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Difference between Organization and Order

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In my previous post Silver Asiatic asked:

“What do you mean by organization being of a higher order than simple order? Why don’t these [natural] forces produce organization? Those are better areas for discussion, in my opinion.” (comment #122)

Organization

I think the distinction organization vs. order is fundamental in the design / evolution debate. Perhaps the easiest way to help us understand this difference is to consider computer software. Software clearly implies the four basic aspects of organization I listed there: hierarchy of functions and tasks, control-power, inter-process communication. Also biological systems, from cells to higher organisms, show all these aspects (“organ-isms” contain organs). Life is software. (Disclaimer: obviously here I consider only the cybernetic aspects of biology, I am not dealing with mind, soul, spirit, etc..) Organisms are organized as computer networks. This sort of isomorphism (similar mathematical structure) between software and biology is also the reason why one needs the former to understand, model and simulate the latter.

Organization is what gives a multiplicity of parts an organic unity. In other words, organization is an holistic concept, according to which a true whole is higher than the sum of its parts (see here). The parts of an airplane per se don’t fly, their organization causes this capacity of the whole airplane. Analogously, the chemicals per se don’t make life, their organization causes the life capacity of the whole organism. Life is organization.

Box rightly said:

“These arguments from organization stem from holism. When we observe an organism, we observe a whole. We do not observe a bag of chemicals, as materialism/Darwinism wants us to believe.” (comment #82)

Similarly:

“The living being has inside himself his own principle of unity, superior to the multiplicity of the elements that take part in his constitution.” (René Guénon, “Autorité spirituelle et pouvoir temporel”, chap. 5 [my translation])

Order

Differently, order is lower in essence than organization. Order means simply configuration, pattern, layout of elements in the space. Examples: my books are ordered in their book-shelf; atoms are ordered in the crystals; cars are ordered in the parking. No one of the above aspects of organization is present. Order is simple static patterns, organization is complex dynamic systems. In computer programming order can be formalized by means of mere definition and assignment of variables (the simplest thing of software). Example, the bookshelf layout can be described (in Perl language) by means of a single variable $bookshelf:

$bookshelf = <<EOV;
BB BBBBB BB
———————–
BB BBB
———————–
BBBBB BBBB
———————–
EOV

No function, no task, no control, no communication is necessary to describe the bookshelf layout. In general, order needs simply the definition of variables and the assignment of values, which the computer will store in its memory. If to define order implies only the simplest software concept, while to define organization we need all the more complex stuff of software, that means that order has inferior rank than organization.

If we have to model the working of a biological cell we need all the organizational power of a programming language: functions, processes, controls, communication and many other advanced features. Example, in computer programming the simplest decision instruction able to perform a control or regulation has the structure:

# prior situation
if (_conditions_) {
_action1_
} else {
_action2_
}
# after situation

Note that decision implies choice among two or more alternatives, depending on conditions. A decision breaks the causal chain and inserts a choice discontinuity between "prior situation" and "after situation". These kind of decisional constructs can be nested ad libitum in a program to create complex control chains. Software is control. But "complex control/regulation chains" is a ritornello you find also countless times in the texts on cellular biology or systems biology. Norbert Wiener defines cybernetics as the science that deals with "control and communication in systems and organisms". Similarly, in Mike Behe's "Darwin's black box" the string "control*" appears 66 times and the string "regulat*" 62 times. Behe explicitly writes:

“The essence of cellular life is regulation: the cell controls how much and what kinds of chemicals it makes; when it loses control, it dies.” (“Darwin’s black box”, chap 9, pag. 191)

Why don’t natural forces produce organization?

Natural laws can be described by means of a basic set of equations. These equations represent the direct relations between variables, and directly assign values to these variables. Here a key point is the term “direct” and “directly”. Example, in classical physics the Newton’s formula “f=m*a” assigns a value to “f” (or “m” or “a”) when the other two are known. That’s simple. The formula doesn’t contain the least control structure, implying a discontinuity. In fact Newton’s second law of motion is not something like this:

# prior situation
f= {if (_conditions_) {_action1(m) _} else {_action2(m) _}} * a
# after situation

Note that in the original formula f=m*a, between a “prior situation” and an “after situation”, there is no discontinuity due to decisions that break the causation by introducing choices (as massively exist in software). This is an important point: in natural laws there aren’t decisions; natural laws have no choices. This is true for all physical laws, also when they are expressed as differential equations (wave equation, Maxwell’s equations, Schrödinger equation…). This lack of decision-control-choice implies that natural laws potentially contain no organization, in the sense I defined at the beginning.

Since natural laws contain in potency no organization to greater reason they cannot create organization. In fact in general what creates must always be higher in essence and more powerful than what is created. Otherwise we would have an illogic situation where more comes from less. In a similar sense Thomas Aquinas said “Since in the world there are many intelligent causes, the first Motor couldn’t cause unintelligently.” (Summa contra Gentiles, I, 44 [my translation]). If the organizational potential of the cause is zero, a fortiori the organization of its effects is zero. In Aristotelian terms, if a thing is null “in potency”, is also null “in act”. So it is impossible that natural laws, as we know them, produce organization.

Obviously if natural laws (necessity) are unable to create organization, to greater reason randomness (chance) is unable. In fact, randomness not even has the minimum power that natural laws have and provide. Chance is lower in rank than laws. If chance and necessity, taken alone, are incapable of organization, also considered working together they are incapable (the sum of two zeroes is zero).

Conclusion: given chance and necessity per se are incapable to produce organization, the best explanation for the formidable organization of the universe and its living beings is a designing Intelligence (Source of knowledge), who has thought it as an overall organic unique project.

Comments
Zachriel #24
Your argument was that you can’t get from F = ma to organization. But that sort of handwaving can just as easily be used to argue you can’t get from F = ma to the type of ordering found in many non-biological examples.
F=ma was only a simple example of an equation of physics. So, we should try to generalize by considering the set of all physical equations. These equations govern matter and energy, both at the macro and micro levels. As such they are responsible of all the "ordering found in many non-biological examples". Comes to mind the example of crystals. The process of crystal formation from a fluid is explainable by those equations and the environment parameters. At the macro level an example could be the ordered shape of spiral galaxies. Again, we have a sort of geometrical order coming from the astrophysics equations. My argument doesn't refute at all such ordering, which can be also spectacular per se. My aim is not to depreciate order. But distinctions are necessary. Organization is far beyond any sort of order, because entails countless levels of increasing conceptual sophistication, which transcend all what is potentially contained in whatever equation.niwrad
November 29, 2014
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niwrad: Weather is neither organized nor self-organized. As Mung says shortly, weather organization is “nonsense”. We agree that the level of organization in a cell is far and away greater than in weather or other non-biological examples. And while self-organization already has an established meaning which includes weather, certainly you can draw a distinction between that and the organization found in biology. Your argument was that you can't get from F = ma to organization. But that sort of handwaving can just as easily be used to argue you can't get from F = ma to the type of ordering found in many non-biological examples.Zachriel
November 29, 2014
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Zachriel #22
Weather is considered to be a self-organized system by researchers in both meteorology and researchers in complex systems.
Go figure, also Darwinism is considered to be organizing by researchers in biology and instead it is an absurdity. Weather is neither organized nor self-organized. As Mung says shortly, weather organization is "nonsense". But of course you continue to claim weather "organization" because you know that the concept of organization destroys your Darwinism.niwrad
November 28, 2014
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DATCG: Weather is self-ordered, not self-organized. While we understand that niwrad is trying to draw a distinction, the fact is that weather is considered to be a self-organized system by researchers in both meteorology and researchers in complex systems. DATCG: A weather “system” is an informal pattern which cannot compute algorithmic functions or purpose them with intention of communication to the ground. No, weather doesn't have intention, but it's not clear that bacteria do either. Intention seems to be a property of higher mental states.Zachriel
November 28, 2014
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How about this, Bricks in a row is order. Two layers of bricks become organisation. The more layers of bricks the higher the order, and thus there must be higher organisation.logically_speaking
November 28, 2014
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Zachriel #17 My argument was based on parallelism between true organization and software. You continue to say that weather is organized, it is like to say that weather is software. Don't you realize the enormity? It is likely your job is not in the computer industry..niwrad
November 28, 2014
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DATCG @6, thanks for the linkVishnu
November 28, 2014
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Quotes from David Abel and Jack Trevors paper link above in #6
"Physical phase changes cannot write algorithms."
Weather is self-ordered, not self-organized. Organization describes higher level algorithmic function(s) with elaborate, formalized communications systems. These systems incorporate prescriptive information and feedback loops, along with error detection and correction. A weather "system" is an informal pattern which cannot compute algorithmic functions or purpose them with intention of communication to the ground. Nor the ground to the weather "system." The ground does not say to the weather above, "I am dry" therefor rain, nor does the weather "system" receive any such claim and based upon message send out complex feedback loops to determine if the ground is dry, how dry and how much rain should fall in what specific location, for specific period of time. There is no formal communication between ground and weather "system." We would never claim a hurricane "self-organized" and built a high-rise condominium in Miami with designer colors and features of latest technological achievements by master builders, architects, artist, engineers, electricians, and software coders for electronic monitoring systems, and climate control. A hurricane appears over time as self-ordered. It wipes out everything in it's path, destroying what is organized by intelligent beings and then dissipates. Weather is not organized. This blog is organized. From Abel and Trevors paper(link posted #6):
"Self-ordering phenomena are observed daily in accord with chaos theory. But under no known circumstances can self-ordering phenomena like hurricanes, sand piles, crystallization, or fractals produce algorithmic organization. Algorithmic "self-organization" has never been observed [70] despite numerous publications that have misused the term [21,151-162]. Bone fide organization always arises from choice contingency, not chance contingency or necessity."
DATCG
November 28, 2014
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Zachriel: Weather is an example of self-organized complexity. Mung: Nonsense. Actually, weather is a canonical example of a self-organizing system. niwrad: if you deny the essential difference between a language communication and a “communication” between air masses I doubt I can convince you about anything related to organization wrt intelligent design. Sure they are different. Language is generally composed of discrete elements, while the components of communication within a storm complex are distributed. Nonetheless, storms are self-organizing systems. Let's look at your argument again. niwrad: Why don’t natural forces produce organization? Natural laws can be described by means of a basic set of equations... This is an important point: in natural laws there aren’t decisions; natural laws have no choices. And yet a hurricane seemingly can either go one way or another. We may have a good handle on the specifics of how it makes its choice; but perhaps we just don't understand how a brain or organism or genome makes a choice, and that if we did, it would be like predicting a hurricane. Not arguing that's the case, but just pointing out that your argument is not as strong as you make it to be.Zachriel
November 28, 2014
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Zachriel #12
But there has to be communication or the storm cell couldn’t organize.
Sorry, but if you deny the essential difference between a language communication and a "communication" between air masses I doubt I can convince you about anything related to organization wrt intelligent design.niwrad
November 28, 2014
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Zachriel: Weather is an example of self-organized complexity. Nonsense.Mung
November 28, 2014
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A storm cell may go this way or that way.
BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA Nice one, ZachJoe
November 28, 2014
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But there has to be communication or the storm cell couldn’t organize.
How are you defining "communication" and how is it present in the formation of a storm cell?Joe
November 28, 2014
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niwad: Evolutionism is based on an alleged total “continuity” of substantial degree between order and organization. Not sure what you are saying. No one doubts that cells are highly organized. niwad: For example, a communication based on signals of a language or protocol, as in organisms, is something of different kind than a “communication” between masses of air, as in storm cells. As we said, it's of an 'alien' kind to someone expecting discrete components. But there has to be communication or the storm cell couldn't organize. niwad: Note that decision implies choice among two or more alternatives, depending on conditions. A decision breaks the causal chain and inserts a choice discontinuity between "prior situation" and "after situation". A storm cell may go this way or that way. It looks just like choice.Zachriel
November 28, 2014
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Zachriel #10
We don’t want to argue the parallels [between storm cells and bio-cells] too strongly, because there are obvious differences, but the parallels exist nonetheless, and it seems more a matter of degree than of kind.
Evolutionism is based on an alleged total "continuity" of substantial degree between order and organization. But organization is eminently essential kinds. It is an (unlimited) hierarchical series of conceptual discontinuities. Being a product of intelligence, organization is all a matter of kind, not a matter of simple degree. For example, a communication based on signals of a language or protocol, as in organisms, is something of different kind than a "communication" between masses of air, as in storm cells.niwrad
November 28, 2014
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niwrad: You said it yourself, “is nowhere near as complex as”. Sure. niwrad: A storm cell is an air mass containing movements of warm or cool air. These movements are not hierarchies of devices. Devices is a term of art. A storm cell has what can be considered components, though they are not as distinct as those in cells or human machines. niwrad: No communication exists between systems by means of signals as exists in software or cells. There's communication, or the storm cell couldn't form. That's what is meant by organization. niwrad: A storm cell is not a cybernetic system, while a biological cell is. Again, cybernetic is a term of art. There is communication and control in a storm cell. If there weren't, it couldn't form an organized structure. It's just 'alien' to someone who expects it to look a certain way. niwrad: You can describe the process of a storm cell by means of the fluid-dynamics equations, while you cannot do that for describing the biological cell. You can describe all the physical processes in computer cybernetics. We don't want to argue the parallels too strongly, because there are obvious differences, but the parallels exist nonetheless, and it seems more a matter of degree than of kind.Zachriel
November 28, 2014
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Zachriel #8
While the level of organization in a storm cell is nowhere near as complex as in a biological cell, it is certainly organized, and calls into question your argument.
You said it yourself, "is nowhere near as complex as". A storm cell is an air mass containing movements of warm or cool air. These movements are not hierarchies of devices. No control exists in the sense I mean control, or control as exists in the biological cell. No communication exists between systems by means of signals as exists in software or cells. A storm cell is not a cybernetic system, while a biological cell is. You can describe the process of a storm cell by means of the fluid-dynamics equations, while you cannot do that for describing the biological cell. If a storm cell is organized then nothing in nature is really not organized.niwrad
November 28, 2014
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niwrad: Weather is entirely subject to the equations of fluid dynamics (Navier-Stokes…) and thermodynamics (Boltzmann, Gibbs…). We know that now, but before we had a simplifying explanation, the chaotic tendencies of weather were attributed to the chaotic tendencies of an intelligent designer. niwrad: There is no organization in the sense I mean it, functional and task hierarchies, control-decision, communication among tasks… Oddly enough, people who study self-organization consider weather to be self-organizing. Storm cells function to move water from one place to another. There are hierarchies within the cell involved in fulfilling this task, storms seemingly make decisions as to which path to follow, and areas of the storm cell obviously must communicate in order to generate the organization entailed in the cell. While the level of organization in a storm cell is nowhere near as complex as in a biological cell, it is certainly organized, and calls into question your argument.Zachriel
November 28, 2014
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Zachriel #5
Weather is an example of self-organized complexity.
Weather is entirely subject to the equations of fluid dynamics (Navier-Stokes...) and thermodynamics (Boltzmann, Gibbs...). There is no organization in the sense I mean it, functional and task hierarchies, control-decision, communication among tasks... Weather doesn't "self-organize" at all, because the above physical equations governing fluids and gases give it all the potentialities it develops in the atmosphere. Even weather "self-nothing", because it is not properly an active "self", an agent, rather is a mere passive object.niwrad
November 28, 2014
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Nice subject to post and good explanation. There's a paper in Theoretical Biology by David Abel and Jack Trevors on this subject of defining and identifying levels of complexity. Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information From the abstract... Random, Ordered and Functional Sequence Complexity:
Genetic algorithms instruct sophisticated biological organization. Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC). FSC alone provides algorithmic instruction.
No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).
They elaborate on definitions and address the issues of complexity of life as not being a simple pattern developed by random or ordered sequence complexity. That only Functional(Organized) Sequence Complexity can account for life.
The fundamental contention inherent in our three subsets of sequence complexity proposed in this paper is this: without volitional agency assigning meaning to each configurable-switch-position symbol, algorithmic function and language will not occur. The same would be true in assigning meaning to each combinatorial syntax segment (programming module or word). Source and destination on either end of the channel must agree to these assigned meanings in a shared operational context. Chance and necessity cannot establish such a cybernetic coding/decoding scheme [71].
I'm curious to know if anyone has falsified their four proposed Null HypothesesDATCG
November 27, 2014
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Weather is an example of self-organized complexity.Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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But given enough time anything can happen in the multiverse, right? :D Such as fitness functions poofing into existence by just the right accidents, and then going on to build wonderously complex systems and processes. Uh huh. Of course, incredulity is not an argument, but the OOL researchers haven't a foggy clue. It's ID's most powerful position. I like what vjtorley said about building a large model of the inner workings of a cell. Most people haven't a clue about it. Let people see what's really going on and let them decide and take whatever action they deem appropriate.Vishnu
November 27, 2014
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Thanks EugeneS and Silver Asiatic, very good comments, we are tuned on the same frequency. I was afraid to be unclear, but your comments confirm me that my ID message, with all its defects, has reached good ears, able to extract something good from it after all, and add also some significant elaborations.niwrad
November 27, 2014
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I agree with EugeneS - superb work niwrad! You offered a lot of clarity on a very difficult subject. The key point, I think, as ES stated is that organization refers to a "decision making system". There is something active in organization, vs the static condition of order. With order there is: "No function, no task, no control, no communication is necessary to describe the bookshelf layout." Communication -- a communication system or network requires an active relationship. There's a feedback loop from sender to receiver back to sender. Control -- in an organized system, there is an ordering-principle. Natural laws do not communication information since they don't require a feedback loop to validate success or failure. Gravity moves the rock downhill (so to speak) but does not require feedback from the rock to know if it reached its goal. Clouds cause rain to fall, but there is no informational relationship between the rain and cloud - nothing is reported back to the cloud when the rain hits the ground. Living systems are organizational. Every living system from the simple cell to human beings, have this informational network internally -- and an ordering principle.
Order is simple static patterns, organization is complex dynamic systems.
The parts of a dynamic system cannot create their own organization. “The essence of cellular life is regulation ..." Regulation is that if/then construct you provided. It's contingent like a decision-making process. The only concern I'd have is this ... can you reference this understanding of order vs organization in the scientific literature somewhere? I don't doubt the correctness of what you said, but I wonder if your view is shared in science. If not, that's still ok - although instead of order vs organization (if people dispute your definitions), you could replace "organization" with "dynamically organized systems" or something like that, to indicate the active (non-static) quality of what natural laws cannot produce.Silver Asiatic
November 27, 2014
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An excellent post! Matter is inert to organization. Organization is synonymous to irreducibility. Matter does not choose, it does not care if anything works, it is insensitive to pragmatic goals. Strikingly though, living systems can be modeled as decision making systems. Why? Because they are intelligently designed.EugeneS
November 27, 2014
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