your final paragraph. It doesn't seem to bear much resemblance to me.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 19, 2013
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