Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

TEs Must Say the Explanation of an Illusion is Itself an Illusion as the Price of Admission to the “Cool Kids” Club

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Editors:  This was originally posted under a different title in May 2012.  We were inspired to repost it by Dr. Sewell’s post here

Bishop Ussher famously calculated that the universe was created on October 23, 4004 BC.  I do not hold this or any other young earth creationist (YEC) position.  The evidence that the universe is several billion years old seems fairly compelling to me.  In particular, certain celestial objects (stars, galaxies, supernovas, etc.) are billions of light years away.  From this fact I deduce that the light we see from these objects has been traveling billions of years to get to us, which leads to the conclusion that the objects emitted the light billions of years ago, which in turn means the objects are billions of years old.  This chain of inferences obviously leaves no room for an age of the universe measured in only thousands of years.

YEC proponents have the same evidence as the rest of us, and they admit the universe appears to be billions of years old.  Nevertheless, they persist in their YEC beliefs.  How can they do this?  There is an enormous body of literature on the subject that cannot be summarized adequately in the confines of a blog post, but the short answer is YECs have erected a series of plausible (to them) explanations for the apparent age of the universe.  For example, some YECs hold that just as God created Adam with apparent age (i.e, he started out as an adult; he was never an infant, a toddler, or a teenager), God also created the universe with apparent age.  This means that the light we see from those distant objects was not emitted billions of years ago.  Instead, God created that light “in route.”  Other YECs assert that the speed of light need not have been constant, and if light traveled in the past many times faster than it does now, our deductions about the age of the universe based on an assumption that the speed of light has always been the same would be wrong.

I do not reject YEC reasoning such as this as a logical impossibility.  By this I mean that while God cannot do logically impossible things (e.g., he cannot make a “square circle” or cause 2+2 to equal 73), he can perform miracles.  He can turn water into wine; he can make five loaves of bread and two fish feed thousands of people.  Indeed, the very act of creating the universe — no matter when he did it — was a miracle.  Therefore, I conclude that God, being God, could have created the universe on October 23, 4004 BC and made it look billions of years old just as the YECs say, even if that is not what I personally believe.  

The YEC position cannot, therefore, be refuted as a logical impossibility.  Nor can it be refuted by appealing to the evidence.  “Wait just a cotton picking minute Barry!” you might say.  “In the first paragraph you told us you believe the ‘evidence’ leads to the conclusion that the universe is billions of years old.”  And so I did.  Here is where we must distinguish between the evidence, which is the same for everyone, and an interpretive framework for that evidence, which can vary.  By “interpretive framework” I mean the set of unprovable assumptions each of us brings to bear when we analyze the evidence.  For example, the vast majority of scientists assume that the speed of light has been constant since the beginning of the universe.  As we have seen, some YEC scientists believe that light has slowed down significantly since the creation event.  Obviously, conclusions about the age of the universe from the “light evidence” will vary enormously depending upon which group is correct.  

Very interestingly, despite the fact that most people believe that it is a scientifically proven “fact” that the speed of light has always been the same as it is now, it most certainly is not.  The current speed of light is an observable scientific fact.  We cannot, however, know with certainty what the speed of light was before observations of the speed of light were made.  This assertion is not in the least controversial.  Mainstream scientists admit that their assumptions about the fixed nature of the speed of light in the remote past are just that, assumptions.  In philosophical terms, mainstream scientists subscribe to “uniformitarianism,” the assumption that physical processes operated in the past in the same way they are observed to operate now.  YEC scientists by and large reject uniformitarianism.  Which group is correct is beside my point.  The point is that uniformitarianism is an assumption of most scientists.  It has not been, and indeed as a matter of strict logic cannot be, demonstrated by science.  In other words, the uniformitarian assumption is part of the interpretive framework mainstream scientists bring to bear on the evidence.  The uniformitarian assumption is not part of the evidence itself.

This brings me to the point of this post.  I don’t usually argue with YEC’s, because no matter how long and hard you argue with them, you will never convince them based on appeals to logic and evidence.  There is, almost literally, nothing you can say that might change their mind, so arguing with them is usually pointless.  Yes, the YEC proponent has the same evidence that you do, but he interprets that evidence within a different interpretive framework.  You might think his interpretive framework is flawed, but you cannot say, as a matter of strict logic, that his interpretive framework must be necessarily flawed.  In other words, you must admit that as a matter of strict logic it is possible, for instance, for light to be slower now than it was in the past.  And given the premise of some YECs that light is in fact slower now than it was in the past, their conclusions might then follow.  

Why do YECs reject uniformitarianism?  Because they are devoted to a particular interpretation of the Biblical creation account.  They believe the Bible says the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago, and if they are going to believe the Bible is true they must therefore believe the universe was created in six days a few thousand years ago.  It does no good to appeal to logic or evidence.  As I have demonstrated above, a young universe is not a logical impossibility and no matter what evidence you adduce that, to you, indicates the universe is very old, the YEC will have an answer (e.g., “light has slowed down”). 

I was thinking about this yesterday when we were discussing the theistic evolutionists (TEs) over at BioLogos.  TEs are like YECs in this respect — they cling to a scientific view that runs counter to the obvious evidence because of their prior commitments.  

Let me explain what I mean.  Just as it is “obvious” that the universe appears to be several billion years old, it is “obvious” that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  That statement is not based on my religious beliefs; even the atheists believe that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  Arch-atheist Richard Dawkins famously said that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  Surely our friends at BioLogos will go as far as atheist Dawkins and admit that living things “appear” to have been designed for a purpose.  

Now notice the similarity between TEs and YECs:  Everyone concedes that the universe appears to be billions of years old; everyone concedes that living things appear to have been designed for a purpose.  YECs say the first appearance is an illusion.  TEs  say the second appearance is an illusion.  

We have already seen how YECs come to the conclusion that the apparent age of the universe is an illusion.  How do TEs come to the conclusion that the appearance of design in living things is an illusion?  The same way Richard Dawkins does, by appealing to the marvelous creative powers of Darwinian processes that, he says, are able to mimic design through strictly natural means.  Darwinists say, as they must, that the appearance of design that they admit exists is not real but an illusion.  Indeed, the whole purpose of the Darwinian theory of origins is to account for the appearance of design without having to resort to a designer. 

YECs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the age of the universe because of their prior commitments.  Why do TEs reject the “obvious” conclusion about the design of living things?  Further, why do TEs reject that obvious conclusion in the very teeth of the Biblical injunction to regard the appearance of design as proof of God’s existence (Romans 1).  

The answer has to do with what I call the “cool kids” impulse that all humans have to one extent or another.  When I was in school all of the “cool kids” sat at a particular table at lunch, and everyone wanted to be in that group.  I was not a cool kid, and I figured out pretty early that, for better or ill, the streak of stubborn individualism that runs to my very core would probably prevent me from ever being a cool kid.  I refused to conform and in order to be a cool kid you have to conform to the other cool kids.  Don’t get me wrong.  I very much wanted to be a cool kid.  Everyone wants to be a cool kid, and believe me, my life would have been so much easier if I had been a cool kid.  This is sociology 101.  But I was unwilling (perhaps even unable) to pay the price of admission to the cool kids club – i.e., conformity.

The cool kids impulse does not go away when we are adults, and in the academic community all of the cool kids sit at the Darwinian table.  TEs want to be cool kids; they want to be respectable and accepted in the academic community.  Sadly for them, the price the academic cool kids club extracts for admission is denial of the obvious appearance of design in living things and acceptance of the patent absurdity that the accretion of random errors sorted by a fitness function can account for the stupendously complex nano-machines we call cells.  

This is not, however, the end of the story for TEs.  They know that to deny design in the universe is to deny the designer of the universe, which is to deny God, and what is the point of being a TE if you reject the “T” part?  In order to maintain their membership in the cool kids club TEs slam the front door in God’s face when they deny the reality underlying the apparent design of living things that even atheists admit.  But they are perfectly willing to let God in the backdoor just so long as he stays out of sight and doesn’t get them kicked out of the club.  

As I discussed yesterday, I am thinking of TEs like Stephen Barr.  Dr. Barr is perfectly happy to accept the Darwinian account of evolution.  Darwinism says that mechanical necessity (i.e., natural selection) plus random chance (mutation, drift, etc.) are sufficient to account for the apparent design of living things.  It is, in StephenB’s words, a “design-free random process.”  In his “Miracle of Evolution,” Dr. Barr slams the front door shut on God when he accepts the Darwinian account.  Then he cracks the backdoor open ever so slightly to let God slip in when he asserts that what we perceive as a “design-free random process” is really, at a deeper level of existence, directed by God in a way that is empirically undetectable at this level of existence.

Barr is saying that in order to maintain his membership in the cool kids club he must affirm that evolution is purely random and design free.  How is his position different from the atheist position espoused by Richard Dawkins?  At the level of existence in which we examine empirical data, Barr’s position is identical to Dawkins’ position.  But, says Barr, when he uses the word “random,” he really means “apparently random but really directed.”  Apparently, Barr believes that, in Einstein’s famous phrase, God really does play dice with the universe.  But according to Barr, God, has loaded the dice so that they rolled “life,” however improbable that might have been (like a thousand 7′s in a row with real dice), and God’s dice loading is so clever that the “fix” can never be detected empirically. 

In this way Barr maintains membership in the academic cool kids club by espousing a Darwinian account of origins that is indistinguishable from the account of origins that atheists like Dawkins and Dennnett espouse.  Yet he keeps the “T” in his “TE” by saying that at a wholly different level of existence God fixed the game so that “random” is not really random but “directed.”  He wants to have it both ways. 

Here again, the TE position is exactly the same as the YEC position.  As we have already seen, you cannot push a YEC off his position by appealing to logic or evidence.  Nor can you push Dr. Barr off his position by appealing to logic and evidence.  We cannot rule Barr’s position out on strictly logical grounds.  God, being God, can certainly fix the dice in an empirically undetectable way if that is how he wants to accomplish his purposes.  Nor, by definition, can one rule Barr’s position out empirically short of finding the proverbial “made by YHWH” inscription on a cell.  

Finally, there is a certain irony in Barr’s position.  The atheist says living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes.  The TE says that living things appear to be designed but the appearance of design is an illusion explained by random Darwinian processes, BUT the randomness of Darwinian process is itself an illusion, because those processes are really directed by God to produce living things.  Thus, according to the TEs, the explanation of one illusion (the randomness of underlying Darwinism), which is an explanation of another illusion (the apparent design of living things) is, you guessed it, design.  Another way of putting it is the TE says design is an illusion explained by random process which are in turn an illusion explained by design.  As the comedian says, “That’s funny.  I don’t care who you are.”

Comments
Timaeus @174: "All right, so TEs from time to time disagree with each other in books. But I had in mind live conversations, where the TEs are in the room with each other, or on the internet talk group with each other, and where ID and or YEC people are present...." I'm sorry that I didn't give the kind of answer you were thinking of, Timaeus; I interpreted your question incorrectly. The kinds of conversations you have in mind (as you spell out here) just don't happen on the internet; or, if they do, I'd love to have someone show me where to look. Nor do they happen on the internet, even if you leave out the part about ID or YEC people being present. Polkinghorne doesn't even have an email address; Russell never blogs; Barbour is no longer active, although he's still living. I've witnessed several very lively conversations in "old fashioned" (non-electronic) venues, and some of them included ID people and even YEC people, though for the most part they involved either TE people alone or TE people in conversation with secular scientists and scholars, at least some of them atheists. I contributed something myself to one of those conversations, after the fact, by giving my take on it in “Appreciating a Scientist-Theologian: Some Remarks on the Work of John Polkinghorne.” Zygon 35.4 (December 2000), 971-6. Even this is not publicly available, unfortunately, but I'll provide the abstract: **** Perhaps the greatest irony about the contemporary religion/science dialogue is the fact that, despite their own strongly articulated denials, many thinkers implicitly accept the “warfare” thesis of A.D. White–that is, they agree with White that traditional theology has proved unable to engage science in fruitful conversation. More than most others, John Polkinghorne understands just how badly White misread the history of Christianity and science, and how much theology has been impoverished by its failure to challenge this core assumption of modernity. **** Anyone who wants to read the essay but cannot access it in paper or electronic form is invited to contact me: tdavis at messiah dot edu. Your characterization of me a sort of "silk road" is flattering and somewhat humorous, but I see the serious point behind it. As I said before, TE theory is done at an academic level, not a popular level. This is indeed related to the absence of interactive, publicly visible conversations among TEs. I suspect that in most academic fields that are not related in some way to politics or government, such conversations would be pretty rare. Finally I'll say something about this: "TE once a unity that had a “Fall” and became fragmented? Or was it never a unity in the first place, but rather, a set of parallel developments, as various Christians, for various reasons, found a need to talk about evolution and Christian theology? And either way, what is your strategy for bringing all the TE groups together into a coherent body of thought about science and creation?" As I've tried to say in many places, TE is as much of a "big tent" as ID is, except I that I don't see atheists or agnostics thinking about it in ways analogous to David Berlinski's relationship with ID (which is surely ambiguous in any case). There is no one strand and never really has been. I can't imagine TE ever forming "a coherent body of thought" as you put it, although I've sometimes offered a simple but very flexible definition that I believe is historically accurate. There simply is no such thing as TE, per se; there are simply many discrete forms of it. That's one reason that most generalizations are going to be fraught with difficulties.Ted Davis
May 16, 2012
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--"Ted: " The reason I often point to other sources, when the ideas they present are not my own (i.e., I didn’t create those ideas, I simply report them and either offer support or dissent), is simple: ideas are best conveyed by those who created them. My main concern, relative to our conversation here, is the accuracy of your observations about some of those ideas. As a philosophy student, you might well agree that there is no substitute for reading Descartes, no substitute for reading Hume. If you want to engage Polkinghorne, you can do so by commenting on some subset of his ideas, as found in his own writings; ditto for Russell; ditto for anyone else, as you’ve already done here with Barr. I’m not going to *debate* you about a set of ideas I didn’t create. Philosophers like to do that, as you know, but I’m not a philosopher." Ted, I will certainly second your proposition that alluding to multiple sources is a good intellectual exercise. I read a lot of books and so do you. I think about things and so do you. Without these resources, we could not broaden ourselves, test our biases, or fine-tune (dare I say, even change) our opinions. While there is, I am sure, an impressive overlap for heavy readers in the sense that many have experienced some of the same authors, each reader will be attracted to, and spend more time with, the ones who personally edify him and bring him closer to what he perceives to be the truth. Even so, the best among us will also read authors who oppose our viewpoints, an exercise in self control for which there is no substitute. I look forward to the day when TEs and ID proponents can sit down and discuss all the issues honestly and in a spirit of friendliness and mutual respect. Perhaps it is also possible with you and me. I will never despair of that prospect. --"But, I *did* answer your question. I’ve answered it before. You don’t like my answer; I’m fine with that but I wasn’t evasive in the least." I will not press the matter any further because it serves no purpose. The reason I phrased the question the way I did was so that we could use common terms to summarize and provide balance to a key intellectual conflict. My experience with TEs is that, when describing their ideas, they change the meanings of words in places where consistency is essential and they use ambiguous language in other places where clarity is essential. This process, which may be unconscious, tends to camouflage the presence of mutually incompatible ideas. So, when I ask, "Is evolution a teleological process or a non-teleological process," the TEs I have encountered simply will not answer on those terms because, one gathers, they prefer not to admit in public that, for them, the answer is--- "both." So, they just rephrase the question in a new language that promises to extricate them from their dilemma. --"The ideas I create and advance myself are historical, Stephen. *They* are the ideas I am always willing to debate. I know them, I’m invested in them, and I’m fully capable of defending them against all comers. I usually present them and defend them in historical quarters, though occasionally I make historically-based commentaries on contemporary issues in other quarters. I’m sure this is evident to you, if you’ve read any of my work." I have. I consider you to be a talented writer. --"If you want to debate any of *my* ideas, I’d be very happy to do so as far as available time allows. Please take my invitation to listen to the interview. If necessary, I’ll try to provide an abstract, but there’s no substitute for listening to the interview itself. Let me know if you’d like to pursue this, and I’ll do my best to make time for it." When I find the time, soon I hope, I will make a disciplined effort to listen to the interview and consider it with an open, minded, non-competitive attitude. In the meantime, I may also try to continue my dialogue with the YECs, but I don't know for how much longer. Duty calls for me as well. Peace!StephenB
May 16, 2012
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For StephenB Sorry, that last post was a bit mistake riddled. Let me try again. OK, I am not a cosmologist or an astronomer so I cannot explain it very well to you I’m afraid. Dr. John Hartnett is the man who devised this model. It involves time dilation, an assumption that our galaxy is close to the center of a finite universe (Big Bang arbitrarily assumes no center and no boundary to the universe to make it work), and a reliance on the Scriptural passages that tell us that God stretched out the heavens. In this model, it is assumed that this expansion of the universe from it's original created size to the current size took place during Day 4 of creation when God created the sun, moon, and stars. It involves 5 dimensions – the normal dimensions of space, a time dimension, and the 5th dimension is the velocity of the expansion of the cosmos. Genesis is written from the vantage point of the earth. While God created the stars and expanded the universe on day 4, 24 hours passed on earth, but because of time dilation due to the speed of the expansion of space as God stretched it out, time passed super quickly the further out into space you got. So while clocks on earth which would be close to the center of the universe ran very slowly, clocks in the expanding universe would have been racing. This would mean that there was plenty of time from the distant stars to reach the earth because the light years measured out there in the extremes of space passed much faster that time on earth. This model does need some direct supernatural intervention, but that is what the Bible teaches – God intervened in time and space and created the heavens and the earth in 6 days. This theory has no need to appeal to any dark matter, dark energy, or other fudge factors that are necessary to support the Big Bang. Hartnett uses the theory of special relativity – the effect of motion on time – that was developed by Dr. Moshe Carmeli, but he takes the theory a step further than Carmeli and applies it to the cosmos/universe as well. Sorry for the sloppy post.tjguy
May 16, 2012
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Stephen @171: The reason I often point to other sources, when the ideas they present are not my own (i.e., I didn't create those ideas, I simply report them and either offer support or dissent), is simple: ideas are best conveyed by those who created them. My main concern, relative to our conversation here, is the accuracy of your observations about some of those ideas. As a philosophy student, you might well agree that there is no substitute for reading Descartes, no substitute for reading Hume. If you want to engage Polkinghorne, you can do so by commenting on some subset of his ideas, as found in his own writings; ditto for Russell; ditto for anyone else, as you've already done here with Barr. I'm not going to *debate* you about a set of ideas I didn't create. Philosophers like to do that, as you know, but I'm not a philosopher. But, I *did* answer your question. I've answered it before. You don't like my answer; I'm fine with that but I wasn't evasive in the least. The ideas I create and advance myself are historical, Stephen. *They* are the ideas I am always willing to debate. I know them, I'm invested in them, and I'm fully capable of defending them against all comers. I usually present them and defend them in historical quarters, though occasionally I make historically-based commentaries on contemporary issues in other quarters. I'm sure this is evident to you, if you've read any of my work. If you want to debate any of *my* ideas, I'd be very happy to do so as far as available time allows. Please take my invitation to listen to the interview. If necessary, I'll try to provide an abstract, but there's no substitute for listening to the interview itself. Let me know if you'd like to pursue this, and I'll do my best to make time for it.Ted Davis
May 16, 2012
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For StephenB @164 OK, here is a short summary of the distant starlight theory. I am not a cosmologist or an astronomer so I cannot explain it very well to you I’m afraid. Dr. John Hartnett is the man who devised this model. It involves time dilation, an assumption that our galaxy is close to the center of a finite universe (Big Bang assumes no center and no boundary to the universe), and a reliance on the Scriptural passages that tell us that God stretched out the heavens. In this model, it is assumed that this expansion from normal size to current size took place during day four of creation when God created the sun, moon, and stars. It involves 5 dimensions – the normal dimensions of space, a time dimension, and time, and the velocity of the expansion of the cosmos. Genesis is written from the vantage point of the earth. While God created the stars and expanded the universe on day four, 24 hours passed on earth, but because of time dilation due to the speed of the expansion of space as God stretched it out. Clocks on earth which would be close to the center ran very slowly compared to the clocks in the expanding universe. This would mean that there was plenty of time from the distant stars to reach the earth because the clocks were magnitudes of times faster than the clocks on earth. This model does need some direct supernatural intervention, but that is what the Bible teaches – God created the heavens and the earth. He did different things on each day of the week. It doesn’t need to appeal to any dark matter, dark energy, or other fudge factors that are necessary to support the Big Bang. Hartnett uses the theory of special relativity – the effect of motion on time – that was developed by Dr. Moshe Carmeli. But Hartnett takes the theory a step further than Carmeli and applies it to the cosmos/universe as well.
While you are providing your summary, explain why you think the stars in question are “distant.” If the universe is only a few thousand years old, then the stars should not be all that far away, unless you think time and distance are not related.
The stars are distant because God stretched out the heavens. I think the explanation of Hartnett’s model answers that question.
“Oh yes, and tell me why you do not accept Jesus’ statements that “the Father causes the sun to rise” and why you choose to accept the alternate explanation by scientists to the effect that the earth revolves around the sun.” … when Jesus said that “the Father causes the sun to rise,” He was consciously using phenomenological and picturesque language in keeping with the common experience of his audience. Do you agree with my assessment? If so, then why do you, as a Biblical literalist, accept science’s testimony that the earth revolves around the sun and reject Jesus plain language to the effect that “the sun rises.”
Oh, you are right. I’m sorry. I wrote up an answer and somehow must not have sent it. I agree with you that Jesus is using phenomenological language as we also commonly do today. Even scientists speak of this type of thing, so we are agreed that it is not a scientific mistake here. This passage is not really disputed. We all realize how Jesus is speaking. Anyway, the context here does not really give us any clues as to whether to take it literally or not and that is very different than Genesis 1. Plus, unlike Genesis, there are not any other Scriptures either that really give us much of a clue. So we need some outside help. Science can help us here in a definitive way. Why? Because we can use regular operational science to verify the heliocentric system with our own eyes. It is not unverifiable historical science that is trying to figure out the distant past that only God has observed and written about. Whether we take Jesus' words literally in a scientific sense or not, the meaning of what Jesus is saying does not change. Plus, the point of the passage is to speak about However, how we choose to interpret the meaning of the text of Genesis has huge implications for biblical interpretation all through the Bible where Genesis is quoted are huge. In Matthew, we have just one short statement, the purpose of which is to make a totally different point about the goodness of God. Wouldn’t you say that is clear from the text? However, in Genesis, we have whole chapters to deal with. The context does give us some very specific hints and guidelines as do other inspired biblical writers who refer to Genesis. In Matthew, from a biblical perspective, I wouldn’t have a problem with either interpretation – heliocentric or geocentric – if we had to rely on historical science to help us out. But since we can use real science here, it clearly rules out the geocentric interpretation. But with your interpretation method of Genesis, you have to figure out arbitrarily what the author’s intention was. You do that by deciding which words/sentences you take literally and which ones you do not. My guess is that your views of scientific "truth" influence this decision making process of yours. This is very dangerous when it comes to biblical interpretation. First you said there was only one intention. Then you said there could have been others. But how we know any of this is totally subjective so it becomes more opinion than fact to me. How many things did He intend to say? How do we know? Is it all arbitrary? To do that kind of a dissection on Genesis, where some of it you believe in a literal way and much of it you basically reject the plain meaning of the words, makes you wonder why God even bothered to put in the irrelevant sections in the Bible in the first place. If you can’t take the plain meaning of the words as the meaning of the passage, how do you know that you can take any of it literally? I will post the textual reasons I have for taking the plain meaning of the words as the intended meaning of the author. For me, this is the most important evidence of all because I start with what God’s Word says. I just misplaced that file and have to find it first. By they way, are you going to interact with my other posts 157, 158, & the first part of 159?tjguy
May 16, 2012
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Thank you, Ted. All right, so TEs from time to time disagree with each other in books. But I had in mind live conversations, where the TEs are in the room with each other, or on the internet talk group with each other, and where ID and or YEC people are present. I've never seen a TE take issue with another TE in such a situation. Not on Biologos, or the old ASA-list, etc. The moment an ID person is present, the ID person is "all wrong" and the TEs clasp hands, going silent about their theological differences. And look at the examples you have given. Barbour -- professor of the history/philosophy of science -- debating with Polkinghorne -- former Oxford physicist still well-connected with the academic world. You don't have Polkinghorne arguing with Miller, do you? Or Barbour arguing with Giberson? Or Gingerich arguing with Venema? Or Russell chastising Matheson for the sarcasm and vulgarity of some of the comments on his blog? The two groups of TEs -- the serious academic physicist-astronomers and the amorphous cluster of life scientists and liberal preachers and undergrads and housewives who write the columns at BioLogos -- hardly talk to each other. There is almost as little inter-communication between the two groups as there is between Michael Denton and Al Mohler. In fact, the only consistent link I can think of between the two groups, Ted, is you yourself. You are like the narrow Silk Road which in ancient times made the slim connection between the two worlds, East and West, sealed off from each other by great mountain ranges. Without you, TE wouldn't be a unity at all. It would be two separate communities, the internet-centered world of BioLogos, with its army of former fundamentalists-turned-TEs, of former Darwin-haters-turned-Darwin-worshippers, of bench biologists resentful of criticism of the venerable names and theories of their discipline, of people more interested in personal testimonials about "the faith of a scientist" than in post-graduate level theology and science discussion, and on the other hand, the book-centered, university-centered world of the serious TEs you are urging us all to pay attention to. And the question is why the two groups have so little to do with one another, and why you have the lonely task of bringing them together. Was TE once a unity that had a "Fall" and became fragmented? Or was it never a unity in the first place, but rather, a set of parallel developments, as various Christians, for various reasons, found a need to talk about evolution and Christian theology? And either way, what is your strategy for bringing all the TE groups together into a coherent body of thought about science and creation?Timaeus
May 15, 2012
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Stephen, this goes for me and probably for Ted as well: Faith and reason are not in conflict. Various people who claim to speak for both, theologians and scientists, respectively, are. These two statements are not contradictory.tragic mishap
May 15, 2012
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..willingness of each [party} to submit his ideas to scrutiny and answer challenges.StephenB
May 15, 2012
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--Ted Davis: "What I question is your qualifications to write with apparent authority about a topic (TE) on which you by your own admission you have done very limited reading." That is an outright false statement. I have never admitted any such thing. You chose one author out of hundreds, perhaps thousands, and declared that because I had merely read a good number of his articles and none of his books, that I am not qualified to "pontificate" about TE. Do you really expect to get away with that? If you return, I have a few questions about your reading list. --"You’re right, Stephen, it’s about bibliography: if you haven’t read most of the relevant sources, it’s hard for me to take your conclusions seriously." Again, you are confused. I have read most of the "relevant" sources even by your arbitrary standards, including a good number of authors that you would do well to consult. What you don't understand, Ted, is that it is more important to establish credibility by advancing and defending rational arguments than to simply make empty claims about being well read. --"If someone came here and offered global conclusions about ID, without having read any books by Dembski, Johnson, Wells, Behe, Denton, or Meyer, I have no doubt you would say that he or she doesn’t know enough about ID to have an opinion worth defending. And, you’d be right." I would approach them the same way I approach you on the subject of Theistic Evolution. I would reduce the subject matter to its simplest essence and ask them three or four questions to test their competence. I have already done that with you, by the way, and you didn't pass the test. --"It will be many years, Stephen, before I have the kind of time that you seem to have to devote to blogging. I’m sure you know this. I gather that you are probably retired, but I have a day job." I am, one gathers, taking advantage of Ted even though he started this party. Remarkable! --"You will have this advantage on me for a long time, and there is nothing I can do about that. You will see this simply as ducking your questions and arguments." Please stop with the sour grapes. If you don't have time to debate me, then you should not start a debate with me. --"However, when I do provide a clean and relatively brief summary of my thought about science and religion, including TE, @64, you don’t listen to it and engage any of my ideas; rather, you reply by saying that I haven’t earned the right to be heard." It would have taken you far less time to simply answer my question rather than to conceive multiple reasons for evading it. The problem is not just that you will not address the question, but also that you do not understand its significance. ---"Well, Stephen I can’t make decisions for you about what’s worth reading and what isn’t. I was responding to this: “Truths provided by God through his Divine revelation are consistent with truths apprehended through God’s revelation in nature. Faith and reason are perfectly compatible. TEs do not believe this, to their discredit.” This only confirms for me that either you’ve never read someone like Polkinghorne, or you didn’t understand what you read. And, if you don’t bother to listen to my interview, you’re not going to understand me, either. You have every right not even to *try* to understand me, Polkinghorne, or any other thinker. We all have that right." The issue, dear Ted, is not whether they SAY that faith and reason are compatible, but whether a fair analysis of their readings confirms that their main arguments are aligned with that claim. If Polkinghorne's Christian faith is perfectly compatible with his science, then why does he deny God's omniscience. If Russell's Christian faith is perfectly compatible with his science, why does he say that Theology and science "are often in conflict?" --"But, you don’t have the right to make broad pronouncements about a topic that you don’t try to understand; bibliography counts. I know you don’t agree with this, Stephen, but you aren’t the only reader here. Let each reader evaluate my point for herself." If TEs are intellectually inconsistent and conflicted, and most of them are, I have a perfect right to say so. If TEs cannot withstand scrutiny, and they clearly cannot, then they don't deserve to be believed. --"I have no more comments for Stephen, since he isn’t interested in understanding my ideas; for others, however, let me point to a review I did of one of Polkinghorne’s recent books, a review that can be read in just a few minutes: http://www.firstthings.com/ont.....lkinghorne" I am interested in knowing if you can DEFEND your ideas. ---"I find Polkinghorne’s views impossible to square with Stephen’s claim that “Faith and reason are perfectly compatible. TEs do not believe this, to their discredit.” Dear reader: do the experiment; read the review; recognize that Polkinghorne is arguably the most important TE of his generation, and draw your own conclusions." I think you just said that and I answered your point. Repetition does not help your case. I, too, invite readers to draw their own conclusions based on the willingness of each parties to submit his respective ideas to scrutiny and answer all challenges.StephenB
May 15, 2012
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Timaeus @167: "But we never see this kind of mutual admonishment and correction among the TEs. Why don’t we?" I have the impression, Timeaus, that you are generally more familiar with TE literature than Stephen is. If so, there is still quite a bit you should read, for TEs disagree with one another all the time. Of dozens of examples, I'll cite just two very good ones. (1) This book by Polkinghorne, which he distinguishes his views on God, nature, and Bible quite clearly from those of Arthur Peacocke and Ian Barbour: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0281049459/starcourse I'm not sure if this is exactly the kind of thing you have in mind, Timeaus, but I think it may be. One of the things that Polkinghorne does often is to look over both shoulders as he writes. He distances himself on the one hand from Peacocke's panentheism (although Polkinghorne believes that the new heaven and earth will be "all within God," this world is not) and Barbour's process theism (I'm constantly amazed when Polkinghorne is said casually to be a process theist); and, on the other hand, from those who believe that we need not re-think any of the traditional Christian conceptions of things. He's right squarely in the middle. Or, borrow a copy of this one: http://www.amazon.com/Belief-Science-Polkinghorne-F-R-S-K-B-E/dp/0300099495 and use the index to locate places where he distances himself from Peacocke and Barbour. (2) This whole set of books, in which TEs from many different disciplines argue about different conceptions of divine action: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Perspectives_on_Divine_ActionTed Davis
May 15, 2012
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lol. Great timing. I see you, Tim, were just discussing that.tragic mishap
May 15, 2012
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Timmy, If Denton accepts the fine-tuning argument then he's automatically an ID theorist. Fine-tuning is a specified complexity argument. Of course, most TEs accept fine-tuning but claim they are not ID theorists because for some reason they think it's valid logic when applied to problems in physics but not in biology. Intelligent design applies the specified complexity logic to everything, seeing it as a generally valid argument for design. Plenty of people accept it for certain things, like fine-tuning, but not for others. This is probably the source of the friction between Denton and most IDers.tragic mishap
May 15, 2012
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I have no more comments for Stephen, since he isn't interested in understanding my ideas; for others, however, let me point to a review I did of one of Polkinghorne's recent books, a review that can be read in just a few minutes: http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2009/07/the-motivated-belief-of-john-polkinghorne I find Polkinghorne's views impossible to square with Stephen's claim that "Faith and reason are perfectly compatible. TEs do not believe this, to their discredit.” Dear reader: do the experiment; read the review; recognize that Polkinghorne is arguably the most important TE of his generation, and draw your own conclusions.Ted Davis
May 15, 2012
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Stephen: I haven't questioned your academic credentials, per se; remember, I know who you are, so I know about your degrees. Just for the record, I don't question your intelligence, either. What I question is your qualifications to write with apparent authority about a topic (TE) on which you by your own admission you have done very limited reading. You're right, Stephen, it's about bibliography: if you haven't read most of the relevant sources, it's hard for me to take your conclusions seriously. If someone came here and offered global conclusions about ID, without having read any books by Dembski, Johnson, Wells, Behe, Denton, or Meyer, I have no doubt you would say that he or she doesn't know enough about ID to have an opinion worth defending. And, you'd be right. It will be many years, Stephen, before I have the kind of time that you seem to have to devote to blogging. I'm sure you know this. I gather that you are probably retired, but I have a day job. You will have this advantage on me for a long time, and there is nothing I can do about that. You will see this simply as ducking your questions and arguments. However, when I do provide a clean and relatively brief summary of my thought about science and religion, including TE, @64, you don't listen to it and engage any of my ideas; rather, you reply by saying that I haven't earned the right to be heard. Well, Stephen I can't make decisions for you about what's worth reading and what isn't. I was responding to this: “Truths provided by God through his Divine revelation are consistent with truths apprehended through God’s revelation in nature. Faith and reason are perfectly compatible. TEs do not believe this, to their discredit." This only confirms for me that either you've never read someone like Polkinghorne, or you didn't understand what you read. And, if you don't bother to listen to my interview, you're not going to understand me, either. You have every right not even to *try* to understand me, Polkinghorne, or any other thinker. We all have that right. But, you don't have the right to make broad pronouncements about a topic that you don't try to understand; bibliography counts. I know you don't agree with this, Stephen, but you aren't the only reader here. Let each reader evaluate my point for herself.Ted Davis
May 15, 2012
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Timaeus @162: I share you low view of the theodicies put forth by Miller and Ayala. I don't regard either of them as a serious TE thinker, though I take both of them very seriously as scientists.Ted Davis
May 15, 2012
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I wrote: "I would be more interested in your arguments explaining how the light beam from a star reputed to be a billion light years away is, in fact, only a few thousand years old." --tjguy: "About starlight, I would suggest reading this article on CMI’s website: “How can distant starlight reach us in just 6,000 years?” At least it will introduce you to two possible answers to this question from a YEC perspective. I will post some of the reasons I believe Genesis should be taken literally in my next post." I have answered your questions without sending you on a reading assignment. Please provide me the same courtesy. If the argument makes sense, it can be summarized. While you are providing your summary, explain why you think the stars in question are "distant." If the universe is only a few thousand years old, then the stars should not be all that far away, unless you think time and distance are not related. If, however, the second point becomes unduly clumsy, ignore it and focus on the first point. I wrote: "Oh yes, and tell me why you do not accept Jesus’ statements that “the Father causes the sun to rise” and why you choose to accept the alternate explanation by scientists to the effect that the earth revolves around the sun." --"I think I already addressed that. Please go back and read what I wrote and if you have questions, come back again to the subject." You did not address it at all. I addressed it by saying that, when Jesus said that "the Father causes the sun to rise," He was consciously using phenomenological and picturesque language in keeping with the common experience of his audience. Do you agree with my assessment? If so, then why do you, as a Biblical literalist, accept science's testimony that the earth revolves around the sun and reject Jesus plain language to the effect that "the sun rises."StephenB
May 15, 2012
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Ted, you may not realize it, but your entire mode of argument is based on your own claims to authority and your subtle, though pathetic, attacks on your adversary's credibility..I understand why you feel the need to do that. When I refute TE nonsense, which is not a particularly daunting task, or when I ask you a hard question, you typically respond by dropping a few names and recounting how many books you have read on the subject. I have never known you to engage anyone in a rigorous, substantive dialogue. You just send that person to a link, tell them to do more reading, and head for the tall grass. On a personal level, you have, for quite a long time, sought to attack my credibility as a means of avoiding argument, I interpret your level of desperation as a compliment and I can sympathize with your frustrations. Since you can provide no rational defense for your position, you change the subject and start obsessing over reading lists--as if you are the final authority about which books should be read--as if I couldn't put you to the same kind of test with my own reading list. It is all a game and I recognize it for what it is. I am trained to recognize games. What you apparently don't understand, Ted, is that one important purpose for reading these offerings is to absorb them and make them a permanent part of your intellectual repertoire so that you can enter into a meaningful debate--not to simply make a public display of your bibliographical references. Since you have raised the issue, though, here is my response: I will put the quality quantity, and relevance of my reading list against your reading list any day. With respect to my credentials, I am trained in the philosophy of religion at the the graduate level and I also hold a graduate degree in applied communication with a 4.0 average. Indeed, my Master's Thesis, as judged by my peers, qualifies as a book. Since ID is an information-based enterprise, and since Theistic Evolution is directly associated with the philosophy of religion and its interface with science, I am qualified to comment on both subjects. That I don't constantly wield my credentials, as you do, doesn't mean that I don't have them. Accordingly, I am not intimidated by anyone who seeks to invalidate my comments by alluding to the fact that I use a psuedoname or that I am vulnerable to being "outed.". It's just more of the same kind of gamesmanship. Such tactics might work with others, but they don't work with me. Enter into the fray--if you dare--that is, if your reading list has equipped you for meaningful dialogue. I have my doubts. One thing I learned a long time ago. When a man cannot summarize an argument in such a way that a twelve-year-old can understand it, he doesn't understand it himself.StephenB
May 15, 2012
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Ted Davis: Good to hear back from you. Your three points about physicists vs. biologists are interesting, and worth thinking about. On the first point, I'm inclined to agree entirely. On the second point, I think the basic observation is sound, and one I never really thought of. It is true that biology -- because it concerns death and suffering -- is the science most likely to connect with "the problem of evil." I wonder, though, about some of the follow-up on that point. Granted, "kenosis" and the crucified God and other theological notions aren't originally inspired by evolutionary theory; and granted, it would be theologically possible to interpret evolutionary theory in the light of such ideas; still, it remains a constant irritant that some TE/EC people who have spoken most loudly about the problem of evil in relation to evolution have spoken the most shallowly. Miller and Ayala have tried to argue that Darwinian evolution "solves" the problem of evil by keeping God at arm's length from actual suffering; it's not God personally, but an impersonal process of random mutation and natural selection, with the resultant "survival for the fittest," which causes all the problems. So they try to vindicate God (which is what "theodicy" means) in light of Darwinian biology, and also, conversely, try to curry theological favor for Darwinian biology because of its helpfulness regarding the problem of evil. The difficulty is that this argument is bad sophomore reasoning that would result in a "C" or "D" essay grade; God's hands can't be kept clean by interposing, between him and the suffering individuals, a process of impersonal evolution -- not when he is by definition omnipotent and omniscient and knew to the last detail all the suffering evolution would cause. When TE proponents say things like this, they lose all credibility as theologians. One thing that might help relations between TE and ID (and between TE and other positions -- YEC and OEC) would be for the deeper to TEs to occasionally publically criticize the shallower TEs. For example, if you and Russell and Polkinghorne were to stand up and say that Miller and Ayala's argument is lousy, both logically and theologically, and that it is their private opinion alone, not the view of TE as such, this would draw attention to the fact that TE is not a monolithic reality, but a loose aggregation of individuals, some of whom are considerably more careful in their thinking than others. But the tendency I have noticed -- on Biologos and elsewhere -- is that where a bunch of TEs are arguing with a bunch of ID people, or with a bunch of creationists, they never air any internal disagreements; they all advance their various theological arguments (whether compatible with each other or not) against the ID/creationist people, and the silence about differences seems, to ID/creationist people, to imply that all the TEs endorse all the theological statements of all the other TEs. So we get a Reformed critique of ID from maybe Haarsma and an Arminian critique from maybe Falk, and the fact that these two perspectives are incompatible is simply passed over. Or we get a critique of ID or creationism from a TE who affirms all the New Testament miracles, and some of the Old Testament miracles, and in the same debate we get a critique of ID or creationism from a Biblical scholar who gives every indication that he's uncomfortable with any miracles at all, and refuses to answer a single question about them in plain, unambiguous English. And nothing ever gets said about the incompatibility of these two TEs' attitudes toward Scripture -- not by the other TEs in the room, anyway. Now if the primary goal of TEs is not to publically humiliate ID people (which, up until Darrel's recent constructive dialogue with Dembski, certainly appeared to be a major goal of BioLogos), but to distinguish truth from falsehood in Christian theology, then we would expect to see open and honest disagreements among TEs, even when ID people are in the room. We'd expect to hear, for example: "Now wait a minute now, I agree that ID has its theological weaknesses, but its emphasis on God's governance of nature is not one of them. In fact, I prefer the ID people's emphasis on God's sovereignty and governance to your Arminian-inspired attempt to liberate nature from God's control." Or: "Hold on, Pete; I agree with you about the literary genre of Genesis 2-3, but not about the Gospels. I take the statement that Jesus walked on the water as biographical. Why are you equivocating on whether or not the event happened?" But we never see this kind of mutual admonishment and correction among the TEs. Why don't we? On your third point, I agree with your description, i.e., that many TEs are persuaded by design arguments in physics but not in biology. The question is whether this discrimination is rational and sustainable. Certainly, at least on the surface, the appearance of design in biology is infinitely *greater* than the appearance of design in physics. We only "see" the "fine-tuning" of the universe after having made very delicate measurements of constants, laws, atomic sizes, etc., and after employing some sophisticated reasoning to get to a design inference; but living things -- they simply look designed. They look designed at the macro-level that everyone can see; the elbow allows the arm to act like a lever, the embryonic development system seems plainly end-driven, etc.; and they look designed even more at the sub-cellular level; with every new discovery, layer upon layer of interactive parts, control mechanisms, etc. are unearthed. How are the biologists to explain these tightly integrated biological systems, where thousands of parts, acting in precise co-ordination, are necessary for a functioning system? By pathetic devices such as: "Well, maybe in times of drought a giraffe who would reach a couple of inches higher ..." That is 19th-century science (more like 19th-century economics, which is where Darwin got the idea). We are in the 21st century. Such crude incremental models of evolution simply cannot be taken seriously any longer. We know too much about the interlocking biochemical systems which constitute living things. We have to be able to explain how these living things are built, if there is no design guiding the construction. And nobody knows how it could be done. Thus, I think the dividing line between physics and biology on the question of design is arbitrary. Again, I would recommend anyone who thinks otherwise to read Denton's book, *Nature's Destiny*. Nature is a seamless whole, and is shot through with design. And it would of course be logically senseless for God to leave nothing to chance when it came to the force of gravity, the heat of the sun, and the amount of water on the earth, but then leave the question whether or not man would emerge to a genomic and environmental crap shoot.Timaeus
May 15, 2012
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Finally, Stephen, I don't need to "earn the right to be read," as you put it @70. In your mind I do, apparently only b/c I won't let you put your own words into my mouth. You see me as evasive, when I simply give my own answers to your questions. More to the point, Stephen, perhaps you need to be convinced that I must "earn the right to be heard," when in fact I've already done that in spades. I know who you are, Stephen, not b/c anyone told me, but b/c you used your own name here many years ago, and I did the rest. You know all this. I'm not going to lift your veil, but I'm going to say that it is you, not me, who must "earn the right to be read," when it comes to issues related to science and religion. You have no peer-reviewed publications about this; you've admitted that you don't read those books about science & religion that don't develop a harmony model (thus dismissing a substantial part of the literature); indeed, it's not at all clear to me that you've read any important TE books at all (though perhaps you have), yet you pretend to know exactly what TE is all about; it's evident that you don't know anything about the development of some of the key notions in science and religion (most recently, the idea of quantum divine action), when understanding those things would sometimes enable you to avoid unsupportable claims. In short, Stephen, although you certainly know a lot about ID, you have *not* earned the right to pontificate about most other topics in science and religion. You haven't done the hard work of trying to *understand* the views of people you don't agree with; instead, you try to define their views for your readers on your own terms, in order to dismiss them or (worse) consign their authors to perdition by effectively calling them "atheists." You simply don't know what you're talking about. This is frank, Stephen, I readily admit. It will probably strike some readers as an arrogant diatribe on my part; if so, I'll have to accept that, but I hope they will consider the context and give me the benefit of the doubt.Ted Davis
May 15, 2012
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Timaeus @67 and Barry @70: I think you're both missing the boat, with regard to the prevalence of physical scientists in the religion/science literature. Nearly all of the top religion/science scholars come out of physics or one of the physical sciences: Polkinghorne, Barbour, Peacocke (the big 3, if you will), Murphy, Paul Davies, Barr, McMullin, ... IMO this results from three factors. First, it's the physical scientists, not the biologists, who deal in their own disciplines with the fundamental properties of matter, with the nature of nature if you will. Physics is the modern form of "natural philosophy," and natural philosophers have often asked deep questions about the existence and nature of nature. It's also far more wide ranging than the biological sciences: everything in the universe is a physical system; fewer things are chemical systems, and only a tiny handful of things (relatively speaking) are biological systems. Second, the biologists are the ones who deal all the time with the "nastiness" of creation, the "dark side" of creation, such as parasitism and virulent micro-organisms. They are the ones who usually face questions of theodicy. Dawkins puts this in very stark terms, for good reasons. IMO, there is simply no hope of answering questions of theodicy without appealing to very specific notions of God, such as Multmann's "Crucified God" (which Polkinghorne says is crucial to his own Christian belief), or Murphy's "theology of the cross," or "divine kenosis." Evolution does not drive those notions, which are driven more by the Holocaust or the Bible or Luther or Bonhoeffer than by biology. But, they are pretty useful for placing evolution in a larger theological framework. Since it is (as I say) the biologists who are confronted with this all the time, it is they (I believe) who are more likely to reject any God entirely. And, as they realize, ID and God can't really be separated, despite loud claims to the contrary. Third, many scientists (of those that discuss design) would say that it's in the physical sciences where design features are most evident, not in biology. This would also be my own answer. [Stephen keeps trying to pin me down on "evolution," but my answer is intentionally phrased in such a way as to put the emphasis on questions about the nature of nature: if you want to ask *me* about design, Stephen, you need to let me offer my own answer(s), not yours. It's fine to disagree with my opinion on this, but it's not fine to restrict a priori how I must answer your question.] It is that type of design inference that tends to avoid being explained by "Darwinian" mechanisms. In other words, Stephen (and others): you should be paying attention to what I'm saying, not trying to force me into your own box(es). I let you speak for yourself; you need to let me speak for myself. At least presently, there is no way to bypass the design questions in cosmology with a *genuinely scientific* multiverse theory--we can't test any of them against observations; indeed, in principle, we won't be able to do so. On this, see yet another physical scientist who believes in God (and also in the bodily resurrection, though it doesn't come up in this article): http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-the-multiverse-really-exist.Ted Davis
May 15, 2012
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Most of all, though, I need a very good answer to the question of why it takes light billions of years to reach us from distant galaxies. Do you have a good argument to show that this perception is false? If not, spare me all your other arguments.
So even if the text argues for a literal interpretation, even if the geological evidence for an old earth is removed, even if the rest of the Bible fits with the young earth interpretation, still you would reject that on the basis of the starlight issue? My take on this is that even if we cannot explain it fully, God’s Word is still correct. Romans 3:4 "By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.” Personally, I don't think God is too concerned about whether or not scientists agree with His Word or not. He will speak the truth and it will be the truth, even if every single human being were to deny it. If He tells us something clearly in His Word, I think believing that is our responsibility. For me it is clear, so that is where I start. I don’t rest my faith on the fallible changing ideas of human scientists whose ideas continually change, but on God’s Word which is unchanging truth. My confidence comes from my strong belief that the Scripture itself demands a literal interpretation of Genesis 1.
“It is more important to avoid a heresy because that will affect our salvation. I don’t think our salvation depends on our conceptions about the age of the universe.”
This is true, but I think the OEC position can actually undermine salvation by teaching that death, disease, suffering, bloodshed, etc. all were a part of God’s original creation. If so, it means that these things were not the result of sin like the Bible tells us. I assume you believe Adam was a literal person, but not all OECers do. Compromising on the time issue often leads to other compromises for many people.
–”Perhaps in a later post I can share the reasons I think this passage demands to be taken literally and what principles of hermeneutics YECs use when approaching Scripture. It is not the wooden literalism that seem to insinuate that we use – ie we view the whole Bible as nothing more than historical narrative.”
I would be more interested in your arguments explaining how the light beam from a star reputed to be a billion light years away is, in fact, only a few thousand years old.
Like I told you, I start with God’s Word and work from there. I’m not surprised that you are more interested in that because you seem to place greater emphasis on what evolutionary historical science tells us than on the plain meaning of the Bible itself. For me, I’m more interested in what the text says and then worry about the science part of it later. This is why we arrive at different conclusions concerning the age of the earth. Our approach is different. I don’t know if you are interested or not, but if so, please read the article on CMI’s website entitled Age of the Earth. It gives 101 evidences of a young earth as interpreted through a young earth framework. Perhaps an OECer would see some of the evidences differently as interpreted through their framework, I don’t know. Might be interesting. At least it will give you an idea of some of the scientific reasons that help to support our faith in God’s Word. About starlight, I would suggest reading this article on CMI’s website: “How can distant starlight reach us in just 6,000 years?” At least it will introduce you to two possible answers to this question from a YEC perspective. I will post some of the reasons I believe Genesis should be taken literally in my next post.
Oh yes, and tell me why you do not accept Jesus’ statements that “the Father causes the sun to rise” and why you choose to accept the alternate explanation by scientists to the effect that the earth revolves around the sun.
I think I already addressed that. Please go back and read what I wrote and if you have questions, come back again to the subject.tjguy
May 15, 2012
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You may be right(about the importance of time in Gen 1). I am not dead set against YEC or a 6 day creation. I just happen to think that the author had bigger fish to fry for reasons I mentioned above (anticipating the heresies of pantheism, manicheism, Gnosticism, and a number of other potential errors I have not mentioned.
Why do you limit it to those heresies? Couldn’t He also have wanted to make a statement against evolution here? After all, evolution demands huge amounts of time to be viable. If we go with a young earth, evolution is automatically falsified. SO I would add evolution to the list of heresies that chapter 1 deals with. It has done a lot of harm to Christianity and led many a believer astray.
–”Your whole argument here is based on this arbitrary assertion that the author only had one simple intention.” —”You don’t think that God is capable of communicating more than one point through a passage of Scripture I’m sure.”
No, I didn’t say that. I said that he was more concerned about some things than others, and I was very careful to point out which things I think are more important. You are putting words in my mouth. Please don’t do that. God can write on several levels and usually does.
I’m sorry. That is how I understood what you wrote. I was just quoting what you said: “How much time was involved in the process is a far less important point and you can’t expect the author, who had one intention, namely an argument supplemented by an incomplete historical account, to provide a time-table description that would be reminiscent of another kind of intention.”
—”I’m sure you must have some evidence to back it up or you wouldn’t take such an unorthodox position. I’m just curious as to what that is.”
Well, if it is a salvation issue or a heresy issue, I pay no attention whatsoever to claims made or outside of Scripture. But if it is on matters less important, I allow input from science [albeit fair science, not partisan science] to shape my opinion.
I still don’t see your evidence for stating that the author had one intention. OK, I find it interesting that on matters of salvation or heresy, you ignore outside sources, but when it comes to “matters of less importance”, you give science preference to God’s Word. In some ways, I understand that thinking, but to be honest, I don’t find the distinction in the Bible. The whole Bible either is or is not God’s Word. It either is God’s truth or it is not. You seem to make an arbitrary distinction here that God does not make. Given our status as humans who are hard pressed to be correct 100% of the time, I understand what you are saying, but I personally still have trouble with giving science that kind of authority.
Since I think the evidence is good for a 13 billion year old universe, and since Biblical authors sometimes write in different genres, I weigh all those elements and conclude (for now) that the author of Genesis was not referring to 24 hour days. If I knew that Genesis was, strictly speaking, a historical document IN EVERY WAY, or if uniformatarianism was shown to be false, I would likely abandon my position and become a YEC. My attitude on this matter is provisional.
Granted, there is some evidence for an old earth universe, but I think there is also evidence for a young universe as well. I think that much of what you refer to as evidence for an old universe is evidence mainly because of the OEC interpretation of the observations. Don’t forget they absolutely must have an old universe to keep their beliefs afloat. They have no other option so they look to interpret everything they see through that paradigm. Either side has anomalies that are difficult to explain. There are lots of problems with an old earth universe for instance, in cosmology. There is a light time travel problem with the Big Bang too. There are planets & moons that still have volcanic activity that should have been dead long ago(Pluto’s moon Charon, Enceladus, etc) There are planets with rings that should have disappeared eons ago. There are comets that should have disappeared eons ago so they save themselves by positing the existence of an Oort Cloud(Might as well posit God or a Flying Spaghetti Monster as the source for the comets if they do that.) These observations and others do not fit the theory, so ad hoc explanations/just so stories are invented to save their theory. Could it be that you are placing too much faith in the ability of humans to properly interpret their observations and discern truths about the distant past which they cannot observe? Uniformitarianism is easily falsified. How? By the fact of a global flood. The flood shows that you cannot just assume uniformitarianism and expect to come up with an accurate understanding of the past. The flood destroys the evidence for an old earth as far as geology goes. It destroys the evidence for evolution as the fossils would be rather recent. It shows that most dating methods are way off when it comes to discerning the age of the rocks. David Coppedge of Creation Evolution Headlines has 2 good recent articles that shed more light on the problems of uniformitarianism called Earth myths and rapid undersea geology. Following the whole thread labelled dating methods might be an interesting read.tjguy
May 15, 2012
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StephenB @ 147,
God’s immanence refers to his presence “inside” His creatures or creation. God’s transcendence is reflected insofar as He is communicating with Adam and Eve from the outside. His immanence is reflected in Adam and Eve’s powers of reason and volition, which reflects the power of God operating inside a human being. Remember, immanence refers to God as He exists “inside” his creation.
OK, well, I see The LORD God active in his creation here as well. He formed Man(Adam) from the dust of the ground. He could have done that from far away by command I guess. He took a rib from Adam and created Eve. Perhaps this too could have been accomplished from far away by command. But the clincher for me is Genesis 3:8. “they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.” My inference would then be that the commands He gave to them were not given from far away, but that God spoke with Adam previously in this same way He spoke to them here. They had fellowship together at that point because there was not yet any sin separating them. So I don’t agree with your conclusion that the creation account only shows his transcendence, but actually, I don’t see what that has to do with how we interpret the passage. And I still don’t see any support from the text that this one point is the author’s main point. Sure God is transcendent, but more than that, God is the Creator with a perfect plan who carefully designed and created the universe. We see that God speaks with power and authority. He created with His Word - Jesus is the Word of God. He is personal and He can communicate. Very important for people who do not believe in a personal God. He even tells us that He created them according to their kinds - that the animals were originally vegetarian. We see the special creation of man which is extremely important in understand the difference between humans and all other creatures. He gives man a job – to rule/take care of the earth and fill the earth. He created a special place for them to live. Then we have the foundational teaching on marriage in 2:24. This leads into the fall and is a major doctrine of Scripture from which our need for salvation is derived. If there was no literal Fall, we are not born into sin and the Bible is teaching falsehood(I'm not implying that you believe that by the way.)Anyway, because it concerns our salvation, these had to be literal physical events. I agree with you about your point of God’s transcendence, but I just think there is a lot lot more there and I’m not sure I would say that God’s transcendence is THE major point the author is trying to get across here. If you have any evidence for that outside of someone's opinion, I'm open to considering that.
—”I take the “very good” idea to mean that there was no death, no carnivory, no suffering, and no disease in God’s original “very good” creation, because these things would never be said to be “very good” by God.”
The term “very good” is also meant to assure us that ALL of God’s creation is good, both spirit (soul) and matter (body). It anticipates the error of Manicheism and Gnosticism, the heresies which declared that spirit is good and matter is bad.
I agree. It anticipates those two heresies as well as any teaching that doesn’t agree with this Scriptural truth that God’s creation was “very good”. But I’m glad you understand that it does also deny death, carnivory, suffering, and disease. This is a key point that many OECs miss. This also has implications for how old the fossils could be.tjguy
May 15, 2012
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Timaeus Blue sky thinking here on a theocentric, teleological natural creation. Supposing God likes to keep hands on, as per our last two posts? Not interference, mind - it's continuous creation in the Biblical sense of both sustaining and government, his normal mechanism of providence in both the natural and human worlds. It may well (in Russell's version) be completely within natural law - what is actually being inputed is continuous information, which natural science isn't even currently interested in. Yet the evidence shows signs of descent with modification over aeons (or at the very least modification with variation), rather than special de-novo creation in the pre-Darwinian manner. Can one suggest why that would be a good way to work? What about the underlying methodology of the Genesis account (though I go with Walton that it's a functional, not a material, account of origins), ie the progressive moulding of chaos into order? So he chooses the end point, creates brute matter/energy/time at the Big Bang, and progressively terraforms matter (to use Mike Gene's phrase) into the shape that matches his "final" purpose*. That order includes natural law, so that comes into it as part, but not the whole, plan. There could be a few reasons for doing it in time, rather than instantly (let's help Augustine out here!): one would be to demonstrate (to us and the angels, I guess) his wise ordering of things from raw materials. Another might be that having chosen to put mankind into a world working towards a historical endpoint, it makes sense to project that back to a simple start-point even before mankind arrives on the scene. A third would be that our discovery of "endless forms most beautiful" in the past is material for worship - which is our job here, after all. *I'm viewing "final" here as the point at which man appears to appreciate what's going on - in fact God has a final, final purpose to which everything is still headed.Jon Garvey
May 15, 2012
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tragic: Just a footnote to one of your remarks: "Denton would be no different than a TE at that point, slapping intelligence onto a scenario that doesn’t need it." This is incorrect. Denton's scenario absolutely requires intelligence, as explained above. But to focus on the comparison with TEs, I offer the following. The main differences between Denton and most TEs (virtually all BioLogos TEs, most of the ASA-TEs, and others) are: 1. Denton does not evade discussing the role of God in evolution: he specifies exactly what God does. Most TEs, on the other hand, routinely avoid the question, or equivocate, or obfuscate, or change the subject. The recent slipperiness of Falk and Venema in response to Crude, and of Falk in response to Jon Garvey, are just two examples of the general pattern which ID people have observed for as long as they've read and debated with the leading TEs. 2. In Denton's theory, God (not necessarily the Biblical God, but at least an intelligent designer with Divine powers) is absolutely necessary to make the whole account work. In most versions of TE, on the other hand, God is an optional and gratuitous explanation, above and beyond the scientific explanation. Belief in creation is a private faith statement which has nothing to do with the publically accessible truths of science, a religious gloss which the scientist, if a believer, can choose to put on top of his wholly naturalistic account of origins. The naturalistic explanation of origins would be complete and intellectually satisfying without the reference to God. The invocation of God is to indicate the piety of the scientist, not to explain anything about nature. In contrast, Denton, not being a Christian, is not concerned to make a public show of his piety; he is concerned only to explain what he, as a scientist, sees in nature. And what he sees requires God as part of the explanation. 3. Connected with this, most TEs are openly or subtly hostile to natural theology, whereas Denton makes clear that his researches, though not originally begun with that intention, constitute a modern argument for natural theology. 4. TEs are generally rabidly pro-Darwin; their evolutionary biology is generally mid-20th-century neo-Darwinism. Denton's book completely trashes Darwinian explanation, replacing chance and randomness by necessity and fine-tuning. These are very significant differences. If any further confirmation is needed, the TEs generally either don't like Denton, or, if they read him or hear about his ideas, react with near-complete non-interest. If he was close to their own position, as you imply, they would be loudly applauding him. Yet there hasn't been a single column about his work on BioLogos in the five years of its existence, and the only times he has been mentioned there the comments have come from ID supporters. The explanation is not far to seek: the biologists at BioLogos are not going to approve of anyone who questions St. Darwin, and the general theological orientation at BioLogos (and throughout most of TE-dom, though there are a few exceptions) is fideist, and Denton's connection of science and theology (from nature to God via fine-tuning) is, to a fideist, taboo. So no, Denton's approach is almost nothing like any TE approach known to me. The only similarities (that he accepts macroevolution, and a naturalistic delivery system for it) are overwhelmed by the crucial differences in both science and theology.Timaeus
May 14, 2012
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tragic mishap: Briefly: 1. "The problem that ID would have with Denton's scenario" is not correctly expressed, since Denton is an ID proponent, not someone outside of ID. The correct expression would be: "The problem that *many ID proponents* would have with Denton's ID scenario" I've made this point in two or three different ways over the course of our conversation; this is the last time I'll make it. 2. On the more substantive theoretical question that you raise: a. Denton never says or implies that "intelligent input is not necessary"; what he says is that all the intelligent input is put into the universe at t=0, and that no *new* intelligent input is needed after that. This is again clearly understandable in computer science terms. One writes a program, and then runs it, and it outputs its result. One doesn't write a program, start running it, then, while it is still running, hurriedly write new code, and jam the new lines of code into the computer in the middle of the operation. The code originally written has to be sufficient to produce the output. And the code as originally written is certainly the product of "intelligence" and therefore "intelligent input." Denton's scenario of course implies that nature, set up the way that he imagines it to have been set up, *could* produce new information. One can argue that Denton is wrong, i.e., that *no* set of natural laws and constants, no matter how cleverly calibrated, even by an infinitely powerful mind, could ever establish a self-evolving universe in which new biological information is constantly being added, turning bacteria into man. One could argue that new information would have to be input at a number of points. That's what Dembski et al. have argued. But this is *an internal quarrel among ID theorists*, not, as you have been mischaracterizing it, as "ID vs. Denton." b. As to your question "Where's the need for intelligence?" I can't understand how you can possibly ask that, when the answer is blindingly obvious. Without the designer's intelligence to set the initial laws and parameters, nature would never have the power to produce stars, planets, oxygen atmospheres, macromolecules, cells, multicellular life, all the way up to man. Denton's scheme rests *entirely* on the premise of intelligence -- the mind of the designer must be able to see ahead a billion trillion times further than the most advanced supercomputer we have yet devised. He must be able to predict the whole cascade of efficient causes for a colossal number of variables, and determine that only settings X and Y and Z at the beginning will be able to produce Man as the output. If that isn't "intelligent design" I don't know what the h*** intelligent design is. I'm now ending my side of this conversation. There is nothing I can add that wouldn't be repeating myself. But I strongly recommend that you read *Nature's Destiny*. Even if you completely reject the evolutionary scenario of Part II (which as a YEC you will), the argument for fine-tuning in Part I is something that any creationist could embrace, and is worth the price of the book by itself.Timaeus
May 14, 2012
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Fair enough, Timaeus. The problem that ID would have with Denton's scenario (if he really means that the algorithm/nature itself can generate information) is that it can easily be hijacked by those wishing to show that the system can create new information without intelligence. In other words if the system itself can produce information, where's the need for intelligence? Denton would be no different than a TE at that point, slapping intelligence onto a scenario that doesn't need it. If the intelligent input is not necessary, then many will begin to point that out. At which point the view will no longer be intelligent design theory because it requires no intelligent design.tragic mishap
May 14, 2012
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Barry Arrington 150 JGuy, if there were scientific evidence for a young earth then those who hold an old earth position would obviously have to try to explain that. I do not know whether the matters you pointed to count as evidence of a young earth, or, if they do, how mainstream scientists would explain them. YECs will always say the Bible is the best evidence. The flood is rarely taken into account in OEC dating assumptions. AIG has published quite a bit on evidence for young earth. You can find an introducion here and more here.bevets
May 14, 2012
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Jon Garvey (149): Good points. I'll focus here only on your comment on Russell. I haven't read enough of Russell to discern how often he thinks the quantum-level interference happens. If he thinks that God employs such interference only rarely, say, only at the Cambrian Explosion, and to create life, and to make some special change in some hominid to make it human, then his idea would fall under my first alternative. But if he envisions it as an ongoing process, continuous or nearly so, then it would be a different kind of thing. If God is playing around at the quantum level almost moment by moment, then the image we would have is not of Darwinian evolution moving along mostly by itself, with occasional "corrections" from On High to put it back on its course toward man. God's involvement would be so thorough and constant that we could no longer think of the process as "basically Darwinian, but with some assistance." It really wouldn't be a Darwinian process at all, but a steadily guided process. Natural selection might still operate, but the mutations would be so carefully prepared by an intelligent agent that neither Darwin nor any of the neo-Darwinians would call this a natural process or even a slightly modified natural process. Even if the interference was indetectable by the instruments of science, so that the mutations looked "random," it would still be cheating, they would say, to offer this as a scientific explanation of the origin of species, because the real driver is not nature, but God. That said, if we for the moment forget about whether the Darwinians would approve of Russell's solution, and think about it theologically, it might well be a more Biblical and traditionally orthodox way of thinking about creation than either of the other positions mentioned. The "nature can create most everything new by itself, with just an occasional assist from God" position (Darwinism plus the odd miracle) doesn't feel Biblical or traditional at all. In the Bible every major category of creation -- plants, sea creatures, birds, land animals, man, firmament, stars, etc. -- is pictured as a special creation of God. Sometimes even particular creatures are given particular foods by God, as in Job. And the "programmed evolution" model seems to leave God with very little to do by way of creative interaction, which again seems not in tune with the Biblical way of thinking about things. The Biblical way of thinking about things involves a dynamic interaction between God and creation -- not just in the case of Biblical miracles (as BioLogos would have it) -- but from the start of Creation onward. Russell's view perhaps can be harmonized with the Biblical view better than the others I've mentioned. I'll have to have a look at him again sometime.Timaeus
May 14, 2012
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JGuy, if there were scientific evidence for a young earth then those who hold an old earth position would obviously have to try to explain that. I do not know whether the matters you pointed to count as evidence of a young earth, or, if they do, how mainstream scientists would explain them.Barry Arrington
May 14, 2012
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