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On Invoking Non-Physical Mental States to “Solve the Problem” of Consciousness

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A. Reciprocating Bill asks a question

In a comment to a recent post Reciprocating Bill asked why I believe invoking non-physical mental states “solves the problems of consciousness.” It is an interesting question, but not for the reason Bill intended. It is interesting because it betrays Bill’s fundamental misunderstanding of the argument he purports to be critiquing (I am not picking on Bill in particular; I am merely using his error as a platform to discuss the same error that materialists always make when discussing this issue). In this post I will show how Bill’s misunderstanding stems from his inability to view the world outside of the box of materialist metaphysics in which he has allowed himself to become trapped. I will also show that if Bill were ever able to climb out of that box and open his mind to a different, wider (and for that reason superior) ontological perspective, he would realize that consciousness is not a “problem” to be solved but a datum that must be accounted for in any robust ontology.

Here is Bill’s question in its entirety:

In Reference and Reality Hilary Putnam parenthetically remarked, “As Wittgenstein often pointed out, a philosophical problem is typically generated in this way: certain assumptions are made which are taken for granted by all sides in the subsequent discussion.”

I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else? At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

B. The mind is immaterial

While a human is alive his mind and his brain are connected. No one doubts that. Just as assuredly, no one doubts that their own immaterial mind exists. And when I say no one doubts that, I include people like Sam Harris who say they do. Harris does not really doubt that his own mind exists. How do I know? Well, I am fairly sure Harris is not insane, and only an insane person asserts as false that which he must know to be true. It is an odd thing though. If Harris were to say “I’m a poached egg” they would put him in a padded room. But if he says the ontologically equivalent “I’m a meat robot,” they give him a book contract.

Denying that one’s own immaterial mind exists is nuts on the order of “I deny that the pronoun ‘I’ in this sentence has any antecedent.” And Sam Harris, like everyone else, knows for a certain fact that there is indeed an antecedent to that pronoun. Because the existence of one’s immaterial mind is self-evident, its existence can be denied only on pain of descending into patent absurdity. But that is not the only reason we can know with absolute certainty that our own immaterial mind exists. (Yes, I said “absolute” for that knowledge is not corrigible). Here are five more:

1. Thoughts are immaterial.

Think about a horse. Is the thought in your head about a horse an actual horse? Of course not. Is the thought in your head a material thing at all? Obviously not. Think about the number four. I don’t mean count four things. I mean think of the concept of “four.” Is the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. Is your thought about the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. It follows that thoughts are immaterial, and this is especially obvious when we are thinking about immaterial things such as abstract concepts.

Any attempt to deny this founders immediately on the shoals of the interface problem – how can an immaterial concept interface with a material object? On materialism, consciousness must be reducible to a configuration of physical things (whether we call those physical things “atoms” or “molecules” or “neurons” does not matter; the point is they are physical things). Consider any abstract concept; 2+2=4 will do. Merely saying 2+2=4 is represented somehow in the brain by a configuration of firing synapses does not get you there. 2+2=4 is represented in the pixels of the computer screen in front of you right now. Is your computer screen conscious? Obviously, an immaterial mind has no problem interfacing with an abstract immaterial concept. The burden is on the materialist who asserts that material things can interface with immaterial things to show how that can possibly be true.

2. Material objects cannot exhibit intentionality.

As the Wiki article states, “intentionality” is “the power of minds to be about, to represent, or to stand for things, properties and states of affairs.” Rocks do not exhibit intentionality. A rock does not, for example, have the capacity to assert a belief such as “Washington was the first president.” Similarly, the sentence “The group of oxygen atoms believed that Washington was the first president” is absurd. What is true for oxygen is also true for the atoms of the other elements of the body, i.e., carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, etc.

Suppose one gathers together all of the various elements that compose a human body (i.e., oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and mixes those chemicals up in exactly the same quantities and proportions that are found in a human body and puts it all in a bag. That bag of chemicals does not have any more capacity to assert a belief than a rock. Intentionality obviously exists; any attempt to deny its existence would be incoherent. It would be like saying “I believe there are no beliefs.” It follows, therefore, that intentionality exists and that it is not a property of a physical thing. Hence, it is a property of an immaterial mind.

In order to rebut this assertion the materialist would have to explain what is special about a bag of chemicals configured as the human body that it should all of a sudden acquire the capacity for intentionality when the same a different bag of the exact same chemicals does not. The usual response of “it’s all emergent and stuff” is a non-starter. Unless you show how the physical gives rise to the mental, “it’s emergent” is the equivalent of saying “it’s magic!”

3. Qualia are immaterial.

Suppose a person, let’s call her Mary, has a brain disease that makes her see everything in black and white. Mary watches the sun set every night and reads books on sunsets and has spectrometers that tell her all of the pertinent information about the colors of every sunset she watches such that she has complete information about the physical properties of sunsets. Suppose further that one day Mary is cured of the disease and that evening for the first time she sees the colors of the sunset in all the fullness of their glory.

Does Mary now know something about sunsets that she did not know before she was cured? Of course she does. She now has knowledge about her subjective experience of the various colors of the sunset that she did not have before. But Mary did not have any more information whatsoever about the physical properties of sunsets. It follows that her subjective experience of the sunset (e.g., how she might describe the reds as “warm”) cannot be reduced to the physical properties of the sunset which she already knew. Hence, qualia such as this cannot be reduced to physical properties and are therefore immaterial.

4. Subjective self-awareness is immaterial.

As I type this I am looking at an orange bottle on my desk. When I look at the bottle I experience subject-object duality. I experience myself as a subject and the bottle as an object perceived by the subject. Not only do bags of chemicals not have the capacity for intentionality, but also they do not have the capacity for perceiving subject-object duality or any other quality of subjective self-awareness. It follows that subjective self-awareness is the quality of an immaterial thing (i.e., the immaterial mind).

5. The unified consciousness is immaterial.

Here is a “problem” that neuroscience can never hope to address, much less solve. How can the unity of our consciousness be explained by discrete brain events? Do you perceive your own consciousness as this state followed by this state followed by this state followed by this state, ad infinitum? Of course not. Like everyone else you experience your own consciousness as a unified seamless whole. This is not surprising. In fact, it is necessary, because the “self” of which we are subjectively self-aware would not be much of a “self” unless it were a unified self. Thus, intentionality, subject-object duality, and all other aspects of consciousness depend on the existence of this unity.

Neuroscience cannot, in principle, account for this unity for a very simple reason – science operates at the level of composites. We are just a “pack of neurons” Crick says. But how can a pack (i.e., a composite) of individual physical pieces be aware of itself as a unified whole? The question is unanswerable. It follows that the unity of consciousness that every one of us experiences is not a property of a pack of neurons. It is a quality of an immaterial mind.

6. Summary

I will allow David Bentley Hart to summarize for us.

[The] intuitions of folk psychology are in fact perfectly accurate; they are not merely some theory about the mind that is either corrigible or dispensable. They constitute nothing less than a full and coherent phenomenological description of the life of the mind, and they are absolutely “primordial data,” which cannot be abandoned in favor of some alternative description without producing logical nonsense. Simply said, consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is quite real (as all of us, apart from a few cognitive scientists and philosophers, already know— and they know it too, really). And this presents a problem for materialism, because consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is also almost certainly irreconcilable with a materialist view of reality.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

The material mind is a datum. As Hart says, it is the primordial datum. It is a datum that is known by everyone, because it cannot not be known. Thus, when I assert that the mind is immaterial I am not making an argument. I not advancing an “explanation.” I am not trying to “solve a problem.” I am merely stating a fact, a self-evident fact at that.

C. Answering Bill’s Questions.

With all of that as preface, let us turn to Bill’s questions.

1. I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth.

As I said, I am not attempting to solve the problem of consciousness. Further, I deny that such a thing as the “problem of consciousness” exists, if by “problem” one means a conundrum posed for a solution concerning whether the mind exists. I invoke an ontology that includes nonphysical mental states not to solve a problem but merely to account for the data. To do otherwise would be manifest error. It is an indubitable fact that nonphysical mental states exist, and therefore any ontology that has no room for nonphysical mental states is, by definition, erroneous, incomplete or both.

Facts are stubborn things as John Adams famously said. Denying facts does not make them go away. I readily admit that the fact of the existence of the immaterial mind is not anodyne to those who insist on a materialist metaphysics. But I would point out that if one’s metaphysics conflict with the facts, that is not a problem with the facts. It is a problem with one’s metaphysics.

2. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc.

It was not intended to be a fair question Bill. It is a rhetorical question, asked only to emphasize that the only coherent answer is “they can’t be.”

3. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

What difficulty? There is no difficulty unless you’ve set out to do the impossible by ascribing the attributes of consciousness (intentionality, qualia, unity, etc.) to objects such as atoms or rocks or amalgamations of chemicals. No one “assigns” consciousness to immaterial minds any more than anyone assigns “seeing” to eyes. And that an immaterial mind is the locus of your consciousness is as evident as your eyes are the locus of your capacity to see (perhaps even more evident; blind people think after all). If acknowledging self-evident facts seems somehow “empty” to you, the problem is assuredly with your perception and not with the facts.

4. That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else?

The “interaction” problem is a function of blinkered metaphysics. Adopt a more robust metaphysics and the problem vanishes. Hart again:

In Western philosophical tradition, for instance, neither Platonists, nor Aristotelians, nor Stoics, nor any of the Christian metaphysicians of late antiquity or the Middle Ages could have conceived of matter as something independent of “spirit,” or of spirit as something simply superadded to matter in living beings. Certainly none of them thought of either the body or the cosmos as a machine merely organized by a rational force from beyond itself. Rather, they saw matter as being always already informed by indwelling rational causes, and thus open to— and in fact directed toward— mind. Nor did Platonists or Aristotelians or Christians conceive of spirit as being immaterial in a purely privative sense, in the way that a vacuum is not aerial or a vapor is not a solid. If anything, they understood spirit as being more substantial, more actual, more “supereminently” real than matter, and as in fact being the pervasive reality in which matter had to participate in order to be anything at all. The quandary produced by early modern dualism— the notorious “interaction problem” of how an immaterial reality could have an effect upon a purely material thing —was no quandary at all, because no school conceived of the interaction between soul and body as a purely extrinsic physical alliance between two disparate kinds of substance.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

5. At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

If by “intriguing hooks” you mean facile speculations about how the unbridgeable ontological gulf between the physical and mental is not so unbridgeable after all, I might agree. But if you are actually holding out hope that the gulf will be bridged, you are bound to be disappointed, because the mind is not the brain.  Materialists are addicted to debt.  The constantly issue epistemic promissory notes that a moment of ontological reflection would reveal they cannot possibly pay.  Bill, the bottom line is this:  Neuroscience will continue to progress, but it will never progress to the point where it do the impossible — collapse the distinction between the ontological categories “physical” and “mental.”

6. There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one.

That is kind of funny, because you appear to be saying in all earnestness that if a fact cannot be investigated through the methods of science, it is a problem with the fact (and not merely evidence of the limitations of science). Let’s unpack this. You seem to be advancing an argument that can be broken down as follows:

There are no facts except those revealed to us by science
Science has not revealed to us the existence of an immaterial mind
Therefore, immaterial minds do not exist.

Surely you know that the major premise cannot possibly be correct as a matter of simple and indubitable logic – because that premise itself has not been revealed to us by science. Therefore, if it is true it must as a result be false. For another thing, as we have already seen, the existence of the immaterial mind is an undeniable fact. Therefore, any argument that leads to the conclusion that it is not a fact must, by definition, be faulty.

7. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

The only reason you suspect that is because of the poverty of your metaphysics. Free yourself. Allow yourself to think beyond the comfortable contours of your metaphysical box, and you will see possibilities you were never able to see before. I promise.

Comments
Carp, you are missing the point. Although it is blatantly obvious if you removed both frontal lobes, and thus severely compromised the ability of consciousness to be received in the brain, that would cause severe impairment. I did not claim otherwise. The point you missed is that the whole person stays intact even though an entire hemisphere was removed. This, to put it mildly is NOT expected under materialistic presuppositions as was made evident by the neurosurgeons 'awe', “We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child’s personality and sense of humor,” Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining,, Moreover: The Case for the Soul – InspiringPhilosophy – (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz’s work) – Oct. 2014 – video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot even begin to explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70bornagain77
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate Your sarcasm is evident proof that you know nothing about traditional metaphysics. This obviously explains why you are a materialist-evolutionist-atheist. Good luck.niwrad
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate
No, the map is not the territory, Barry. What is in my head is a concept, a physical brain state that corresponds to my metarepresentational correlates for “horse”.
How do you get from the horse to the concept of a horse? Where does the concept of horse come from and what is its relationship to the actual horse that is being conceived?
The concept of “four”, or “four-ness”, or anything you might call “abstract” is still a physical brain state as all concepts are.
Does a person with a trillion concepts weigh more than a person will a million concepts all other things being equal? If not, why not? Since all physical things are extended in space, does that mean that the concept of a large physical thing, such as a galaxy, takes up more room in the head than the concept of a smaller physical thing, such as a horse? That sounds kind of dangerous. If concepts and brain states were physical, they would be constantly changing. So, is the concept of horse and its attendant brain state always changing? If so, which concept would be representative of the horse, the early state or the late state?
Map != Territory. These are novice errors.
So, you agree that the map is not the territory. Excellent. Define the map and define the territory. Why are they different? Don't just throw words around, tell us what they mean. (I can answer all of my own questions. Can you answer any of them?)StephenB
May 12, 2015
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There is no vicious regress problem either. The seeing chain is: the object is seen by the eye, the eye is seen by the mind, finally the mind is seen by the Self, which is identical to the unique unlimited Principle of all (symbolically, the “all-seeing Eye” inscribed into the triangle).
Lol. OK. Well, no more commentary needed on that, then! :-)eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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Any attempt to deny this founders immediately on the shoals of the interface problem – how can an immaterial concept interface with a material object? On materialism, consciousness must be reducible to a configuration of physical things (whether we call those physical things “atoms” or “molecules” or “neurons” does not matter; the point is they are physical things). Consider any abstract concept; 2+2=4 will do. Merely saying 2+2=4 is represented somehow in the brain by a configuration of firing synapses does not get you there.
Why not? You've given no reason for supposing this to be the case, let alone adopting this view. If the concept "2+2=4" were wholly accounted for as a physical brain state, how would the world be different, your view?
2+2=4 is represented in the pixels of the computer screen in front of you right now. Is your computer screen conscious?
These are different forms of representation. Why would we think pixel-representation would be cognitive representation. You are aware that neural networks are not LED arrays, yeah?
Obviously, an immaterial mind has no problem interfacing with an abstract immaterial concept. The burden is on the materialist who asserts that material things can interface with immaterial things to show how that can possibly be true.
As a philosophy professor once wrote on my paper: Using "obviously" more than rarely is a sign of problems in your thinking". On the burden of proof, you've missed the denied premiss that inheres in the term "materialist". A materialist by definition does not recognize the existence of "immaterial" anything, or that the "immaterial mind" or "immaterial anything" are even meaningful concepts. So, if you can get a materialist to even argue about who carries the burden of proof on this question, you have conclusive evidence that you are not dealing with a materialist in the first place. You don't have to be a materialist to understand the concepts and implications of the paradigm. I discuss and debate with many theists and other dualists who can understand the materialist paradigm as a paradigm. You can do it!eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate
If the mind “sees” the brain, then you have a vicious regress problem, unavoidably. This is the Homunculus error. If your (immaterial) mind “sees” the brain (never mind for now the problematic nature of “sees”, or available alternatives: “perceive”, “sense”, all terms that are inherently material concepts), what “sees” the mind during self-contemplation?
There is no such thing as self-contemplation, or any other self-action. Nihil agit se ipsum. There is no vicious regress problem either. The seeing chain is: the object is seen by the eye, the eye is seen by the mind, finally the mind is seen by the Self, which is identical to the unique unlimited Principle of all (symbolically, the "all-seeing Eye" inscribed into the triangle).niwrad
May 12, 2015
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bornagain77:
If the mind of a person were merely the brain, as materialists hold, then if half of a brain were removed then a ‘person’ should only be ‘half the person’, or at least somewhat less of a ‘person’, as they were before, but that is not the case.
Try removing the front half of the brain which would include both frontal lobes and you will see a big difference in that person. By removing a hemisphere of the brain which seems to be a mirror image of the half that's left, you would expect not that much of a change. It would be like removing a backup drive from a computer. If however you remove half of each drive, the computer is dead.Carpathian
May 12, 2015
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although it is impossible for the material to produce that which is immaterial, it is not impossible for that which is perceived to be immaterial to produce that which is material. Moreover, that is exactly what quantum mechanics reveals to us. i.e. That which is material/visible comes into existence from that which is perceived to be immaterial/invisible
The visible comes into existence from the invisible: Quantum Physics and Relativity 2: – Antoine Suarez PhD – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxuOE2Bo_i0&list=UUVmgTa2vbopdjpMNAQBqXHw
Of related note to the 'immaterial realm', higher dimensions are invisible to our ’3-Dimensional’ sight: This following video explains why higher dimensions are invisible to our 3 dimensional sight quite clearly:
Dr. Quantum in Flatland – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yxZ5I-zsE&feature=player_detailpage#t=25 of note: The preceding video is the lead off video on the outreach page of Dr. Anton Zeilinger’s quantum group in Vienna: https://vcq.quantum.at/outreach/multimedia/videos.html
Thus materialists simply have no basis in science for believing that the 'immaterial/invisible' does not exist, since what is perceived to be the material/visible realm is dependent on the invisible/immaterial realm for its own existence in the first place.bornagain77
May 12, 2015
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And any interaction of something immaterial with something physical is incoherent, not just immaterial mind interacting with physical brain?
The incoherence obtains as soon as you posit "interaction" between "immaterial [anything]" and "material [anything]". "Immaterial" as a standalone concept is not incoherent, strictly speaking, as there is nothing to "hold together with". It's an undefined concept, but it's not applied to anything problematic that renders it incoherent ("incoherent" meaning that it "holds together" conceptually. It's not even incoherent, we might say, along the the lines of a putative proposition being "not even wrong". When you connect an "immaterial something" to a "material something", you have concepts that do not and cannot hold together -- incoherence.
eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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eig and carp:
"If we split the brain we can see two distinct “selves” emerge — whoops!"
Here is a first person account of the split-brain experiment in which the person in the experiment testifies to being 'one' person although his actions were split:
"BTW, with regards to your citation of the split-brain experiments (and people who suffer from that due to injury, etc). I was involved in one of those split-brain experiments myself. (Which is possible by temporarily numbing the corpus callosum.) And believe me, it was the damnedest thing. The thing is, even though different parts of my brain were acting as if they had no knowledge of “each other”, behind it all was still “me”, consciously experiencing the strange disconnection. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/holy-rollers-pascals-wager-if-id-is-wrong-it-was-an-honest-mistake/#comment-460565
As well, The second video of the following two videos deals specifically with your false 'two souls' claim:
The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz's work) - Oct. 2014 - video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 The Case for the Soul: Refuting Physicalist Objections - video Computers vs. Qualia, Libet and 'Free won't', Split Brain (unified attention of brain despite split hemispheres, visual and motion information is shared between the two hemispheres despite the hemispheres being split), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB5TNrtu9Pk
Moreover, the results of hemispherectomies fly in direct contradiction of your materialistic model,,, If the mind of a person were merely the brain, as materialists hold, then if half of a brain were removed then a 'person' should only be ‘half the person’, or at least somewhat less of a 'person', as they were before, but that is not the case. The ‘whole person’ stays intact even though the brain suffers severe impairment:
Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zBrY77mBNg Dr. Gary Mathern - What Can You Do With Half A Brain? - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrKijBx_hAw Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: - 1997 Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining,, Dr. John Freeman, the director of the Johns Hopkins Pediatric Epilepsy Center, said he was dumbfounded at the ability of children to regain speech after losing the half of the brain that is supposedly central to language processing. ''It's fascinating,'' Dr. Freeman said. ''The classic lore is that you can't change language after the age of 2 or 3.'' But Dr. Freeman's group has now removed diseased left hemispheres in more than 20 patients, including three 13-year-olds whose ability to speak transferred to the right side of the brain in much the way that Alex's did.,,, http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html
In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study:
"Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." Strange but True: When Half a Brain Is Better than a Whole One - May 2007 Excerpt: Most Hopkins hemispherectomy patients are five to 10 years old. Neurosurgeons have performed the operation on children as young as three months old. Astonishingly, memory and personality develop normally. ,,, Another study found that children that underwent hemispherectomies often improved academically once their seizures stopped. "One was champion bowler of her class, one was chess champion of his state, and others are in college doing very nicely," Freeman says. Of course, the operation has its downside: "You can walk, run—some dance or skip—but you lose use of the hand opposite of the hemisphere that was removed. You have little function in that arm and vision on that side is lost," Freeman says. Remarkably, few other impacts are seen. ,,, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-when-half-brain-better-than-whole
Thus once again the claims of materialists are found, when examined in detail, to be false.bornagain77
May 12, 2015
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Wow. This is a fast and furious thread.Mapou
May 12, 2015
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Presented without comment: E @ 14:
The concept of “four” [is] a physical brain state . . .
E @ 16
Well, at this point, it’s hard to see this anything but just stupidity on your part being the problem, Barry.
Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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Carpathian, Have you ever had any half-memories of your mother? Just wondering.Mung
May 12, 2015
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@niwrad
Mind “sees” the brain (it can conceive, imagine, analyse, study, design it), while the inverse doesn’t hold. Walking can do nothing of the sort wrt body, because walking is simply a movement of the body. While walking is lower than body, mind is higher than brain.
If the mind "sees" the brain, then you have a vicious regress problem, unavoidably. This is the Homunculus error. If your (immaterial) mind "sees" the brain (never mind for now the problematic nature of "sees", or available alternatives: "perceive", "sense", all terms that are inherently material concepts), what "sees" the mind during self-contemplation? It can't be this immaterial mind, because if mind can perceive itself, then "immaterial mind" is superfluous and all we need is a physical brain-as-mind for introspection and self-reference. If mind cannot self-perceive, but needs an external perceiver, a little homonculus in our Cartesian Theater, then you're sliding inexorably down a vicious regress of infinite meta-minds, and meta-meta-minds, and meta-meta-meta-minds. As for "lower" and "higher" as you've used them there, again, that doesn't cohere as a scalar, so far as I can see. What does "higher" entail vs. "lower" on this scale. What do we test to determine if one phenomenon is "higher" than another on your metric? Not sure it matters, but pointing out how inchoate the language of "immaterial" is, from one end to the other.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate, so it's not immaterial that is the issue, it's "immaterial mind"? And any interaction of something immaterial with something physical is incoherent, not just immaterial mind interacting with physical brain?Mung
May 12, 2015
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2. Material objects cannot exhibit intentionality. As the Wiki article states, “intentionality” is “the power of minds to be about, to represent, or to stand for things, properties and states of affairs.” Rocks do not exhibit intentionality. A rock does not, for example, have the capacity to assert a belief such as “Washington was the first president.” Similarly, the sentence “The group of oxygen atoms believed that Washington was the first president” is absurd. What is true for oxygen is also true for the atoms of the other elements of the body, i.e., carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, etc.
Well, at this point, it's hard to see this anything but just stupidity on your part being the problem, Barry. I don't say that very often, online, because I don't think it's true but in the most rare cases. But here I can't see any other explanation. Here's a a very simple and necessary implication of your idea. If what you say is true, water cannot be "wet", because neither hydrogen atoms nor oxygen atoms are "wet". It is a textbook case of the Fallacy of Composition you have on display, here, Barry. It's been pointed out to you repeatedly, in terms a gradeschooler can understand and learn from. Yet you persist in committing to this fallacy over and over and over and over.... What is try for an oxygen atom is not necessarily true for a any collection of oxygen atoms, or necessarily true for particular collections of oxygen atoms. This is remedial level examples. The fallacy is all the more egregious when you suppose that the extremely complex configuration of matter and energy we call a "human" does not and cannot have properties or characteristics that inhere in the individual atoms (or, reduced further, why not just invoke bosons and fermions?). The world as you necessarily see it cannot have "wet water", Barry. And yet, you have wet water available from the faucet in your kitchen. Bask in your cognitive dissonance, dude!eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate
“Walking” is not a distinct entity apart from body, but rather a high level description of a body in action. “Mind” is not a distinct entity apart from the brain, but rather a high level description of brain activity.
Your analogy is nonsense. You seem unable to grasp the ontological difference between the seer and the seen, between a seeing agent and a seen object. Mind "sees" the brain (it can conceive, imagine, analyse, study, design it), while the inverse doesn't hold. Walking can do nothing of the sort wrt body, because walking is simply a movement of the body. While walking is lower than body, mind is higher than brain.niwrad
May 12, 2015
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@Barry,
1. Thoughts are immaterial. Think about a horse. Is the thought in your head about a horse an actual horse? Of course not. Is the thought in your head a material thing at all?
No, the map is not the territory, Barry. What is in my head is a concept, a physical brain state that corresponds to my metarepresentational correlates for "horse".
Obviously not. Think about the number four. I don’t mean count four things. I mean think of the concept of “four.” Is the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No.
You are confusing the concept of abstraction with abstract concepts, Barry. They are not the same thing. The concept of "four", or "four-ness", or anything you might call "abstract" is still a physical brain state as all concepts are. You've conflated the abstract-ness of the referent with the abstract-ness of the symbol. Whoops.
Is your thought about the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No.
Yes. We can even see the neural correlates light up via fMRIs and other instruments for concepts which have abstract referents. You've clearly got no means to distinguish map from territory on this subject at this point, Barry. You won't be anything but confused until you sort this out.
It follows that thoughts are immaterial, and this is especially obvious when we are thinking about immaterial things such as abstract concepts.
Map != Territory. These are novice errors.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate:
It conflicts with what we do observe in the brain. If we split the brain we can see two distinct “selves” emerge — whoops!
Exactly. If we had one "immaterial mind" before we separate the hemispheres we should have one after, or possibly two that are identical. An immaterial mind cannot be cut in half when we cut the material brain in half.Carpathian
May 12, 2015
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We have never denied that “immaterial” is deeply problematic for materialists. But incoherent?
Yes, insofar as one supposes that an "immaterial mind" interacts with a "physical brain", the concept fails, doesn't hold together. On dualism an "immaterial mind" is "connected to" (to use the term Barry used here) a physical brain, the two entities ostensibly forming a "self" as a kind of composite (even this isn't internally consistent, though, as Barry thinks the "immaterial mind" is self-sufficient as a "self" even without the brain -- after death, for example -- which means the brain is not just "necessary but not sufficient", it's not necessary at all, just superfluous to the self). Positing this kind of interaction creates insuperable logical difficulties, though. Once you suppose an "immaterial mind" interacts with a material brain, or a material anything, it becomes a material entity, by definition. Gravity is not matter or energy, but interacts with it, but is subsumed in material STEM, right? It's material by virtual of its real interaction with matter and energy. So, dualists have to choice "immaterial mind as material", which is self-contradictory (incoherent), or "immaterial mind does not interact with the physical brain", which which renders the "self" incoherent -- there is no connection between the brain and the immaterial mind, which is just another instance of self-contradiction. If you are aware of how an "immaterial mind" can interact with a "material thing" without materially interacting, you can be world famous by Friday. If not, you're stuck with dualist incoherence, the vacuous nature of "immaterial" as it is used by Barry (and others) here.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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Barry:
We are just a “pack of neurons” Crick says. But how can a pack (i.e., a composite) of individual physical pieces be aware of itself as a unified whole? The question is unanswerable. It follows that the unity of consciousness that every one of us experiences is not a property of a pack of neurons. It is a quality of an immaterial mind.
That does not follow at all. My brain has memories of my mother, many memories, but there is not one single brain cell that even knows what she looks like. It does not follow that many brain cells together don't contain an image of my mother. The same goes for emotions. If you damage a certain part of your brain, you may still recognize your parents but that conscious feeling of love you had for them may be gone. If the mind is immaterial, why did its feelings of conscious love change due to physical damage to the brain?Carpathian
May 12, 2015
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Denying that one’s own immaterial mind exists is nuts on the order of “I deny that the pronoun ‘I’ in this sentence has any antecedent.”
No, it's not on the order of that, or anything like that statement at all. Rather the proposition is that the mind is a physical property of humans (and other animals), the activity of the brain. And Sam Harris, like everyone else, knows for a certain fact that there is indeed an antecedent to that pronoun.
Right, because there is no problem in identifying the "i" as a physical phenomenon, the activity of human brains.
Because the existence of one’s immaterial mind is self-evident, its existence can be denied only on pain of descending into patent absurdity.
I had a neurosurgeon point out to me a kind of parody of this idea regarding the brain/mind. You know if we open up your skull, Barry, and poke our fingers around in your brain, you won't feel a thing. Voila`! Empirical evidence that the mind is immaterial, yeah! Of course there's no nerve endings in your brain to register any pain sensations. Your "self-evidence" makes a similar mistake. You can't (I can't) feel yourself thinking, anymore than you can feel a neurosurgeon's gloved finger poking around in your cerebral cortex, but that is not warrant for you suppose that mind is immaterial, anymore than you would think so because you can't feel the surgeon's finger probing around. The inexistence of the immaterial mind is denied on grounds that the hypothesis, however self-evident it may appear to you, is totally superfluous (and worse) in light of what we know about the brain and it's behavior. I say worse because it's not even the case that the "immaterial mind" superstition is impotent. It conflicts with what we do observe in the brain. If we split the brain we can see two distinct "selves" emerge -- whoops! If we alter the brain's chemistry with drugs or other structural changes we see changes that correspond with our physical models but which are completely at odds with your superstitions of the immaterial mind supervening upon a physical brain. As a starter, if you can't even conceptual consider, just as an intellectual exercise, the possibility that your intuitions are fallible, you will have closed off vast departments of knowledge that are available to.
But that is not the only reason we can know with absolute certainty that our own immaterial mind exists. (Yes, I said “absolute” for that knowledge is not corrigible). Here are five more:
Mind manifestly exists. That's not controversial or problematic. It's the "immaterial" modifier you insist on which is incoherent, tenable only as matter of clinging to an intuition over and against the evidence and knowledge available to you.
eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate: “immaterial” is incoherent and deeply problematic. We have never denied that "immaterial" is deeply problematic for materialists. But incoherent?Mung
May 12, 2015
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I was surprised to find there is a book on amazon with the title "Philosophy of the Brain."Mung
May 12, 2015
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E @ 5
It’s a very short and boring conversation . . .
For the reasons I gave at 4, certainly very short anyway.Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate:
“Walking” is not a distinct entity apart from body, but rather a high level description of a body in action. “Mind” is not a distinct entity apart from the brain, but rather a high level description of brain activity.
That is a great analogy. When brain damage occurs, the "mind" suddenly behaves differently.Carpathian
May 12, 2015
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. Just as assuredly, no one doubts that their own immaterial mind exists. And when I say no one doubts that, I include people like Sam Harris who say they do. Harris does not really doubt that his own mind exists. How do I know? Well, I am fairly sure Harris is not insane, and only an insane person asserts as false that which he must know to be true. It is an odd thing though. If Harris were to say “I’m a poached egg” they would put him in a padded room. But if he says the ontologically equivalent “I’m a meat robot,” they give him a book contract.
Maybe your confusion should suggest you don't have the understanding you should, then, right? Consider that maybe. Neither Sam Harris or I doubt that I have a mind. Rather, I doubt (and I believe Sam Harris doubts) that I have an "immaterial mind". "Mind" is not problematic. "immaterial" is incoherent and deeply problematic. This is not even good as a juvenile effort, so far, Barry. It's a very short and boring conversation if this is Barry announcing that he knows that Sam Harris or I really do believe we have immaterial minds and are lying about it when we state contrary positions.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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eigenstate, the type of eliminative materialism that you spew is literally insane. You may deny the existence of your own immaterial mind just as Sam Harris does. But for the reasons discussed in the OP you don't really believe what you say. For the same reason I would not argue with you if you said you believe the earth is flat, I will not argue with your assertions in 2. It makes no sense for me to argue with you when neither you nor I believe your argument is sound.Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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I will translate Bill's comment at 1 from Darwin-ese to plain English. "I am a coward. Therefore, I will respond only in a materialist echo chamber where I can be sure no one will challenge me." OK Bill; if you don't have the nads to expose your arguments to scrutiny, by all means slink back over to TSZ with Lizzie. Maybe she will treat you to some contradictory assertions, and you can affirm both of them.Barry Arrington
May 12, 2015
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While a human is alive his mind and his brain are connected. No one doubts that.
BZZZT. You went off the rails on the very first sentence after you quoting section from RB. I certainly dispute this sentence: "The brain and the mind are connected". This represents a category error. The mind is the brain, "mind" just being a handy term to focus on the *activity* of the brain, and "brain" useful in pointing at the structural aspects of the brain. Brain and mind are not "connected" as distinct entities. They are only connected in the sense that "walking" is an activity of the body. "Walking" is not a distinct entity apart from body, but rather a high level description of a body in action. "Mind" is not a distinct entity apart from the brain, but rather a high level description of brain activity. Fail on the first step, Barry.eigenstate
May 12, 2015
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