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HeKS continues to suggest a way forward on the KS “bomb” argument

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Last week, one of my comments relating to the KS “bomb” argument was made the subject of an OP, which can be found here.

In that comment, I had offered a few preliminary thoughts on Keith’s argument (originally found here, and summarized by him here) and asked a few questions to better understand the assumptions informing his argument. Unfortunately, the issues raised in my OP comment, as far I can tell, were never actually addressed. Instead, the ‘responses’ in the ensuing conversation revolved almost entirely around what the participating ID proponents considered obviously false analogies, which invoked “Planetary Angels”, “Rain Fairies”, “Salt Leprechauns”, and “Toilet Whales”.

Regarding these analogies, Keith, Zachriel, and other ID opponents, seemed to be arguing as though ID claims a designing agent is necessary to explain the shape/pattern of the ‘Objective Nested Hierarchy’ (ONH) into which living organisms are claimed to fall, when the production of  an ONH can be explained by a natural, unguided process of branching descent.  Thus, they claimed, there is no difference between the ID position and one that claims planets are moving in elliptical orbits because angels are choosing to push them around in such orbits, or one that claims salt falls from a salt shaker into a pile on the table because the falling salt is being guided by invisible leprechauns who like making salt piles. The idea here is that in each case we have some superfluous explanatory entity being posited to directly guide some process that looks exactly like it is not being guided, does not need to be guided, and is explained perfectly well by law-based processes.

During the course of the thread it was pointed out to them innumerable times that, even granting the existence of an ONH for life, ID does not and would not cite the shape or production of such an ONH as being an example of something that requires an explanation by reference to an intelligent cause. Rather, in identifying the need for an intelligent cause to explain certain aspects of biology, ID points to the evident infusion of significant amounts of biological information into the world of life, as well as the novel introduction of complex, functionally-specified biological systems and molecular machines. In other words, for its evidence, ID points to aspects of life that do not seem obviously explicable by reference to purely natural processes, whether stochastic or law-based, but that do contain hallmarks that we habitually and uniquely associate with conscious, intelligent, intentional activity. In yet other words, the previously mentioned analogies to “Planetary Angels” and “Salt Leprechauns” are horribly and obviously misguided and entirely off the mark.

Unfortunately, the distinction never seemed to get through to them. And even more unfortunately, the thread was eventually derailed and shut down while a number of conversations were still in progress. Aspects of the discussion, however, continued here.

In that new thread, the Rain Fairies, the Salt Leprechauns, and their most recent common ancestor, the Plantary Angels, have again reared their head, being invoked in response to the objection from ID proponents to the description of microevolution as being “unguided”. The point of the ID proponents in this case relates quite closely to one of the claims in Keith’s so-called “bomb” argument, with which I myself took issue in the previously mentioned OP. In Keith’s summary of his argument, he says that even “the most rabid IDer” admits that “unguided evolution” exists, with the ultimate intention of extrapolating what ID proponents admit happens into what they say does not happen.

Now, when Keith refers to “unguided evolution” here, he is referring to the relatively minor microevolutionary changes that take place within a population, but on the view of ID proponents, these are not the kind of phenomena that could, even in principle, be extrapolated to account for the macroevolutionary innovations that would be necessary to account for the full content of the alleged ONH “Tree of Life”. And in taking issue with the characterization of microevolution as “unguided”, the ID proponent is taking issue with the fact that a phrase that might be uncontroversially applied to a subset of these phenomena is, within the context of Keith’s argument, being over-generalized in a way that implicitly suggests an acceptance by ID proponents of propositions they do not actually accept, and so is a case of illegitimately stealing ground en route to the argument’s conclusion.

In addition to my comments in the original OP, I expanded on them somewhat in a recent comment, which I’ll duplicate here to fill out the remainder of this post and hopefully spur further discussion.

From here:

Now, when it comes to this business of proving that microevolution is unguided, I think there needs to be an understanding of what it would even mean to suggest that it is “guided”. I’m reasonably certain that the majority of people who would dispute claims that microevolution is unguided do not mean that a designer is actively, in the moment, effecting a specific microevolutionary change. Nor would they dispute that random mutations happen. Rather, they would likely dispute that all mutations are random. And they would also likely argue (as I did in the previous thread) that the constrained allowance for – and even rapid increased initiation of – mutations and general genetic and epigenetic changes are a purposeful aspect of the design of organisms to allow for diversification and adaptation (which is sometimes very rapid). If the random variation or shuffling is too large, however, it kills the organism, makes it sterile, or at the very least reduces its reproductive potential, decreasing the chances that the significant defect will be passed on or largely affect subsequent generations of a population.

In other words, the argument is not that random mutations allowing microevolution look unguided but are actually being directly manipulated by some designer. Rather, the argument is that 1) the RM/NS mechanism is a constrained feature of organismal design, and that the Neo-Darwinists are looking at a design feature of a system that makes use of randomization and illegitimately extrapolating it to explain the entire system itself; and 2) that not all mutations/changes are random at all, but some are internally directed in a purposeful manner for the benefit of the organism.

So, it seems to me that, from an ID perspective, saying something like, ‘even IDists admit unguided evolution exists’, is either A) a case of making a trivial claim that cannot be legitimately extrapolated from the kinds of microevolutionary changes that are seen (overwhelmingly degrading genetic information and/or narrowing genetic variability; breaking or blunting existing biological function for a net fitness gain) to the kinds of macroevolutionary innovations that are theorized (the introduction of complex, functionally-specified systems and molecular machines), or B) a case of making an unwarranted and unsubstantiated claim that the system that allows for and makes use of the RM/NS mechanism for the benefit and diversification of the organism does so by fluke, in a way that is fully unconstrained, and is itself undesigned; or C) both.

Of course, as I’ve said numerous times before, I think this is only one of many issues with Keith’s argument, but it has become quite clear that it is difficult to get even just one criticism seriously addressed in a comment thread, so it would likely be useless to draw in any others at this point. I’m hoping that the nonsensical false analogies about Rain Fairies and Planetary Angels can be left to the side to allow for some kind of substantive discussion of the issues, but I’ve been given little reason to suspect that my hope is grounded.

 

Comments
HeKS, You'd have a much better chance of getting responses to all your points if you weren't such a windbag. Seriously, take a look at the length of this comment. That isn't unusual for you. This is what usually happens: 1. I start responding to one of your epic comments. 2. Out of pity for the readers, I respond to just two or three points and then end the comment. 3. I start working on another reply to you, but then you or someone else responds to my initial reply, I end up responding back, and a discussion begins. 4. I get caught up in the new discussion, carrying on an actual conversation, and I don't get back to your original comment. 5. Some time later you complain that I'm ignoring your points, when you could simply bring them up again. It would really help the discussion if you'd limit your focus to one or a few points at a time and curb your logorrheic tendencies. We may be on different sides of the debate, but I would hope that we could at least agree that we don't want to bore the readers to death if we can help it. If you insist on these lengthy treatises, then be prepared to repeat a point if you don't get an answer the first time. Don't expect me to be constantly surveying the thread to make sure I've answered every single point buried amidst your effluvia. But better still, aim for concision. You can always clarify or add more detail later, if needed. You don't have to lay it all out in every single comment. Other people seem to get it. Their comments are fairly short and to the point. Why can't you do that?keith s
December 6, 2014
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vividbleau, Actually, the reason I'm not deleting KF's comments is because the main off-topic ones happened before I asked him to keep things more on-topic and anything he has has said afterwards has been brief and largely relevant, like a few links to other posts that deal with issues relevant to Keith's argument, and not simply a clear attempt to drag the discussion completely off course into a discussion of personal beliefs and motives. On the other hand, feel free to go back and look at how much it took before I actually deleted one of Pachyaena's comments, and how many warnings I gave that he ignored, only to come back doing the same thing even more forcefully. If Pachyaena wants to pretend that he and KF have interacted with this thread in the same manner, that's his business, but in terms of my moderation choices, the reasons for them are quite clear from the record. It seems Pachyaena wants the numerous warnings I gave to him (which followed simple requests) to be counted towards KF and everyone else, so that at the first sign of the slightest comment from anyone not directly geared to the thread topic their comment should immediately be deleted. Again, it's quite clear I was never targeting such things. Pachyaena's comments were of a different sort and no number of requests and then warnings would get him to change his actions in this thread. Since I deleted one of his comments he has started to mingle in comments slightly relevant to the thread in some way amidst his insults and so I have not deleted them. However, even without the threat of deletion I would still point him to my comment #867HeKS
December 6, 2014
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Heks You should really peruse the thread Keith refers to in 908. You were not around then. Anyway you will see as it relates to Keith the tactics are the same then the same now. I expect any day now Keith will pull the ripcord and get himself banned. Vividvividbleau
December 5, 2014
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vividbleau barked: "What’s pitiful is this cheap shot." And: "Wow! Hard to believe you are this clueless. Of course he announced it and you took it as an opportunity to fire out a pitifully cheap shot." How is telling the truth a pitifully cheap shot? Phinehas said: "Why is it pitiful for HeKS to delete posts that have nothing whatsoever to do with either the OP or your argument (as is both his right and his responsibility as a moderator)?" Well, when HeKS doesn't apply the same standard to his own and other IDers' comments, that's "pitiful" (actually I'm thinking of some stronger words).Pachyaena
December 5, 2014
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Pachy
Shouldn't HeKS be deleting your comments?
People actually have other things to do with their lives. Maybe he is out on a date? Maybe he is sleeping? Do you expect him to monitor every post 24 7? Sheesh. LOL I guess he is not out on a date!! Vividvividbleau
December 5, 2014
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Let's Take a Trip Down Memory Lane Keith is once again asking in #890 why he can't legitimately extrapolate microevolution to macroevolution and what the barriers are and claiming nobody ever answers him. One would think Keith is therefore interested in discussing this issue, but the facts suggest otherwise. I started trying to address this with him in my first comments to him which were ultimately headlined in the previous OP. The following is a record of what happened over the course of the comment thread to that OP, starting with my original OP comments relevant to the issue. From the previous OP:
Second, your argument assumes that this “unguided evolution”, if it exists, is of a sort that it could, at least in principle, offer some kind of possible explanation for the macroevolutionary changes that would be necessary to produce an objective nested hierarchy naturalistically, even if it would require a large degree of extrapolation. The problem is that the type of “unguided evolution” we observe is not one that is observed to add novel functional information to the genome. It slightly alters and degrades genetic information, and it breaks existing functions or sometimes fixes functions that had previously been broken by simple point mutations, but we do not see it adding brand new complex (in the sense of “many well-matched parts”) functionality that didn’t exist before. So the type of “unguided evolution” that “even the most rabid IDer/YEC” observes is not of the kind that they would have any reason to think can offer, even in principle, a possible explanation for the macroevolutionary changes needed to produce an ONH naturalistically at any point that the ONH requires a significant increase in functional genetic information. Wherever that would be necessary, any appeal to the known existence of “unguided evolution” as a basic feature of reality would not even simply be an extreme unwarranted extrapolation of the available evidence, but would actually be the misleading invocation of a process that does pretty much exactly the opposite of what we observe “unguided evolution” doing. So, if by your #3 you mean something like this: We know that there exists an unguided natural mechanism of a sort that might, at least in principle, be able to explain the significant increases in functional genetic information at particular nodes of the supposed ONH of life. Then I have to say, no, we don’t know of any such thing.
------------ Keith's response to this portion of the OP:
We know that unguided evolution produces microevolutionary ONHs, and IDers have been unable to find evidence of any barriers that could prevent microevolution from accumulating to become macroevolution.
------------ My response to Keith:
Keith, your response is so non-responsive that it’s hard to figure out what to say about it, so I guess I’ll start by drawing back in my excised points from the OP Your quote from me:
HeKS: Second, your argument assumes that this “unguided evolution”, if it exists, is of a sort that it could, at least in principle, offer some kind of possible explanation for the macroevolutionary changes that would be necessary to produce an objective nested hierarchy naturalistically, even if it would require a large degree of extrapolation.
My original point:
Second, your argument assumes that this “unguided evolution”, if it exists, is of a sort that it could, at least in principle, offer some kind of possible explanation for the macroevolutionary changes that would be necessary to produce an objective nested hierarchy naturalistically, even if it would require a large degree of extrapolation. The problem is that the type of “unguided evolution” we observe is not one that is observed to add novel functional information to the genome. It slightly alters and degrades genetic information, and it breaks existing functions or sometimes fixes functions that had previously been broken by simple point mutations, but we do not see it adding brand new complex (in the sense of “many well-matched parts”) functionality that didn’t exist before. So the type of “unguided evolution” that “even the most rabid IDer/YEC” observes is not of the kind that they would have any reason to think can offer, even in principle, a possible explanation for the macroevolutionary changes needed to produce an ONH naturalistically at any point that the ONH requires a significant increase in functional genetic information. Wherever that would be necessary, any appeal to the known existence of “unguided evolution” as a basic feature of reality would not even simply be an extreme unwarranted extrapolation of the available evidence, but would actually be the misleading invocation of a process that does pretty much exactly the opposite of what we observe “unguided evolution” doing.
You said:
If you believe that mutations are random but are retained or eliminated by selection and drift, then we are in agreement. That’s the kind of unguided evolution I am talking about.
Well, some mutations seem to happen at random. That doesn’t mean that mutations are random across the board. Some seem internally directed to respond to environmental conditions. And what are we supposed to make of it when external pressures are found to increase mutation rates and thereby give a population a better chance at survival under harsh conditions through minor changes in genes and gene regulation? A seemingly programmed response that looks designed to maximize attempts at internal solutions to external problems, though ones that are seemingly constrained within definite boundaries, is not something that argues for a lack of intelligent design governing microevolutionary processes. Furthermore, fitness increases, and morphological changes in general, that are fixed by natural selection and drift result from blunting or breaking existing biological function and genetic information. We do not observe mutations adding up to produce novel complex functionality; not even when we’re the ones instigating the mutations through extensive mutagenesis experiments. Generally, the best we can hope for is that some regulatory switch will get thrown to allow an organism to do in one environment or context something that it already does in another environment or context. And where we observe microevolution producing ONH’s through branching descent, we observe it doing so through loss of genetic information, which brings me back to another comment from the OP:
Of course, if you want to say that the ONH results from a gradual and unguided degrading of genetic information, that could work, at least to a certain point, and could be viewed as a reasonable extrapolation of the “unguided evolution” we observe. Of course, this raises the question of where the high information-content of the ancestor genome came from in the first place and we would have to account for the places in the hierarchy where a significant increase or change in functional information seems to have arisen.
So, when you say that ID proponents admit that “unguided evolution” exists, and then assert there is some need for the ID proponent to identify a barrier to prevent these from adding up to the macroevolutionary changes in the history of life, you are completely misrepresenting what ID proponents admit and getting far ahead of yourself. If necessary, we can get to discussing barriers to the formation of new body plans and body plan elements and organs and tissues, etc., but I don’t see that your argument really requires that at this point for the simple reason that you are arguing based on the claimed reasonableness of the large-scale extrapolation of microevolutionary change to macroevolutionary change, but extrapolation requires some kind of trajectory, and when we perform a larg-scale extrapolation of the trajectory of the microevolution we actually observe, a very obvious, experimentally-verified barrier presents itself: complete breakdown of biological function resulting in sterility and/or death.
------------ Keith's response? He talked about Rain Fairies, isolated the tiny portion of my comment that wasn't a discussion of initial barriers to his extrapolation, and then said the onus is on us to provide the barriers, ignoring that I had already started to provide some. ------------ My response to Keith:
Ah, now I see why you always think you win arguments: You just ignore what people say, misrepresent their arguments and claims, argue against that, then claim victory. Since I did not make the argument you decided to respond to and you did not respond to anything I actually said, is this the point where I do a little victory dance? I think I’ll forego that and just wait for you to actually address what I’ve said, though I am starting to get a little bored.
------------- Keith's response?
I’ve shown that the evidence is trillions to one against the hypothesis that there are barriers to microevolution that prevent it from accumulating into macroevolution.
In other words, Keith was completely non-responsive and refused to engage in any discussion of potential barriers because the existence of the ONH is overwhelming proof that no barriers exist ... so why even talk about it? Then, after I pointed out several times that he was ignoring my points and/or simply quoting snippets of them which he was then misrepresenting, he told me to pick just one of his arguments so we could discuss that. I responded by telling him to pick one of my arguments from the OP, since I had already picked one (opening the discussion on barriers to microevolution) but that he had responded by misrepresenting a tiny portion of my comment and then invoking Rain Fairies again. Which one of my arguments from the OP did he choose to discuss? None. He picked his Rain Fairy argument again and wanted to talk about that. I humored him, explained the problem with it in detail, and his most substantive comment in reply was:
But there is no evidence that the actual ONH is out of unguided evolution’s reach. Do you have any to offer?
In other words, after ignoring everything I initially said on the matter of barriers to macroevolution, he changed the subject to his Rain Fairy argument. But when I responded to his Rain Fairy argument he simply invoked the claim that there are no barriers to macroevolution, pretending I'd never said anything on the subject. ------------- My response:
Keith, Talking to you is like talking to a wall. You just continue to repeat assertions that I’ve addressed and to ignore questions I’ve asked about them. I’ve also already given you obvious reasons why your extrapolations of microevolution to the macroevolutionary development of complex novel systems doesn’t even get off the ground in light of the observational evidence. I’ve also addressed your claim that ID proponents admit “unguided evolution” exists and the fact that you completely misrepresent us on this and that what we actually admit doesn’t amount to a mechanism that could, even in principle, explain the introduction of novel biological systems. You have not provided a remotely substantive response to anything. You’ve only repeated nonsense and false analogies. I’ve given you plenty of opportunity to start demonstrating that there is any merit to your argument at all. You’ve chosen to ignore everything and just repeat a mantra about Rain Fairies. Evidently I have been wasting my time trying to have a substantive discussion with you.
------------- Keith's response? He claimed he had responded to my comment point-by-point and said:
Run away if you like, but be aware of how that makes you look, particularly after all your trash talk about how “utterly confused” and “obviously wrong” my argument is. You bit off more than you could chew, didn’t you?
What a rare gift he has for posturing. -------------- My response:
Bit off more than I could chew? More like ordered a steak and spent hours being asked to snack on crackers. Your point-by-point “response” consists of repeating disputed assertions without actually defending any of them or addressing any of my points or answering any of my questions. Apparently you think I’m just supposed to sit here and watch you ramble through your false analogies over and over again.
--------------- Keith's response:
No, what you’re “supposed” to do is to respond to my point-by-point rebuttal of your comment. It’s called “debate”.
--------------- My response to Keith: I started with this...
Keith, Debate requires good-faith participation by people on both sides, Keith. I haven’t seen that from you. You’ve ignored every issue I’ve raised and every question I’ve asked, then you decided the only thing you wanted to discuss was Rain Fairies, and when I humored you and addressed them you responded without offering any substantive interaction with my points. You just repeated your initial assertions without addressing anything I’ve said about them. And now that you’ve done that, I’m apparently just supposed to repeat myself yet again.
And then I responded to his point-by-point non-rebuttal repetition of his slogans. --------------- Keith's response: He claimed I used a lot of words, but not much substance, and then made the silly claim that the reason he wanted to discuss just one issue was so that I would be forced to respond to his arguments rather than hiding behind a smokescreen. ---------------- My response:
For goodness sake. Of course there wasn’t much substance in that comment. That was the whole point. You complained that I hadn’t responded to your point-for-point “response” and I was pointing out there was nothing of any substance in it for me to respond to. We’re at a place where I just have to point out to you over and over, paragraph after paragraph, that you’re either missing, ignoring or misrepresenting what I’ve said and simply repeating your own assertions without defending them or answering any questions about them. You’re giving me nothing of any substance to respond to, complaining that I don’t respond to your insubstantial nonsense and misrepresentations, and then, when I do, complaining that the result is not substantive … as though it could be.
And
I started with a substantive discussion and you just pretended like I hadn’t said anything. And now, apparently, the reason you’ve either ignored or misrepresented virtually everything I’ve said from square one, refused to answer every question I’ve asked, and have simply repeated your assertions over and over as though they’ve never been challenged is so that you could force me to deal substantively with … what exactly? Your tid-bit misrepresentations? Your unsubstantiated assertions that you refuse to either justify or defend? And this approach that you opened with, right from the start, was apparently triggered by an insubstantial comment from me just a short while ago, which was intentionally insubstantial to point out that you weren’t saying anything of substance for me to respond to. Time travel must be cool.
I then proceeded to address all his points. --------------- Keith's response:
Please — less whining and more substance. Readers don’t care how aggrieved you feel (or pretend to feel). They want to know whether you can refute my argument.
Then he choose one tiny point from my comment to pick out and comment on. --------------- At this point Phinehas astutely observed about Keith's "less whining and more substance" comment:
keiths acts as though HeKS hasn’t already responded to this exact same charge from keiths.... Note that keiths doesn’t engage HeKS’ response. He doesn’t present any sort of counter-argument. In fact, he doesn’t even deny it. He simply acts as though it never happened and recycles the accusation.
And regarding Keith's claim that readers just want to know if I can refute his argument, Phinehas even more astutely observed:
What argument?! When HeKS addressed your argument in the OP, you never responded to his points. Instead, you insisted he limit himself to a specific point. And that he only respond in a specific way. So he went ahead and dismantled your Rain Fairy tripe anyway. And you’ve been unresponsive. Now you are accusing him of lacking substance in pointing out your unresponsivenss. What exactly is he supposed to be arguing against at this point?
That represented an entire thread of 600+ comments trying to have a substantive discussion with Keith about his argument and to open the discussion of barriers to macroevolution in the OP and then several times in the comments. Then we come to the current OP, where I said the following on the subject:
In Keith’s summary of his argument, he says that even “the most rabid IDer” admits that “unguided evolution” exists, with the ultimate intention of extrapolating what ID proponents admit happens into what they say does not happen. Now, when Keith refers to “unguided evolution” here, he is referring to the relatively minor microevolutionary changes that take place within a population, but on the view of ID proponents, these are not the kind of phenomena that could, even in principle, be extrapolated to account for the macroevolutionary innovations that would be necessary to account for the full content of the alleged ONH “Tree of Life”. And in taking issue with the characterization of microevolution as “unguided”, the ID proponent is taking issue with the fact that a phrase that might be uncontroversially applied to a subset of these phenomena is, within the context of Keith’s argument, being over-generalized in a way that implicitly suggests an acceptance by ID proponents of propositions they do not actually accept, and so is a case of illegitimately stealing ground en route to the argument’s conclusion. In addition to my comments in the original OP, I expanded on them somewhat in a recent comment, which I’ll duplicate here to fill out the remainder of this post and hopefully spur further discussion. From here:
Now, when it comes to this business of proving that microevolution is unguided, I think there needs to be an understanding of what it would even mean to suggest that it is “guided”. I’m reasonably certain that the majority of people who would dispute claims that microevolution is unguided do not mean that a designer is actively, in the moment, effecting a specific microevolutionary change. Nor would they dispute that random mutations happen. Rather, they would likely dispute that all mutations are random. And they would also likely argue (as I did in the previous thread) that the constrained allowance for – and even rapid increased initiation of – mutations and general genetic and epigenetic changes are a purposeful aspect of the design of organisms to allow for diversification and adaptation (which is sometimes very rapid). If the random variation or shuffling is too large, however, it kills the organism, makes it sterile, or at the very least reduces its reproductive potential, decreasing the chances that the significant defect will be passed on or largely affect subsequent generations of a population. In other words, the argument is not that random mutations allowing microevolution look unguided but are actually being directly manipulated by some designer. Rather, the argument is that 1) the RM/NS mechanism is a constrained feature of organismal design, and that the Neo-Darwinists are looking at a design feature of a system that makes use of randomization and illegitimately extrapolating it to explain the entire system itself; and 2) that not all mutations/changes are random at all, but some are internally directed in a purposeful manner for the benefit of the organism. So, it seems to me that, from an ID perspective, saying something like, ‘even IDists admit unguided evolution exists’, is either A) a case of making a trivial claim that cannot be legitimately extrapolated from the kinds of microevolutionary changes that are seen (overwhelmingly degrading genetic information and/or narrowing genetic variability; breaking or blunting existing biological function for a net fitness gain) to the kinds of macroevolutionary innovations that are theorized (the introduction of complex, functionally-specified systems and molecular machines), or B) a case of making an unwarranted and unsubstantiated claim that the system that allows for and makes use of the RM/NS mechanism for the benefit and diversification of the organism does so by fluke, in a way that is fully unconstrained, and is itself undesigned; or C) both.
---------------- About a hundred or so comments ago I directed Keith to the current OP again on the question of whether we have reason to think the type of "unguided evolution" he invokes actually exists, which included my comments about the initial barriers to microevolutionary changes accreting into macroevolutionary ones. He responded by telling me that he had already responded to my arguments by responding to someone else's arguments. When I pointed out to him that the response he was referring to had no relation to my arguments at all, did he go and address my comments in the OP? Nope. He responded by asking me: "Do you think microevolution is guided? Did the Designer create this year’s mutant flu viruses?" Except that I'd already described in detail in the OP exactly what I thought about the issue of whether or not microevolution is guided and what that would even mean and what the implications were. But Keith didn't want to bother dealing with any of that. He just wanted it all boiled down to a simple Yes or No answer (Are you still beating your wife?) Then, of course, everything turned back to the ONH pattern, so I explained that in the field of human design most obviously relevant to life (software development), ONHs are incredibly common, being routinely produced as the result of implementing best-practice design patterns, and so clearly are not nearly so rare in human design as he thought (and made sure to repeatedly invoke) when we consider circumstances that are actually relevant. His response was to claim I was dishonestly trying to prop up ID by not giving equal weight to the fact that human designs like balls and chairs don't happen to fall into ONHs. But now Keith is saying in 890:
I keep asking IDers for evidence of a barrier that prevents microevolution from accumulating to become macroevolution, but they never provide one. The response I usually get is “you need to provide a step-by-step account of how X evolved”, which is absurd, since IDers themselves can’t meet the equivalent requirement. That is, they can’t provide a step-by-step account of how X was designed and implemented. .... Okay, then what is the barrier and what is your evidence for it? Be specific.
And yet he has completely ignored even the initial barriers I discussed in the current OP, the previous OP, comments in the previous thread, and in comments prior to the creation of the previous OP. There are even more problematic barriers than the ones I've already raised, but if he can't even interact with these basic ones and give a plausible reason for why his wild extrapolation isn't severely undermined by them (a reason that doesn't simply consist of "because the ONH exists"), there isn't even any need to draw in the more difficult issues Also, even though I personally have not asked that he provide a step-by-step account of how X evolved, his response that such a request "is absurd, since IDers themselves can’t meet the equivalent requirement" is itself rather weak, since the whole point of asking for a viable step-by-step evolutionary path (not even necessarily the "correct" one) is to demonstrate that a possible evolutionary path exists at all, since evolution has to advance in a stepwise fashion without losing fitness or function. Intelligent Design is not a mindless mechanism, so it can organize multiple parts in a coherent functional whole without having to worry about fitness problems or non-functional states during intermediate steps on the way to the whole. In any case, if Keith wants to actually discuss barriers to the extrapolation from observed microevolutionary processes to unobserved macroevolutionary ones, perhaps he could start by finally addressing my initial comments on this issue which have been gathered together here for his convenience, amidst the record of his choice to completely ignore them and change the subject every time they came up.HeKS
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kairosfocus said: "I notice people speaking dismissively on situations they know nothing about; only that they wish to be contemptuously dismissive. That speaks volumes, and not to their benefit." Actually, Gordon, it speaks volumes, and not to your benefit, that you and your 'fellow traveler ilk' are contemptuously dismissive of evolution and evolutionary theory and scientific methodology even though you obviously know nothing about them. It also speaks volumes, and not to your benefit, that you're contemptuously dismissive of legitimate scientists, and of the many refutations of your claims, and of the fact that your drumbeat repetition of your fallacious talking points does not make them true. "But, obviously there must be zero concessions regarding FSCO/I." Why should there be any concessions to your dishonest, religious belief based woo? "FSCO/I" is just your conjured up thingamajig that you can't verify and can't connect to your imagined designer-creator-god in any way, shape, or form. Let's see you define "FSCO/I" in a way that actually makes sense, demonstrate that it is actually in organisms (not just in a description of organisms or their parts), calculate/measure it in whole organisms* (Hi Box), and verifiably connect said "FSCO/I" to your imagined designer-creator-god, including how, when, where, and why. After all, according to your 'fellow traveler ilk' Joe: "If someone is making a claim it is up to them to substantiate it.", and: "Bald claims are meaningless to science." *How about a fish, a bird, a frog, a whale, a clam, a sponge, a spider, an insect, an oak tree, a kelp, a coconut palm, a mushroom, a lichen, a foraminiferan, a chimpanzee, and a human, for a start? "trillions of cases in point", eh? Well then, you shouldn't have any trouble verifying and demonstrating that "FSCO/I" is actually in the things listed above and a whole bunch more, and that you can calculate/measure it and verifiably connect it to your imagined designer-creator-god. "What is critical then is the origin of FSCO/I, from OOL to origin of body plans and up to us." Whoa there, what is "critical" is that you haven't shown that "FSCO/I" is anything other than a fallacious talking point. "And, it remains the case..." Nope. "...that the only empirically warranted,..." Empirically warranted? Surely you jest. For example, you IDers strongly claim that 'historical' science is worthless and that only 'observational' science is credible (except of course when you think it's convenient to claim otherwise). You also claim that "FSCO/I" originated when life was first designed-created. Were you there at the "origin" of "FSCO/I"? Did you observe the "origin" of "FSCO/I" and did you observe your imagined designer-creator-god designing and creating "FSCO/I"? "...sparse needle in haystack search..." You've been corrected many times about your incorrect claims in regard to evolutionary "search" but you just keep on drumbeat repeating them anyway in the teeth of those corrections. "...plausible cause of..." On what do you base that alleged "plausible"? Your extremely biased, religious belief based opinion? "...FSCO/I is design." Exactly how does "design" "cause" "FSCO/I" or anything else? When an architect designs a house, does that "cause" the house? By the way, what do Picasso, Rembrandt, "FSCO/I", needles in haystacks, fishing reels, and all your other gibberish, including your character attacking, motive mongering, message dominance emotional rants, have to do with the topic of this thread? Shouldn't HeKS be deleting your comments?Pachyaena
December 5, 2014
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Keiths RE 905 908 I remember it well and I would encourage onlookers to go through that thread which is over 700 posts long. They will definitely see that your bluster has not changed. I would hardly call it begging since you certainly paid a lot of attention to me since we went back and forth for 3 days until this. Vivid
Keith I cant help but notice that you have ignored me which is understandable nor have you rebutted my post # 215. Your numbered statements have no relevancy to my position which is that we can be absolutely certain that cognitive activity is present. Of course you gave the store away here Keith
"Unless we can be absolutely certain of the correctness of our cognition"
If memory serves me correctly you did reengage I will go back and look. It wasn't that I was frustrated that they banned you as I was disappointed because unlike some really good critics (RDFish) comes to mind) you were such an easy mark and I hated to see you go. I agree with Stephenb
Keiths will do anything or say anything to avoid rational scrutiny.
You did that then and your doing it now to Stephenb with the same school yard taunts you employed in the thread you alluded to. Once again I would strongly urge onlookers to go through that thread, nothing has changed. However enough of this. I do not want to derail Heks thread and as much as Keith wants a distraction I wont be the one to give it to him. Keiths you are not fooling anyone, everyone can see you are dodging Stephens questions and resorting to your personal playbook, avoiding him by your school yard bully taunts. Vivid
vividbleau
December 5, 2014
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PS: This response specifically to the planet-pushing angels caricature of Newton, should also be noted: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/fyi-ftr-what-about-the-design-inference-explanatory-filter-vs-strawmannish-caricatures-of-how-design-inferences-are-made/kairosfocus
December 5, 2014
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F/N: FTR, the studiously ignored expose and correction of rain fairy etc strawman arguments insistently used by KS: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/fyi-ftr-what-about-onhs-vs-invisible-rain-fairies-salt-leprechauns-and-planet-pushing-angels-etc/ Just for those who came in late. KFkairosfocus
December 5, 2014
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vividbleau, That was a good thread. It was the one where I explained to a bunch of you why absolute certainty is a myth. (That should get Andre excited.) Toward the end of the thread you kept begging me to respond to you, but then I got banned, to your frustration. :-) It was also the thread in which I pointed out Barry's hypocrisy regarding the Law of Non-Contradiction.keith s
December 5, 2014
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SB: (Can you imagine how it would go if ID proponents used that excuse with KeithS–”You are way behind. Go back and read Dembski again and we will respond to your challenges when you get back. Until you prove yourself worthy, leave me alone with your stupid questions.” LOL) KeithS
That would never happen, because I’ve read Dembski and I understand him better than most of the IDers I’ve encountered. Did you see that embarrassing series of threads in which we critics educated Barry Arrington about CSI?
No, it would never happen because no ID proponent I know of is so emotionally immature or so ideologically driven that he would feel the need to use such a mindless, childish tactic. You are the only person that I know of who thinks that he should be permitted to demand an account from his adversary while claiming exemption for himself. It is not the mark of intellectual confidence.StephenB
December 5, 2014
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KeithS
And Torley is clearly smarter than you. His understanding of my argument, versus your confusion, is just one example of this.
Clearly, both VJTorley and HeKS are far more intelligent that you are. I don't think that even you would question the point. So now we can use your methodology to settle the issue. Since VJTorley is smarter than you, and since he understands your argument, it follows that he can grasp your weaknesses better than you can, so you should just accept his negative verdict and move on. Also, since HeKS is also smarter than you are (by a wide margin) you should accept his verdict for the same reason. So why not retire from the thread? (Can you believe that we are having this conversation? Keith feels so bruised by my questions that he wants to start a food fight. You've got to love it.) Keiths will do anything or say anything to avoid rational scrutiny.StephenB
December 5, 2014
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vividbleau, I was just thinking about you. You remember that thread a year or two ago where you were begging me to pay attention to you? StephenB reminds me of you.keith s
December 5, 2014
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StephenB:
Can you imagine how it would go if ID proponents used that excuse with KeithS–”You are way behind. Go back and read Dembski again and we will respond to your challenges when you get back. Until you prove yourself worthy, leave me alone with your stupid questions."
That would never happen, because I've read Dembski and I understand him better than most of the IDers I've encountered. Did you see that embarrassing series of threads in which we critics educated Barry Arrington about CSI? And Torley is clearly smarter than you. His understanding of my argument, versus your confusion, is just one example of this.keith s
December 5, 2014
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Stephenb RE 900
comoprehension
How ironic. Vividvividbleau
December 5, 2014
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Keiths
I’m ignoring you because you still haven’t caught up with the rest of us.
No, you are ignoring me because you are afraid to address my questions. (No one is interested in your perception about which ID people are the smartest or who you think is winning or losing this debate. We recognize those tactics for what they are and they bore us). We are interested only in your capacity to defend your unsubstantiated claims, and it is clear at the moment that you feel threatened by my challenge. Running away and resorting to the insult is not a credible response. The fact is that you have been presented with evidence for the barriers to macro-evolution and you simply ignored it because it doesn't fit in with your agenda. It's on the record. The fact is that you cannot defend your claim that we "know" unguided evolution exists. You made that claim, but you don't want to be held accountable. Sorry, but that is not the way life works. Sorry. The fact is that you cannot defend your claim that unguided evolution has been known to produce ONH's. Again, you may not want to be held accountable, but that is not my problem. The fact is that you cannot defend your claim that the existence of ONH's provides evidence for unguided evolution. If you can't make your case in a single paragraph, and clearly you cannot, then you don't have a case.
......When you’ve caught up,
It would seem that the person who runs away from scrutiny and cannot answer simple questions is the person who has fallen behind. Again, everyone recognizes this tactic for what it is---an evasion. (Can you imagine how it would go if ID proponents used that excuse with KeithS--"You are way behind. Go back and read Dembski again and we will respond to your challenges when you get back. Until you prove yourself worthy, leave me alone with your stupid questions." LOL)StephenB
December 5, 2014
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Phinehas, Ha. I see you went back and edited your comment from this...
And yet, one of the relatively few satellites in our solar system did exactly that.
...to this:
And yet, one of the relatively few satellites in our solar system did exactly that (with the help of tidal locking, of course).
Oops, indeed. Charon didn't fall into a synchronous orbit, because the orbit wasn't synchronous until after the tidal locking happened.keith s
December 5, 2014
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StephenB,
By the way, I haven’t heard from you lately.
I'm ignoring you because you still haven't caught up with the rest of us. I mentioned Vincent Torley in #840 because a) he's smarter than you; b) he's an IDer; and c) he understood my argument after reading my OP. I was hoping you'd take the hint and realize that the comoprehension problem lies entirely with you. So, again:
Read my OP. If you still don’t get it, read the OP again. If it still baffles you, ask someone (not me) for help, or read Vincent Torley’s original OP on the subject. He understood the argument without the handholding that you seem to require. Try to catch up with the rest of the class. You’re slowing us down.
When you've caught up, ask yourself if you have a counterargument. If you do, post it and I will happily respond. I will not spoon-feed you my argument, however.keith s
December 5, 2014
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keiths:
No, because it’s implausible for a satellite to fall into a synchronous orbit.
Phinehas:
And yet, one of the relatively few satellites in our solar system did exactly that.
No, it didn't, as I've already explained:
Which doesn’t prove the point at all. As I already explained, Charon did not fall into a Pluto-synchronous orbit. The orbit became Pluto-synchronous afterwards due to tidal locking.
It's amusing, but also kind of bizarre, that you keep repeating the same mistakes.keith s
December 5, 2014
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keiths:
How about responding to my actual argument rather than bizarre disanalogies you’ve invented involving synchronous orbits or accidentally self-parking cars?
50 First Debates syndrome strikes again. I already told you why I was using "bizarre disanalogies." So, why have you been using them?Phinehas
December 5, 2014
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KeithS
Okay, then what is the barrier and what is your evidence for it? Be specific.
I recall VJTorley's recent thread that was headlined by that very name, "Barriers to macro-evolution." I also recall your reaction: You visited the thread, ignored the evidence, and refrained from saying a word about the subject---choosing to obsess over UD's moderation policy. By the way, I haven't heard from you lately. How do you “know” that unguided evolution exists? You have never answered this question except to say that all intelligent people believe it. Is that your best shot? What evidence to you have to support your claim that unguided evolution has been observed generating ONH’s.StephenB
December 5, 2014
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keiths:
No, because it’s implausible for a satellite to fall into a synchronous orbit.
And yet, one of the relatively few satellites in our solar system did exactly that (with the help of tidal locking, of course). Oops. Unless you are back to believing in Planetary Angels, of course.Phinehas
December 5, 2014
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Me_Think:
You don’t known the designer and his/her/it’s capabilities, so try arguing without the ‘front-loaded information’ bit.
You don’t known the designer and his/her/it’s capabilities, so why should I? I don't really feel any need to, since I'm not arguing for it in the first place. I think you are missing my point, so here it is: If information was front-loaded before the creation of the ONH, then keiths' "unguided" claim, if it is true, doesn't preclude ID. Further, ID claims that there are indeed barriers to microevolution accumulating into things like brains and consciousness and such, but ID is open to the idea that ingeniously conceived and implemented front-loaded information could overcome these barriers, so again, keiths' "unguided" argument, if true is still relatively trivial. But then keiths is a long, long, long way from demonstrating that his "unguided" argument has the slightest bit of support, let alone that it is true.Phinehas
December 5, 2014
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Phinehas #891:
Why am I suddenly talking about a moon around Pluto, keiths? Wrack your memory. Why? Why? What was the context?
Take it easy, Phinehas. Your error rate shoots way up when you're flustered.
Oh, that’s right. You’d just made a ridiculous claim about “no unguided processes,” and I was pointing out that unguided processes could indeed put a satellite into synchronous orbit, and used the example of Charon to prove the point.
Which doesn't prove the point at all. As I already explained, Charon did not fall into a Pluto-synchronous orbit. The orbit became Pluto-synchronous afterwards due to tidal locking.
A satellite in synchronous orbit, whether around Pluto or the Earth, works just fine as an analogy.
No, because it's implausible for a satellite to fall into a synchronous orbit. As Wikipedia notes:
For natural satellites, which can attain a synchronous orbit only by tidally locking their parent body, it always goes in hand with synchronous rotation of the satellite. This is because the smaller body becomes tidally locked faster, and by the time a synchronous orbit is achieved, it has had a locked synchronous rotation for a long time already.
keiths:
So how is this supposed to be a problem for my argument?
Phinehas:
Because your argument would have us ruling out intelligent causes if we found a satellite in synchronous orbit around a planet that, upon further examination, revealed technology beyond our own capability to reproduce.
How is this analogous to my argument? Look, Phinehas, analogies are clearly not your thing, nor is orbital mechanics. How about responding to my actual argument rather than bizarre disanalogies you've invented involving synchronous orbits or accidentally self-parking cars?keith s
December 5, 2014
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Phinehas @ 892
And even if you did, this would do nothing to demonstrate that unguided microevolution can overcome the barriers that prevent it from accumulating to become macroevolution without the help of front-loaded information
This thread is going no where, so my comment is just a note: You don't known the designer and his/her/it's capabilities, so try arguing without the 'front-loaded information' bit.Me_Think
December 5, 2014
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keiths:
You are effectively making this argument: “Sure, the evidence looks exactly like it would if unguided evolution were true, but I know better. I personally have my doubts about unguided evolution, and I think there is a barrier that prevents unguided microevolution from accumulating to become macroevolution. I am so confident, so sure of this barrier that I can infer design despite the ONH evidence.”
Nope. This is a tired retread of a strawman. My actual argument is closer to this: “Sure, the evidence looks exactly like it would if branching descent with vertical inheritance were true, but so what? You've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that this branching descent with vertical inheritance must have been unguided. And even if you did, this would do nothing to demonstrate that unguided microevolution can overcome the barriers that prevent it from accumulating to become macroevolution without the help of front-loaded information. There is absolutely nothing in your argument that undermines an ID inference in the slightest, and only your delusions are preventing you from seeing this.”Phinehas
December 5, 2014
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keiths:
First you were talking about a satellite “in geosynchronous orbit above the earth”, and now you’re suddenly talking about a tidally locked moon in a Pluto-synchronous orbit above Pluto. I guess that first analogy didn’t work out too well for you.
And now you're back to the short-term memory problems. So, "50 First Debates" it is I guess. Why am I suddenly talking about a moon around Pluto, keiths? Wrack your memory. Why? Why? What was the context? Oh, that's right. You'd just made a ridiculous claim about "no unguided processes," and I was pointing out that unguided processes could indeed put a satellite into synchronous orbit, and used the example of Charon to prove the point. A satellite in synchronous orbit, whether around Pluto or the Earth, works just fine as an analogy.
Does Charon’s orbit have a plausible natural explanation? Yes. Should we invoke design? No.
Indeed! So, I guess it's a good thing no one is invoking design to explain either Charon's orbit or the ONH, eh? But if the next Voyager sends back pictures of skyscrapers built on Charon's surface, I bet there will be quite the kerfuffle, despite the fact that Charon's orbit has a plausible natural explanation. Do you disagree?
So how is this supposed to be a problem for my argument?
Because your argument would have us ruling out intelligent causes if we found a satellite in synchronous orbit around a planet that, upon further examination, revealed technology beyond our own capability to reproduce.
(And by the way, you do realize that Charon’s orbit is Pluto-synchronous because of tidal locking, don’t you? Charon didn’t just fall into a synchronous orbit.)
Of course I realize that. I'm the one who corrected your mistaken belief that unguided forces couldn't place a satellite in synchronous orbit, remember?Phinehas
December 5, 2014
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Phinehas #886:
Instead, what you desperately need is to demonstrate that the phenomenon in question a) doesn’t require [an intelligent cause], and b) is explained far better by an unintelligent cause.
That's what my argument does. The ONH is precisely what UE predicts, and it's exactly what ID doesn't predict. The fit between UE and the evidence is extremely strong, which makes it the better hypothesis. To successfully argue against UE, you need something just as strong or stronger on the ID side of the ledger. Where is your evidence? I keep asking IDers for evidence of a barrier that prevents microevolution from accumulating to become macroevolution, but they never provide one. The response I usually get is "you need to provide a step-by-step account of how X evolved", which is absurd, since IDers themselves can't meet the equivalent requirement. That is, they can't provide a step-by-step account of how X was designed and implemented. So what is the barrier, and what is your evidence? Keep in mind that your evidence needs to be strong enough to overcome the fantastic match between UE and the ONH evidence. You are effectively making this argument: "Sure, the evidence looks exactly like it would if unguided evolution were true, but I know better. I personally have my doubts about unguided evolution, and I think there is a barrier that prevents unguided microevolution from accumulating to become macroevolution. I am so confident, so sure of this barrier that I can infer design despite the ONH evidence." Okay, then what is the barrier and what is your evidence for it? Be specific. Show us that the ONH requires an intelligent cause, as you claim.keith s
December 5, 2014
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Phinehas #887, Thanks for the chuckle. First you were talking about a satellite "in geosynchronous orbit above the earth", and now you're suddenly talking about a tidally locked moon in a Pluto-synchronous orbit above Pluto. I guess that first analogy didn't work out too well for you. So now let's look at your revised example. Does Charon's orbit have a plausible natural explanation? Yes. Should we invoke design? No. So how is this supposed to be a problem for my argument? (And by the way, you do realize that Charon's orbit is Pluto-synchronous because of tidal locking, don't you? Charon didn't just fall into a synchronous orbit.)keith s
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