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Failure of the “compensation argument” and implausibility of evolution

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Granville Sewell and Daniel Styer have a thing in common: both wrote an article with the same title “Entropy and evolution”. But they reach opposite conclusions on a fundamental question: Styer says that the evolutionist “compensation argument” (henceforth “ECA”) is ok, Sewell says it isn’t. Here I briefly explain why I fully agree with Granville. The ECA is an argument that tries to resolve the problems the 2nd law of statistical mechanics (henceforth 2nd_law_SM) posits to unguided evolution. I adopt Styer’s article as ECA archetype because he also offers calculations, which make clearer its failure.

The 2nd_law_SM as problem for evolution.

The 2nd_law_SM says that a isolated system goes toward its more probable macrostates. In this diagram the arrow represents the 2nd_law_SM rightward trend/direction:

organization … improbable_states … systems ====>>> probable_states

Sewell says:

“The second law is all about using probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change. […] This statement of the second law, or at least of the fundamental principle behind the second law, is the one that should be applied to evolution.”

The physical evolution of a isolated system passes spontaneously through macrostates with increasing values of probability until arriving to equilibrium (the most probable macrostate). Since organization is highly improbable a corollary of the 2nd_law_SM is that isolated systems don’t self-organize. That is the opposite of what biological evolution pretends.

See the picture:

cs1

Styer’s ECA.

Since the 2nd_law_SM applies to isolated systems the ECA says: the Earth E is not a isolated system, then its entropy can decrease thanks to an entropy increase (compensation) in the surroundings S (wrt to the energy coming from the Sun). Unfortunately to consider open the systems is useless, because, as Sewell puts it:

“If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.”

Here is how Styer applies the ECA to show that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”.
Suppose that, due to evolution, each individual organism is 1000 times more improbable that the corresponding individual was 100 years ago (Emory Bunn says 1000 times is incorrect, it should be 10^25 times, but this is a detail). If Wi is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of an initial organism I 100 years ago, and Wf is the number of microstates consistent with the specification of today’s improved and less probable organism F, then

Wf = Wi / 1000

At this point he uses Boltzmann’s formula:

S = k * ln (W)

where S = entropy, W = number of microstates, k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees, ln = logarithm.

Then he calculates the entropy change over 100 years, and finally the entropy decrease per second:

Sf – Si = -3.02 x 10^-30 joules/degrees

By considering all individuals of all species he gets the change in entropy of the biosphere each second: -302 joules/degrees. Since he knows that the Earth’s physical entropy throughput (due to energy from the Sun) each second is: 420 x 10^12 joules/degrees he concludes: “at a minimum the Earth is bathed in about one trillion times the amount of entropy flux required to support the rate of evolution assumed here”, then evolution is largely consistent with the 2nd law.

The problem in Styer’s argument (and in general in the ECA).

Although it could seem an innocent issue of measure units the introduction of the Boltzmann’s formula with k = 1.38 x 10^-23 joules/degrees in this context is a conceptual error. With such formula the ECA has transformed a difficult problem of probability (in connection with the arise of ultra-complex organized systems) into a simple issue of energy (“joule” is unit of energy, work, or amount of heat). This assumes a priori that energy is able to organize organisms from sparse atoms. But such assumption is totally gratuitous and unproved. That energy can do that is exactly what the ECA should prove in the first place. So Styer’s ECA begs the question.

Similarly Andy McIntosh (cited by Sewell) says:

Both Styer and Bunn calculate by slightly different routes a statistical upper bound on the total entropy reduction necessary to ‘achieve’ life on earth. This is then compared to the total entropy received by the Earth for a given period of time. However, all these authors are making the same assumption—viz. that all one needs is sufficient energy flow into a [non-isolated] system and this will be the means of increasing the probability of life developing in complexity and new machinery evolving. But as stated earlier this begs the question…

The Boltzmann’s formula in the ECA, with its introduction of joules of energy, establishes a bridge between probabilities and the joules coming from the Sun. Unfortunately this link is unsubstantiated here because no one has proved that joules cause biological organization. On the contrary, in my previous post “The illusion of organizing energy” I explained why any kind of energy per se cannot create organization in principle. To greater reason, thermal energy is unable to the task. In fact, heat is the more degraded and disordered kind of energy, the one with maximum entropy. So the ECA would contain also an internal contradiction: by importing entropy in E one decreases entropy in E!

The problem of Boltzmann’s formula, as used in the ECA, is then “to buy” probability bonus with energy “money”. Sewell expresses the same concept with different words:

The compensation argument is predicated on the idea […] that the universal currency for entropy is thermal entropy.

That conversion / compensation is not allowed if one hasn’t proved at the outset a direct causation role of energy in producing the effect, biological organization, which is in the opposite direction of the 2nd_law_SM rightward arrow (extreme left on the above diagram). In a sense the ECA conflates two different planes. This wrong conflation is like to say that a roulette placed inside a refrigerated room can easily output 1 million “black” in a row because its entropy is decreased compared to the outside.

Note that evolution doesn’t imply a single small deviation from the trend, quite differently it implies countless highly improbable processes happened continually in countless organisms during billion years. Who claims that evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd_law_SM, would doubt a violation if countless tornados always turned rubble into houses, cars and computers for billion years? Sewell asks (backward tornado is the metaphor he uses more). In conclusion Roger Caillois is right: “Clausius and Darwin cannot both be right.”

Implausibility of evolution.

Styer’s paper is also an opportunity to see the problem of evolution from a probabilistic viewpoint. You will note the huge difference of difficulty of the probabilistic scenario compared to the above enthusiastic thermal entropy scenario, with potentially 1,000,000,000,000 times evolution!
In Appendix #2 he proposes a problem for students: “How much improved and less probable would each organism be, relative to its (possibly single-celled) ancestor at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion? (Answer: 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22 times)”. Call this monster number “a”, Wi = the initial microstates, Wf = the final microstates, W = the total microstates. According to Styer’s answer (which is correct as calculation) we have:

Wf = Wi / a

The probability of the initial macrostate is Wi / W. The probability of the final macrostate is Wf / W. Suppose Wf = 1, then Wi is = a. W must be equal or greater a otherwise (Wi / W) would be greater than 1 (impossible). Therefore the probability to occur of the final macrostate is:

(Wf / W) equal or less (1 / a)

This is the probability of evolution of a single individual organism in the Cambrian:

1 on 10 raised to the 1.8 x 10^22

a number with more than 10^22 digits (10 trillion billion digits). This miraculous event had to occur 10^18 times, for each of other organisms.

Dembski’s “universal probability bound” is:

1 / 10^150

1 on a number with “only” 150 digits. Therefore evolution is far beyond the plausibility threshold. In conclusion: the ECA fails to prove that “evolution is consistent with the 2nd law”, and we have also a proof of the implausibility of evolution based on probability.

Some could object: “you cannot have both ways, if the ECA is wrong then Appendix #2 is wrong too, because it uses the same method, then the evolution probability is not correct”.
Answer: the method is biased toward evolution both in ECA and in Appendix #2. This means the evolution probability is even worse than that, and the implausibility of evolution holds to greater reason.

Comments
Another useful vid giving an idea of statistical underpinnings: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/entropy-chemistry-sal/v/reconciling-thermodynamic-and-state-definitions-of-entropykairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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phoenix Yes, the Trinity is incoherent (in Christianese, it’s a “mystery”). I say, Calling something a Mystery is not the same saying it's incoherent. Just because we can't understand how both a part and the whole can be ultimate does not mean such a thing is illogical. There is no logical contradiction in our understanding of the Trinity. You say But unlike you, your fellow Christians at least try to limit the incoherence to God. I say, I'm sorry but when Christians say that whole things actually exist and are not just "arrangements of matter" that we can "treat as whole entities" we are doing precisely that. We are simply declaring that the design is a reflection of the designer. You say, They don’t go around insisting that toilets are “ultimate”, when a well-placed whack from a sledgehammer proves otherwise. I say, A toilet is still a toilet even if it has been broken with a sledge hammer. A car is still a car even if you remove the engine. A person is still a person even if we remove his gallbladder. A musical note written with ink is still a note even if a bit is absorbed into the paper The United States is still the United States even when an individual person dies. a coin sitting heads up is still a coin even if an atom of copper is lost to the environment. This is simple basic stuff. Come on man use your head. You will never understand the 2nd law argument until you understand that whole things (macrostates) actually exist in their own right and are not just useful fictions. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 6, 2015
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kairosfocus:
PS: Joe, actually, so soon as a designer engages in constructive work in the physical world, 2LOT applies. But patently, such has credible mass, energy and info flows, plus an energy converter-constructor system, and exhaustion of relevant degraded energy and wastes are no problem. The analysis of the Maxwell Demon gives a case in point.
OK, true. My point is the 2LoT doesn't apply to the design part- as in it does not prevent intelligent designers from designing nor would it prevent the design from working as designed..Joe
April 6, 2015
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Khan academy on MD: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/entropy-chemistry-sal/v/maxwell-s-demon (A bit simplistic, but it helps. I cringed when he said some Molecules may have EK near absolute zero, but let's cut him some slack.)kairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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Piotr,
A perpetuum mobile of the second kind (PP2) is by definition a system that spontaneously converts thermal energy into work without a compensatory export of entropy. That’s actually the hallmark of all PP2 proposals: they all violate the 2LoT . . .
. . . prezactly. Where is the relevant export process connected to an empirically credible energy converter and constructor, tied to mass, energy and info flows relevant to the FSCO/I to be instantiated? I can see such in say existing photosynthesis or protein synthesis, but ab initio in Darwin's pond or the like? In short, life as we observe it does not violate 2LOT, but the proposed blind watchmaker accounts for OOL skirt precisely that perpetuum mobile, as no relevant energy converter and constructor are there coupling to the in flows and exhausting degraded energy and usually wastes. Similarly, for OO novel body plans, say in the Cambrian, we have major molecular level innovations held to in effect synthesise massive FSCO/I of order 10 - 100+ mn bits just for genome innovations, on no credible process that bridges the config spaces to novel islands of function. Appealing to incremental differential reproductive success cannot hack it when FSCO/I comes in islands of function. Again, no relevant mass, energy and esp info flows going to energy converters and constructors. Trying, again, to get info out of lucky noise, where without a viable coupling mechanism fed by the right info flows coming from an empirically credible source, exhausting of degraded energy and wastes is moot. Appealing to the earth or to a pond in it or to organisms in an ecosystem etc. as being open systems does not answer to the relevance issue or the information/ organisation synthesis issue. The only empirically warranted source of FSCO/I is intelligently designed configuration. And of course, there is an unanswered show-me, vera causa adequate cause issue here also. One last thing, I am by no means "conceding" -- loaded word that hints of an attitude you need to change -- that observed life comports with 2LOT. I am basing my analysis on its statistical underpinnings and the linked observed pattern of relevant couplings and energy-mass-info flows connected to construction and configurational work. With, say, protein synthesis as a capital case in point of real world molecular nanotech. Have you seen jumbo jets or even the D'Arsonval galvanometer based cockpit instruments assembled out of a tornado passing through a junkyard near the Boeing plant? Or, the like? Why not? KF PS: Joe, actually, so soon as a designer engages in constructive work in the physical world, 2LOT applies. But patently, such has credible mass, energy and info flows, plus an energy converter-constructor system, and exhaustion of relevant degraded energy and wastes are no problem. The analysis of the Maxwell Demon gives a case in point.kairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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phoenix is clueless:
Last, niwrad seems to believe that the second law forbids the spontaneous production of “organization”, which if true would mean that the second law is violated every time a tree takes disorganized substances and forms them into a nice, organized tree branch.
That's just stupid talk. This is an intelligently designed universe and trees are intelligently designed organisms. The 2LoT does not apply to intelligent design.Joe
April 6, 2015
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KF:
...the attempt to get complex organisation out of lucky noise runs perilously close to suggesting a perpetuum mobile of the 2nd kind
A perpetuum mobile of the second kind (PP2) is by definition a system that spontaneously converts thermal energy into work without a compensatory export of entropy. That's actually the hallmark of all PP2 proposals: they all violate the 2LoT, and I thought you had already conceded that life didn't do that. Your verbal hedges ("runs close", "suggesting") show an unwillingness to face simple facts. As has been pointed out here many times, life produces a lot of entropy (heat, low-free-energy "molecular waste"). So no, evolution doesn't come anywhere close to building PP2s.Piotr
April 6, 2015
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phoenix, Your challenge is loaded and ill advised. First "evolutuion" is far too broad a term. For instance, minor variations of populations are observed, are not an issue for anyone and generally happen by loss of information/breaking of something. Where, macroevolution by design is possible and is a significant view. Second, I have made it quite plain that -- and, why -- blind needle in haystack search process is not a credible mechanism for the origin of FSCO/I involved in body plan level origin, starting with OOL but involving the whole proposed branching tree of life. This is tied to the statistical underpinnings that are inextricably connected to 2LOT for 100+ years now. In particular, the constructive configurational work involved for FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits description length would exhaust the blind watchmaker needle in haystack resources of the sol system at low end, observed cosmos at high end. Where, by virtue of Wicken wiring diagram required config of many parts to achieve specific function, FSCO/I comes in deeply isolated zones in config spaces that are literally at or beyond astronomical scale. Under say evolution by design (cf Wallace in The World of Life -- co-founder of Evolutionary Theory -- and other more current sources) the energy, mass and information flows relevantly coupled to energy converters and constructors will have no problem with 2LOT. Similar, to Maxwell's Demon. But, in absence of such constructors, converters, prescriptive information and relevant information and mass flows, the hoped for blanket substitution of blind chance and blind mechanical necessity at molecular level skirts being a perpetuum mobile of the second kind. Which is precisely what -- on good statistical mechanical grounds, 2LOT effectively rules out. To insist on the efficacy of such in the teeth of that pattern of analysis, requires production of empirical examples. Therefore, let us ask: 1: Where is the observed case of blind watchmaker OOL or major components of such beyond the FSCO/I threshold in reasonable pre-life circumstances such as a Darwin pond, a deep undersea vent, comet core etc? ______________ ANS: NIL. 2: Where is the observed case of blind watchmaker origin of a major body plan or major components of such beyond the FSCO/I threshold? _________________ ANS: NIL So, there is no basis for treating blind watchmaker OOL or origin of body plans as though it were a fact to be accounted for by pointing to irrelevant energy or mass flows as though they would "compensate." In short, there is no good empirical or analytical reason to think that just because the earth is an open system, etc., that the sort of irrelevant flows being appealed to have led to blind watchmaker OOL and/or equally blind origin of body plans. The evidence we do have in hand points instead to such skirting with being a hoped for perpetuum mobile of the 2nd kind. Now, I don't doubt that you will try further rhetorical demands and the like, while insistently ignoring the reasoning and actual empirical evidence on the table. To save onlookers' time and a silly set of circles of repetition, I simply say: until you oprovide clear evidence of blind watchmaker thesis origin of life and/or of blind watchmaker thesis origin of body plans, there is no case of empirical fact to be answered to. When you can provide such actual observations that blind watchmaker processes are causally adequate to the claimed effect -- vera causa -- you are simply begging the question. Produce the actually observed facts, then you have something to argue. Meanwhile, every comment you make further illustrates how FSCO/I is routinely produced by intelligently directed, information-rich configuration. All, consistent with 2LOT. KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2015
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phoenix
improbable things happen all the time
Provide an example with probability 10^-(1.8 x 10^22), as your evolution.
Last, niwrad seems to believe that the second law forbids the spontaneous production of “organization”, which if true would mean that the second law is violated every time a tree takes disorganized substances and forms them into a nice, organized tree branch.
Your "gem" of statement shows clearly that you understand nothing of the topic. Oh my and I complain about Zachriel... "A tree takes disorganized substances and forms them into a nice, organized tree branch" only because an intelligence has carefully designed a seed that contains the entire potentiality to form a tree. There is exactly zero "production of organization" ex novo in a growing tree. Its development is perfectly frontloaded just from the beginning in the potentiality of the seed, as the behaviour of a computer program is just in potency in its source code.
He also doubts the compensation argument. He may wish to consult kairosfocus, who now concedes its validity.
You don't understand kairosfocus (no surprise given what I said above).
Someone on the ID side may wish to take niwrad aside and explain that living organisms do not violate the second law.
Again a gem, please give me back Zachriel... It has been said countless times by me and ALL other IDers that "living organisms do NOT violate the second law." It is their alleged supposed spontaneous generation by natural forces that WOULD violate the 2nd_law_SM. Do you understand the difference between the arise of a living organism from molecules and a constructed finished organism that is alive and well? The former is "creation" of a system from matter, the latter is "operation" or "functioning" of the complete system already created.niwrad
April 6, 2015
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Phoenix: Box has backed off and admitted that materialists can coherently refer to macroscopic objects like organisms, lakes, rocks and toilets.
No, he has not. Allow me to explain: Letters derive their meaning from a word. Words derive their meaning from a sentence. A sentence derives its meaning from yet a larger context. Notice the top-down flow of meaning. Things need context in order to have function and meaning. In isolation – without context – things have neither function nor meaning. There is no such thing as a “car key” in a universe where cars don’t exist. There is no such thing as an “organ” in a universe where organisms don’t exist. Therefore, in a universe where, according to materialism, only particles in motion exist one cannot speak coherently of things of meaning and function. Function and meaning are only *real* insofar as contexts are *real*. Under materialism an organism is not real. Like everything else under materialism an organism is nothing over and above particles in motion. An organism reduces to particles in motion. An organism has no existence in and of itself and has no causal powers. If an organism would have causal powers we would be speaking of top-down causal powers, however this is unacceptable under materialism where all causes flow from the bottom to the top. IOW an organism is not real. What’s real – according to the materialist – is particles in motion and nothing else. Therefore, an organism is no *real* context under materialism. It follows that speaking of function and meaning with regard to an “organism” has no basis in reality for a materialist and is INCOHERENT.Box
April 6, 2015
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As for Sewell, these comments explain why his arguments are ridiculous: Why the compensation argument is inseparable from the second law Sewell's biggest mistake regarding "X-entropies" The simple reason for that mistakephoenix
April 5, 2015
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KF, If you weren't afraid, you would answer the question:
Do you believe that evolution and/or OOL violate the second law? Straight answer, please.
phoenix
April 5, 2015
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Meanwhile, fifthmonarchyman is confusing Trinitarian theology with the ontology of toilets. Upright Biped, as usual, is trying to change the subject to biosemiosis. And Joe and Andre are hanging out on the periphery, hoping the big kids will notice them.phoenix
April 5, 2015
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phoenix: I have actually laid out answers above (e.g. 16), which come from the linked. I have done so for years, which is not exactly an expression of fear . . . your projections bespeak a failure to deal with the merits. Again . . . and it seems to be over and over, I simply point out that 2LOT is rooted in a micro-picture and associated statistics, onward tied to information; which is decisive. The origin of FSCO/I rich systems requires a body of constructive work, requiring relevant mass, energy and information flows coupled to energy converters and constructors, in relevant ways. Irrelevant flows cannot credibly compensate, and to expect diffusion or similar forces to by happenstance carry out large bodies of constructive work is a non-starter. Where, the integrated von Neumann self replication facility involved in cell based life is a further case of FSCO/I. The intelligent origin of FSCO/I shows no signs of 2d law violations, but the attempt to get complex organisation out of lucky noise runs perilously close to suggesting a perpetuum mobile of the 2nd kind. And if you do not understand what such is, you have no business in this exchange. KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2015
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Box has backed off and admitted that materialists can coherently refer to macroscopic objects like organisms, lakes, rocks and toilets. However -- believe it or not -- he's now claiming that organisms have a special power that allows their particles to defy the second law:
If an organism has no existence in and of itself – no causal powers in and of itself – why then don’t the particles, which constitute the organism, act in accordance to the 2nd law, as they do at the moment of death and thereafter? What force prevents the particles in motion from doing what comes natural?
This is nonsense, of course. Organisms don't violate the second law. Any local entropy decrease is compensated for by increases in the entropy of the surroundings, and this is just as true inside organisms as outside.phoenix
April 5, 2015
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kairosfocus, meanwhile, has dropped his ridiculous opposition to the compensation argument. However, he is afraid to state his position regarding evolution, OOL and the second law. phoenix:
KF, Do you believe that evolution and/or OOL violate the second law? Straight answer, please.
KF:
phoenix, 341: please, every comment I have ever made at UD links directly to an answer to your “cornering” attempt; just click on my handle.
Of course, clicking on KF's "handle" does not lead directly to an answer. KF may wish to consult his braver compatriots to learn how they mustered the courage to actually state their positions.phoenix
April 5, 2015
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OK, so where do things stand in this thread? Niwrad is still struggling to understand that improbable things happen all the time. He may wish to consult those arch-Darwinists Ewert, Marks, and Dembski, who write:
Low probability events are often claimed to not happen. But this is fallacious because low probability events take place all of the time.
He also doubts the compensation argument. He may wish to consult kairosfocus, who now concedes its validity. Last, niwrad seems to believe that the second law forbids the spontaneous production of "organization", which if true would mean that the second law is violated every time a tree takes disorganized substances and forms them into a nice, organized tree branch. Someone on the ID side may wish to take niwrad aside and explain that living organisms do not violate the second law.phoenix
April 5, 2015
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fifth:
I realize that given your worldview this is impossible. But for Trinitarian Christians it is our nonnegotiable core presupposition.
Yes, the Trinity is incoherent (in Christianese, it's a "mystery"). But unlike you, your fellow Christians at least try to limit the incoherence to God. They don't go around insisting that toilets are "ultimate", when a well-placed whack from a sledgehammer proves otherwise. As you like to say: Geeze.phoenix
April 5, 2015
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phoenix says, When you separate the tank from the bowl, you no longer have a toilet. I say geeze check it out http://home.howstuffworks.com/tankless-toilet.htm peacefifthmonarchyman
April 5, 2015
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Phoenix said, A whole and its parts cannot both be ultimate. I say, I realize that given your worldview this is impossible. But for Trinitarian Christians it is our nonnegotiable core presupposition. I would hope you could at least understand where the other side is coming from. If a whole and it's parts can not be equally ultimate the Trinity is impossible. For me to even entertain such a thought is unthinkable. The Christian's entire epistemological framework is based on the existence of the Triune God. A reality that you find to be incoherent. It's as if you demand I agree that God does not exist before we can even have a discussion. Now perhaps you see why these discussions are so difficult. We are simply talking past one another there is no shared point of reference. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 5, 2015
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fifth, Your position is incoherent. A whole and its parts cannot both be ultimate. Think about it. It's not rocket science. You obviously didn't get my toilet example, so let me try again. When you separate the tank from the bowl, you no longer have a toilet. Toilets are not ultimate.phoenix
April 5, 2015
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Phoenix said, But how would that be a problem for materialists and not for everyone else, anyway? I say, again Geez, My conversation with you is proof that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Is it any wonder these conversations often don't seem to go anywhere. Why don't you go back and look at my posts where I explain the difference between holding the "particle/field" to be the ultimate reality and my position which is that the one and the many are equally ultimate. Then ask yourself how holding that whole things to be real and ultimate is different than holding that whole things are merely the sum of their constituent parts. If that does not cause a light bulb to go off take some time and try thinking deeply about it and asking specific clarifying questions. If you still don't get it I don't think I can help you. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 5, 2015
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Moreover, as would be expected if General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics/Special Relativity (QED) were truly unified in the resurrection of Christ from death, the image on the shroud is found to be formed by a quantum process. The image was not formed by a ‘classical’ process:
Shroud Of Turin – Photographic Negative – 3D Quantum Hologram – The Lamb – video https://vimeo.com/122495080 The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271 “It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was “lifted cleanly” from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state.” Kevin Moran – optical engineer Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural – December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. “The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin,” they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: “This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date.” http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html The Center Of The Universe Is Life (i.e. is Jesus Christ)! – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://vimeo.com/34084462
Personally, considering the extreme difficulty that many brilliant minds have had in trying to reconcile Quantum Mechanics/Special relativity(QED), with Gravity, as the ‘Bohemian Gravity’ video I cited illustrated, I consider the preceding ‘quantum’ nuance on the Shroud of Turin to be a subtle, but powerful, evidence substantiating Christ’s primary claim as to being our Savior from sin, death, and hell: Verses and Music:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Natalie Grant: “Alive (MARY MAGDALENE)” – Official Lyric Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1GzOUnUN20
Of supplemental note: The 'agent causality' of Christians is vastly superior in explanatory power to the ‘it just happens’ blind causality of atheists:
A Professor’s Journey out of Nihilism: Why I am not an Atheist – University of Wyoming – J. Budziszewski Excerpt page12: “There were two great holes in the argument about the irrelevance of God. The first is that in order to attack free will, I supposed that I understood cause and effect; I supposed causation to be less mysterious than volition. If anything, it is the other way around. I can perceive a logical connection between premises and valid conclusions. I can perceive at least a rational connection between my willing to do something and my doing it. But between the apple and the earth, I can perceive no connection at all. Why does the apple fall? We don’t know. “But there is gravity,” you say. No, “gravity” is merely the name of the phenomenon, not its explanation. “But there are laws of gravity,” you say. No, the “laws” are not its explanation either; they are merely a more precise description of the thing to be explained, which remains as mysterious as before. For just this reason, philosophers of science are shy of the term “laws”; they prefer “lawlike regularities.” To call the equations of gravity “laws” and speak of the apple as “obeying” them is to speak as though, like the traffic laws, the “laws” of gravity are addressed to rational agents capable of conforming their wills to the command. This is cheating, because it makes mechanical causality (the more opaque of the two phenomena) seem like volition (the less). In my own way of thinking the cheating was even graver, because I attacked the less opaque in the name of the more. The other hole in my reasoning was cruder. If my imprisonment in a blind causality made my reasoning so unreliable that I couldn’t trust my beliefs, then by the same token I shouldn’t have trusted my beliefs about imprisonment in a blind causality. But in that case I had no business denying free will in the first place.” http://www.undergroundthomist.org/sites/default/files/WhyIAmNotAnAtheist.pdf BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: ,,,The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,, Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
Also of Note:
Higher Dimensional Special Relativity, Near Death Experiences, Biophotons, and the Quantum Soul https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XGuV7FWwaDag4T5glstQWjsQNtWHKw3T9qLF14fUHHo/edit
bornagain77
April 5, 2015
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A few notes on Jesus rising from the dead and entropy: Entropy is the primary reason our physical material bodies grow old and die:
Entropy Explains Aging, Genetic Determinism Explains Longevity, and Undefined Terminology Explains Misunderstanding Both - 2007 Excerpt: There is a huge body of knowledge supporting the belief that age changes are characterized by increasing entropy, which results in the random loss of molecular fidelity, and accumulates to slowly overwhelm maintenance systems [1–4].,,, http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030220
This following video brings the point personally home to us about the effects of genetic entropy:
Aging Process - 85 years in 40 seconds - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91Fwf_sMhk
The greatest source of entropy in the universe is found to be the singularity of black holes:
Evolution is a Fact, Just Like Gravity is a Fact! UhOh! – January 2010 Excerpt: The results of this paper suggest gravity arises as an entropic force, once space and time themselves have emerged. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-is-a-fact-just-like-gravity-is-a-fact-uhoh/ Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010 Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated. http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe
Whereas the greatest 'violation' of the second law is found to be the singularity of the creation of the universe:
The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: "The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the "source" of the Second Law (Entropy)." How special was the big bang? - Roger Penrose Excerpt: This now tells us how precise the Creator's aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123. (from the Emperor’s New Mind, Penrose, pp 339-345 - 1989)
More specifically, Special Relativity and General Relativity reveal two very different ‘qualities of eternity’ (as predicted in Christian Theism). In particular, the Black Holes of General Relativity are found to be associated with timeless eternities of destruction and disorder. And Special Relativity is found to be associated with a timeless eternity of creation and order, (i.e. the extreme 1 in 10^10^123 order we see at the creation event of the Big Bang).
Special Relativity, General Relativity, Heaven and Hell https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_4cQ7MXq8bLkoFLYW0kq3Xq-Hkc3c7r-gTk0DYJQFSg/edit
The destruction and disorder associated with Black Holes is particularly frightful and is captured in this following quote:
“Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476
Needless to say, the implications of this ‘eternity of destruction’ should be fairly disturbing for those of us who are of the ‘spiritually minded’ persuasion! In light of this dilemma that these two very different eternities present to us spiritually minded people, and the fact that Gravity is, in so far as we can tell, completely incompatible with Quantum Mechanics and Special Relativity (i.e. Quantum Electro-Dynamics),,,
A Capella Science – Bohemian Gravity! (The failure of string theory and M-theory) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rjbtsX7twc
,,in light of this ‘spiritual’ dilemma, it is interesting to point out a subtle nuance on the Shroud of Turin. Namely that Gravity (i.e. General Relativity) was overcome in the resurrection event of Christ:
Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. http://www.academicjournals.org/sre/PDF/pdf2012/30JulSpeIss/Antonacci.pdf A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 Turin shroud – (Particle Physicist explains event horizon) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHVUGK6UFK8
bornagain77
April 5, 2015
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Folks, it looks like the key issue is complex, functionally specific, organised configuration and what best accounts for it. I/l/o the statistical underpinnings inextricably linked to thermodynamics since Gibbs and Boltzmann et al, 100+ years past, mass and energy and information flows, energy converters and constructors. Thus, the question of prescriptive, organising info and its origin arises . . . with the linked issue that per the statistical underpinnings of 2LOT etc, blind needle in haystack search is maximally implausible as the cause of FSCO/I in islands of function in ultra-astronomically large configuration spaces. KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2015
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BA77,
I wonder, since materialists[*] hold that life and evolution are not contrary to the second law, do materialists also think that it was not contrary to the second law for Jesus to rise from the dead?
*as well as some ID proponents and even YECs, apparently. The entropy of a living body (could be) greater than that of a dead body, so I don't think resurrection would necessarily violate the 2nd law. It appears that someone suggested adding such a statement to the Conservapaedia article on the 2nd law, but got shot down. Happy Easter to you as well.daveS
April 5, 2015
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Alicia Renard:
Having skipped through this thread, I’m wondering, are people here claiming that processes such as chemosynthesis, photosynthesis and respiration violate the second law of thermodynamics?
No, as they all exist in an intelligently designed universe.Joe
April 5, 2015
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Evolution is almost guaranteed, given the existence of life.
No one is debating evolution. Perhaps you should grow up and get an education to learn what is being debated.Joe
April 5, 2015
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I wonder, since materialists hold that life and evolution are not contrary to the second law, do materialists also think that it was not contrary to the second law for Jesus to rise from the dead? "He Is Alive Death is defeated Sin has retreated From the power of the Son" "He Is Alive." - Third Day https://youtu.be/h4oqodNXzs0 Happy Easter, everyone!bornagain77
April 5, 2015
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They are organizations of matter. That they can be categorized doesn’t mean they cease to be organizations of matter.
And materialism cannot explain such organizations of matter.Joe
April 5, 2015
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