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Mark Frank poses an interesting thought experiment on free will

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In a comment on kairosfocus’ latest excellent post, Does ID ASSUME “contra-causal free will” and “intelligence” (and so injects questionable “assumptions”)?, Mark Frank proposes a thought experiment in support of his view that determinism is fully compatible with free will. It goes as follows:

Start with a dog. Dogs make choices in the sense that they may accept or reject a treat, may obey or disobey an order, may chase a rabbit or not. Suppose we advance our understanding of dogs’ brains and thought processes so that a genius vet can predict with 100% accuracy how a dog will choose in any given situation given its past history and current circumstances. Surely this is conceivable? If we manage this do we now say that dogs are making real choices? If it they are real choices then this is compatibilism in action. So I guess, in these circumstances, you would say that we have shown they do not really have free will.

Now extend it to infants – say two year olds. They make choices – eat or don’t eat, cry or don’t cry, hug or don’t hug. So let’s imagine we repeat the process with them. A genius paediatrician in this case (maybe you one day!). Are the infants also lacking free will? Either compatabilism is true or they haven’t got free will.

OK. Now apply it to an adult human. If it is conceivable for a dog and an infant then surely it is conceivable for an adult. A genius psychologist observes an adult and is able to predict all their decisions and explain why – exactly how each decision is determined by their genetics, personal history and current environment (it doesn’t have to be a materialist explanation). Has that adult got free will? Either compatabilism is true or they haven’t got free will.

And finally apply to yourself. Suppose it turns out a genius psychologist has been monitoring you all your life and has been able to correctly predict all your decisions and also how the decision making process worked in detail – how your different motivations were balanced and interacted with your perceptions and memories resulting in each decision (including any dithering and worrying about whether you got it right). Would that mean you thought you had free will but actually didn’t? Either compatabilism is true or you haven’t got free will.

As my computer is currently kaput, this will be a very short post. I’d like to suggest that what Mark Frank has left out of the equation is language, the capacity for which is what differentiates us from other animals. (Human infants possess this capacity but do not yet exercise it, partly because their brains, when they are newborn, are still too immature for language production, and also because they have yet to build up a linguistic databank that would enable them to express what they want to get across.)

Language is central to human rationality because rationality is not just a matter of selecting the appropriate means to realize a desired end: it is also a critical activity, in which agents are expected to be able to justify their choices and respond to questions like “Why did you do that?” People don’t just act rationally; they give reasons for their actions. In order to do that, you need a language in which you can generate an indefinitely large number of sentences, as the range of possible situations in which you might find yourself is potentially infinite – particularly when we factor in the little complicating circumstances that may arise.

What is distinctive about human language, as opposed to animal “language,” is precisely this ability to generate an infinite number of sentences. This uniquely human ability was the subject of a recent article in the Washington Post titled, Chirps, whistles, clicks: Do any animals have a true ‘language’?, which was discussed in a recent post by News (emphases are mine – VJT):

A new study on animal calls has found that the patterns of barks, whistles, and clicks from seven different species appear to be more complex than previously thought. The researchers used mathematical tests to see how well the sequences of sounds fit to models ranging in complexity…

“We’re still a very, very long way from understanding this transition from animal communication to human language, and it’s a huge mystery at the moment,” said study author and zoologist Arik Kershenbaum, who did the work at the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis…

“What makes human language special is that there’s no finite limit as to what comes next,” he said….

But what separates language from communication? Why can’t we assume that whales, with their elaborate songs, are simply speaking “whale-ese”?

To be considered a true language, there are a few elements that are usually considered to be essential, says Kershenbaum. For one, it must be learned rather than instinctive — both whales and birds have this piece covered. For instance, killer whale calves learn a repertoire of calls from their mothers, and the sounds gradually evolve from erratic screams to adult-like pulsed calls and whistles.

What holds whales and other animals back from language is that there is a limit to what they can express. There are only so many calls that each may convey different emotions, but only we have an unlimited ability to express abstract ideas.

The problem for scientists is that no one knows how language evolved. Oddly enough, there don’t seem to be any transitional proto-languages between whale and bird songs — said to be the most sophisticated animal calls — and our own speech.

There are two conflicting theories of how language evolved in humans. The first is that human language evolved slowly and gradually, just as most traits evolved in the animal world. So perhaps it started with gestures, and then words and sentences. Or language may have started out more like bird song — with complex but meaningless sounds — and the last stage was attaching meaning to these sounds.

Reading the last paragraph in the passage quoted above brings to mind Nobel Laureate John Eccles’ derisive remarks about “promissory materialism.” The fact is that scientists haven’t got a clue how language evolved – and for a very good reason. The gap between the law-governed deterministic processes we observe in Nature and the infinite flexibility of human language is an unbridgeable one.

That is why no psychologist could ever, even in principle, predict everything that a rational adult human being will think, say and do. Language, which is fundamentally unpredictable, is part of the warp-and-woof of human life. Hence the antecedent in Mark Frank’s thought experiment – “What if a psychologist could predict every decision that you make?” – is impossible, by definition.

Back in 1957, behaviorist B. F. Skinner wrote a best-selling book with the amusing title, Verbal Behavior. I hope readers can see now why language is much more than mere behavior.

Thoughts?

Comments
oops. I meant JDH@68JDH
September 2, 2014
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Dionisio @ 90 - see JDH @65JDH
September 2, 2014
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Axel What does the expression "furren names" mean?Dionisio
September 2, 2014
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Axel, Sorry for what?Dionisio
September 2, 2014
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Sorry, Dionisio Areopagitatis. I seem to be getting you and GP, muddled up here. It's they furren names you two have gotten.Axel
September 2, 2014
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gpuccio #43, thank you for responding. Your thoughts are very well presented. If I am reading your response correctly (and I apologize in advance if I am not). a) and b) I don't have any argument with. For c)
...the widespread idea that consciousness and its processes can and should be explained in terms of arrangements of physical objects is in itself a philosophy, not a scientific idea.
I would disagree that it is not scientific. I would reword it that 'there is no evidence to suggest that it cannot be explained in terms of physical objects (i.e., structure and chemistry).' This inference is based on the extensive studies that have been performed on brain chemistry and brain injuries/strokes/dementia, etc. But I also wouldn't say that we 'shouldn't' examine it from other perspectives. If I get your meaning, I think that d) works for both approaches. e)
That includes studying the consciousness-matter interface for what it empirically is (an interface), and not with the unwarranted assumption that consciousness arises from matter.
I think that this is a phyliosophy that is not scientifically based. You are inferring that consciousness does not arise from matter when there is absolutely no evidence to make this conclusion. And as suggested above, we know that we can destroy and/or interrupt consciousness through manipulations of the brain (i.e., matter), therefore, the logical inference is that it likely arises from matter. But again, I am not saying that we should limit our studies to this, only that we should not exclude it. f) and g) are presupposing a designer, which is putting the cart before the horse. h) I completely agree. Again, thank you for responding honestly and respectfully without resorting to sarcasm and insults. It is refreshing.Acartia_bogart
September 2, 2014
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Axel Expressing desire to consider or think (something) out carefully and thoroughly?Dionisio
September 2, 2014
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wouldn't it be nice to edit the comments after they have been submitted or at least to turn off the type-ahead autocorrect feature, which sometimes is kind of annoying? Corpus callosumDionisio
September 2, 2014
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Or, rather, 'desideratively excogitative (inferential cognition)?Axel
September 2, 2014
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JDH
but do have discussions about things like. ” Suppose a person has had there carpus callosum surgically cut…”
their corpus callous?Dionisio
September 2, 2014
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You mean, 'desiderative excogitation', GP? I'm currently musing on the elegance or otherwise of 'inferential cogniteratum', which does present a certain parsimony, but on the other hand, it could be stretching the latin beyond a point where parsimony could even be a consideration. Or considerative, as the case may be.Axel
September 2, 2014
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Interesting comments from Mark Frank:
It is quite reasonable to investigate this by asking how we would react to situations that are logically possible although physically impossible.
I did not claim is was reasonable. I claimed it was conceivable – quite a different thing. (I didn’t even call it a thought experiment – that was VJ). It was simply an exploration of when we might use the term free will and when we might not. The physical impossibility of it is irrelevant as are underlying assumptions. I have exhausted all the ways I can think of explaining this and am going to stop the discussion here.
Mark, Please, we have no use for "If pigs could fly..." speculations here. It is a waste of time to consider something which is physically impossible even if we want to just "ask how we would react to it". Because no one obviously would ever react to it. It is, as the great philosopher John Cleese would put it pointless. That is why we don't have discussions on this board which start with statements like "Suppose I all of the sudden had two heads...", but do have discussions about things like. " Suppose a person has had there carpus callosum surgically cut..." It is pointless to describe a "never can ever happen event" and then have a meaningful "exploration of when we might use the term free will and when we might not." Exploration of space which can never occur does not lead to the discovery of truth. I would like to clarify, that truth can be gathered from discussion about possible things that we would certainly never do like, "Suppose we passed a law making being left-handed illegal...". It is also true that quantifiable physical information can be gleaned from relaxing constraints that complicates a problem too much, "Suppose that these wires have absolutely no resistance." Of course all information gathered from that speculation, must include an estimate of how much the incorrect information changes the answer. I also want to clarify that it is also useful to consider situations which direct human observation is impossible. "Suppose a space probe was sent directly into the sun." I also want to clarify that it is also useful to consider situations where someone lies to us... "Suppose a person was tricked into believing that his vet was a genius and could predict 100% of his dog's choices" But ... It is impossible to logically prove philosophical truth if you start with an assumption which can never happen. You can discover philosophical truth about another theoretical world where your assumption is possible, but if you start with an impossible assumption, your entire argument is ALWAYS pointless because it proves absolutely nothing. I am sorry to be so blunt, but I think you recognize this as true and are being intellectually dishonest here. You realize that, "...the physical impossibility of it is..." not only relevant, but if true, makes any further discussion pointless. And if you still do not get this, I am willing to try again. It is my own opinion, that it will take you running into a few walls like this to ever be able to conclude that compatibilism does not work in this world. I know that is a slightly arrogant statement because many intelligent people have professed some form of compatibilism. I think that they have all been very clever at avoiding the issues that prove their assumptions to be logically inconsistent. I am hoping that you are brave enough to dispense with impossible beliefs. It prevents the discovery of truth.JDH
September 2, 2014
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Axel, But don't forget the important qualifier 'wishful' that gpuccio added to the term 'Inferential cognition’ in this case :)Dionisio
September 2, 2014
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'Strings theory and multiverse theory? Maybe wishful inferential cognition. :)' It sounds more like 'cat's cradle technique and epic poetry,' to me. But I'm lowering the tone. 'Inferential cognition' sure sounds much grander.Axel
September 2, 2014
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KF: same question as I proposed to VJT: Have you thought about how you make a decision ?Graham2
September 2, 2014
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KF Interesting explanation. Thank you. If someone (A) decides to love (agape) another person (B), who by all worldly standards is not lovable, is that decision (which implies a commitment) associated with free will? (in this case A's).Dionisio
September 2, 2014
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D: Responsible freedom boils down to, our ability to choose, reason etc are not determined by forces external to (and undermining of) the task in hand so that the sense of choosing is delusional. That is, when we make a rational choice, it is not blind mechanical cause-effect and chance statistics rooted in molecular motions, nor is it inevitably psycho-social conditioning adversely affecting our reason at individual class or other scales, nor is it strictness of potty training etc. This is a case of rejecting the grand delusion fallacy, which undermines reasoning, warrant, knowledge, morality, liberty and the value of the human being. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2014
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Mung, given heat transfer on temp difference and a defined quantity S that characterises it, the clausius form of lex 2 th is a direct algebraic consequence, as I clip App I my always linked note: >> a] Clausius is the founder of the 2nd law, and the first standard example of an isolated system -- one that allows neither energy nor matter to flow in or out -- is instructive, given the "closed" subsystems [i.e. allowing energy to pass in or out] in it. Pardon the substitute for a real diagram, for now: Isol System: | | (A, at Thot) --> d'Q, heat --> (B, at T cold) | | b] Now, we introduce entropy change dS >/= d'Q/T . . . "Eqn" A.1 c] So, dSa >/= -d'Q/Th, and dSb >/= +d'Q/Tc, where Th > Tc d] That is, for system, dStot >/= dSa + dSb >/= 0, as Th > Tc . . . "Eqn" A.2 e] But, observe: the subsystems A and B are open to energy inflows and outflows, and the entropy of B RISES DUE TO THE IMPORTATION OF RAW ENERGY. f] The key point is that when raw energy enters a body, it tends to make its entropy rise. >> The statistical interpretation on number of ways to arrange mass and energy at micro levels consistent with a macro-observable thermodynamic state [which points to the chain of required y/n q's to specify that microstate as defining entropy on an info basis . . . ] leads to the well known result of overwhelming tendency to move to the dominant cluster, absent constraints. The first law is an empirical generalisation that has proved pivotal in properly understanding the world. Recall, that there WAS a change, formerly mass was also thought to be conserved, now we see that rest mass is translatable into energy, and it is energy that is conserved. The third law is a further statistically grounded analysis, that shows why refrigeration cycles can only approach 0 K. The zeroth law defines an equivalence relation that effectively defines equality of temperatures. Are these "proved"? No more and no less than any empirically grounded result. JDH is right to highlight Einstein's Energy-Time uncertainty form of Heisenberg's principle. The Planck constant sets a fundamental uncertainty in physical values that is tied to the time scale of processes, and in the position-momentum form, to location and predictability of path. Thought exercises in physics are pivotal, ever since Galileo. Indeed, he observed that balls rolling in a U-trough tried to reach back to original height. So, move to a frictionless U and extend the bottom indefinitely. (I skip a historical stage . . . ) The law of inertia, that bodies tend to continue in uniform straight line motion unless externally constrained, drops out. (Rest is a special case . . . and it turns out "at rest" is relative to an observer's inertial frame of reference.) And of course, the law of inertia reflects energy conservation as well as momentum conservation. ("Motion" is an old term for momentum, quantity of motion. Force acting through time accumulates momentum, through space, work.) And so forth. KF PS: That lock-up in inappropriate incorrect Captcha is there again.kairosfocus
September 2, 2014
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#79 RalphDavidWestfall Actually, does anyone know what 'free will' really means?Dionisio
September 2, 2014
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#79 RalphDavidWestfall Thank you for your interesting commentary. I would like to comment on this, but first got a couple of questions that perhaps you could help me clarify: What does that phrase “Calvinist robots” mean? What does that phrase "Calvinism is part of Christianity" mean? IOW, is Calvin mentioned in the Christian scriptures? Thank you.Dionisio
September 2, 2014
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Dionisio @ 6 I saw an atheist posting in an online forum and replied that naturalism implies that everything happens by external causes, so that atheists who are committed to naturalism (as most are) would have to believe they did not have free will. I mentioned that prominent atheists such as Michael Shermer, Jerry Coyne and Sam Harris have argued on the basis of naturalism that humans don't have free will. Harris even wrote a book entitled Free Will, to show why he believes that humans don't have it. I concluded by asking the atheist if he was a robot. The atheist thought he had a clever answer. He asked me about "Calvinist robots." He may have thought that he'd gotten me, that as a Christian I either would have to defend Calvinism because it's part of Christianity or shut up. However that didn't work. My reply was that neither Calvinists nor atheistic naturalists liked to be reminded about how very close to each other their positions on free will are. And he had no response.RalphDavidWestfall
September 2, 2014
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JDH
The start of your thought experiment was the claim that it was reasonable that we could learn enough about the inner workings of a dog brain such that a genius vet could be 100% sure that he would be able to predict the dogs behavior. You assume that to be a likely possibility. But it is pure speculation. So I just ran with a few or your assumptions.
I did not claim is was reasonable. I claimed it was conceivable - quite a different thing. (I didn't even call it a thought experiment - that was VJ). It was simply an exploration of when we might use the term free will and when we might not. The physical impossibility of it is irrelevant as are underlying assumptions. I have exhausted all the ways I can think of explaining this and am going to stop the discussion here.Mark Frank
September 1, 2014
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VJT: Im interested to get your reaction here: I know you claim we have free will, and can therefore choose whatever we want, but eventually we have to choose something. If we are to choose, say between A & B, and we choose (say) A, then how did we make the choice ? By throwing a dart ? By applying a criterion ? How do you think we do it. ? Also, do you think the final decision is made in our brain ? In a 'mind' ? In our soul ?Graham2
September 1, 2014
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Mark, The start of your thought experiment was the claim that it was reasonable that we could learn enough about the inner workings of a dog brain such that a genius vet could be 100% sure that he would be able to predict the dogs behavior. You assume that to be a likely possibility. But it is pure speculation. So I just ran with a few or your assumptions. 1. I assume from past discussions that you are a materialist. ( Really, sorry if this is wrong, it kind of defeats all my arguments if you are not arguing from a materialist point of view. The rest of this post continues to assume you are a materialist. ). Since you are a materialist, your thought experiments HAVE to conform to a materialistic point of view, even if you are arguing a philosophical point. You cannot consider options where there are violations of the laws of physics because your initial assumption of materialism forbids it. I was just showing that under the assumption of materialism, it was illogical to assume we could ever be able to analyze a dog's brain enough to 100% predict the dog's choices based on the state of his brain. The size of the data set needed to do a thorough analysis of the state of the dog's brain is such that you could not nail down the data in the time that it would change. I do not think a thought experiment which starts with an unproven, and what I think is illogical speculation proves anything.JDH
September 1, 2014
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SA #69
If I discovered that either case was true, I would know, with certainty, that I do not have free will. Thinking my actions were freely chosen would be an illusion. So, I don’t agree that free will and determinism could be compatible, in reality. Yes, the illusion of each is compatible with each other. I can imagine I am free while I am, in reality determined. I can imagine I am being controlled by an external agent while I am really free. But to truly be free while having been programmed in advance for every possible action? Obviously, that’s not compatible.
I don’t find that at all obvious, especially if you allow for determined to include determined plus random. The word programmed is misleading because that implies some other body planning what you are to do. If you substitute predictable then it becomes more palatable and if you then add with possibly an unpredictable element very palatable. But I guess it is a question of how you define free will.
Could you explain that further? Yes, “it is unpredictable” from outside. Of course, I can predict within myself how I will freely choose something.
Are you sure? I can’t predict what I am going to choose in many situations.
Yes, it’s possible that everything is an illusion. It’s possible that the world began to exist one minute ago. We can’t prove or refute it. But I think we look for common human experience to try to make sense of things. I have no good reason to reject the idea that I freely choose and I’m not determined by an external agent in all my decisions.
I have always said that you can freely choose and I am certain your choices are not determined by an external agent. I just say that your choosing freely is compatible with your choices being either determined or having an unpredictable element.
Obviously, my human community has always supported that with the notions of accountability, responsibility and the support to improve one’s behaviors and correct oneself (and to learn and communicate and make creative decisions). We trust that we can freely learn from history and that there is a non-illusory reality. We see limits to our freedom but also recognize debts and responsibilities. I think even hardened determinists recognize the same, which argues against that point of view. But yes, this could all be an illusion. If so, then it doesn’t matter much. But we live lives as if it does matter very much. Why?
So I am not saying it is an illusion or that notions of accountability etc don’t count. I am just saying we don’t need a third alternative to predictable or unpredictable!Mark Frank
September 1, 2014
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#73 JDH
However, when trying to logically decide a question of philosophical importance to the real world ( such as whether we have free will ), it is just plain wrong to propose a thought experiment which does not comport with the known laws.
It depends on your objective. It you are trying to decide an empirical question such as whether the speed of light is constant then a thought experiment must conform to the laws of physics. If you are trying to decide a philosophical question or pin down the meaning of a word then there is no such requirement. You see it all the time on this very forum e.g. as people try to work out the conditions under which we might legitimately conclude design.Mark Frank
September 1, 2014
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Mung, I assume there is a difference between the "true fundamental laws of physics" and the laws we have inferred by the law of induction form experimental observations. The "laws" must always be open to change that can account for all the past observations, but add on some detail which may only occur at other scales or under different constraints. However, when trying to logically decide a question of philosophical importance to the real world ( such as whether we have free will ), it is just plain wrong to propose a thought experiment which does not comport with the known laws.JDH
September 1, 2014
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gpuccio
Regulatory procedures? There is much we still have to infer there!
Agree. :) But it shouldn't be difficult to get it done, now that we have so much information gathered from the research reports - the whole thing doesn't look that complex after all, does it? ;-)Dionisio
September 1, 2014
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JDH:
Thought experiments, to have any relevance to our existence in this universe, have to be constrained by the true fundamental laws of physics....We can certainly consider in our minds, worlds where the true fundamental laws of physics are violated. But the result of such speculation will NEVER give us useful information for judging what is true in this universe.
I would find this more believable if physicists refrained from engaging in thought experiments. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment As far as true fundamental laws of physics, that's even debatable. What are the proofs of the first and second laws of thermodynamics?Mung
September 1, 2014
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gpuccio
Strings theory and multiverse theory? Maybe wishful inferential cognition. :)
I like this general hybrid concept you just coined! WIC: Wishful Inferential Cognition Hey, but we have to admit this WIC stuff has cool sounding attractive titles that can make bestselling books ($$$)Dionisio
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