Quote of the Day

“If you could get the people who would be affected by being placed in a third category to agree with you, then that would be something significant.” As you say good luck with that! Vivid vividbleau

Sev the very cells in the body manipulated with hormones etc tell the real story: XY. KF kairosfocus

Seversky

The fact that a man who has transitioned to the female gender retains his male physique in spite of the hormone therapy but is no longer wholly male either suggests to me we should recognize it as a third category.

If you could get the people who would be affected by being placed in a third category to agree with you, then that would be something significant. But right or wrong, if your opinion doesn't sway them, then they're not going to accept that third categorization. As I see it, that's where it stands today. That's why transitioned-men want to compete with women - because they think they really are women. At the same time, if they're willing to admit that they're not really women and should participate either with men or in their own category, then that would be an improvement, as I see it. Silver Asiatic

Silver Asiatic/261

One of the points Vivid has been repeating, however, is that to “take them at their word” we have to accept them as “women”, entitled to all the rights and identification that any woman receives. Segregating them into their own category denies what they’re claiming. So, why not draw the logical conclusion and just say that they’re not women?

The fact that a man who has transitioned to the female gender retains his male physique in spite of the hormone therapy but is no longer wholly male either suggests to me we should recognize it as a third category. Seversky

Just ban the madness of transgender ideology: Michael Knowles :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIjrzHCgxks&t=2005s Lieutenant Commander Data

Seversky

If we accept them at their word – and I see no reason why we shouldn’t – then, for society as a whole, the issue becomes what adjustments need to be made to accommodate their needs while protecting the legitimate rights and interests of other members of society such as cisgender women and girls.

One of the points Vivid has been repeating, however, is that to "take them at their word" we have to accept them as "women", entitled to all the rights and identification that any woman receives. Segregating them into their own category denies what they're claiming. So, why not draw the logical conclusion and just say that they're not women? Silver Asiatic

Sev, but sports DID set up classes that made sense. The agenda is to destroy them. And, men and women by and large have significantly different body and skeletal structures, especially that women are more gracile, part of feminine beauty. Women tend to have significantly less upper body strength and less robust skeletons. The description in OP of a man shattering women's faces is regrettably realistic. This is also part of the reason behind the gentleman's rule not to hit women. There are even tables and charts of target zones in the body and a recognition that in a fist fight certain zones are off limits if life is not in the stakes. KF kairosfocus

Vividbleau/255

It seems that this thread is dying a natural death so I will put a bow on the casket and summarize what has been demonstrated and ignored.

Let me say a few words over the grave.

1) None of the advocates for men who think they are woman can say what a women is, pretty astonishing. If one does not know what a woman is how can they in the same breath say that men who think they are women are indeed women? I asked this questions several time and the response has been cricket’s.

The human race is a sexually dimorphic species in which each individual typically develops as either male of female. Each sex has distinct physical and psychological "profiles" but there is considerable variation in the various traits that make up those profiles. Nonetheless, for the vast majority of individuals the physical and psychological profiles are aligned. They are content with being either male or female and the rest of society has no difficulty recognizing them by their physical and behavioral attributes and acknowledging them as such. What has emerged more recently is that are a relatively small number of individuals who report feeling that their physical and psychological profiles are not aligned such that a physical male may feel like a woman trapped in a man's body. If we accept them at their word - and I see no reason why we shouldn't - then, for society as a whole, the issue becomes what adjustments need to be made to accommodate their needs while protecting the legitimate rights and interests of other members of society such as cisgender women and girls. The example has been raised of sports where a transgender male has taken part in a women's competition and been overwhelmingly successful by virtue of the advantage his unaltered male physique has given him. The transition procedures have not given him the more limited capacity - in some respects - of the female physique. If one of the purposes of sports is that all competitors should have a fair chance of winning then it seems to me that one solution might be to follow the example of boxing which has set up different division for different weight categories such that a heavyweight is never matched against a featherweight, for example. That is only a suggestion, however, and it should be up to the various sporting communities to decide what works best for them. Seversky

SA, every man has a mother, and a father. We cannot not know what is as self evident as this; we are seeing absurdities of ideological imposition that call forth Havel's green grocer. KF kairosfocus

Excellent summary, Vivid. A man who does not know what a woman is, is incapable of being a true man or of showing the respect to a woman that she deserves. And it comes back to him - if he doesn't know what a woman is then he can't know himself. Silver Asiatic

this thread is dying a natural death

You obviously do not believe in life after death. Prediction: there will be a resurrection some place. jerry

To all It seems that this thread is dying a natural death so I will put a bow on the casket and summarize what has been demonstrated and ignored. 1) None of the advocates for men who think they are woman can say what a women is, pretty astonishing. If one does not know what a woman is how can they in the same breath say that men who think they are women are indeed women? I asked this questions several time and the response has been cricket’s. 2) No one has rebutted the testimony of various women from the likes of RBG and the head of the women liberation front that this will decimate title 1X and womens privacy rights and is harmful to women and girls. I could have also appealed to Germaine Greer, one of the founders of the modern day feminist movement and JK Rowling none of which are right wing religious zealots. 3) it has been demonstrated that this issue is extremely harmful to woman and no one has been able to deny the case laid out by KF, SA and myself that it is very harmful to women. 4) No answer as to why a man who thinks he is a women should not be able to participate in women's sports if indeed he is a women. Why should a more muscular woman etc, etc, be prohibited from women’s sports? 5) On what basis can one deny the validly of any of the 72 genders which one commentator said that some of them are absurd . If thinking your a women makes you a women then none of the 72 genders can be absurd. If anyone objects please direct me to the specific posts that addressed the above. Vivid vividbleau

JVL “I’m curious . . . honestly, what prompted you to ask me ‘what is a woman’ in the first place? I don’t know if you expected a particular reaction . . . did you?” I ask everyone that question who tell me than men who think they are women are women and so far no one , including you, has been able to tell me what a woman is. Seems like a pretty important question especially since if one does not know what a woman is how can they tell me that a man who thinks he is a woman is a woman? Vivid “Keep in mind the FBI tried to orchestrate a silent coup against a duly elected President. JVL “Which president? If you mean President Trump in 2020 may I point out that no court and no US government organisation of any kind has endorsed the idea that the election was stolen..” Nor did I ever say it was may I tell you I am referring to the Steele dossier bought and paid for by Hilary Clintons campaign and then used by the FBI to attempt a silent coup. vividbleau

Vividbleau: I'm curious . . . honestly, what prompted you to ask me 'what is a woman' in the first place? I don't know if you expected a particular reaction . . . did you? JVL

JVL “So, when asked what I think a ‘woman’ is I (eventually) tried to answer honestly and truthfully. Yes, I changed my phrasing and even thought of some extra conditions (not trying to cheat or hurt) but I think I was pretty consistent, accounting for not trying to come up with a hard-and-fast dictionary definition” I don’t question your sincerity and you have been pretty consistent , consistent in not giving an answer to “what is a woman” except you don’t know. I know you think you have but by your own words you tried hard to not come up with a definition and in that you have succeeded. What you did do in all your posts was basically justify why you don’t know what a woman is. It took us a while to get there but at least “I don’t know what a woman is” is an answer thank you for that. Vivid vividbleau

KF

o, specifically, you cannot legitimately claim a right that I must address you as a woman, if you manifestly are a man, as you wish to compel me into habitual lying which taints conscience.

Yes, exactly. We have a duty to the truth. If someone said, for example "I am worthless" - we would have the duty to correct that. You're not worthless. It's the same with a man who says he is a woman. We have the duty to stand against that falsehood, for his own sake - and for society and for our own personal integrity. Silver Asiatic

SA, yes that frames the issue somewhat. However the direct question remains. I suggest that there is a lesser sense of contractual entitlements due to contracts; including govt declared entitlements. Even that is derivative. I suggest that core rights are binding morally founded claims we make on others based on our inherent dignity as human beings. So, if I claim a right X, it is because you have corresponding duties Y that require you to uphold me in regards to X. My rights to life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation, etc imply your duties to uphold same. Murder and negligent homicides are gross failings of duty. This is then compounded by fundamental equality, worth and dignity as sharing a common nature as responsible, rational, significantly free [volitional] and morally governed, social creatures. So, if I claim a right Y, that must be grounded on, to uphold Y does not involve being forced or compelled or expected to do evil, rights must be compatible with sound conscience. Otherwise rights become another rhetorical excuse for oppression, rights must be just. Freedoms, mean things we are at liberty to do within lawfulness or justice, similarly. Thus, we see that the civil peace of justice is due balance of rights, freedoms and duties, which involves coherence. So, specifically, you cannot legitimately claim a right that I must address you as a woman, if you manifestly are a man, as you wish to compel me into habitual lying which taints conscience. This is pointing back to first duties and of course the roots of our nature, worth, dignity thus our ultimate source. However first duties are self evident, the very attempt to object implicitly appeals to same. KF kairosfocus

KF As with all important matters touching on human growth, life and civilization - we have to look to origins. If the origin of human rights are from elected governments, then these are not really rights. They're just permissions given by the government. What the government gives, it can take away. American founding documents speak of inalienable rights - meaning those which persist no matter what government is in power. So, the origin of those rights must be from a higher, more permanent order. They cannot come from the individual either because we cannot grant rights to ourselves.. So, human rights are built into and commeasurable with the dignity and sacredness of human life. If there is no uniqueness to human life, then there are no inalienable rights. Rights are conferred by that which has the power to do so. We give certain rights to animals that they do not give to themselves. Animals will attack each other in the wild. We however, confer rights on animals because we want them to "live a good life". Silver Asiatic

JVL

The world is changing. You might not like some of the changes but that doesn’t mean those changes are destroying everything.

The transgender political agenda along with LGBT rights, gay marriage and abortion rights (and promotion of contraception) are anti-family movements. It's not merely that some people might not like these changes because they don't fit their personal opinions - but there are real consequences to an attack on family life and on children: There are hundreds of articles on this topic - Demographic collapse in Europe: -- New study forecasts the EU's population will plummet by millions more than expected -- Long-term decreasing rates in fertility and increasing life expectancy could have damaging consequences for almost every European nation -- But in the years ahead, countries in the south and east of Europe – with much lower rates of fertility and higher rates of emigration – are expected to perform far worse than those in the north, further widening European economic inequality, with few tractable policy solutions in sight. -- The urgency of finding equitable solutions will grow as Europe’s share of the global population begins to shrink and as intra-European demographic imbalances worsen. -- Demographic decline is perhaps more acute in Europe than anywhere else in the world, partly because the problem is exacerbated by the EU’s guaran- tee on freedom of movement, which speeds the ‘brain drain’ from economically under-performing countries in the south and east and puts further downward pressure on birth rates in these areas This is all a very destructive trend - traceable to changes in sexual ethics. When population declines under a certain threshold, the economy will collapse. Society will not be able to sustain services and support for those who are living in it, especially if the elderly outnumber the young. The change in sexual ethics that we're debating with so-called gender equality is the continued movement towards sexual permissiveness irresponsibility. There are fewer marriages, more contraception and divorce - and aberrant, non-fruitful sexual behaviors are widespread. An obvious result from all of that is the demographic collapse - which some politicians think can be solved by immigration from nations (Islamic) that have more children. Silver Asiatic

SA, what is -- and what makes/grounds -- a right (as opposed to a claim or assertion)? KF kairosfocus

JVL @ 244 Poland and Hungary are taking a strong position - other EU nations may follow:

Polish President Andrzej Duda has called the promotion of LGBT rights an "ideology" more destructive than communism, in a campaign speech. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53039864

Some people are being persecuted for opposition to the LGBT agenda:

Open University criminology professor who said 'male-bodied' trans women should NOT be in female prisons suffers public harassment and is compared to a 'racist uncle at Christmas dinner table' for her gender critical beliefs EXCLUSIVE: Criminology Professor has crowdfunded £80,000 for a tribunal Jo Phoenix plans to fight Open University for not protecting her from bullying Professor was compared to transphobic and racist for transgender views Follows Kathleen Stock quitting Sussex University amid trans-rights storm https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10165133/Professor-hounded-job-saying-male-bodied-trans-women-NOT-female-prisons.html

This is a study on the backlash occurring in Europe:

The present analysis of selected EU member states has revealed that backlash in gender equality and women’s rights has occurred in the last few years. The main areas and fields of this backlash appear to be common across countries. They include the key areas of institutional and policy framework for gender equality, certain policy fields (such as education, sexual and reproductive health and rights, and preventing and combating violence against women) as well as the working environment/operating space for women’s human rights NGOs. Consequently, both the gender equality and women’s human rights agenda and the main actors promoting this agenda have faced challenges. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/604955/IPOL_STU(2018)604955_EN.pdf

As I said before, I think this kind of backlash will increase. Even in the USA where trans-rights have enormous support, a backlash is beginning over women's sports. Silver Asiatic

JVL, change is not necessarily positive. The Overton Window framework, slippery policy and cultural agenda slope leading to disaster is a real possibility and arguably has been happening for generations but is now accelerating as over the cliff end game appears. Note here https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/philosophy/francis-schaeffers-line-of-despair-model-of-our-civilisations-intellectual-history/ and in that context note Lindh et al 1994 on 4th gen warfare and a predicted balkanisation of the US:

The third idea that shapes our understanding of fourth generation warfare ties in our situation here at home. In the United States of America, our traditional, Western, Judeo-Christian culture is collapsing. It is not collapsing because it failed. On the contrary, it has given us the freest and most prosperous society in human history. Rather, it is collapsing because we are abandoning it. Starting in the mid-1960s, we have thrown away the values, morals, and standards that define traditional Western culture. In part, this has been driven by cultural radicals, people who hate our Judeo-Christian culture. Dominant in the elite, especially in the universities, the media, and the entertainment industry (now the most powerful force in our culture and a source of endless degradation), the cultural radicals have successfully pushed an agenda of moral relativism, militant secularism, and sexual and social “liberation.” This agenda has slowly codified into a new ideology. usually known as “multiculturalism” or “political correctness,” that is in essence Marxism translated from economic into social and cultural terms. This new, cultural Marxism has had remarkable success in discrediting America’s common culture and substituting for it cultural fragmentation based on ethnic groups, gender, sexual identity, and class. If this trend continues, Americans will increasingly find they have less in common with each other as Americans. National identity will weaken. Other, mutually hostile identities will strengthen, until the nation comes apart: region vs. region, minority vs. minority, and gang vs. gang. When one nation comes apart at its cultural seams, eventually it turns on itself and fights.

KF kairosfocus

Vividbleau: This sounds to much like an order. I respectfully request the above not demand it.. I appreciate that. I hadn't seen that before I got frustrated. Silver Asiatic: I quoted a comment from a video (which I didn’t even watch) which used the word stupid, and that may have appeared to be ridicule of you or others. If so, I apologize. I hope you will feel free to post your serious comments and be assured that they will be treated appropriately. The comment I offered had nothing to do with the topic at hand. I was just reflecting on LCD’s viewpoint and mentioning how expectations have changed. I hadn't watched the video and that wasn't part of my frustration. Here's some of what I did notice:

because they will continue to damage our society in even worse and more destructive ways. Already they want to destroy the innocence of children in classrooms (this is the group that denies that a pregnant woman is carrying a baby so destroying children’s lives is part of it).

“I support the curent thing and endorse whatever stupid thing my government do. Why ? Because otherwise I will be marginalised, punished and I couldn’t exercise my virtue signalling to feel myself an atheist saint. This would be the end for me and my atheistic worldview. “

I guess this is a kind of perversion that mimics free will of woke society but in fact there is no free will for woke types it’s like you should agree EXACTLY what the the government says on legacy media or…highway. But was their choice to give up their own free will for the sake of wokeism party.

It started out that they wanted to do whatever the woke, hipster, Gnostic-celebrity cult would tell them so that they could be part of the cult themselves, and therefore gain all of the benefits of being a member. They wanted to be the ones laughing along with the late-night comedians and not the ones being laughed at. But it has changed. Now, you don’t only lose membership in Club Cool, but you will be punished and people will hate you and blame you for all of the evils in the world..

It works like a charm against the radical leftoid attempts at perverting the language.

You’re probably right that we don’t have much choice against those types. So, we have to do something. But in the bigger picture, the radical left took over the universities and entertainment and media and everybody just went along with how they redefined everything.

I don't mind being disagreed with, I expect it on this site. I'm not here to change minds, I'm here to learn what other people think because I think it's important to listen to each other. When asked a question I try and answer it respectfully as long as the respect is mutual. I do not understand why anyone really cares what I think. I think it's pretty obvious that the term 'woman' is becoming more and more contextual and I, personally, do not have a problem with that. So, when asked what I think a 'woman' is I (eventually) tried to answer honestly and truthfully. Yes, I changed my phrasing and even thought of some extra conditions (not trying to cheat or hurt) but I think I was pretty consistent, accounting for not trying to come up with a hard-and-fast dictionary definition. I think modern societies are complicated with many different views and standards and morals and I prefer to try and be understanding and accommodating. I also understand that, for some, the issue is and should be black and white. That's fine, I acknowledge that view and I'd like to accommodate and respect that as much as possible. I do not and will not project that view into the destruction of civilisation or some kind of evil plot to destroy everything we hold dear. I won't do that because I don't think that's true. However, I very frequently find my view being portrayed in just that way. And it's very tiring and trying; to be assumed to be an idiot or a liar or evil . . . Silver Asiatic, I'm sure there are people in Europe who see things the way you do. But the vast majority do not. A lot more people are worried about Sharia law or uncontrolled immigration or terrorism than there are worried about same-sex marriages or trans-gender individuals. You can see that every day in the news, in the papers, in popular entertainment shows and in the dramas on the BBC and ITV and Chanels 4 and 5 (those are the biggest terrestrial TV channels). Programs like Gentleman Jack (a drama about a 19th century lesbian) are widely watched and respected, frequently winning honours at the BAFTAs. Many, many fictional characters in TV shows are gay or lesbian. There are quite a few gay or lesbian news presenters and reporters that I know of. There are some MPs who are gay or lesbian. There are some famous (and infamous) cross-dressers. And, recently there are a number of trans-individuals. There is no wide-spread backlash or claims that all this is eroding the foundations of our civilisation. Occasionally there is a kerfuffle like the bakery that refused to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple but, generally, not many people are bothered. Not that I want to add fuel to your fire but: https://www.ranker.com/list/famous-lesbian-politicians/lgbt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT_politicians_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT_politicians_in_the_United_States We're doing pretty well. The UK and France and Germany and Spain and Portugal and Denmark and The Netherlands and Belgium and Italy and Switzerland and Austria and Poland and Luxembourg all have some problems and issues, no of them are perfect. But they are in no danger of collapsing because we've generally decided to be nice and respectful to other people as long as they are being nice and respectful back. The world is changing. You might not like some of the changes but that doesn't mean those changes are destroying everything. JVL

JVL “Either give me a different definition, confirm your original definition or state the obvious which is you cannot define what a woman is. Take your pick.” This sounds to much like an order. I respectfully request the above not demand it.. Vivid vividbleau

JVL

Since it’s pretty clear that there is no real point in my trying to honestly and seriously reply to your many queries because I’ll only be derided and made fun of.

I quoted a comment from a video (which I didn't even watch) which used the word stupid, and that may have appeared to be ridicule of you or others. If so, I apologize. I hope you will feel free to post your serious comments and be assured that they will be treated appropriately. The comment I offered had nothing to do with the topic at hand. I was just reflecting on LCD's viewpoint and mentioning how expectations have changed. Silver Asiatic

JVL So that you don’t have to scroll through hundreds of posts I’ve done it for you. Here are the relevant posts for you and others if they want to check out who is being disingenuous, 67, 72, 73,74, 86 ,90( notice how I directly and specifically answered your questions) 127 (So, I guess, for me, a woman is who ever wants to claim the title) Here in 200 you reversed yourself “LOL. Change your mind? By your own words the only evidence required is that one person lays title to one of the 72. They are no more absurd than your position that a woman is anyone who “claims title” “What I meant was: if you want to call yourself that, be my guest.” Vivid vividbleau

JVL “You seem unhealthily concerned with my personal opinion which has no influence or effect just about anywhere. “ Not at all. I just want you to do what you said you would do “Vividbleau: Well I did answer your question first even though it was not a question directed to me. Rather than pick at nits as to who should go first I answered your questions and was quite specific in my answers to you. So how about doing what you said to me you would do which was to answer my question to you, which was first BTW” Now I am some kind of voyeur with an obsessive interest in your personal opinion.? I just want you to fulfill your promise which I did not force you to make. I was quite satisfied with your answer ( although I found it to be absurd) that a woman is anyone who claims title and even thanked you for your cogent response remember this? “JVL “Thank you for your honest, cogent and forthright answer to my question” That was until you reversed yourself and said that was not what you meant, then reversed yourself again and I asked for confirmation that indeed you were back to defining a woman as anyone who takes title. If you don’t want to give me your definition or confirm your original definition just say so but don’t make me the bad guy and insinuate that I have some unhealthy interest in your personal opinions. Either give me a different definition, confirm your original definition or state the obvious which is you cannot define what a woman is. Take your pick. Vivid vividbleau

https://www.liveaction.org/news/infant-bodies-infanticide-attempted-abortions/ Lieutenant Commander Data

JVL, an age where, a million of our living posterity in the womb are slaughtered every week, tainting government, law, education, courts, police, medicine, nursing and more is already beyond mere indictment as a neo-barbarian era, a dark and bloody age. Next, 4th gen war is shadow war, with a broad spectrum of means, a video camera and news report or a court case, or a street incident, or a financial investment, or a hacking attack or build up of social media dominance then imposition of censorship, or the spreading of a pandemic and exploiting it to impose agendas, or tainting elections, etc can be even more effective as operations than rolling massed panzers across borders with Me 109's and Stukas overhead. There are but few front lines, it is extremely non linear. The point of war is subjugation - or, blocking it -- and if less overt means work better at lower risk of nuke conflagration, then they are more effective. The rich rule over the poor and the borrower is a slave to the lender. Mao's coup in 1966 is a capital early case of how a civil war looks these days, cultural revolution. As for colour revolution, the theme colour for the US is black. The destabilisation and subversion in progress map closely to Egypt and I believe some of the same actors were engaged. The Ukraine 2004 report by McFaul and his wider analysis of colour revolution speak for themselves. I now doubt there was a clean colour revolution aside from maybe Philippines in the 80s. There is more. The geostrategic picture speaks, too, where the E Europe pivot area is back in active conflict, as Tsar Putin wants to get back to dominating the zone, with better economics to exploit the biggest continental base. That does not mean the Africa grab is not already in progress. ME and China's offshore belt of islands are in play too, the Taiwan grab is definitely being contemplated. The common denominator is, the US Navy is the barrier to what several geostrategic vultures want, so reduciing it to turmoil is a powerful strategic move. More can be raised. KF kairosfocus

Ram, stolen language, the newspeak game. KF kairosfocus

SA, you will see Siger of Brabant -- who clashed with TA -- and one certain William of Occam there. Renaissance is pivotal in following the line of humanism, the reformation was in the key part a refocus on scripture as key. Enlightenment comes after 150 years of war and polarisation over religion with no one looking good. Nominalism is part of the frame but not all, I think the one and many challenge is key and recall this includes good vs evils; nature vs grace was just one, early form, the underlying is Thales' one and many. That also speaks to hinduism etc. Rise of skepticism and the notion it is an intellectual VIRTUE is also relevant, leading to deism and rise of atheism, where Darwin -- but not Wallace -- fed the atheistical trend. Early modern science and the concept thinking God's thoughts after him is worth pondering.. I think we need to think in terms of the civil peace of justice, due balance of rights, freedoms, duties, which respects individual, family and community, with due role for govt. Of course Cicero saw key things on built in naturally evident law. Then the 7 mtns allows us to think structurally now as does the geostrat picture. KF kairosfocus

KF @231 That is a helpful sketch. I agree with Schaeffer’s line from the 1800s "downward". You and I disagree on the progression from the 600 years after Aquinas - for example, William of Ockham split with Thomistic ideas, leading to the split of nature and grace as you indicated. He was a Nominalist along with Abelard which broke apart philosophical realism - from that, it's the primacy of the individual and subjectivism ... directly to Calvin and Luther, and that's what I see at the root of the Enlightenment - Decartes, Locke, Hume, Kant - and picking up the Line of Despair from the 1800s. Silver Asiatic

Ram You're probably right that we don't have much choice against those types. So, we have to do something. But in the bigger picture, the radical left took over the universities and entertainment and media and everybody just went along with how they redefined everything. So, now they control the dialogue and nobody knows what a woman is anymore. This site (and the DI) is part of the alternative media where at least we don't get silenced for speaking the truth. Silver Asiatic

Since it's pretty clear that there is no real point in my trying to honestly and seriously reply to your many queries because I'll only be derided and made fun of. Seriously, if you're just going to make fun why bother to ask the questions in the first place? Just to make yourselves feel good: yup, those evo-tards really are that stupid. In the future please indicate whether or not you intend on at least being respectful. Can you do that at least? JVL

SA: We can just refer to people as men or women. You obviously haven't been on a university campus in a while. Or Disneyland. The radical leftoids will argue, deny and deflect all day about what a "woman" is. But they can't do that with when you get to basic facts of chromosomes and anatomy. Penises and vaginas. Ovary packers and ovary lackers. XX and XY. It's that simple. It works like a charm against the radical leftoid attempts at perverting the language. --RAM ram

SA, you raise an interesting question on roots and history of ideas. I have actually found an adaptation and extension of Francis Schaeffer's Line of Despair concept and sketch is helpful, along with several related ideas: https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/philosophy/francis-schaeffers-line-of-despair-model-of-our-civilisations-intellectual-history/ KF kairosfocus

Ram It's starting to seem like you enjoy posting a certain word. I think we got your point. But also, I suggest that it's simpler than that. We can just refer to people as men or women. We don't need to reference their anatomy. Men should never infringe on womens' spaces because they want to be good men and be respectful of women. Women should not want to go into mens' locker rooms to interview sports stars while they are taking a shower either. That was a feminist trick. Supposedly, all men should be fine with having a woman come into their locker room (or sleep in their military barracks) because supposedly only women would be offended by that kind of intrusion of privacy. I know a lot of men who disagree. Silver Asiatic

LCD

“I support the curent thing and endorse whatever stupid thing my government do. Why ? Because otherwise I will be marginalised, punished and I couldn’t exercise my virtue signalling to feel myself an atheist saint. This would be the end for me and my atheistic worldview. “

It started out that they wanted to do whatever the woke, hipster, Gnostic-celebrity cult would tell them so that they could be part of the cult themselves, and therefore gain all of the benefits of being a member. They wanted to be the ones laughing along with the late-night comedians and not the ones being laughed at. But it has changed. Now, you don't only lose membership in Club Cool, but you will be punished and people will hate you and blame you for all of the evils in the world.. Silver Asiatic

Again, I remind everyone... No penises in non-penis spaces. Period. The vast majority of non-penis holders are very uncomfortable with penis-holders invading their non-penis spaces. Be respectful and go where penises are welcome. There are lots of those spaces. It really is that simple. Thank you in advance. --RAM ram

JVL

You can speculate all you like but you don’t live here and you don’t experience things here on a daily basis. There is no civilisation crisis. None.

I know quite a lot of people in England, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany, France and Italy (a belong to an international organization and communicate with them) -- and they disagree with you strongly. They tell me it is a serious crisis and their viewpoint is oppressed with hostility.

We are not shooting at each other anymore.

That's good at least in the Irish situation but I don't know if immigration from Islamic nations is necessarily yielding the peace that some would want or expect either.

Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union everything west of Russia and Belarus (with the recent exception of Ukraine) has been very, very good. If Europe is crumbling it’s hiding it well.

Western Europe and USA need to take responsibility to some extent for that war. Thinking, for example, that NATO played no role in it is blindness. A move from the most peaceful time in the history of Europe to a nuclear war that could annihilate entire nations is not more than a few steps away. Silver Asiatic

"I support the curent thing and endorse whatever stupid thing my government do. Why ? Because otherwise I will be marginalised, punished and I couldn't exercise my virtue signalling to feel myself an atheist saint. This would be the end for me and my atheistic worldview. " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nENkNMvckak PS: I guess this is a kind of perversion that mimics free will of woke society but in fact there is no free will for woke types it's like you should agree EXACTLY what the the government says on legacy media or...highway. But was their choice to give up their own free will for the sake of wokeism party. Lieutenant Commander Data

Silver Asiatic: Some will think that Europe is doing well, but what has happened is that traditional Christian culture has been suppressed, so the “peace” is accomplished through hostility, and that’s never going to last long. Take a look at the far-right emergence in so-called peaceful and tolerant European nations and we’ll see how the backlash emerges. The peace is not accomplished through hostility! This is just not true. I don't think you guys understand what it's like in western Europe. Even the Church of England is generally in support of what you might call alternate lifestyles. The far-right groups (which do exist, I won't deny that) are primarily focused on preventing immigration, i.e. they are more racist than anti-trans. You can speculate all you like but you don't live here and you don't experience things here on a daily basis. There is no civilisation crisis. None. We're all fine. We have free and fair elections, we have decent homes and wifi. We have very good health care and social care. We are not shooting at each other anymore. We do not have widespread civil unrest and discord. Europe is at its most peaceful EVER. And, the western part anyway, has been that way for decades. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union everything west of Russia and Belarus (with the recent exception of Ukraine) has been very, very good. If Europe is crumbling it's hiding it well. JVL

Replying to several of Vivid's comments at once ...

While others focus on the horse KF focuses on who opened the door? Because if you don’t close that barn door and find who opened the door were all going to get trampled in the stampede.

True. It's not about trying to blame people, but rather, learning about who opened the door to the chaos because they will continue to damage our society in even worse and more destructive ways. Already they want to destroy the innocence of children in classrooms (this is the group that denies that a pregnant woman is carrying a baby so destroying children's lives is part of it).

JVL I don’t think you appreciate how angry moms are regarding this abusive behavior targeting their children.

This is hopeful because angry moms have more power than we might think. It wasn't the moms' fault (although many of them tolerate gay marriage and then wonder why there is gender confusion) and if the right to protect one's own children is taken away, there aren't many privacy rights left.

My advice to them was this. As hard as it is for them with their jobs and raising children they must become activists, they should focus on one thing and one thing only, the school board. They must vote out the current school board members who are abusing their children.

That's a good suggestion. Put laser-like focus on cleaning up the schools. The problem with our participatory democracy is that is requires people to be active in all these public affairs. So, families that spend time caring for their children lose a voice unless they're activists (where do they get the time?). So, the anti-family coalition have time and resources to play in the political arena and they run unchecked. This is how the gay-lobby got so much power. They have two incomes, no kids and can build networks and spend lots of time and money on politics. Meanwhile, families with kids get pushed around and manipulated.

I’m not afraid at all but I am very sad to watch Western Civilization commit suicide. It is beyond decadent, it’s crumbling, the center is not holding.

That's true. At the same time, I look to certain causes of the suicide and I see that they cannot survive themselves. The truth will win out, although it can cost a lot of suffering. I see a rebirth of good things amid the rubble. I also, taking your advice of researching "who" or "what" was responsible for the suicide - trace it back in history and see where the decadent forces came in. Western civilization became strong because of some principles and beliefs, and is now collapsing because of the loss of those. I take a different starting point than (I think) you and KF and most others, but I still lament the breakdown of Europe and North America.

I have first hand experience that if you don’t agree with the dominant narrative that men who think they are women are women your job is indeed in jeopardy.

People wonder "what harm is it?" - but if we have our society simply willing to accept a blatan lie and illusion (these are people who think the idea of God is a fairy tale) - when you stop believing in God you start believing in nonsense. But it's not benign nonsense. People will be persecuted for these lies (as they are already) and childrens' lives damaged. It's child abuse and a complete distortion of reality presented as the new religious doctrine. Not to mention, that trust in public authority will continue to decline, as it is for the mainstream media. Then people have to seek other media outlets that support the truth - so society fractures. Some will think that Europe is doing well, but what has happened is that traditional Christian culture has been suppressed, so the "peace" is accomplished through hostility, and that's never going to last long. Take a look at the far-right emergence in so-called peaceful and tolerant European nations and we'll see how the backlash emerges. Silver Asiatic

On culture and colour revolutions see here https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/l-fp-49-the-reichstag-fire-panic-lesson-on-agit-prop-and-lawfare/ Take particular note on McFaul's critique of Ukraine c 2005, in the State Dept archives as excerpted, also the SOCOM insurgency escalator. kairosfocus

JVL, The problem remains (as you imply), that is why we need sound, lawful government; which is being eroded. And, we are dealing with a power backed agenda of abuses and usurpations clearly designed to pervert, benumb and dehumanise, undermining lawfulness and soundness. Projections to the outsider treated as a threat boil down to confession by projection. As for the state of our civilisation, the fact that the by far worst holocaust in history proceeds at a million more victims per week while many pretend all is well is enough answer. In actuality, we have been in a slow burn, 4th gen so far low kinetic global war with the US colour revolution push and civil war as a theatre of operations with intent to defang the power most able to stop the global agenda. The US Navy, alas, is all we have left to hold the line, the Royal Navy having retired. I have already pointed out that power backed untruth is the gateway to injustice and you know that technology enabled surveillance state makes for a far tighter grip on power for lawless oligarchy. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: Criminals and the violent insane or sexually addicted who become sexual predators — here we just locked up a former Chief Minister and prominent lawyer — are not deterred or restrained by community conversations. That's been true as far back as humans have existed. When communities are twisted into pushing power backed untruth, they are already well down the slippery slope of injustice under lawless ideological oligarchy. Think, 1984. The novel 1984 by Eric Blair was more concerned with surveillance and those in power staying in power. I don't think the few trans-individuals are spying on anyone or going for a power grab. We are now invited — intimidated actually — to deny the manifest facts of sex determination by the XY system. No, you are just being asked to be kind and understanding to some of your fellow human beings who honestly experience gender dysphoria, a documented and recognised psychological condition. You said we should treat those with ambiguous physical sexual presentation with the best medical care and understanding. Well, that's all anyone is asking you to do with those with gender dysphoria. Did you see the course of events in various colour revolutions over recent decades? Ukraine, Egypt and increasingly clearly the USA spring to mind. I have no idea what you mean by 'colour' revolutions. Surely you cannot be drawing parallels between the Ukraine and the US? If you are then you'd best spell them out 'cause I just don't get it. There was a fairly small riot on Jan 6, 2021, no excuse for that and proper safeguards ahead of time were inexcusably rejected by Congressional leadership, I only point to that there is evidence of agent provocateur as an aspect also. There certainly was a lack of decent and normal policing but I heard it was partially rejected by the office of the President who could also, credibly, be consider a provoker. Those people really believed President Trump's claims, they really listened to him when he said they can't be weak, they have to show strength. I'm surprised he was brought up on charges of treason. But when ruthless powers get their hands on an agit prop Many would say that fits President Trump quite nicely. From Summer of 2020, I have come to the view that the US has been in a low kinetic, agit prop, street theatre and lawfare heavy 4th generation civil war using dirty colour revolution tactics and Mao’s Red Guard coup approaches, since about 2017. Yes, I know you think that; you've said as much over and over and over and over again. That doesn't mean you're right, not about the US or about the rest of the world. You look at every single bit of conflict and claim evidence . . . what about the vast majority of the US population who, a vast majority of the time are going about doing their jobs, taking care of their children, mowing their lawns, going on holiday when they can afford it, shouting at their favourite football team on Sunday, voting, etc. It's a strange kind of civil breakdown I think. Part of why I say this, is I am an eyewitness to a similar but more kinetic civil war from 1976 to 80 in my native land. I know what red guard tactics, agit prop, street theatre, lawfare, media manipulation, Communist subversion, denial of unfolding shadow war etc look like because I lived through same. Sure, you were there, at the time. But you don't live in the US, you don't live in Europe. You pick up on some news stories and some interpretations of news stories and you project your own personal experiences outward. You, personally, probably find it really difficult not to do so. But that doesn't make your projection true. Civilisation is NOT crumbling. In Western Europe, in Canada, in Australia, in New Zealand, in Japan even in some Central and South American countries it's just fine. Africa . . . I'm just glad I don't live there. Eastern Europe . . . until the Russian bear is caged that's going to be a problem but the problem comes from an external source NOT the permissive policies within the satellite countries. China still wants to push its weight around but seems to accept that it has be done more subtly. The fundamentalist Islamic states are pretty horrid but they are so bad at technology and modern anything I don't think they are threatening our civilised countries. Besides, the recent Russian invasion in Ukraine has pointed out that the civilised countries in the world can band together and lock out the countries who are causing problems. I'd say civilisation is better off now than it's ever been. I live in a continent that for millennia every so often some nation decided to kill a bunch of their neighbours in other countries. West of the Russian block that's ended now and there is ZERO indication that will ever happen again. When has that ever been true before in any such large region in the world? Never. JVL

JVL, rabbit trail. KF kairosfocus

Vividbleau & Kairosfocus: During the American Civil War there are documented cases of woman saying they were men so that they could fight. They dressed like men, they try to act like men, they ate with men, slept in the same tents, used the same privies. If you were there at the time (not now, not with your current perspective) how would you have treated them if you found them out? Does it matter that it was women choosing to pretend to be men? Would it be that much different if a man during that same conflict didn't want to fight so pretended/acted/presented as a women? Is all fair in war but not otherwise? As long as it's temporary it's okay? Is allowing that kind of gender-bending not the first step onto the slippery slope you envision? JVL

Vividbleau: So I am clear we are back to your answer to what is a woman is anyone who claims title correct? You seem unhealthily concerned with my personal opinion which has no influence or effect just about anywhere. Sigh. As far as I am concerned if someone wants to call themselves a woman and they are not doing it out of intent to harm or manipulate or cheat then it's fine with me. If your head hurts perhaps you should have a nice walk in a forest. Clear your head a bit. JVL

The big dogs speak about pushing big changes https://www.facebook.com/GlennBeck/videos/677097893613229/?extid=CL-UNK-UNK-UNK-AN_GK0T-GK1C&ref=sharing World Govertnment Summit 2022 opening with Klaus Schwab. Some Economist and apparently 2nd gen advisor to US Presidents talks of blockchain based digital currency giving an almost perfect record of every transaction in the economy. Surveillance and control, censorship social credit state, here we come. Fools, demonically deluded fools. kairosfocus

F/N: On the Reichstag Fire https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/l-fp-49-the-reichstag-fire-panic-lesson-on-agit-prop-and-lawfare/ kairosfocus

JVL, 1: Criminals and the violent insane or sexually addicted who become sexual predators -- here we just locked up a former Chief Minister and prominent lawyer -- are not deterred or restrained by community conversations. 2: When communities are twisted into pushing power backed untruth, they are already well down the slippery slope of injustice under lawless ideological oligarchy. Think, 1984. 3: JVL, it is happening and many are led to imagine that enabling untruth is the right thing to do or at least the safe thing personally. Burke was right that what is needed to enable evil to triumph is for the good to stand by. After Nazi Germany and the USSR, we should have learned. As for various agendas and impositions under colour of law, there are no nine sided hexagons. We are now invited -- intimidated actually -- to deny the manifest facts of sex determination by the XY system. We are not grouper fish, which do change sex, biological reproduction is based on complementary sexes, marriage is based on our biology and requisites of child development with a dimension of civilising the males of our species and more. The human male is the most dangerous predator to walk this planet, ever. 4: Did you see the course of events in various colour revolutions over recent decades? Ukraine, Egypt and increasingly clearly the USA spring to mind. 5: There was a fairly small riot on Jan 6, 2021, no excuse for that and proper safeguards ahead of time were inexcusably rejected by Congressional leadership, I only point to that there is evidence of agent provocateur as an aspect also. Where, even violent criminals much less minor offenders, for cause, have rights and protections in the legal and police systems . . . now being patently eroded through the process is the punishment amplified by media lynching. . In 1933 there was arson at the Reichstag, I believe it was one demented youth. But when ruthless powers get their hands on an agit prop and lawfare opportunity, a Reichstag fire becomes a vast conspiracy of overthrow that leads to show trials and a panicked government passing an enabling act. A small riot, comparable to others in the same place and nowhere near a summer of Red Guards running riot and being enabled by media and pols, was suddenly an INSURRECTION -- manifestly false -- and has been used to hound and target people in destructive ways, while eroding further civil protections. 6: From Summer of 2020, I have come to the view that the US has been in a low kinetic, agit prop, street theatre and lawfare heavy 4th generation civil war using dirty colour revolution tactics and Mao's Red Guard coup approaches, since about 2017. Dirty colour revolution tactics include -- and Ukraine is a specific example duly entered in the US Congress Archives -- correspondence voting as a means of twisting election outcomes. At this point, the only credibly sound elections are based on in person, validated ID, dip thumb in indelible UV ink, paper ballot voting, counted by hand with proper close at hand multiple scrutineers. The net result is, loss of legitimacy of officialdom, elected, civil service, judicial, policing etc. The media are by and large tainted and the techno oligarchs have imposed censorship and social credit systems. Do not overlook Mr Trudeau's tactics recently, it is not just the US. And we are seeing fatal disaffection crouching at the door. 7: Part of why I say this, is I am an eyewitness to a similar but more kinetic civil war from 1976 to 80 in my native land. I know what red guard tactics, agit prop, street theatre, lawfare, media manipulation, Communist subversion, denial of unfolding shadow war etc look like because I lived through same. A generation later, that land still reels from the chaos just as France spent C19 in recovery from its revolution. 8: De Nile is a river in Egypt. KF kairosfocus

JVL “That’s the best answer I have I’m afraid” The answer you gave was that a woman is anyone who claims title to being a woman. Then you said that’s not what you meant. Now your saying that’s is what you meant. My head hurts. So I am clear we are back to your answer to what is a woman is anyone who claims title correct? Vivid vividbleau

Vividbleau: From the article you linked to:

The FBI has responded to all this by saying that it “has never been in the business of investigating parents who speak out or policing speech at school board meetings, and we are not going to start now,” and that it remains “fully committed to preserving and protecting First Amendment rights, including freedom of speech.”

And the article hints that there is some question in its assertion: look at the title of the article . . . "Are parents being tagged . . ." IF it is happening then it should be looked at. But it seems that the case has not been shown, yet. Keep in mind the FBI tried to orchestrate a silent coup against a duly elected President. Which president? If you mean President Trump in 2020 may I point out that no court and no US government organisation of any kind has endorsed the idea that the election was stolen. You choose to believe it was but isn't your actual evidence just hearsay and people like President Trump who, on the record, called officials in Georgia to beg them to find more votes? You can't just keep saying: the lack of evidence is evidence. I have first hand experience that if you don’t agree with the dominant narrative that men who think they are women are women your job is indeed in jeopardy. Not my job. Nor is anyone's job in Europe that I am aware of. It seems to me that the US is currently struggling to figure out how to learn to accommodate some widely varying points of view; a difficult project especially when some people say it's their way or no way. And yes, I appreciate that that point can apply to both 'sides'. My point is that there are no 'sides'. You guys, all of you, just need to learn to set aside your anger and fear and find some workable compromises. OR you can riot in the streets, shout at each other, name and shame each other, build gated communities, etc. Your country, your call. JVL

https://www.portlandhomeschoolingresources.com https://www.powerhomeschool.org/homeschooling-by-state/oregon/ https://www.oregon.gov/ode/learning-options/HomeSchool/Pages/default.aspx https://portlandreloguide.com/homeschooling-in-oregon/ Some of the above websites have links to other resources and organisations. It sounds like there is lots of help and places that can greatly facilitate those who want to home school. As you can see the state has a clearly defined procedure to follow as well. As I said, I have personal experience of some excellent home schooled students in the Tacoma area and I would encourage anyone who is unhappy with their local public schools to at least look into the options available to themselves. JVL

Kairosfocus: Recall, power backed untruth is a gateway to injustice. (Notice what Vivid is reporting on a city in the US). I have a friend who lives in the same city and their impressions are much different. I, personally, cannot affirm or deny either version but I do note that they exist. It is obvious that you have not noticed how it has come up in the US Congress that parents raising questions about school boards were targetted or potentially targetted by the FBI. All it takes is a bit of agit prop that gets you as target of accusations. The US has poor protection against defamation, that is implicit background. It's true I am not fully aware of everything that goes on in the US but I am not aware that any parent has been forced out of their jobs or hauled off to jail. I would expect the FBI to track individuals they thought might be violent or had made threats to others, not saying any of those things were true. Without knowing the details of any particular case all I can do is speculate which is just about worthless, obviously. Home schooling can be a serious challenge, support groups notwithstanding. It is a major lifestyle commitment and for decades, alternative schools have been targetted by activists and too often officialdom. The ability to twist schools into indoctrination centres is too central to the obvious long train of abuses and usurpations. Yes, it is a serious and long-term challenge and commitment. I have known families who have done it very successfully with the help of an excellent network in the Tacoma area. I suspect such a thing exists in Portland as well. If I were a parent who would consider such a thing I would certainly spend some time seeing if something like that exists. JVL

JVL Yes really https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/are-parents-being-tagged-domestic-terrorists-the-fbi-justice Keep in mind the FBI tried to orchestrate a silent coup against a duly elected President. I have first hand experience that if you don’t agree with the dominant narrative that men who think they are women are women your job is indeed in jeopardy. Vivid vividbleau

Kairosfocus: degree of threat is directly related to context, and general removal of the ladies room as a safe space by allowing men to effectively access at will under colours of a patently false to fact identity is — as you must know — an invitation to trouble. The activists and their backers also know this, so we must reckon it a part of power backed untruth intended to impose injustice. I would say that communities need to have conversations about things and everyone who has a concern should take the time to let their views be heard. By the way, I know quite a few women who don't like using public toilets because they are just not that clean. I suspect a lot of women don't use public toilets unless absolutely necessary. this is what the crumbling of the BATNA of lawfulness looks like, leading to a slide into lawless ideological oligarchy But it's just not happening! Have you been to Europe with its national health care systems, its widespread tolerance for same-sex couples and trans-sex people, etc? You are aware that, even now, most police officers in the UK do not carry a firearm? The crumbling anarchy you claim to see is just not happening. Could it be that you see chaos and anarchy in countries that seem to need a firmer hand whereas other, older societies have learned how to get along with each other a bit better? Don;t forget, we already saw red guard mobs in the street, with obvious backing and we have seen a reichstag fire agitprop and lawfare incident (with the latest being a man hounded into suicide, the gestapo and kangaroo courts don’t have to come to your door at 4 am to be effective). Not where I live. Not many places in Europe. By the way, the hounding can cut both ways. There are cases of homosexual individuals being shamed and hounded to death. There are cases of overweight girls trying to commit suicide because of online harassment. Do you endorse groups like the Westboro Baptist Church which love naming and shaming those they disagree with? Do you endorse President Trump when he talks about grabbing women in their privates? Do you endorse those who stormed the US Capitol building on January 6th, 2021 chanting they wanted to hang some duly elected public officials and trashing public facilities? Do you think, even as a reaction to perceived slights, that such behaviour is ever justified? I suppose you would say yes IF someone really believed that the 2020 election was stolen . . . but that never was shown to be true was it? If it was stolen then why did President Trump, on the record, phone the officials of Georgia to beg them to find some more votes, somehow. Was that the method or procedure of a lawful and sensible person? You have your opinion and you have a forum on which you can proclaim your opinion and give support for it. You are not censored or raided or hauled off to jail. It would be easy enough to arrange if someone really wanted to. But that's not happening is it? This forum has been around for over 15 years now with no legal or state-sponsored retaliation or censorship for its participants. Not for what they say and do here anyway. JVL

JVL, as you are commenting in an open forum, I too will respond: 1: That our civilisation is being dragged into disputes like what is a woman, in the teeth of not only obvious facts but science in evidence is a strong sign that foundations are being deliberately eroded by the jacobins. 2: Recall, power backed untruth is a gateway to injustice. (Notice what Vivid is reporting on a city in the US). 3: It is obvious that you have not noticed how it has come up in the US Congress that parents raising questions about school boards were targetted or potentially targetted by the FBI. All it takes is a bit of agit prop that gets you as target of accusations. The US has poor protection against defamation, that is implicit background. 4: This leads to the notorious chilling effect. And for your typical, indebted, mortgaged person, just an implied risk is more than enough to get that going. 5: Home schooling can be a serious challenge, support groups notwithstanding. It is a major lifestyle commitment and for decades, alternative schools have been targetted by activists and too often officialdom. The ability to twist schools into indoctrination centres is too central to the obvious long train of abuses and usurpations. KF PS, A commenter on what can happen in a the process is the punishment judicial system:

Just a little education for the people who don't know what happens after an arrest: 1. You are arrested. 2. You will sit in a jail for sometimes as long as 3 years. That is the average time now. 3. You can get bond. Maybe. If you do, you will have to pony up on average between $10,000 to $100,000. 4. You will be put on work restrictions while on bond. Your house can be raided. 5. You will more than likely lose your job. 6. You will have to hire a lawyer on retainer and that is not cheap. 7. Over the course of the aforementioned 3 years before your trial, the DA will threaten you with bogus charges. 8. By the time you get in a courtroom, you are broke, tired and suffering from PTSD really. 9. You will plead out. 99.97% of all people do. I see this scenario over and over and over and over again. That is the real world. Not what you see in the news or on TV or in articles that idiots write on news sites. You better have deep pockets if you think you will win in an American courtroom. Very deep pockets.

kairosfocus

Vividbleau: Fair enough however that means you have not yet answered my question which you said you would do “what is a woman”? That's the best answer I have I'm afraid. My comment about not taking gender identities seriously was (mostly) directed at some of the really goofy ones on that list. I do believe that the case for some situations has been established. Regardless, I still don't see how it affects me or my family. It’s not about values it’s about embracing non reality. I don't think you've made your case that western civilisation is crumbling. You should spend some time in Europe sometime. They are afraid they will lose their jobs and be put on a terrorist watch list, this is Portland we are talking about. I'm sorry, I have a hard time taking that fear seriously. Just for attending board meetings, having your say and putting forward candidates? Really? Your right home schooling and moving is not possible. I would check on home schooling support groups. They might find it's easier than they thought. I am personally aware of networks in the Tacoma area that, in the past, helped parents who wanted to home school by finding and sharing teachers and homes. JVL

JVL, this is what the crumbling of the BATNA of lawfulness looks like, leading to a slide into lawless ideological oligarchy. And it is not merely anecdotal, when a pattern is widespread, it is not hard to encounter it. Think about naked online censorship and labels attached to those the technoplutocrats and bureaurats -- deliberate -- don't like. Don;t forget, we already saw red guard mobs in the street, with obvious backing and we have seen a reichstag fire agitprop and lawfare incident (with the latest being a man hounded into suicide, the gestapo and kangaroo courts don't have to come to your door at 4 am to be effective). KF kairosfocus

Vivid, so we see the intimidation factor, policing power is being warped as part of injustice built on power backed untruth. Of course, enablers, conveniently, are in denial of unwelcome realities as degree of threat for standing up for truth mounts. So much for rights if exercising freedom of conscience, association and expression gets you on terrorism watch lists, a target for federal scrutiny [notice recent reported cases of speaking out at School Board meetings . . . chilling effect], exposed to job loss and likely mounting legal expenses with serious doubts you will get genuine justice in court. Why are your relatives not up in arms, along with their whole communities, about loss of basic rights? De Nile is a river in Egypt. KF kairosfocus

JVL, degree of threat is directly related to context, and general removal of the ladies room as a safe space by allowing men to effectively access at will under colours of a patently false to fact identity is -- as you must know -- an invitation to trouble. The activists and their backers also know this, so we must reckon it a part of power backed untruth intended to impose injustice. KF kairosfocus

JVL “While I would probably disagree that shared bathrooms (common in English reception classes) and mask wearing are abusive I would say that those parents should do what they can to influence and affect their school board.” They are afraid they will lose their jobs and be put on a terrorist watch list, this is Portland we are talking about. “ And, in the worst case, move their children to someplace else IF that is a possibility. Sometimes that is not a possibility. I realise how hard it is to home school” Your right home schooling and moving is not possible. Vivid vividbleau

Vivid and JVL, the two lists obviously come from the same root source, as I showed at 191. KF kairosfocus

JVL “What I meant was: if you want to call yourself that, be my guest” Fair enough however that means you have not yet answered my question which you said you would do “what is a woman”? “Just because your own values are becoming more marginal doesn’t mean the whole show is collapsing.” It’s not about values it’s about embracing non reality. Vivid vividbleau

Vividbleau: But what really shocked me was how angry they were over what their children have suffered with the masks and they are absolutely livid regarding shared bathrooms. JVL I don’t think you appreciate how angry moms are regarding this abusive behavior targeting their children. My advice to them was this. As hard as it is for them with their jobs and raising children they must become activists, they should focus on one thing and one thing only, the school board. They must vote out the current school board members who are abusing their children. While I would probably disagree that shared bathrooms (common in English reception classes) and mask wearing are abusive I would say that those parents should do what they can to influence and affect their school board. And, in the worst case, move their children to someplace else IF that is a possibility. Sometimes that is not a possibility. I realise how hard it is to home school but, in my experience, in the Pacific Northwest there are many resources and shared personnel for those wishing to home school. Back in the 90s I attended a graduation ceremony for home schooled high schoolers that was attended by 100s of kids and their parents. LOL. Change your mind? By your own words the only evidence required is that one person lays title to one of the 72. They are no more absurd than your position that a woman is anyone who “claims title” What I meant was: if you want to call yourself that, be my guest. It doesn't imply that I have to take you seriously in my own mind. I will try and be respectful and courteous as always. I believe that the psychological case has been made for some gender dysphoria but some of those on that list . . . call me skeptical. I’m not afraid at all. Western Civilization is beyond decadent, it’s crumbling, the center is not holding. A society cannot adopt non reality as reality and escape it’s consequences. You seem to think it can, good luck with that. I'm seeing it flourish and be strong in Europe! After millennia of killing each other, most recently in living memory, much of Europe is now peaceful and cooperative. Many countries have universal, state-level health care, good schools, good social programmes, fair and honest elections, good standards of living. Where is this crumbling happening? Just because your own values are becoming more marginal doesn't mean the whole show is collapsing. JVL

Ram “Again, no penises in non-penis spaces. It really is that simple.” Yes it is. Vivid vividbleau

JVL “Political, policy making, you must vote! If you are concerned then make sure your views are heard. “ Ohh I’m voting no doubt about that. Over the weekend I had some liberal family members in town that live in Portland. I asked how bad things were there and they said “ worse than can be imagined” that it will take years if ever for Portland to come back. But what really shocked me was how angry they were over what their children have suffered with the masks and they are absolutely livid regarding shared bathrooms. JVL I don’t think you appreciate how angry moms are regarding this abusive behavior targeting their children. My advice to them was this. As hard as it is for them with their jobs and raising children they must become activists, they should focus on one thing and one thing only, the school board. They must vote out the current school board members who are abusing their children. “ Your link is much more serious than the one Kairosfocus provided . . . honestly I still can’t take some of those ‘genders’ seriously. BUT I’m willing to change my mind if the science and psychology back up the cases.” LOL. Change your mind? By your own words the only evidence required is that one person lays title to one of the 72. They are no more absurd than your position that a woman is anyone who “claims title” “You seem to be very afraid but I’m not.” I’m not afraid at all but I am very sad to watch Western Civilization commit suicide. It is beyond decadent, it’s crumbling, the center is not holding. A society cannot adopt non reality as reality and escape it’s consequences. You seem to think it can, good luck with that. Vivid vividbleau

Again, no penises in non-penis spaces. It really is that simple. --Ram ram

SA, it is the authorities who acted. KF kairosfocus

KF

Sc, you are being abusive and over the line with snide and utterly unnecessary, uncivil commentary. This is your single warning.

Thank you for your attention to this and for moderating him quickly. I wanted to flag his post somehow - the product of a perverted mind (which is not surprising) but I'm glad you saw it anyway and took decisive actions. Silver Asiatic

Sandy: We know that JVL thinks that the vaccines are good and the Russians are bad and everything legacy media tell him to be true I do think vaccines are good because of the science not the media although some outlets do do a good job discussing the science. The Russian people are much like anyone else, their current leader and his acolytes are pretty horrible. After all JVL needs mental stability have to believe whatever goverment [sic]/ science tell him because in his mind goverment [sic]/ science has replaced God ? and you can’t afford to believe that God’s surrogate lied to you because that would mean to be anxious and if you are anxious long enough you became sick . Clearly you don't live in the UK and hear the ways the news agencies scrutinise and tear-apart the politicians and, sometimes, even the scientists. It's not your fault you don't live somewhere which has decent, factual media outlets but knee-jerk believing they are bad sounds a lot like what you are accusing me of, i.e. not thinking or looking at things critically. You don't really know me and I doubt you'll believe anything I tell you because you've closed your mind to things you think are corrupt or wrong but I never, ever take a single report or research paper or opinion as gospel truth. Too often I have seen a politician or a philosopher or a scientist gets something wrong; sometimes 'honestly', frequently because of being narrow minded. Like I said, no doubt you will continue to write me off as a deluded, lying, idiot because I disagree with you on some ideas you consider core indicators. I could do the same with you but I shall do my best to consider what you have to say objectively. I'd like to hope you would reciprocate but far be it for me to tell you what to do. You're an adult so you can make up your own mind. JVL

JVL Your link is much more serious than the one Kairosfocus provided . . . honestly I still can’t take some of those ‘genders’ seriously. BUT I’m willing to change my mind if the science and psychology back up the cases.

:) NPC. Pre-programmed robots that inform you about what tv told them to be true. If you want to know what NPC thinks just browse BBC,CNN,...We know that JVL thinks that the vaccines are good and the Russians are bad and everything legacy media tell him to be true . After all JVL needs mental stability have to believe whatever goverment/ science tell him because in his mind goverment/ science has replaced God :) and you can't afford to believe that God's surrogate lied to you because that would mean to be anxious and if you are anxious long enough you became sick . Sandy

H'mm:

trans-people[--> cultural marxist agendas] have a lot of support all over the planet

So, where are we being herded, why? 1984? See https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/media/to-get-change-create-or-exploit-a-crisis/ KF kairosfocus

Vivid, I see your list B, let's sample:

Agender: A person who does not identify themselves with or experience any gender. Agender people are also called null-gender, genderless, gendervoid, or neutral gender. Abimegender: Associated with being profound, deep, and infinite. The term abimegender may be used alone or in combination with other genders. Adamas gender: A gender that is indefinable or indomitable. People identifying with this gender refuse to be categorized in any particular gender identity. Aerogender: Also called evaisgender, this gender identity changes according to one’s surroundings. Aesthetigender: Also called aesthetgender, it is a type of gender identity derived from aesthetics. Affectugender: This is based on the person’s mood swings or fluctuations. Agenderflux: A person with this gender identity is mostly agender with brief shifts of belonging to other gender types. Alexigender: The person has a fluid gender identity between more than one type of gender although they cannot name the genders they feel fluid in. Aliusgender: This gender identity stands apart from existing social gender constructs. It means having a strong specific gender identity that is neither male nor female. Amaregender: Having a gender identity that changes depending on the person one is emotionally attached to. Ambigender: Having two specific gender identities simultaneously without any fluidity or fluctuations.

Now, let's compare the List A, first eleven:

Abimegender: a gender that is profound, deep, and infinite; meant to resemble when one mirror is reflecting into another mirror creating an infinite paradox Adamasgender: a gender which refuses to be categorized Aerogender: a gender that is influenced by your surroundings Aesthetigender: a gender that is derived from an aesthetic; also known as videgender Affectugender: a gender that is affected by mood swings Agender: the feeling of no gender/absence of gender or neutral gender Agenderflux: being mostly agender except having small shifts towards other genders making them demigenders (because of the constancy of being agender) Alexigender: a gender that is fluid between more than one gender but the individual cannot tell what those genders are Aliusgender: a gender which is removed from common gender descriptors and guidelines Amaregender: a gender that changes depending on who you’re in love with Ambigender: defined as having the feeling of two genders simultaneously without fluctuation; meant to reflect the concept of being ambidextrous, only with gender

They obviously come from the same root source. KF kairosfocus

JVL, the cultural marxist stampede is already happening right now. And, unfortunately if anarchy is let loose triggering a reaction that opens the door, or we directly slide into lawless oligarchy, freedom will be lost. It will only be bought again at a much higher price in blood as states are inherently so much more powerful today. KF kairosfocus

Scamp, having insisted on trollish conduct, is no longer with us. kairosfocus

Vividbleau: Honestly I don’t know what you mean. What conversation should I be participating in? Political, policy making, you must vote! If you are concerned then make sure your views are heard. And, I'd advise you do so NOT anonymously but that's up to you. Your link is much more serious than the one Kairosfocus provided . . . honestly I still can't take some of those 'genders' seriously. BUT I'm willing to change my mind if the science and psychology back up the cases. Because if you don’t close that barn door and find who opened the door were all going to get trampled in the stampede. I don't think that is happening or is going to happen. You seem to be very afraid but I'm not. I've got nothing else to say really. I shall attempt to reply to any serious and respectful questions if you choose to pose any. Thanks for your time. JVL

KF “Your problem, obviously, is that things on your preferred policy agenda are so open to subjectivity and relativism that satire and reality look about the same. Exactly. We are living in a world where non reality has replaced reality thus we see outrageous headlines that we know can’t be true but we find out they are. We tell ourselves this is a joke right.? But we find out it’s not a joke. Welcome to the end of western civilization. Vivid vividbleau

JVL “But, I’m telling you, trans-people have a lot of support all over the planet” Tell me something I don’t already know. “You’re not getting the horse back in the barn.” Yes the horse has bolted but who opened the door and how many horses are still in the barn? You all mock KF but he is spot on. While others focus on the horse KF focuses on who opened the door? Because if you don’t close that barn door and find who opened the door were all going to get trampled in the stampede. Vivid vividbleau

JVL, First, as I already highlighted, I FIRST MET THIS LIST OFFLINE IN A SERIOUS POLICY CONTEXT. Your problem, obviously, is that things on your preferred policy agenda are so open to subjectivity and relativism that satire and reality look about the same. The reason why, is that both are absurd. The underlying point, being, that once the invented notion, "gender" was snatched from Grammar and used to replace objective, XY chromosome determined sex, then we reduced matters to psycho social relativism and/or subjectivism. This then falls into, lo and behold, the absurdities of these approaches to thought, knowledge, ethics, policy. 1984 world, here we come. Let's pause to look at:

Transgender: any gender identity that transcends or does not align with your assigned gender or society’s idea of gender; the feeling of being any gender that does not match your assigned gender

This draws out the problem once we see that "assigned gender" is code for, one shows primary and secondary male or female characteristics and faces society's reasonable response that men are of the male sex and women are of the female sex, these being the complementary partners in reproduction. Where also, requisites of child nurture require stable heterosexual bonding and commitment at the core of family. So, we find frameworks that support this, in civilisations. But now, inject the jacobin radicalism, with intent to suspect, discredit, destroy and replace inconvenient traditions. We thus come to the switcheroo, sex is between your legs, gender is in your head (presumably, genetically coded in some subtle way like we saw with the futile search for so called gay genes). Of course, the incoherence that the manifestly genetically coded determination of sex is to be suppressed is glided over silently. Appeal is made to feelings, to identity. That is to subjectivity and to ideologised reframing with the implied narrative that traditional society is suspect and oppressive. Ask fish what they feel like about being freed from that oppressive context, water. We see clues as to underlying cultural marxism, i.e. the most widely found form of jacobinism. Since 1789, such ideologies routinely, predictably fail, becoming reigns of terror under lawless ideological oligarchy. And of course, you recognise absurdity. Nearly all of them are, INCLUDING the one now being pushed by power: transgender. Now too, JVL, guess why the sports exception? Because, well, as part of the general male body form, you tend to get higher athletic performance in many sports, and in the case of contact sports, the more delicate female skeletal structure causes obvious dangers. The result is unfair and sometimes dangerous contests. This is precisely why there was a categorisation of classes by age, sex and the like to begin with. In short, subjectivism and relativism are coming up short in the face of objective reality. In addition, body privacy is a key to widespread social participation of women. Hence, sexed bathrooms, a social innovation that reflects several objective realities. The original, justified, safe space. Where, women know that they are a natural prey for the most dangerous predator ever to walk this planet, the human male. Which is also part of why family structures are designed to protect women and girls, in key part. It is why there are social codes for gentlemanly and ladylike conduct, complete with rituals of reminder. Where too, sports are precisely a key context for training in fair play. So, naturally, misanthropic, anti civilisational, often poorly adjusted radicals target sports. The sports fiascos are warning signs of much wider, deeper problems. KF kairosfocus

JVL “Best start participating in the conversations instead of just trying to shut it all down.” Honestly I don’t know what you mean. What conversation should I be participating in? Shut what down? “Did anyone provide medical or research support for the list? It’s pretty clearly a joke.” https://www.medicinenet.com/what_are_the_72_other_genders/article.htm Vivid vividbleau

Clip: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9967/

Chromosomal Sex Determination in Mammals Primary and secondary sex determination Primary sex determination is the determination of the gonads. In mammals, primary sex determination is strictly chromosomal and is not usually influenced by the environment. In most cases, the female is XX and the male is XY. Every individual must have at least one X chromosome. Since the female is XX, each of her eggs has a single X chromosome. The male, being XY, can generate two types of sperm: half bear the X chromosome, half the Y. If the egg receives another X chromosome from the sperm, the resulting individual is XX, forms ovaries, and is female; if the egg receives a Y chromosome from the sperm, the individual is XY, forms testes, and is male. The Y chromosome carries a gene that encodes a testis-determining factor. This factor organizes the gonad into a testis rather than an ovary. Unlike the situation in Drosophila (discussed below), the mammalian Y chromosome is a crucial factor for determining sex in mammals. A person with five X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (XXXXXY) would be male. Furthermore, an individual with only a single X chromosome and no second X or Y (i.e., XO) develops as a female and begins making ovaries, although the ovarian follicles cannot be maintained. For a complete ovary, a second X chromosome is needed. In mammalian primary sex determination, there is no “default state.” The formation of ovaries and testes are both active, gene-directed processes. Moreover, as we shall see, both diverge from a common precursor, the bipotential gonad. Secondary sex determination affects the bodily phenotype outside the gonads. A male mammal has a penis, seminal vesicles, and prostate gland. A female mammal has a vagina, cervix, uterus, oviducts, and mammary glands. In many species, each sex has a sex-specific size, vocal cartilage, and musculature. These secondary sex characteristics are usually determined by hormones secreted from the gonads. However, in the absence of gonads, the female phenotype is generated. When Jost (1953) removed fetal rabbit gonads before they had differentiated, the resulting rabbits had a female phenotype, regardless of whether they were XX or XY. They each had oviducts, a uterus, and a vagina, and each lacked a penis and male accessory structures. The general scheme of mammalian sex determination is shown in Figure 17.2. If the Y chromosome is absent, the gonadal primordia develop into ovaries. The ovaries produce estrogen, a hormone that enables the development of the Müllerian duct into the uterus, oviducts, and upper end of the vagina. If the Y chromosome is present, testes form and secrete two major hormones. The first hormone—anti-Müllerian duct hormone (AMH; also referred to as Müllerian-inhibiting substance, MIS)—destroys the Müllerian duct. The second hormone—testosterone—masculinizes the fetus, stimulating the formation of the penis, scrotum, and other portions of the male anatomy, as well as inhibiting the development of the breast primordia. Thus, the body has the female phenotype unless it is changed by the two hormones secreted by the fetal testes.

Chromosomes and consequences . . . kairosfocus

Video summary on sex determination systems https://youtu.be/kMWxuF9YW38 kairosfocus

Vividbleau: Given your position that one’s gender is that which one chooses it to be I have no idea why you think it’s absurd? It’s no more absurd than Did you read the entries on the list? Some are clearly farcical. Did you follow the link given by Kairosfocus? Did anyone provide medical or research support for the list? It's pretty clearly a joke. Of course not you are I believe you are a man but it effects women and it effects me because it effects my family.For all the talk about not wanting men who think they are women to participate in sports that would be in direct opposition to title IX and against the law. I know a lot of women in Europe (where the law you refer to does not exist) who are completely in favour of trans-individuals. Except, as I mentioned, regarding sports and prisons where, as I admitted, a lot of work needs to be done. In fact, most people I know who are pro-trans rights agree that trans-women should NOT be allowed to participate in the womens' events. o now not only are women’s privacy rights violated but title IX which women fought so hard over are being gutted. But it doesn’t affect you so all is right in the world. America, like the rest of the world, has to discuss and debate such issues and come up with a solution so that no one gets hurt or has their privacy violated. But, I'm telling you, trans-people have a lot of support all over the planet. You're not getting the horse back in the barn. Best start participating in the conversations instead of just trying to shut it all down. JVL

Vivid, thanks. The troll knows he has crossed the line but now wants to play the you can't take a mere joke card. So, what part of microagrressions etc suddenly vanishes, here? If they were not self servingly inconsistent, they would have no standards. KF kairosfocus

PPS, the abusive reaction implies that the list of genders is striking home, flak implies over target. More,

Paragender: the feeling very near one gender and partially something else which keeps you from feeling fully that gender Perigender: identifying with a gender but not as a gender Polygender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand omnigender Proxvir: a masculine gender similar to boy, but on a separate plane and off to itself Quoigender: feeling as if the concept of gender is inapplicable or nonsensical to one’s self Subgender: mostly agender with a bit of another gender Surgender: having a gender that is 100% one gender but with more of another gender added on top of that Systemgender: a gender that is the sum of all the genders within a multiple or median system Tragender: a gender that stretches over the whole spectrum of genders Transgender: any gender identity that transcends or does not align with your assigned gender or society’s idea of gender; the feeling of being any gender that does not match your assigned gender

The point is, the concept of gender as opposed to sex based on biology, opened the door to radical relativism and subjectivism, which are inherently self refuting and anti civilisational. It is time to look at that issue again, from Lewis Vaughn's reflections on ethical import:

Excerpted chapter summary, on Subjectivism, Relativism, and Emotivism, in Doing Ethics 3rd Edn, by Lewis Vaughn, W W Norton, 2012. [Also see here and here.] Clipping: . . . Subjective relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one approves of it. A person’s approval makes the action right. This doctrine (as well as cultural relativism) is in stark contrast to moral objectivism, the view that some moral principles are valid for everyone.. Subjective relativism, though, has some troubling implications. It implies that each person is morally infallible and that individuals can never have a genuine moral disagreement Cultural relativism is the view that an action is morally right if one’s culture approves of it. The argument for this doctrine is based on the diversity of moral judgments among cultures: because people’s judgments about right and wrong differ from culture to culture, right and wrong must be relative to culture, and there are no objective moral principles. This argument is defective, however, because the diversity of moral views does not imply that morality is relative to cultures. In addition, the alleged diversity of basic moral standards among cultures may be only apparent, not real. Societies whose moral judgments conflict may be differing not over moral principles but over nonmoral facts. Some think that tolerance is entailed by cultural relativism. But there is no necessary connection between tolerance and the doctrine. Indeed, the cultural relativist cannot consistently advocate tolerance while maintaining his relativist standpoint. To advocate tolerance is to advocate an objective moral value. But if tolerance is an objective moral value, then cultural relativism must be false, because it says that there are no objective moral values. Like subjective relativism, cultural relativism has some disturbing consequences. It implies that cultures are morally infallible, that social reformers can never be morally right, that moral disagreements between individuals in the same culture amount to arguments over whether they disagree with their culture, that other cultures cannot be legitimately criticized, and that moral progress is impossible. Emotivism is the view that moral utterances are neither true nor false but are expressions of emotions or attitudes. It leads to the conclusion that people can disagree only in attitude, not in beliefs. People cannot disagree over the moral facts, because there are no moral facts. Emotivism also implies that presenting reasons in support of a moral utterance is a matter of offering nonmoral facts that can influence someone’s attitude. It seems that any nonmoral facts will do, as long as they affect attitudes. Perhaps the most far-reaching implication of emotivism is that nothing is actually good or bad. There simply are no properties of goodness and badness. There is only the expression of favorable or unfavorable emotions or attitudes toward something.

We may add, when something can be anything at whim, it has become meaningless, something the principle of distinct identity protects us from. That is, a root of this is refusal to acknowledge that our two sexes hold their distinct identity i/l/o core characteristics and have objective reference. Which, too, is why we can identify rare medical conditions as based on problems with the system. Notice here, as a sign of what is really up, definition of transgender, sitting in midst of a list. Suddenly, we see it is defiance of the objectivity of sex determination on the XY system. Obviously, they would have preferred that we be like grouper fish, which DO change sex, but notice, male --> female, i.e. within the wider context of complementary sexes in reproduction. kairosfocus

PS, there can be no body of brain scans regarding 112 or at least, dozens of allegedly standardised genders. Likely, you mean, comparing brain scans of the two sexes. Which simply carries us back to the objectivity of sex determination based on the XY system. Where, brain scans, waves etc are of course not a definition of thought, they just mark zones of activity. That is, you are creeping over into [genetically determined . . .? spot the irony or outright incoherence?] computationalism which directly undermines the rationality and freedom you need to have credible argument, warrant and knowledge, your argument is self-defeating. Computers, inherently, are non rational. kairosfocus

“seriously, you have to grow a sense of humour.” It wasn’t funny. Vivid vividbleau

Sc, you were warned and you know that your remarks were over the line for a reasonable public space, are slander, and are without merit; mark crossing the line into being a clear troll. We can infer that you are concluding that this latest sock puppet has outlived its usefulness. KF kairosfocus

KF: Sc, you are being abusive and over the line with snide and utterly unnecessary, uncivil commentary. This is your single warning. KF

Does this mean that you won’t be posting any pictures of yourself in leather. :) seriously, you have to grow a sense of humour.

Do, tell us, if genetics and bodily form are no longer objectively decisive,<

When you can adequately address why the brain structure and activity of transgendered more resemble that of the gender they identify as than their chromosomal sex, I may respond to you. Until then, I will simply conclude that you are being evasive.

Meanwhile, you are ducking and side stepping the contrast between XY chromosome sex determination of humans from conception (with rare abnormalities) and groupers which actually do change sex.

Actually, I prefer clown fish, that are all born male, and only the largest, most aggressive one in the group become female. I have a couple in my aquarium. Or the sea turtle, who’s sex is determined by the temperature of the sand in which they are incubated. The point is that we are not defined by the presence, or lack, of a penis. There are billions of factors involved in making us who we are. The fact that you think we are constrained by a bit of dangling flesh says more about you than it does about me. Scamp

Sc, you are being abusive and over the line with snide and utterly unnecessary, uncivil commentary. This is your single warning. KF PS, of course, you deny and seek to obfuscate. The absurdities with just a few that make a sort of demented sense, speak for themselves. What part of, I first met these off line in a serious policy context do you fail to understand? What part of, the implications of substituting, an engineered capture of a grammatical term, gender, then substituting psycho social relativism and subjectivism, is so hard to predict? What part of, when you find it hard to tell between satire and reality is failing to tell you we are off the rails? Do, tell us, if genetics and bodily form are no longer objectively decisive, what reasonable basis have you to object to proposed dozens of genders, each demanding to be recognised as it wills and expecting others to lie habitually? Answer, plainly, none. Meanwhile, you are ducking and side stepping the contrast between XY chromosome sex determination of humans from conception (with rare abnormalities) and groupers which actually do change sex. As for the FSCO/I challenge and islands of function gaps pointing to design, yet again . . . kairosfocus

Vivid

SA keep in mind that Scamp et al don’t give a crap about women or women’s rights. Once you understand that everything comes into focus.

To think that a man can just put on some nail polish and make-up and expect the whole world to think he's a woman is really insulting to women. Being a true woman comes with a lot of sacrifice and effort. Our world does not like feminine virtues because they cut against a lot of the ugly things we look for. And that just shows how foolish we are as a society. A lot of men have hatred for women (which is a Satanic impulse) and they'll just say "you want to be equivalent to a man, go ahead!" - and they'll even want women to be drafted into active combat. A civilized world protects women from such things - especially caring for mothers with infants who are vulnerable.

Scamp says he does not think men who think they are women should participate in women’s sports.

People who say such things are considered "far right extremists", but I give Scamp credit for being sensible on this. At the same time, the world is shifting to this insane idea that men who think they are women should be praised for defeating a team of real women. That's what we should fight against. Silver Asiatic

SA “But I grew up around some very great women who I loved and who were strong in character and would never tolerate being degraded the way we do to women these days. “ SA keep in mind that Scamp et al don’t give a crap about women or women's rights. Once you understand that everything comes into focus. Scamp says he does not think men who think they are women should participate in women's sports. He evidently is not aware that that would break the law and we know how much he is a stickler about obeying the law . Vivid vividbleau

SA: But I grew up around some very great women who I loved and who were strong in character and would never tolerate being degraded the way we do to women these days. They also were not feminists or progressives at all.

I would argue that they were feminists. If they were strong and wouldn’t tolerate degradation, they were feminists.

Feminism, then to gay marriage where people pretend to be spouses and transgenderism is just another step down

How do you see that? Love of others should always be encouraged. If two men want to marry, I will buy them flowers and wish them well. If a transgender wants to make it public I will ask, how can I help?. I really don’t see what is wrong with this. Scamp

I was taught by my parents and family and church that it's a man's duty to show great respect to women and do extra to honor them - mothers and spouses and to uphold feminine virtue. We shouldn't force women to feel they need to act like men and not to tease or play with emotions as boys will tend to do. But I grew up around some very great women who I loved and who were strong in character and would never tolerate being degraded the way we do to women these days. They also were not feminists or progressives at all. They love being women with their unique qualities and demand that is respected. That worked for them. The good men in my family would never dream of the kind of disrespect that we see today. Those guys, not college educated, but were true gentlemen. It's a two way street, of course - feminists brought a lot of this down upon us, but weak men permitted it so they could indulge their lusts and live without responsibility. Feminism, then to gay marriage where people pretend to be spouses and transgenderism is just another step down. Silver Asiatic

JVL “So, I guess, for me, a woman is who ever wants to claim the title. It doesn’t affect me in any way that I can discern.” Of course not you are I believe you are a man but it effects women and it effects me because it effects my family.For all the talk about not wanting men who think they are women to participate in sports that would be in direct opposition to title IX and against the law. “https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/us-department-education-confirms-title-ix-protects-students-discrimination-based-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity “The U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights today issued a Notice of Interpretation explaining that it will enforce Title IX's prohibition on discrimination on the basis of sex to include: (1) discrimination based on sexual orientation; and (2) discrimination based on gender identity” So now not only are women's privacy rights violated but title IX which women fought so hard over are being gutted. But it doesn’t affect you so all is right in the world. Vivid vividbleau

JVL “Kairosfocus: This is patent absurdity. I’ve got to agree with you there” Given your position that one’s gender is that which one chooses it to be I have no idea why you think it’s absurd? It’s no more absurd than “a woman is who ever wants to claim the title” Vivid vividbleau

JVL: Naughty, naughty Kairosfocus! Perhaps a good spanking is in order!!

Now I have this image of leather clad seniors administering homo-erotic spankings to KF. And him enjoying them. I don’t think I will sleep well tonight. Scamp

Kairosfocus: This is patent absurdity. I've got to agree with you there. Perhaps that Facebook page is all just a joke. And you're trying to deflect attention from the previous topic. Naughty, naughty Kairosfocus! Perhaps a good spanking is in order!! JVL

Kairosfocus Libragender: a gender that feels agender but has a strong connection to another gender Magigender: a gender that is mostly gender and the rest is something else Mascfluid: A gender that is fluid in nature, and restricted only to masculine genders Mascgender: a non-binary gender which is masculine in nature. Maverique: taken from the word maverick; the feeling of having a gender that is separate from masculinity, femininity, and neutrality, but is not agender; a form of third gender Mirrorgender: a gender that changes to fit the people around you Molligender: a gender that is soft, subtle, and subdued Multigender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand omnigender Nanogender: feeling a small part of one gender with the rest being something else Neutrois: the feeling of having a neutral gender; sometimes a lack of gender that leads to feeling neutral Nonbinary: originally an umbrella term for any gender outside the binary of cisgenders; may be used as an individual identity; occasionally used alongside of genderqueer Omnigender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand polygender Oneirogender: coined by anonymous, “being agender, but having recurring fantasies or daydreams of being a certain gender without the dysphoria or desire to actually be that gender day-to-day” Pangender: the feeling of having every gender; this is considered problematic by some communities and thus has been used as the concept of relating in some way to all genders as opposed to containing every gender identity; only applies to genders within one’s own culture

You have to add another one: :lol: https://twitter.com/LivePDDave1/status/1509519538039054339 Lieutenant Commander Data

JVL & Sc, no this is not Babylon Bee, it first came to my attention in a serious policy context. Ironically, when you cannot tell reality from satire, that should be a warning. KF kairosfocus

Sc, I never had occasion to search for such, I simply looked for sex determination, groupers -- now that is a real vice, fishing -- and the 112 genders. KF PS, to continue the list:

Libragender: a gender that feels agender but has a strong connection to another gender Magigender: a gender that is mostly gender and the rest is something else Mascfluid: A gender that is fluid in nature, and restricted only to masculine genders Mascgender: a non-binary gender which is masculine in nature. Maverique: taken from the word maverick; the feeling of having a gender that is separate from masculinity, femininity, and neutrality, but is not agender; a form of third gender Mirrorgender: a gender that changes to fit the people around you Molligender: a gender that is soft, subtle, and subdued Multigender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand omnigender Nanogender: feeling a small part of one gender with the rest being something else Neutrois: the feeling of having a neutral gender; sometimes a lack of gender that leads to feeling neutral Nonbinary: originally an umbrella term for any gender outside the binary of cisgenders; may be used as an individual identity; occasionally used alongside of genderqueer Omnigender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand polygender Oneirogender: coined by anonymous, “being agender, but having recurring fantasies or daydreams of being a certain gender without the dysphoria or desire to actually be that gender day-to-day” Pangender: the feeling of having every gender; this is considered problematic by some communities and thus has been used as the concept of relating in some way to all genders as opposed to containing every gender identity; only applies to genders within one’s own culture

This is patent absurdity. kairosfocus

JVL: Those cannot be real surely. Could Kairosfocus have been fooled by a spoof website? The mind reals.

I wonder if KF has heard about furries. https://youtu.be/woJZsHDT_zo Scamp

Scamp: If I were frequently googling homosexual, gay, queer, bisexual, bi-curious, transgendered and numerous gender identification terms, I would probably do the same thing. He (Kairosfocus) does seem to have an impressive list of gender identification variations. It's quite encyclopaedic. I assume. I've never tried to find such a list myself. Also, I suspect some of them are humorous. It would depend on the source which I haven't bothered to track. Examples:

Glassgender: a gender that is very sensitive and fragile Glimragender: a faintly shining, wavering gender

Those cannot be real surely. Could Kairosfocus have been fooled by a spoof website? The mind reals. JVL

KF: JVL, does it register that a reason to make consultation is to identify particulars, i.e. examine the actual case and options then weight consequences? If that does not register, nothing more would. KF

Then why not apply the same standard to the transgendered? Handle the issues on a case-by-case basis. Transgendered competing in women’s sport is a rarity. As are transgendered insisting on using women’s change rooms. And your list of genders, although amusing, is just a distraction from the actual issue. Do transgendered have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, or don’t they? Scamp

Kairosfocus: JVL, does it register that a reason to make consultation is to identify particulars, i.e. examine the actual case and options then weight consequences? If that does not register, nothing more would. Yes, that makes sense. And would you then be willing to follow the advise given to you? Even if it suggested letting the child grow to maturity and then self select what gender they wanted to be? In other words: would your priorities lie with the sound medical advice or your deeply held theological beliefs? If they were in conflict that is. JVL

KF: Sc, nil, I have several spam and popup and malware filters. KF

If I were frequently googling homosexual, gay, queer, bisexual, bi-curious, transgendered and numerous gender identification terms, I would probably do the same thing. Scamp

JVL, does it register that a reason to make consultation is to identify particulars, i.e. examine the actual case and options then weight consequences? If that does not register, nothing more would. KF PS, yet more:

Genderqueer: originally used as an umbrella term for nonbinary individuals; may be used as an identity; describes a nonbinary gender regardless of whether the individual is masculine or feminine leaning Genderwitched: a gender in which one is intrigued or entranced by the idea of a particular gender, but is not certain that they are actually feeling it Girlflux: when one feels mostly or all female most of the time but experiences fluctuating intensities of female identity Glassgender: a gender that is very sensitive and fragile Glimragender: a faintly shining, wavering gender Greygender: having a gender that is mostly outside of the binary but is weak and can barely be felt Gyragender: having multiple genders but understanding none of them Healgender: a gender that once realized, brings lots of peace, clarity, security, and creativity to the individual’s mind Heliogender: a gender that is warm and burning Hemigender: a gender that is half one gender and half something else; one or both halves may be identifiable genders Horogender: a gender that changes over time with the core feeling remaining the same Hydrogender: a gender which shares qualities with water Imperigender: a fluid gender that can be controlled by the individual Intergender: the feeling of gender falling somewhere on the spectrum between masculine and feminine; note: do not confuse with intersex Juxera: a feminine gender similar to girl, but on a separate plane and off to itself

kairosfocus

Scamp: With all of the googling KF has been doing on transexuals and LGBQ, the internet ads that pop up on his computer must be entertaining. ? While that is an amusing image I don't think that is what he is actually doing. I think Kairosfocus is trying really hard to be supportive and understanding but to stick to his firm and strict beliefs. The problem comes when he has to make a hard call about a particular person. And how would you handle dealing with that person later in life if they came back to you and expressed displeasure at the choice you made for them? If people are granted free will by a loving and caring God but you don't let them exercise that free will by making decisions for them about their sexuality then it all gets a bit difficult to rectify. I would think. But Kairosfocus can clarify all this if he chooses to do so. Mostly he seems more interested in dancing around what he really wants to say for some reason. That's the way it seems to me. JVL

Sc, nil, I have several spam and popup and malware filters. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: JVL, I have been pretty clear, frankly down to identifiable specific doctors I would go to. KF But you have not been clear on what kind of interventions or treatments you would accept. Why is that? What are you afraid of? You clearly are afraid of something. What is it? JVL

JVL, I have been pretty clear, frankly down to identifiable specific doctors I would go to. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: JVL, I pointed out competent counsel on sex determination and what goes wrong with it. I am also giving the list on what radicals are doing, and I will continue to further show the point. I do not understand why you can't be very, very clear and very, very specific about what kind of treatment or intervention for a physically sexually ambiguous baby you'd accept. You keep hinting at things without spelling out the details. Just say what you mean. Be clear. Make sure people know what you mean. No lying or dodging. Just clear, honest commitment. If you don't want to continue having to bow to a social norm you disagree with then you have to be clear and upfront. So, given that you'd be working with a competent physician, what, exactly, kind of 'treatment' would you support for a physically sexually ambiguous infant? JVL

Sc, actually, you are side stepping facts, so confessing by projecting. Note the list, which continues. KF PS, more

Femfluid: having fluctuating or fluid gender feelings that are limited to feminine genders Femgender: a nonbinary gender which is feminine in nature Fluidflux: the feeling of being fluid between two or more genders that also fluctuate in intensity; a combination of genderfluid and genderflux Gemigender: having two opposite genders that work together, being fluid and flux together Genderblank: a gender that can only be described as a blank space; when gender is called into question, all that comes to mind is a blank space Genderflow: a gender that is fluid between infinite feelings Genderfluid: the feeling of fluidity within your gender identity; feeling a different gender as time passes or as situations change; not restricted to any number of genders Genderflux: the feeling of your gender fluctuating in intensity; like genderfluid but between one gender and agender Genderfuzz: coined by lolzmelmel; the feeling of having more than one gender that are somehow blurred together to the point of not being able to distinguish or identify individual genders; synonymous with blurgender Gender Neutral: the feeling of having a neutral gender, whether somewhere in between masculine and feminine or a third gender that is separate from the binary; often paired with neutrois Genderpunk: a gender identity that actively resists gender norms

You tell me where brain wave patterns were characterised for such, how brain waves causally determine thoughts and inclinations and are determined genetically rather than as an aspect of a self-moved agent. kairosfocus

With all of the googling KF has been doing on transexuals and LGBQ, the internet ads that pop up on his computer must be entertaining. :) Scamp

KF@140, you keep sidestepping the fact that the brain structure and activity of transgendered more closely resembles that of the gender they identify as than they do their chromosomal sex. Society is much better off by supporting and enabling life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for everyone as long as they are causing no harm. And homosexuals and transgendered are causing no harm. Scamp

JVL, I pointed out competent counsel on sex determination and what goes wrong with it. I am also giving the list on what radicals are doing, and I will continue to further show the point. KF F/N: Continuing:

Commogender: when you know you aren’t cisgender, but you settled with your assigned gender for the time being Condigender: a gender that is only felt during certain circumstances Deliciagender: from the Latin word delicia meaning “favorite”, meaning the feeling of having more than one simultaneous gender yet preferring one that fits better Demifluid: the feeling your gender being fluid throughout all the demigenders; the feeling of having multiple genders, some static and some fluid Demiflux: the feeling of having multiple genders, some static and some fluctuating Demigender: a gender that is partially one gender and partially another Domgender: having more than one gender yet one being more dominant than the others Duragender: from the Latin word dura meaning “long-lasting”, meaning a subcategory of multigender in which one gender is more identifiable, long lasting, and prominent than the other genders Egogender: a gender that is so personal to your experience that it can only be described as “you” Epicene: sometimes used synonymously with the adjective “androgynous”; the feeling either having or not displaying characteristics of both or either binary gender; sometimes used to describe feminine male identifying individuals Espigender: a gender that is related to being a spirit or exists on a higher or extradimensional plane Exgender: the outright refusal to accept or identify in, on, or around the gender spectrum Existigender: a gender that only exists or feels present when thought about or when a conscious effort is made to notice it

And this is not Babylon Bee, it is meant seriously and has come up in serious policy fora. 1984 was a satirical novel of warning, not a handbook. PPS, I identified people from the list, let's just say that a consultation with people of that calibre is itself an intellectual journey. They will not be giving 1984 advice. kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: JVL, does, find a sound solid doctor with technical competence and good ethics then work with him or her mean anything to you? Do you want me to give my short list of docs I trust with my life or my nearest and dearest? It is clear you want a fishing expedition. You have my answer, on substance. KF Find a sound, solid doctor to do what exactly? If the doctor said: I think you should let this child develop as they are until they are at the age of consent and then they can decide which sex they can be identified with would you be okay with that? JVL

Kairosfocus JVL, you know the how, in accord with sound medical technique and ethics. KF

Some people can be autists so you have to go down to them and prepare your messages like for 4 years old. You should have said that the people with genetic sexual disorder should be treated as all people who have a disorder ,while all others that don't fall under this genetic disorder(but make belief insanity) should be treated as people with mental disorder with respect and understanding and not like their disorder is a virtue that should be taught to 3 years old. Lieutenant Commander Data

PS, it seems we need some more from the list, to understand where the 1984 newspeak ride ends:

Bigender: the feeling of having two genders either at the same time or separately; usually used to describe feeling “traditionally male” and “traditionally female”, but does not have to Biogender: a gender that feels connected to nature in some way. Blurgender: the feeling of having more than one gender that are somehow blurred together to the point of not being able to distinguish or identify individual genders; synonymous with genderfuzz Boyflux: when one feels mostly or all male most of the time but experience fluctuating intensity of male identity Burstgender: and gender that comes in intense bursts of feeling and quickly fades back to the original state Caelgender: a gender which shares qualities with outer space or has the aesthetic of space, stars, nebulas, etc. Cassgender: the feeling of gender is unimportant to you Cassflux: when the level of indifference towards your gender fluctuates Cavusgender: for people with depression; when you feel one gender when not depressed and another when depressed Cendgender: when your gender changes between one and its opposite Ceterofluid: when you are ceterogender and your feelings fluctuate between masculine, feminine, and neutral Ceterogender: a nonbinary gender with specific masculine, feminine, or neutral feelings Cisgender: the feeling of being the gender you were assigned at birth, all the time (assigned (fe)male/feeling (fe)male) Cloudgender: a gender that cannot be fully realized or seen clearly due to depersonalization/derealization disorder Collgender: the feeling of having too many genders simultaneously to describe each one Colorgender: a gender associated with one or more colors and the feelings, hues, emotions, and/or objects associated with that color; may be used like pinkgender, bluegender, yellowgender

I repeat, there are no nine sided hexagons. kairosfocus

JVL, does, find a sound solid doctor with technical competence and good ethics then work with him or her mean anything to you? Do you want me to give my short list of docs I trust with my life or my nearest and dearest? I'll just say, it starts with a former chief minister and outright genius, has on it a professor of the University of Havana [older Uni by far than ANY US University], also includes a doc who made his own office furniture and set up his own computer network 25 years ago, and goes on from there. It is clear you want a fishing expedition. You have my answer, on substance. KF kairosfocus

Sc et al, I'll stand up to anyone on the coherence of my worldview. Since you know what it is, you think -- do you remember the actual outline I gave only to meet a poof response? -- do, pray thee, inform us as to why and how it is irretrievably incoherent and thus necessarily false. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: JVL, you know the how, in accord with sound medical technique and ethics. You haven't specified what you would advocate doing. Just be clear so we all know what you're thinking. JVL

PS: More of the 112 genders:

Androgyne: sometimes used in the case of “androgynous presentation”; describes the feeling of being a mix of both masculine and feminine (and sometimes neutral) gender qualities Anesigender: feeling like a certain gender yet being more comfortable identifying with another Angenital: a desire to be without primary sexual characteristics, without necessarily being genderless; one may be both angenital and identify as any other gender alongside Anogender: a gender that fades in and out but always comes back to the same feeling Anongender: a gender that is unknown to both yourself and others Antegender: a protean gender which has the potential to be anything, but is formless and motionless, and therefore, does not manifest as any particular gender Anxiegender: a gender that is affected by anxiety Apagender: a feeling of apathy towards ones gender which leads to them not looking any further into it Apconsugender: a gender where you know what it isn’t, but not what it is; the gender is hiding itself from you Astergender: a gender that feels bright and celestial Astralgender: a gender that feels connected to space Autigender: a gender that can only be understood in the context of being autistic (POSSIBLE TRIGGER WARNING) Autogender: a gender experience that is deeply personal to oneself Axigender: when a person experiences two genders that sit on opposite ends of an axis; one being agender and the other being any other gender; these genders are experienced one at a time with no overlapping and with very short transition time.

And you thought gender was a synonym for sex. Not, in the hands of the jacobins. Again, there are no nine sided hexagons. kairosfocus

Sc, first, gender as used by too many is a socio-psychological construct not an objective reality; as the excerpt from the list of 112 shows beyond responsible doubt. Sex, is objective and what you wish to side step is that it is determined by the XY system for humans (up to a cluster of breakdowns which are rare and derivative from XY), we are not like groupers which DO change sex. This, manifestly, is a typical case of blind with half-science, in pursuit of agendas that cannot stand on their own merits: destroy the general understanding that human beings come in two complementary sexes, which are set from conception in the normal case. But then, we are also in a day and age where a million of our living posterity in the womb are killed per week, on a baseline of 1.4 billions, already the worst holocaust in history, and a key aspect of this is to dehumanise the better to kill in job lots under colour of law, rights etc. The obvious diagnosis is, that mass blood guilt is the most corrosive of all influences. KF kairosfocus

JVL, you know the how, in accord with sound medical technique and ethics. KF kairosfocus

JVL: We can only wonder when they choose not to fully elucidate their beliefs. Or fail to see the conflicts.

Yes, the cognitive dissonance is quite obvious when perceived from the outside, but I don’t think that they perceive it at all. Scamp

Scamp: I fully agree. What I find strange is that the very same people who are most vocal about defending this approach do a complete 180 when it involves homosexuals and transgendered. We can only wonder when they choose not to fully elucidate their beliefs. Or fail to see the conflicts. JVL

JVL: For me I think you start with not sticking your nose into other people’s business, stuff that doesn’t concern or affect you.

I fully agree. What I find strange is that the very same people who are most vocal about defending this approach do a complete 180 when it involves homosexuals and transgendered. Scamp

Scamp: It seems to me that the answer is obvious. When they are old enough to make an informed decision, they can select the gender they feel most represents how they feel and avail themselves of hormone therapy and/or surgery. I quite agree as I indicated in a reply to Vividbleau. It also seems to me that this is in accordance with many of our other societal standards and goals: life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, being left alone unless we're harming someone else, etc. I'm not sure why some feel that the way we choose to use our bodies and time can be dictated to us by people we don't even know personally. But hey, we all have our views. The question is: how do we learn to live together in society? For me I think you start with not sticking your nose into other people's business, stuff that doesn't concern or affect you. JVL

JVL: Treated how exactly? Why won’t you answer this simple, basic question? It’s not asking you to lie, it’s asking for your honest opinion.

It seems to me that the answer is obvious. When they are old enough to make an informed decision, they can select the gender they feel most represents how they feel and avail themselves of hormone therapy and/or surgery, or opt to do nothing. Why society would accept this as an acceptable practice and wouldn’t afford transgendered the same opportunities does not make any sense. It appears that some are hung up on a person’s outward appearance, refusing to take into account the billions of other things that constitute who the person is. Scamp

KF @ 123-125. You responded to me with 1,373 words, none of which addressed the fact that the brain structure and activity of transgendered more resemble that of the gender they identify as than their chromosomal sex. This further demonstrates that you pick evidence that supports your worldview, and ignore any that does not. What we are is not dictated by our genitalia. Most are heterosexual. About 3% are homosexual and about 0.5% are transgendered. Nobody knows the cause of this but we do know that these are not mere "preferences", like flavours of ice cream. It is no skin off my nose to accept them as they are and support their inclusion into society as equal participants. You are free to shout from the hills that this will be the downfall of civilization but don't be surprised that most people will not view you as a sane and rational being.

there is seldom a concession by activists or enablers of radical agendas even when the most patent absurdities are exposed.

Your projection is noted. Scamp

Kairosfocus: There are people, rare — it seems, likely less than 2 in 10,000 — reflecting medical conditions; as I have taken time to excerpt on. Such should be recognised and duly treated in that light, Treated how exactly? Why won't you answer this simple, basic question? It's not asking you to lie, it's asking for your honest opinion. JVL

All it's a scam . It's an agenda that works very well as part of depopulation. People like that are damaged people who will not have a normal family or a normal life. Majority who bought this are atheists , that were previously created by the same agenda. Sandy

JVL, being truthful implies acknowledging the biologically driven manifest, indeed self evident reality that human reproduction and thus society pivots on the two complementary sexes [i.e. sex is reflected in generative organs and related processes of reproduction]; as I have noted and cited above. There are people, rare -- it seems, likely less than 2 in 10,000 -- reflecting medical conditions; as I have taken time to excerpt on. Such should be recognised and duly treated in that light, note, typically the cellular level will still show XY or a related pattern reflecting clear disorders of the normal structures XX or XY; we are not like groupers or clownfish which can and do change sex based on different systems, cf 101 further above etc. In addition, there are agendas that seek to destroy recognition of our sexes, and which are using genders [up to 112+] to effect a warped understanding which is destructive, misanthropic and anti civilisational. Enabling such is indefensible and power backed untruth is the foundation of injustice. For sex, marriage, family, personal biology, identity etc, it remains clear that there are no nine sided hexagons. KF kairosfocus

JVL Thank you for your honest, cogent and forthright answer to my question. There is much there to absorb and I may take you up on your offer to ask a few questions or offer you a few observations. Thanks again. I very much appreciated your clarity. Vivid vividbleau

Kairosfocus: There is a big difference between forcing people to become habitual liars about the basic fact that we are male and female, driven by our XX/XY chromosomes, unlike Groupers or Clownfish, and the premise that those who suffer disabilities from genetic defects suffer medical conditions. I was asking you to be truthful and honest, not to lie. You have made it very, very clear that you will not specify what kinds of medical care or interventions you would be in favour of for those individuals whose physical appearance is indeterminate so I shall stop asking you. It's too bad you didn't have at least the courtesy to admit you were dodging the question. JVL

Vividbleau: What is a woman? I've got a few minutes so I'll have a go: It seems pretty clear to me that it's going to be ever more a contextual issue. For the large majority of the human population in all circumstances a woman is a human being who has two X chromosomes and exhibits the external and internal organs associated with being female. So, most of the time, it's pretty clear who is a woman and who isn't. As I've been pointing out there are a few individuals whose biological sex is indeterminate and, in those cases I believe they should be allowed to self-identify when they have reached the age of consent or adulthood. For the relatively small number of people who have some kind of gender dysphoria (a British MP just recently 'came out' about his own situation and got a lot of support from the conservative government including the PM) personally, I couldn't care less what they call themselves. It doesn't affect me or my family or my self worth or anything. It's not threatening to me or my way of life. In fact, I might say, that cultural diversity in all forms is enriching and interesting. In the UK where I live there is a general, widespread acceptance of what you might call gender-bending: One of our most respected and loved comedians likes to cross-dress as does one of our most respected artists. No one here seems to think that letting people change their gender is going to bring down our civilisation or morals. In fact, I'd say just about the only place it's even an issue is in sports. (And I have to say the same kinds of concerns come up for those athletes who participate in the para-olympics; i.e. who has a real handicap and who doesn't? Some para-athletes have been accused of cheating.) The Brits sometimes even make fun of the notion; remember the sketch from The Life of Brian? Oh, I just remembered, it's also been an issue for prisons but instead of shutting down the debate it is openly discussed and debated as it should be. So, I guess, for me, a woman is who ever wants to claim the title. It doesn't affect me in any way that I can discern. I don't tell other people what kind of art to like, what kind of music to listen to, what kind of food to eat, where to take their holidays, what kind of job to accept, what brand of car, toothpaste, shampoo, computer, crisps, etc to buy, what church to attend. I don't care what kinds of clothes people wear, how long their hair is, what kind of jewellery they can wear. Why should I care what nouns and adjectives and pronouns they prefer when referring to themselves? Doesn't mean I'm always going to guess right and I reject the notion that I can be expected to always respond in their preferred way. I expect us all to be respectful and tolerant. I think the sporting organisations and the prisons have to do some real thinking and consulting with the athletes and the prisoners to figure out how they're going to handle their situations but that's up to them to decide, not me. I hope that's clear and complete. Please feel free to ask any follow-up questions. And don't think my replies to others are in any way directed at you. JVL

Vividbleau: Well I did answer your question first even though it was not a question directed to me. Rather than pick at nits as to who should go first I answered your questions and was quite specific in my answers to you. So how about doing what you said to me you would do which was to answer my question to you, which was first BTW Yes, of course. I shall review our exchanges a bit later in my day and do my best. And I do apologise if I have been neglectful. JVL

NB: The second linked in the F/N above notes,

Sex Sex is objective, identifiable and immutable biology, thus within the realm of science. Biological sex is established at conception, declared in utero, and recognized or not at birth. Every nucleated cell in our bodies has a sex. There are only two gametes, sperm and egg, that participate in the generation of new life. There is no third gamete active in that process. Sex differences are real and of consequence. More than 6,500 shared genes are expressed differently in human males and females. These differences impact our brains; organ systems; propensity for developing certain diseases; differing responses to drugs, toxins and pain; contrasting cognitive and emotional processes; behavior; and more. To offer one example, sotalol has triple the likelihood of provoking torsades de pointes in women compared to men. Sex matters. Gender Gender is an engineered term that reportedly debuted in the academic literature in 1955 in an article addressing “hermaphroditism” (as it was then known) by psychiatrist Dr. John Money of John Hopkins University . . . Gender identity refers to self-perception and feelings that are subjective and prone to change. Gender is most often used as a sex stereotype. My point is this: nouns have gender; people have a sex. Intersex, Round Two The nomenclature “intersex” acknowledges something between two sexes and not a third sex. The term is intersex and not “extrasex,” therefore acknowledging the binary nature of human sex. Biological sex rarely may be phenotypically unclear in a given individual, but this does not represent a third one. Evolutionary biologist Colin Wright rejects the “sex is a spectrum” mantra with clear reasoning: “a spectrum implies a continuous distribution, and maybe even an amodal one (one in which no specific outcome is more likely than others). Biological sex in humans, however, is clear-cut over 99.98 percent of the time.” Dr. Wright continues, “any method exhibiting a predictive accuracy of over 99.98 percent would place it among the most precise methods in all the life sciences. We revise medical care practices and change world economic plans on far lower confidence than that.” Intersex/DSD is Not Gender Dysphoria or Trans-identification Intersex is not a subjective ideation. There is always an objective underlying medical origin. The DSM-5 Gender Dysphoria criteria states: “Specify if: With a disorder of sex development (e.g., a congenital adrenogenital disorder such as 255.2 [E25.0] congenital adrenal hyperplasia or 259.50 [E34.50] androgen insensitivity syndrome).” Intersex is what they mean, and it is different than gender dysphoria. Intersex/DSD is Rare Wildly inflated claims of the prevalence of DSD are common, but untrue. Dr. Leonard Sax exposed the source of some of this in his article, “How common is intersex.” Dr. Sax writes that Anne Fausto-Sterling asserted in her 2000 book Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality that intersex totaled 1.7 percent of human births. However, Sax shows that she included in her calculations common conditions having nothing to do with DSD. Dr. Sax notes that congenital adrenal hyperplasia and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are the most common DSDs, which is in keeping with the previously stated DSM-5 Gender Dysphoria specification. Dr. Sax concludes that DSD/Intersex, “far from being ‘a fairly common phenomenon,’ is actually a rare event, occurring in fewer than two out of every 10,000 births.” [--> shades of the "10%" claims made decades ago] Similarly, a 1992 Danish study found their rate of “testicular feminization syndrome” to be 1:20,400. A 2001 Dutch study stated their rate of androgen insensitivity syndrome “with molecular proof of the diagnosis is 1:99,000.” And a 2016 Danish study examining all their known 46XY karyotype females (androgen insensitivity syndrome) born since 1960 found the prevalence at 6.4 per 100,000 live born females. Intersex/DSD is rare.

So, we find:

a: rare medical disorders that may need management and care, b: which, are being blended into activism pivoting on taking the grammatical concept gender and turning it into a wedge for creating an array of psychosocial identities. In turn, c: those psychosocial assertions and agendas are used to try to manipulate us into denying the manifest biological reality of our two sexes. But, d: it remains, that our sex determination system on XY, founds male and female sexes pivotal to reproduction. _________________________________ CONCL 1: There is no good reason to deny the manifest reality of maleness and femaleness 2: We recognise developmental disorder linked, rare conditions -- it seems of order 2 in 10,000 or lower -- and respond through the blessings of modern medicine, with concern and care. 3: We similarly accept that people may exhibit different psychosocial feelings, thoughts, imaginings etc in response to our sexes and the like, however 4: we must first refuse to become habitual liars in response to power games and mainstreaming agendas, as power backed untruth is foundational to injustice [see Havel's greengrocer, or 1984, or the fate of Milada Horakova etc], where, too 5: sex and sex linked stable family structures are pivotal to the healthy future of individuals and of our race. 6: Similarly, rights are binding moral claims that others have duties towards us, where there can be no just duty to taint sound conscience; accordingly, one may only justly claim a right where one is manifestly in the right. 7: This consideration is often dismissed by radicals pursuing agendas, but it is a key consideration for the civil peace of justice, due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. 8: On evidence, for cause, we may freely conclude this criterion has not been met in this and related cases, which has provoked needless civilisational conflict and may trigger fatal disaffection. 9: Freedom is not licence.

Again, there are no nine sided hexagons. kairosfocus

PS: Let me clip from the opening part of the list as given:

Abimegender: a gender that is profound, deep, and infinite; meant to resemble when one mirror is reflecting into another mirror creating an infinite paradox Adamasgender: a gender which refuses to be categorized Aerogender: a gender that is influenced by your surroundings Aesthetigender: a gender that is derived from an aesthetic; also known as videgender Affectugender: a gender that is affected by mood swings Agender: the feeling of no gender/absence of gender or neutral gender Agenderflux: being mostly agender except having small shifts towards other genders making them demigenders (because of the constancy of being agender) Alexigender: a gender that is fluid between more than one gender but the individual cannot tell what those genders are Aliusgender: a gender which is removed from common gender descriptors and guidelines Amaregender: a gender that changes depending on who you’re in love with Ambigender: defined as having the feeling of two genders simultaneously without fluctuation; meant to reflect the concept of being ambidextrous, only with gender . . . ___________ F/N: See discussions of real development disorders and causes here and here.

It goes downhill from there, despite what the Aldermen of Nashua etc may have said recently. There are no nine sided hexagons. kairosfocus

Sc, this is beyond mere exchanges of comments on the Internet, where -- on observation -- there is seldom a concession by activists or enablers of radical agendas even when the most patent absurdities are exposed. Instead, key aspects of our nature are being manipulated by radicals and enabled by many. Here, we can simply note again, that you have no answer to the fact that humans have sex "determined" by the XY chromosome system, while Groupers for example -- which can and do change sex -- and other kinds of creatures use different systems. Further to which, there are medical conditions where people have differences from the standard development, usually with damaging effects. A respect for truth, then, would acknowledge the fact that we come in two complementary sexes, and that there are those with differences that are often medically significant. The current radical push to undermine maleness and femaleness through playing word games with gender, is ill founded and manifestly damaging despite pretences to the contrary, there is a reason why even our names are given in recognition of our two sexes. Last I looked, there were 112 different "genders" on the table, with definitions that manifestly reflect absurdity. So, I note that we still cannot find a nine sided hexagon. KF kairosfocus

KF: We may therefore freely infer, for cause, that you have implicitly ceded the matter on the merits.

If it is the only way for you to you to win an argument, feel free to infer whatever nonsense you would like. But I notice that you have not addressed the observation on the table that the brain structure and activity of the transgendered resemble more that of the gender they identify as than they do their chromosomal sex. You have a tendency to only allow facts that support your predetermined worldview to be placed on the table. Myself and an ever increasing majority of the population accept and support the transgendered and their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And I am quite comfortable with this. That this idea gives you the willies is your problem, not mine or theirs. Scamp

Sc, let's put relevant context on the table. At 101, I put on the table a summary of the sex determining systems that have been observed, which underscores the significance of the XX/XY system for humans. If you had a cogent rebuttal, you would have given it. You chose instead to try the snip, snipe rhetorical distractor . . . an observation. We may therefore freely infer, for cause, that you have implicitly ceded the matter on the merits. We are back at, there are no nine sided hexagons. KF kairosfocus

JVL, has it occurred to you, that I have said enough to answer the matter and do not need to go out on further details on tangent after tangent? There is a big difference between forcing people to become habitual liars about the basic fact that we are male and female, driven by our XX/XY chromosomes, unlike Groupers or Clownfish, and the premise that those who suffer disabilities from genetic defects suffer medical conditions. There is nothing dictatorial or bigoted in pointing those out. And, it is pretty clear who have been playing 1984 games. KF kairosfocus

“But using the bathroom of their identified sex or expecting others to address them by their preferred name and pronoun are not causing harm to others.” Who cares if they violate the privacy rights of women says a man. “Separate places to disrobe, sleep, perform personal bodily functions are permitted, in some situations required, by regard for individual privacy. Individual privacy, a right of constitutional dimension, is appropriately harmonized with the equality principle.” Privacy and equality are not mutually exclusive. In fact, upholding the former is essential to preserving the latter—especially for women.” Ruth Bader Ginsburg Vivid vividbleau

JVL “By the way, from past experience, I’m quite sure if I answer first you never will. ‘Cause that’s what you’re like. Shame the evo-fool, that’s your game. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.” Well I did answer your question first even though it was not a question directed to me. Rather than pick at nits as to who should go first I answered your questions and was quite specific in my answers to you. So how about doing what you said to me you would do which was to answer my question to you, which was first BTW “ JVL “When you address my query I shall be glad to address yours.” VB “You never asked me a question however I will take the high road and address your query to KF when I have some time” vividbleau

WJM: Scamp @97: I direct my posts at those whom I think I will most enjoy interacting with on the subject at hand, and who haven’t indicated they do not value/respect my participation here (including those who have indicated they prefer I don’t interact with them at all.)

Not a problem. I just thought that you intended your comment for someone else. As I have mentioned, I accept and support transgendered to lead their lives as they see fit, as long as it does no harm to others. To me, transgendered competing in women’s sports is causing harm. But using the bathroom of their identified sex or expecting others to address them by their preferred name and pronoun are not causing harm to others. Scamp

KF: Sc, I am not WJM.

That is obvious. WJM is a very good writer and is able to comment without being judgemental and ascribe motives to those he is responding to. Scamp

Ram, thecartoon of the cave man clubbing then carrying off a woman says something. Though, when it came to a real case, Osti, his fur suit was tailored, so he may have been more of a civilised person than we give credit. Notoriously, women civilise men. KF kairosfocus

KF @106 Yes, I agree completely. And I like to take it up a notch. It comes down to females (non-penis-holders) not wanting males (penis-holders) in their safe spaces and other spaces. And I support them completely. No penises in non-penis spaces. It's that simple. All the other words that people use around the "gender identity" issues just obfuscates the obvious. For crying out loud, the loony left won't even define what a "woman" is. I won't play the word games. It's penis vs non-penis. A lot of non-penis-holders don't want penis-holders in their non-penis spaces. It's that simple. --Ram #NoPenisesInNonPenisSpaces ram

Perhaps it's just me but does anyone else find it ironic that some people who say they are following an absolute and objective morality can't say how they'd behave in a given situation? That just can't be right can it? JVL

Asuaber: You are wasting a lot of time and space whining, when you could just answer the question posed to you. So could you. But you won't because you want to control the conversation and think you can shame me by getting me to answer your question first. Nice try. But I'm not playing. I asked you first, you answer first. Or continue to be afraid to tell people what your answer is. Afraid someone is going to make fun of you? Accuse you of being foolish or contradictory? It must be a bit weird to have a strong conviction but be afraid to make it public. I've already hinted at mine in a reply to someone else; I'm not ashamed of my opinion. But you clearly are ashamed of yours. It's kind of amusing really. By the way, from past experience, I'm quite sure if I answer first you never will. 'Cause that's what you're like. Shame the evo-fool, that's your game. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. JVL

Kairosfocus: the little rhetorical game is over as at 101 above; an ironic coincidence of numbering. You know what the ciceronian first duties imply, and what duty to neighbour implies theologically. You are now on notice as to the core facts on human sex determination as a case of the XY system. You therefore know why I refuse to become a habitual liar about the nature of human sex, and you know that power backed untruth is a gateway to injustice. Incredible. I asked you to clarify your own stance, to explain what it would mean for some actual people who are intersex, and you don't even have the courage in your position to state what you would do. You must be afraid to say . . . I wonder why that would be? Are you afraid it you would look foolish or out of touch? Are you afraid that you would look dictatorial or fanatical? Or, are you afraid that deep down you know that what you would choose to do could be argued to be anti-biblical? Only you can clear up this issue. But you won't. You don't think explaining how real people would get treated by you matters. Speaks volumes don't you think? That you can't be clear or straight. Your ruler's not crooked is it? JVL

As far as what should be done with biological intersex babies, the answer is that the parents have the legal authority to act on their child's behalf, including making long-term medical decisions. It's up to the parents. Perhaps the broader question is, how much power should lie in the hands of a parent? What rights would a true intersex have, wrt determining their own preferred sex later? Should the parents not have the right to assign a particular sex to an intersex baby with surgery and hormonal treatment? William J Murray

"You’re not playing fair." JVL, You are wasting a lot of time and space whining, when you could just answer the question posed to you. Andrew asauber

Ram @105, Thank you for your kind words. William J Murray

PS, it is no accident that we often speak of fair play, i.e. sports provides a context for ethical habituation and particularly marking the difference between fair competition and destructive unfairness. I do not doubt that some of the jacobins therefore view sports as strategic ground to be taken to advance their agenda. More people attend to sports nowadays than to the news, politics, public education . . . -- and possibly, to these combined. Church and compulsory public education in schools are the only two activities I can think of that have comparable attention and participation. So, I doubt that what we are seeing is accident, rather than agenda. kairosfocus

Ram, Men imagining or claiming themselves to be women have different bodily development and strength. The result is, the reasonable categorisation, value and validity of competitive sport vanishes, and the policy encouragements due to significance of sport for health, life, socialisation etc are warped by injection of power backed untruth. As the OP documents, for some cases that is a physical threat. This also sets a powerful precedent and sends a powerful, destructive message about objectivity and truth in our civilisation, on a topic that a great many people care about. 1984 here we come. There are no nine sided hexagons, and it matters. KF kairosfocus

WJM: 3. If sports are separated by gender, then what does it matter if someone is transitioning or has transitioned via surgery and hormonal therapy? Isn’t just self-identifying as one gender or the other enough? 4. Why not just allow men to compete in women’s sports regardless of how they self-identify, and regardless of whether or not they are trans? Why would “considering yourself a woman” in your own mind be a substantive value worth considering? Aaannnnnnd, WJM's superior reasoning delivers the death blow once again. Bravo, WJM. --Ram #NoPenisesInWomensSpaces ram

Scamp @97: I direct my posts at those whom I think I will most enjoy interacting with on the subject at hand, and who haven't indicated they do not value/respect my participation here (including those who have indicated they prefer I don't interact with them at all.) William J Murray

JVL, the little rhetorical game is over as at 101 above; an ironic coincidence of numbering. You know what the ciceronian first duties imply, and what duty to neighbour implies theologically. You are now on notice as to the core facts on human sex determination as a case of the XY system. You therefore know why I refuse to become a habitual liar about the nature of human sex, and you know that power backed untruth is a gateway to injustice. That is why jacobinism fails everytime. I for cause see jacobins playing with yet another form of cultural marxism, hoping to destabilise sex, individual identity and independence of family, are anti civilisational misanthropes. That is different from people with medical and/or psychosocial conditions who may need help. Where, as bonus, it turns out the various systems for sex determination illustrate directly reproduction connected FSCO/I and islands of function in large configuration spaces. That is, human sex is designed not accident of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, so wrenching it out of alignment with its due end is wrong. Things can get broken, as several cases above illustrate, loss of intelligence and infertility cannot be helped, but people can be treated and helped. Acknowledging truth is the foundation of finding a right response and so we are back at the basic challenge: show us a nine sided hexagon. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: As I noted, there are people with medical conditions, who should be treated as such But what do you mean by that? What gender pronoun would you assign to them? Would you encourage sex-assignment surgery for days-old babies with ambiguous genitalia? Sometimes you talk a lot without actually answering the questions asked. JVL

F/N2: More admissions from Wiki on sex determination systems:

The XY sex-determination system is a sex-determination system used to classify many mammals, including humans, some insects (Drosophila), some snakes, some fish (guppies), and some plants (Ginkgo tree). In this system, the sex of an individual is determined by a pair of sex chromosomes. Females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), and are called the homogametic sex. Males have two different kinds of sex chromosomes (XY), and are called the heterogametic sex.[1] In humans, the presence of the Y chromosome is responsible for triggering male development; in the absence of the Y chromosome, the fetus will undergo female development. In most species with XY sex determination, an organism must have at least one X chromosome in order to survive.[2][3] The XY system contrasts in several ways with the ZW sex-determination system found in birds, some insects, many reptiles, and various other animals, in which the heterogametic sex is female. It had been thought for several decades that in all snakes sex was determined by the ZW system, but there had been observations of unexpected effects in the genetics of species in the families Boidae and Pythonidae; for example, parthenogenic reproduction produced only females rather than males, which is the opposite of what is to be expected in the ZW system. In the early years of the 21st century such observations prompted research that demonstrated that all pythons and boas so far investigated definitely have the XY system of sex determination.[4][5] A temperature-dependent sex determination system is found in some reptiles and fish.

Then,

The X0 sex-determination system determines the sex of offspring among: Most arachnids[1] with the exception of mites where a small majority are haplodiploid,[2] Almost all apterygote and Paleopteran insects (e.g., dragonflies, silverfish) Most exopterygote insects (e.g., grasshoppers, crickets, cockroaches) Some nematodes,[1] crustaceans,[1] gastropod molluscs[3] and bony fish,[4] notably in the genus Ancistrus[5] Several mammals A few species of bat, including the hammer-headed bat,[6] Buettikofer's epauletted fruit bat, Franquet's epauletted fruit bat, Peters's epauletted fruit bat, and Gambian epauletted fruit bat[7] The Ryukyu spiny rat and Tokunoshima spiny rat[8] In this system, there is only one sex chromosome, referred to as X. Males only have one X chromosome (X0), while females have two (XX). The zero (sometimes, the letter O) signifies the lack of a second X. Maternal gametes always contain an X chromosome, so the sex of the animals’ offspring depends on whether a sex chromosome is present in the male gamete. Its sperm normally contain either one X chromosome or no sex chromosomes at all. In a variant of this system, most individuals have two sex chromosomes (XX) and are hermaphroditic, producing both eggs and sperm with which they can fertilize themselves, while rare individuals are male and have only one sex chromosome (X0). The model organism Caenorhabditis elegans—a nematode frequently used in biological research—is one such organism. Some Drosophila species have X0 males.[9] These are thought to arise via the loss of the Y chromosome.

Also,

The ZO sex-determination system is a system that determines the sex of offspring in several moths. In those species, there is one sex chromosome, Z. Males have two Z chromosomes, whereas females have one Z. Males are ZZ, while females are ZO.

Then,

Haplodiploidy is a sex-determination system in which males develop from unfertilized eggs and are haploid, and females develop from fertilized eggs and are diploid.[1] Haplodiploidy is sometimes called arrhenotoky. Haplodiploidy determines the sex in all members of the insect orders Hymenoptera (bees, ants, and wasps)[2] and Thysanoptera ('thrips').[3] The system also occurs sporadically in some spider mites, Hemiptera, Coleoptera (bark beetles), and rotifers. In this system, sex is determined by the number of sets of chromosomes an individual receives. An offspring formed from the union of a sperm and an egg develops as a female, and an unfertilized egg develops as a male. This means that the males have half the number of chromosomes that a female has, and are haploid. The haplodiploid sex-determination system has a number of peculiarities. For example, a male has no father and cannot have sons, but he has a grandfather and can have grandsons. Additionally, if a eusocial-insect colony has only one queen, and she has only mated once, then the relatedness between workers (diploid females) in a hive or nest is 3?4. This means the workers in such monogamous single-queen colonies are significantly more closely related than in other sex determination systems where the relatedness of siblings is usually no more than 1?2. It is this point which drives the kin selection theory of how eusociality evolved.[4] Whether haplodiploidy did in fact pave the way for the evolution of eusociality is still a matter of debate.[5][6] Another feature of the haplodiploidy system is that recessive lethal and deleterious alleles will be removed from the population rapidly because they will automatically be expressed in the males (dominant lethal and deleterious alleles are removed from the population every time they arise, as they kill any individual they arise in).[3] Haplodiploidy is not the same thing as an X0 sex-determination system. In haplodiploidy, males receive one half of the chromosomes that females receive, including autosomes. In an X0 sex-determination system, males and females receive an equal number of autosomes, but when it comes to sex chromosomes, females will receive two X chromosomes while males will receive only a single X chromosome.

So too,

Temperature-dependent sex determination (TSD) is a type of environmental sex determination in which the temperatures experienced during embryonic/larval development determine the sex of the offspring.[1] It is only observed in reptiles and teleost fish.[2][3][4][5] TSD differs from the chromosomal sex-determination systems common among vertebrates. It is the most studied type of environmental sex determination (ESD). Some other conditions, e.g. density, pH, and environmental background color, are also observed to alter sex ratio, which could be classified either as temperature-dependent sex determination or temperature-dependent sex differentiation, depending on the involved mechanisms.[6] As sex-determining mechanisms, TSD and genetic sex determination (GSD) should be considered in an equivalent manner,[7] which can lead to reconsidering the status of fish species that are claimed to have TSD when submitted to extreme temperatures instead of the temperature experienced during development in the wild, since changes in sex ratio with temperature variation are ecologically and evolutionally relevant.[6] While TSD has been observed in many reptile and fish species, the genetic differences between sexes and molecular mechanisms of TSD have not been determined.[6] The cortisol-mediated pathway and epigenetic regulatory pathway are thought to be the potential mechanisms involved in TSD.[6][8] The eggs are affected by the temperature at which they are incubated during the middle one-third of embryonic development.[9] This critical period of incubation is known as the thermosensitive period (TSP).[10] The specific time of sex-commitment is known due to several authors resolving histological chronology of sex differentiation in the gonads of turtles with TSD.[9]

Cross checking, we can see for our own species: https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/sex-determination-humans

In humans, sex determination is the process that determines the biological sex of an offspring and, as a result, the sexual characteristics that they will develop. Humans typically develop as either male or female, depending on the combination of sex chromosomes that they inherit from their parents. The human sex chromosomes, called X and Y, are structures in human cells made up of tightly bound deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA, and proteins. Those are molecules that contain the instructions for the development and functioning of all life forms, including the development of physical traits and body parts that correspond with each biological sex. Humans who inherit two X chromosomes typically develop as females, while humans with one X and one Y chromosome typically develop as males. Sex determination is the beginning of the development of many characteristics that influence how a human looks and functions as well as the societal expectations that other humans have for each other. The process of sex determination begins after fertilization, a process where male and female germ cells fuse to form a zygote, or a single-celled, fertilized egg. Germ cells are those that carry genetic information from parents to offspring during fertilization. Male germ cells are sperm cells and female germ cells are egg cells. When the egg and sperm cells fuse, the zygote divides into multiple cells and later forms an embryo. The embryo includes a combination of part of each parent’s genetic information, including one sex chromosome from each parent. The combination of sex chromosomes that an embryo inherits from germ cells determines what biological sex it will later develop as.

Where, too, https://www.vedantu.com/biology/sex-determination

Numerical abnormalities of X and Y chromosomes are responsible for causing several conditions in human beings. Some of them are discussed below. Klinefelter Syndrome: A condition where 44+XXY karyotype gives rise to male individuals with a reproductive disability, tall structure, low IQ learning and reading disabilities. Triple X Syndrome: A condition where 44+XXX karyotype gives rise to female individuals who are fertile, with average IQ and stature more than that of an average female. Turner’s Syndrome: A condition where 44+X0 karyotype gives rise to female individuals with short structure. They are infertile as they have ill-developed reproductive parts. XYY Syndrome: A condition where 44+XYY karyotype gives rise to male individuals with increased stature, learning problems etc.

Then, https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/sex-determination

Sex determination in animals is an integral part of reproduction. In general, sex determination describes the genetic and environmental processes that influence sex differentiation, whereas sex differentiation is the physical realization of these events in terms of testicular or ovarian development (Mittwoch, 1996). In other words, sex determination is concerned primarily with the determination of gonadal sex and the associated physiological processes that support gonadal development and function. Sex determination systems use different genes and regulatory mechanisms to establish activities in males and females to control a shared gene switch that regulates sexual development (Zarkower, 2001). The most highly evolved systems for sex determination in animals feature a single segregating pair of sex chromosomes that determine the sex, viz., XX/XY, as in placental mammals. Sex-determining genes, located in sex chromosomes, determine the cytodifferentiation of the indeterminate gametes to bring about sexual dimorphism into male and female gametes (see Bull, 1983). In Crustacea, sex determination is a complex process, involving a large network of interactions among genes as well as between environment and genes. The genes so far discovered to be involved in gonad differentiation pathway are predominantly transcription factors. For example, DMRT-1, DSX-1, and SOX-9, responsible for the induction and regulation of gene expression, emphasize the importance of regulatory factors in development and differentiation of the gonad (Farazmand et al., 2010; Zarkower, 2001; Kato et al., 2010). In Crustacea, target genes for these transcription factors are not known, but could well be responsible for gonad differentiation. Similarly, the genes and the target cells involved in the temperature-dependent sex determination also remain to be established in Crustacea. On the contrary, in vertebrates, these genes are related to temperature-dependent modulation of aromatase activity (Kettlewell et al., 2000). Crustaceans exhibit diversified mechanisms of sex determination but conform to the common genetically controlled sex determination pattern, found in other animals. Interestingly, genetic determination of sex in Crustacea varies vastly ranging from the most primitive, weak polygenic system to strong chromosomal sex determination. Sex determination can even differ markedly within a species and between closely related species in Crustacea. Significantly, different epigenetic factors (temperature and photoperiod) are known to exercise a strong influence on genetic sex-determining processes, yielding a wide variety of sexualization in these arthropods. Cytoplasmic sex determination is yet another system, found exclusively in crustaceans, with the possible exception of certain insects, like aphids (Legrand et al., 1987).

Then, lastly for now: https://www.yourarticlelibrary.com/biology/sex-determination-3-basic-types-of-sex-determination-processes/11957

Establishment of male and female individuals or male and female organs of an individual is called sex determination. It is of three types— environmental, genic and chromosomal. A. Environmental or Non-genetic Determination of Sex: 1. Marine mollusc Crepidula becomes female if reared alone. In company of a female, it develops into male (Coe, 1943). 2. Marine worm Bonellia develops into 3 cm long female if its larva settles down in an isolated place. It grows into small (0.3 cm long) parasitic male if it comes closer to an already established female (Baltzer, 1935). The male enters the body of the female and stays there as a parasite. 3. Ophryortocha is male in the young state and female later on. 4. In Crocodiles and some lizards high temperature induces maleness and low tempera­ture femaleness. In turtles, males are predominant below 28°C, females above 33°C and equal number of the two sexes between 28-33°C. B. Nonallosomic Genic Determination of Sex: In bacteria, fertility factor present in a plasmid determines sex. Chlamydomonas pos­sesses sex determining genes. Maize possesses separate genes for development of tassel (male inflorescence) and cob (female inflorescence). C. Chromosomal Determination of Sex: Henking (1891) discovered an X-body in 50% of the sperms of firefly. Y-body was discovered by Stevens (1902). McClung (1902) observed 24 chromosomes in female Grass­hopper and 23 chromosomes in male Grasshopper. Wilson and Stevens (1905) put forward chromosome theory of sex and named the X- and Y- bodies as sex chromosomes, X and Y. Chromosomal or allosomic determination of sex is based on heterogamesis or occur­rence of two types of gametes in one of the two sexes. Male heterogamety or digamety is found in allosome complements XX-XY and XX-X0. Female heterogamety or digamety occurs in allosome complements ZW-ZZ and Z0-ZZ. Sex is determined by number of genomes in haplodiploidy. Chromosomal determination of sex is of the following types: 1. XX—XY Type: In most insects including fruitfly Drosophila and mammals including human beings the females possess two homomorphic (= isomorphic) sex chromosomes, named XX. The males contain two heteromorphic sex chromosomes, i.e., XY. The Y-chromosome is often shorter and heterochromatic (made of heterochro­matin). It may be hooked (e.g., Drosophila). Despite differences in mor­phology, the XY chromosomes synapse during zygotene. It is because they have two parts, homologous and differential. Homologous regions of the two help in pairing. They carry same genes which may have different alleles. Such genes present on both X and Y chromosomes are XY-linked genes. They are inher­ited like autosomal genes, e.g., xeroderma pigmentosum, epidermoly­sis bullosa. The differential region of Y-chromosome carries only Y-linked or holandric genes, e.g., testis determin­ing factor (TDF) . . . . Human beings have 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromo­somes. All the ova formed by female are similar in their chromosome type (22 + X). Therefore, females are homoga­metic. The male gametes or sperms pro­duced by human males are of two types, (22 + X) and (22 + Y). Human males are therefore, heterogametic (male digamety or male heterogamety). Sex of Offspring (Fig. 5.23): Sex of the offspring is determined at the time of fertilization. It cannot be changed later on. It is also not dependent on any characteristic of the female parent because the latter is homogametic and produces only one type of eggs (22 + X), the male gametes are of two types, androsperms (22 + Y) and gynosperms (22 + X). They are produced in equal proportion. Fertilization of the egg (22 + X) with a gynosperm (22 + X) will produce a female child (44 + XX) while fertilization with an androsperm (22 + Y) gives rise to male child (44 + XY). As the two types of sperms are produced in equal proportions, there are equal chances of getting a male or female child in a particular mating. As Y-chromosome determines the male sex of the individual, it is also called androsome. In human beings, TDF gene of Y-chromosome brings about differentiation of em­bryonic gonads into testes. Testes produce testosterone that helps in development of male reproductive tract. In the absence of TDF, gonads differentiate into ovaries after sixth week of embryonic development. It is followed by formation of female reproductive tract. Female sex is, therefore, a default sex. 2. XX—X0 Types: In roundworms and some insects (true bugs, grasshoppers, cock­roaches), the females have two sex chromosomes, XX, while the males have only one sex chromosome, X. There is no second sex chromosome. Therefore, the males are designated as X0. The females are homogametic because they produce only one type of eggs (A+X). The males are heterogametic with half the male gametes (gynosperms) carrying X-chromo- some (A+X) while the other half (androsperms) being devoid of it (A + 0). The sex ratio produced in the progeny is 1: 1 (Fig. 5.24). 3. ZW—ZZ Type (= WZ—WW Type). In birds and some reptiles both the sexes possess two sex chromosomes but unlike human beings the females contain heteromorphic sex chromosomes (AA + ZW) while the males have homomorphic sex chromosomes (AA + ZZ). Because of having heteromorphic sex chromosomes, the females are heterogametic (female heterogamety) and produce two types of eggs, (A + Z) and (A + W). The male gametes or sperms are of one type (A + Z). 1: 1 sex ratio is produced in the offspring (Fig. 5.25). 4. ZO — ZZ Type: This type of sex determination occurs in some butterflies and moths. It is exactly opposite the condition found in cockroaches and grasshoppers. Here the females have odd sex chromosome (AA + Z) while the males have two homomorphic sex chromo­somes (AA + ZZ). The females are heterogametic. They produce two types of eggs, male forming with one sex chromosome (A + Z) and female forming without the sex chromosome (A + 0). The males are homogametic, forming similar types of sperms (A + Z). The two sexes are obtained in the progeny in 50 : 50 ratio (Fig. 5.26) as both the types of eggs are produced in equal ratio. 5. Haplodiploidy: It is a type of sex determination in which the male is haploid while the female is diploid. Haplodiploidy occurs in some insects like bees, ants and wasps. Male insects are haploid because they develop partheno-genetically from unfertilized eggs. The phenomenon is called arrhenotoky or arrhenotokous parthenogenesis. Meiosis does not occur during the formation of sperms. Females grow from fertilized eggs and are hence diploid. Queen Bee picks up all the sperms from the drone during nuptial flight and stores the same in her seminal vesicle. Formation of worker bees (diploid females) and drones (haploid males) depends upon the brood cells visited by the queen. While visiting the smaller brood cells, the queen emits sperms from its seminal receptacle after laying the eggs. As it visits the larger brood cells, it lays the eggs but the seminal receptacles fail to emit the sperms due to some sort of pressure on the ducts coming out of them. When a queen is to be formed the workers enlarge one of a small brood cell having fertilized egg and feed the emerging larva on a rich diet. Males are normally fertile haploids due to development from unfertilized eggs. Occasion­ally diploid infertile males are also produced from heterozygous females through fertilization.

Immediately, notice: SEX DETERMINATION SYSTEM, and its ties to onward reproduction. We are XY, which makes maleness and femaleness a crucial diversity for our species. Note too how different systems can be found in similar types of creatures, e.g. crustacea and snakes, guppies [XY] vs groupers and clown fish. Further, we contrast development at various life stages starting with embryonic. Of course the complex system can misfire, and there is obvious potential for lethality if bad enough. The misfires do not change the core. Going beyond, let us note how the objectors above do not elaborate across what Wiki has had to admit against known interest. The failure in this context is significant as manifestly multiple sex determination systems cuts against Darwin-style incrementalism, and indeed points to diversity of functionally specific elements beyond complexity thresholds of scale and irreducibility. Such points to active information as most plausible source of such diversity. That is, to intelligently directed configuration in a context where functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information here shows a clear case of widely diverse islands of function in configuration space. Note, how lethality for sufficient defect is on the table. So, we find a context that ties back to UD's primary focus and turs out to pose what seems to be significant evidence of design of sex determination thus reproduction in ways that frustrate Darwin-style tree of life incrementalism. Indeed, we credibly see here a scattered archipelago of islands of function. Food for thought. KF kairosfocus

F/N: As a summary on differing systems of sex determination, Wiki for convenience:

The ZW sex-determination system is a chromosomal system that determines the sex of offspring in birds, some fish and crustaceans such as the giant river prawn, some insects (including butterflies and moths), the schistosome family of flatworms, and some reptiles, e.g. majority of snakes, lacertid lizards and monitors including Komodo dragons. It is also used in some plants where it has probably evolved independently on several occasions.[1] The letters Z and W are used to distinguish this system from the XY sex-determination system. In this system, females have a pair of dissimilar ZW chromosomes, and males have two similar ZZ chromosomes. In contrast to the XY sex-determination system and the X0 sex-determination system, where the sperm determines the sex, in the ZW system, the ovum determines the sex of the offspring. Males are the homogametic sex (ZZ), while females are the heterogametic sex (ZW). The Z chromosome is larger and has more genes, like the X chromosome in the XY system.

We can see the usual impositions, assertions and telling admissions in the onward discussion:

No genes are shared between the avian ZW and mammalian XY chromosomes,[2] and, from a comparison between chicken and human, the Z chromosome appeared similar to the autosomal chromosome 9 in humans, rather than X or Y, leading researchers to believe that the ZW and XY sex determination systems do not share an origin, but that the sex chromosomes are derived from autosomal chromosomes of the common ancestor. These autosomes are thought to have evolved sex-determining loci that eventually developed into the respective sex chromosomes once the recombination between the chromosomes (X and Y or Z and W) was suppressed.[3] The platypus, a monotreme mammal, has a system of five pairs of XY chromosomes. They form a multiple chain due to homologous regions in male meiosis and finally segregates into XXXXX-sperm and YYYYY-sperm. The bird Z-like pair shows up on opposite ends of the chain. Areas homologous to the bird Z chromosome are scattered throughout X3 and X5.[4]:?fig. 5? Although the sex-determination system is not necessarily linked to that of birds and definitely not to that of therian mammals, the similarity at least allowed for the conclusion that mammals evolved sex chromosomes twice.[5] The previous report that platypus has X chromosomes similar to that of therian mammals is now considered a mistake.[6] Bird and snake ZW are unrelated, having evolved from different autosomes.[7] However, the bird-like chromosomes of platypus may indicate that ancestors of snakes had a bird-like ZW system.[6]

Of course, there is no explanation about how such various forms of FSCO/I on a matter directly tied to reproduction and so survival, could come about by blind incrementalism. So, it seems that we here see yet another case of significant diversity on a pivotal matter crying out for a design inference. But of course, such is strictly verboten. So, maybe something worthwhile can be made of this latest jacobin push. An article on Groupers: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20467860/

Groupers are widely distributed throughout the tropical and subtropical waters of the world and are regarded as a favourite marine food fish. However, their large-scale aquaculture has been hindered by the rarity of natural males. Being protogynous hermaphrodites, groupers have been considered as study model for development and reproduction, especially for sex determination or sex differentiation, owing to the advantage that grouper gonad development undergoes transition from ovary to intersexual gonad and then to testis, and primordial germ cells and different stages of gametic cells during oogenesis and spermatogenesis are synchronously observed in the transitional gonads. Recently, a series of genes related to the reproduction regulation or sex differentiation have been identified in the groupers, mainly by researchers in China. One important finding was that the grouper gene, doublesex/male abnormal 3-related transcription factor 1 (DMRT1), is not only differentially expressed in gonads at different stages, but that it is also restricted to specific stages and specific cells of spermatogenesis. Grouper DMRT1 protein exists only in spermatogonia, primary spermatocytes and secondary spermatocytes, but not in the supporting Sertoli cells. Moreover, no introns were found in the grouper DMRT1, and no duplicated DMRT1 genes were detected. The finding implies that the intronless DMRT1 that is able to undergo rapid transcriptional turnover might be a significant gene for stimulating spermatogenesis in the protogynous hermaphroditic gonad. Additionally, we have found that grouper expression of sex-determining region Y-related high-mobility group-box gene 3 (SOX3) is a significant time point for enterable gametogenesis of primordial germ cells, because SOX3 is obviously expressed and localized in primordial germ cells. As SOX3 continues to express, the SOX3-positive primordial germ cells develop toward oogonia and then oocytes, whereas, when SOX3 expression is ceased, the SOX3-positive primordial germ cells develop toward spermatogonia. Therefore, we suggest that SOX3, as a transcription factor, might have more important roles in oogenesis than in spermatogenesis. Based on the findings, a hypothetic molecular mechanism underlying sex change is proposed in the hermaphroditic groupers, and some candidate genes related to the grouper sex change are also suggested for further research.

We are not groupers. KF kairosfocus

Sc, I am not WJM. Kindly see my just above summary to JVL. It remains the case that we must respect that distinct identity is a first principle: A is itself, i/l/o its core characteristics, starting with a bright red ball on a table or the number 2. In that light, there is such a thing as a nature, not just a haphazard conglomeration of atoms in a shape, with mind and thoughts and morals as so much in the end meaningless noise or delusion or at the least suspect by default. Civilisation is a valuable but fragile major asset for human thriving and so we must be cautious in warranting changes; the track record of jacobinism since 1789 has been consistently misanthropic and destructive, often outright murderous. Ideological, lawless oligarchy is in the end simply another excuse for ruthless power drunk domination. And there are no nine sided hexagons. KF kairosfocus

JVL, I have already sufficiently answered. Relatively rare medical conditions should not become an excuse for jacobins to obfuscate basic realities of our race to impose yet another ill considered misanthropic attempted remake of civilisation. Ever since 1789, we have repeatedly seen where such leads, at great and needless cost. We are not Grouper fish, we do not actually change sex given dynamics of XX vs XY chromosomes, despite chemical and/or surgical manipulation; where there has been a push to do same to children, who manifestly have not got the level of maturity to make decisions. As for playing at social roles, we need to recall that for millennia, women have known that they are a prey species for the deadliest predator ever to walk this planet, the human male, hence for instance the crime, rape, cultural norms of gentleman-ship and lady-ship, segregation of bathrooms, modesty codes, and much more. Also, the need for sex segregated sports. It is astonishing that such well established themes have to be re argued, thanks to the latest ideological pushes and of course the linked destructive errors of selective hyperskepticism: skepticism, manifestly is no true intellectual virtue, right reason, associated prudence and judiciousness seeking warrant and recognising lack thereof as secondary knowledge are. But Gresham's Law is not just about money, it seems poor thinking drives out good, too. As I noted, there are people with medical conditions, who should be treated as such, but even such must be reckoned in the context of the prey species issue and the pivotal fact of the centrality of maleness and femaleness to our race. Where, there are no nine sided hexagons. KF. kairosfocus

Seversky@93, which begs the question, why did WJM direct his question to two people who are on record as stating that they don’t believe that transgendered should be allowed to compete in women’s sport? Scamp

Andrew: Correct me if I’m wrong, JVL, but I think it is you who is reluctant to answer questions about worldviews.

Nope. That’s me. Scamp

Asauber: Correct me if I’m wrong, JVL, but I think it is you who is reluctant to answer questions about worldviews. As I've already said: your dodge and deflect strategy is not something I'm going to play along with. Any objective reader who had read all my replies on this thread would probably already know what my views are. But you pretend not to. Or you haven't bothered to read things that are not specifically addressed to you. Whatever. You're not playing fair. JVL

Vividbleau: As to sports I like your thoughts as expressed in 78. Thanks for that. If they have both genitalia ( don’t know if this applies ) they should choose whatever bathroom they want. So, self-selection is okay for clear physical ambiguity? If it exists? In other words, in some situations, it's okay if the person decides what gender they should be considered? JVL

William J Murray/82

Whether or not you self-identify as a woman, and whether or not you have surgery and/or hormonal treatment is entirely irrelevant because the categories in sports are not based on gender, they are based on sex, which is determined by the presence of the XX or XY chromosome in your DNA, and hormonal therapy for the purpose of competitive advantage is not allowed. To be clear, using hormone therapy as a means to move into a category of sports where you will have a competitive advantage because of your XY biology is using hormone therapy to gain competitive advantage.

Agreed. And, just to be clear, acknowledging the existence of transgender individuals and making such minor accommodations for them as society decides are necessary are not going to shake Western civilization to its foundations and neither is it going to have any effect on happily cisgender males or females in the slightest. Seversky

"How does your worldview..." Correct me if I'm wrong, JVL, but I think it is you who is reluctant to answer questions about worldviews. Andrew asauber

Asauber: You asked a question of KF. I asked a question of you. You keep dodging and deflecting. AND not answering questions. Too bad your strategy is so obvious. You address my queries (which you chose to participate in) and then I'll address yours. Or, you can keep running away. It's your call. JVL

JVL “How does your worldview think intersex individuals should be treated? Which bathrooms should they be allowed to use? Which sports categories should they be allowed to participate in? When you address my query I shall be glad to address yours.” They, like men who think they are women , should be treated respectfully of course. Regarding bathrooms. If they have genitalia that should determine what bathroom they should use. If they have both genitalia ( don’t know if this applies ) they should choose whatever bathroom they want. As to sports I like your thoughts as expressed in 78. Vivid vividbleau

No penises in women’s spaces. Period. Continued... https://youtu.be/FJfPqcD8RKM?t=461 --Ram ram

No penises in women's spaces. Period. https://twitter.com/madeleinekearns/status/1505892843247841288 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0_BAqhL744&t=14s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcXTxl-Or0M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhWo1AOrSrY --Ram ram

"I asked a question. I expect, out of courtesy at least, that you reply to that after which I shall be glad to answer your question." JVL, You asked a question of KF. I asked a question of you. Andrew asauber

JVL “. If we waited until they were a legal adult and let them select whether to be male or female would you have a problem with that?” No Vivid vividbleau

KF: Seems to me the Durian Fruit principle arises: we may be led to or inclined to reject the good because it may have off-putting aspects.

I suggest that you take this approach with respect to transgendered. Although you think that the idea is off-putting, being accepting and supportive of transgendered is a good thing. Scamp

KF: 1. Why do we have women’s sports at all? Why not just have sports, and anyone who wants to compete is welcome?

I have already stated that I don’t believe transgendered should be allowed to compete in women’s sports. So I don’t think your questions should be addressed to me.

Supplemental hormonal therapy is not allowed in competitive sports.

There are medical exemptions for taking prohibited substances. I’m not sure if supplemental hormone therapy applies. I imagine that a woman who has had a hysterectomy or a man who has had his testicles removed could get an exemption for hormone therapy. Scamp

Kairosfocus: I already noted that medical (and related) challenges should be treated as such, And how would that be done in the case of intersex individuals? Let's say a baby was born with both a penis and a vagina, what would you do? (And yes, such cases are known.). It's easy enough to find stories of people whose 'sex' was chosen for them by parents and surgeons. Some of them later resented the assignment chosen. If we waited until they were a legal adult and let them select whether to be male or female would you have a problem with that? You think that my bringing up things is just bowing to some current fad or trying to undercut some of the structures you see as essential for sound government and civilisation. But I am talking about some real conditions suffered by real people and, my contention is, I think they way you chose to deal with such medical conditions says something about the way you chose to deal with other gender issues. The fact that you cannot address these real medical issues, just like you have problems understanding trans issues, seems to give support to my contention. JVL

So, rational answers to those questions I posed make this all very clear and easy. Sports are segregated by biological sex (XY vs XX chromosome) and not social gender (accepting "gender" as a social designation arguendo here.) Supplemental hormonal therapy is not allowed in competitive sports. Both of these things are designed to keep the competition between individuals as fair as possible. Whether or not you self-identify as a woman, and whether or not you have surgery and/or hormonal treatment is entirely irrelevant because the categories in sports are not based on gender, they are based on sex, which is determined by the presence of the XX or XY chromosome in your DNA, and hormonal therapy for the purpose of competitive advantage is not allowed. To be clear, using hormone therapy as a means to move into a category of sports where you will have a competitive advantage because of your XY biology is using hormone therapy to gain competitive advantage. William J Murray

My questions to Scamp and Seversky: 1. Why do we have women's sports at all? Why not just have sports, and anyone who wants to compete is welcome? 2. Are sports separated by sex (biology,) or by gender (social classification?) 3. If sports are separated by gender, then what does it matter if someone is transitioning or has transitioned via surgery and hormonal therapy? Isn't just self-identifying as one gender or the other enough? 4. Why not just allow men to compete in women's sports regardless of how they self-identify, and regardless of whether or not they are trans? Why would "considering yourself a woman" in your own mind be a substantive value worth considering? 5. In most sports at both the professional and official amateur level, use of steroids (various forms of testosterone) are prohibited to prevent anyone from having an unfair advantage. How is the use of hormonal therapy, such as using forms of estrogen, any different? Why is it allowed? Why don't these organizations allow men to become "more male" by using additional testosterone/steroids? 6. Why shouldn't women be allowed to take steroids/testosterone to be able to better compete? 7. If not biology, then what or who decides which sports category (men's or women's) any individual can compete on, and if hormonal therapy is allowed in sports in any individual instance because that person wants to use it for the better realization of their personal idea of their own gender, how is it fair that anyone is denied the use of any such hormonal therapy in sports? William J Murray

Seems to me the Durian Fruit principle arises: we may be led to or inclined to reject the good because it may have off-putting aspects. kairosfocus

PS, it so happens that I know a woman from a family where breasts are non functional. That is an example of a medical challenge and it is treated as such. kairosfocus

Vividbleau: I can say this intersex individuals are actually intersex individuals and biological men who think they are women are not actually women. That is the topic at hand and your query is nothing but a distraction. They are two totally different situations but as I said previously I will answer your query to KF later. Thank you in advance. I wouldn't have addressed anything to you if you had not written a message to me. So, I assumed, you wanted to be part of the conversation. My point is that the way we treat transgender individuals and hermaphrodites and the other biologically intersex individuals should be considered part of a general scheme or strategy or approach. A hermaphrodite will have to pick the mens' room or the womens' room at a restaurant or public venue. They will have to 'self identify' as one or the other even though they are neither, biologically. So, is there that much different for those suffering from gender dysphoria or some such for the rest of us? Physical and sexual abuse are abuse, no question, regardless of the perpetrator and their identity. We have laws protecting the innocent. No one is talking about relaxing those. Dealing with sports is a tricky situation and I have even heard some 'materialists' say that trans-women should not be allow to compete in womens' events. There is no easy or clear answer and each case is different. All I can say is that the sporting organisations should have a large and wide-ranging conversation with the athletes and the advocacy groups. I'm not smart enough or insightful enough to have a solution AND it's not up to me anyway. I think the people who are most affected should have the most say and that's the athletes. There is the unfortunate lack of symmetry as well: most biologically male athletes would not object to a trans-man competing in their sport. Just some of my thoughts. JVL

JVL, it is obvious -- and, frankly, self evident -- that propagation of our race rests on the two complementary sexes, linked stable family structures etc being important for thriving of individuals and communities. It is jacobin misanthropy that exploits rare medical challenges and fairly rare psycho-social disorders to try to obfuscate the facts of maleness and femaleness in our species; where, unlike Groupers, we don't go through sex changes because our sexes are based on XX and XY chromosomes. We are mammals, as functional mammary glands in the female body demonstrate, with an echo in the male chest. The projection that it is in effect bigotry to recognise such facts is ugly slander against reality and those who decline to become habitual liars as the latest radical agendas and fads demand. What is neighbour loving and just is to recognise that no one can have a right to demand enabling of falsehoods and evils more generally, i.e. sound conscience is sacrosanct and rights claims -- which are moral claims -- can only be justified when the claimant is manifestly in the right. All people have rights but rights must be part of the due balance of rights, freedoms, duties that constitutes the civil peace of justice. What is being done is in fact precisely the sort of breach as Havel pointed out. I already noted that medical (and related) challenges should be treated as such, without undermining the core fact that we come in two complementary sexes generally marked by XX and XY chromosomes. Which, was the generally recognised position until the latest demands of radicalism have been pushed with obvious intent to make the absurd and perverse denial of the fact of our two sexes the new norm of untruth backed by power and attacking sound conscience. Which is anticivilisational and misanthropic. But then, turnabout projection has been a long noted tactic of the jacobins. In retort, we can freely infer confession by projection, i.e. anticivilisational and misanthropic intent have been implicitly acknowledged. Beyond that I duly note your personalising-polarising gambits and reject them out of hand. The substance remains, there are no nine sided hexagons. KF kairosfocus

JVL I can say this intersex individuals are actually intersex individuals and biological men who think they are women are not actually women. That is the topic at hand and your query is nothing but a distraction. They are two totally different situations but as I said previously I will answer your query to KF later. Vivid vividbleau

JVL I can say this intersex individuals are actually intersex individual and biological men who think they are women are not women. That is the topic at hand and your query is nothing but a distraction. They are two totally different situations but as I said previously I will answer your query to KF later. Vivid vividbleau

JVL “When you address my query I shall be glad to address yours.” You never asked me a question however I will take the high road and address your query to KF when I have some time. Vivid vividbleau

Vividbleau: And this brings me back to one of MANY questions that no one yet apparently will answer so I will ask you. What is a woman? How does your worldview think intersex individuals should be treated? Which bathrooms should they be allowed to use? Which sports categories should they be allowed to participate in? When you address my query I shall be glad to address yours. JVL

Asauber: You are concerned about how people should be treated. Well, I’m trying to find out if you are serious or just trolling. You are performing one of your classic dodge and deflect moves: when asked a question you don't have an answer for or you figure your opinion will be vilified or made fun of you insist your 'opponent' answer your question first, knowing you will disagree with it and thereby be able to refuse to answer their question because your opponent's view is 'not serious' or not acceptable by your standards. You do this all the time. In this particular case, once you realised your simplistic view does not accommodate all the actually, real data, you figured you could avoid looking foolish by trying to make someone else look foolish. I'm not playing that game. I asked a question. I expect, out of courtesy at least, that you reply to that after which I shall be glad to answer your question. JVL

Sc, sex is decisively biologically driven in our species -- we are not Grouper fish -- based on XX vs XY chromosomes. There are rare medical conditions that should be recognised as that, not ideologically abused to obfuscate the self-evident facts of the two sexes and their critical importance to the future of our race. But then, the base problem is that there is an agenda of untruth seeking to intimidate people into being habitual liars. The refusal to recognise what that implies, is telling, sadly so. So, again, show us a nine sided hexagon. KF PS: Let us hear Havel in the epochal essay that helped change the world:

The manager of a fruit-and-vegetable shop places in his window, among the onions and carrots, the slogan: "Workers of the world, unite!" Why does he do it? What is he trying to communicate to the world? Is he genuinely enthusiastic about the idea of unity among the workers of the world? Is his enthusiasm so great that he feels an irrepressible impulse to acquaint the public with his ideals? Has he really given more than a moment's thought to how such a unification might occur and what it would mean? I think it can safely be assumed that the overwhelming majority of shopkeepers never think about the slogans they put in their windows, nor do they use them to express their real opinions. That poster was delivered to our greengrocer from the enterprise headquarters along with the onions and carrots. He put them all into the window simply because it has been done that way for years, because everyone does it, and because that is the way it has to be. If he were to refuse, there could be trouble. He could be reproached for not having the proper decoration in his window; someone might even accuse him of disloyalty. He does it because these things must be done if one is to get along in life. It is one of the thousands of details that guarantee him a relatively tranquil life "in harmony with society," as they say. Obviously the greengrocer is indifferent to the semantic content of the slogan on exhibit; he does not put the slogan in his window from any personal desire to acquaint the public with the ideal it expresses. This, of course, does not mean that his action has no motive or significance at all, or that the slogan communicates nothing to anyone. The slogan is really a sign, and as such it contains a subliminal but very definite message. Verbally, it might be expressed this way: "I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests? Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth. The greengrocer would be embarrassed and ashamed to put such an unequivocal statement of his own degradation in the shop window, and quite naturally so, for he is a human being and thus has a sense of his own dignity. To overcome this complication, his expression of loyalty must take the form of a sign which, at least on its textual surface, indicates a level of disinterested conviction. It must allow the greengrocer to say, "What's wrong with the workers of the world uniting?" Thus the sign helps the greengrocer to conceal from himself the low foundations of his obedience, at the same time concealing the low foundations of power.

A lesson. kairosfocus

F/N: Am Spec: https://spectator.org/kbj-hearings-typify-our-debased-political-discourse/ >>after [Judge] Jackson’s unnecessarily evasive answer to the inevitable “woman question” posed by Sen. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.), USA Today’s Alia E. Dastagir came to the rescue using a term that has been much abused of late: “Marsha Blackburn asked Ketanji Brown Jackson to define ‘woman.’ Science says there’s no simple answer.” Science™ was also invoked by Salon’s Matthew Rozca: “Republicans get the science behind sexual difference wrong during Supreme Court nominee hearing.”>> KF kairosfocus

Vivid: Hermaphrodites are, drum roll ,not denying reality!! Hermaphrodites are, drum roll, hermaphrodites !

And yet it was common practice, and may still be, to conduct surgery on hermaphrodite babies and raise them as male or female, not as a hermaphrodite. Without the informed consent of the individual, and sometimes without the consent of the parents. Scamp

KF: Sev, Sc, predictable and predictably in error. We are dealing with human beings, and we know the pattern, with the issue that there are medical problems some have. We do not decide a matter so key to the thriving of civilisation and the race on relatively rare medical challenges that need to be treated as such. KF

You are dodging the issue that you and most others here agree that all observed traits arise not as a deterministic result of the DNA and genes. That great variation is often due to many other factors. But you ignore the fact that the same might apply to gender. What we do know is that the brain structure and activity of transgendered more closely resembles that of the gender they identify as than they do of their biological sex. They may be living a delusion or they may really share more in common with women than men. After all, we are all far more than just our genitalia. But you, for some reason, are obsessed with genitalia. As I have mentioned before, you are free to treat them in whatever way you see fit. As long as you are not causing harm. I choose to do what an ever increasing majority of the population has decided to do and accept them and support them in their personal pursuit of happiness. Scamp

JVL “there are literally millions of human beings on the planet that do not fit well into traditional male or female categories” The world’s population is approximately 8 billion, percentage estimates for birth rates ( approximately 140 million per year) for hermaphrodites are 1.7%. Hermaphrodites are, drum roll ,not denying reality!! Hermaphrodites are, drum roll, hermaphrodites ! Non hermaphrodite men who think they are women are denying reality. Not in the sense that they don’t actually think they are women rather by thinking they are a woman that makes them a woman. And this brings me back to one of MANY questions that no one yet apparently will answer so I will ask you. What is a woman? Vivid vividbleau

JVL, you too. KF kairosfocus

JVL, You are concerned about how people should be treated. Well, I'm trying to find out if you are serious or just trolling. Andrew asauber

"Let me guess your attempt to catch me out:" JVL, I'm asking you a relevant question. If you are too much a coward to answer it, I won't be surprised. Andrew asauber

Asauber: In an ideal non-binary framework, when should any human being (God’s child) obtain rights? Let me guess your attempt to catch me out: I'm supposed to say: they should all have rights and then you're going to give some anti-abortion argument. Is that about right? Perhaps you'd like to address the actual point being argued: there are literally millions of human beings on the planet that do not fit well into traditional male or female categories. How do you propose they be treated compared to everyone else? JVL

"How do they fit into your black-and-white dichotomy?" So JVL, In an ideal non-binary framework, when should any human being (God's child) obtain rights? Andrew asauber

Sev, Sc, predictable and predictably in error. We are dealing with human beings, and we know the pattern, with the issue that there are medical problems some have. We do not decide a matter so key to the thriving of civilisation and the race on relatively rare medical challenges that need to be treated as such. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: Rare medical conditions should not be permitted to warp that normal framework. The point is that your framework should include everyone. All of God's creatures. Looking at the frequency of some of the known and documented conditions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex) we are talking about millions of individuals. How do they fit into your black-and-white dichotomy? When you insist on slotting everyone into two different categories you are ignoring and disregarding more people across the planet with real medically documented conditions than live in France. Would you blame them if they find your stance unloving? What if one of your own children fell into one of the inter-sex categories? Would you be so insensitive then? JVL

"A newly fertilized embryo" ...is a person? Andrew asauber

"transgender people are real" So, scientifically and quantifiably, what is a transgender person? What are the test results that identify transgender? Andrew asauber

Seversky, very interesting clip. What I find odd is that the very people who argue that DNA is not deterministic for all other traits, insist that it is deterministic for gender, and to suggest otherwise brands you as a liar. Scamp

Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia Actual research shows that sex is anything but binary […] Nearly everyone in middle school biology learned that if you’ve got XX chromosomes, you’re a female; if you’ve got XY, you’re a male. This tired simplification is great for teaching the importance of chromosomes but betrays the true nature of biological sex. The popular belief that your sex arises only from your chromosomal makeup is wrong. The truth is, your biological sex isn’t carved in stone, but a living system with the potential for change. Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY. A newly fertilized embryo initially develops without any indication of its sex. At around five weeks, a group of cells clump together to form the bipotential primordium. These cells are neither male nor female but have the potential to turn into testes, ovaries or neither. After the primordium forms, SRY—a gene on the Y chromosome discovered in 1990, thanks to the participation of intersex XX males and XY females—might be activated. Though it is still not fully understood, we know SRY plays a role in pushing the primordium toward male gonads. But SRY is not a simple on/off switch, it’s a precisely timed start signal, the first chord of the “male gonad” symphony. A group of cells (instrument sections) must all express SRY (notes of the chord), at the right time (conductor?). Without that first chord, the embryo will play a different symphony: female gonads, or something in between. And there’s more! While brief and coordinated SRY-activation initiates the process of male-sex differentiation, genes like DMRT1 and FOXL2 maintain certain sexual characteristics during adulthood. If these genes stop functioning, gonads can change and exhibit characteristics of the opposite sex. Without these players constantly active, certain components of your biological sex can change. There’s still more! SRY, DMRT1, and FOXL2 aren’t directly involved with other aspects of biological sex. Secondary sex characteristics—penis, vagina, appearance, behavior—arise later, from hormones, environment, experience, and genes interacting. To explore this, we move from the body to the brain, where biology becomes behavior. […] SCIENCE AND SOCIETY: BETTER TOGETHER While this is a small overview, the science is clear and conclusive: sex is not binary, transgender people are real. It is time that we acknowledge this. Defining a person’s sex identity using decontextualized “facts” is unscientific and dehumanizing. The trans experience provides essential insights into the science of sex and scientifically demonstrates that uncommon and atypical phenomena are vital for a successful living system. Even the scientific endeavor itself is quantifiably better when it is more inclusive and diverse. So, no matter what a pundit, politician or internet troll may say, trans people are an indispensable part of our living reality. Transgender humans represent the complexity and diversity that are fundamental features of life, evolution and nature itself. That is a fact.

Seversky

LCD, Zelenko is dead on target. KF kairosfocus

Sc, among others, you obviously are. And you know it; you have lost regard for manifest truth, which goes to due evaluation of your arguments. To establish the principle at stake, there are distinctions that are inherent and to be duly recognised, you patently cannot show to us a nine sided hexagon. FYI, a man is an adult male human, with XY chromosomes, and a woman an adult female with XX -- both tied to our reproductive biology, a naturally rooted accurate description that is evident even to a young child. Rare medical conditions should not be permitted to warp that normal framework. It is truthfulness, not discrimination or injustice or bigotry or being impolite to point this out or to recognise this in referring to persons of the two sexes . . . note, I here refuse to use the doubletalk, newspeak corrupted term, gender. That backed by intimidation and the like we are now being pressured to enable ideologically imposed falsehoods on sexuality, family and the like is already a grave warping of truth on a pivotal matter for survival and thriving of our race - classic jacobin misanthropy, but it also establishes and mainstreams theses regarding core characteristics, identity and resulting naturally evident distinctions that just to be in contact with reality it is vital to acknowledge. Nominalism backed by power agendas is here showing just how potentially dangerous it is, starting with undermining of truth as accurate description of reality, whether entities, states of affairs, etc. KF PS, in a further speaking with disregard to truth, you omitted that the US DoI starts by speaking of the laws of nature and of nature's God; this being philosophical language responding to our creation order as it next refers in defining that we have key rights. BTW, there is and can be no due right to compel another under threat of sanction, to enable or uphold one in wrong, including forcing people to habitually lie in the face of manifest reality. That deliberate erosion of conscience under implicit threat is one of the key techniques of ideological oppression identified by Havel in his essay, power of the powerless, or for that matter it is there in the novel that exposes such tyrannies, 1984. Notice, Winston Smith works in the Ministry of Truth tasked with rewriting truth into convenient and ever changing lies that people are compelled to parrot, e.g. in the two minute hate ritual. kairosfocus

https://rumble.com/vw26cc-who-will-you-bow-to.html Lieutenant Commander Data

KF: I repeat, I will not become a habitual liar,

And who is asking you to be one? All people are asking is that transgendered be afforded their inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I don’t have to agree with their choices to support their right to make them. That is not being a liar. That is just living up to the ideals expressed in the DoI. Scamp

Vivid, disregard for truth and for consequences of untruth backed by power, too. Sad. But, negative credibility. KF kairosfocus

KF Keep in mind that I and others have demonstrated that Scamp is a misogynist, an oppressor of women and an advocate for child abuse ( groomer). That’s one sick puppy so keep that in mind as he brazenly lectures you about your real or perceived shortcomings. I fully expect in a few years he/ she will be telling us that pedophiles cause no harm. “Good evening. As Lierre said, my name is Kara Dansky, and I serve on the board of the Women’s Liberation Front. I am an attorney with a background in women’s rights, criminal justice, and civil rights. It’s wonderful to be in Seattle. I used to live here, and it’s great to be back. Go Seahawks, go Beast Mode, we had a good run this season. I am here to talk about gender identity in the law, and I will do that. But first, I would like to make a brief statement. “ I AM EXTREMELY ANGRY” manner, as we, as women, are required to do. “To be clear, I do not think that any of us actually want to be talking about gender identity at all. In addition to her feminist work, Lierre has spent her entire adult life and career fighting for the planet and its inhabitants. I suspect that Meghan would probably rather speak out against the violence of pornography and prostitution, and that Saba would prefer to spend her time ending the violence of racism. I would very much like to be fighting for reproductive sovereignty for women, including abortion on demand and without apology. All of us have spent our lives fighting for justice, in one way or another. And yet now we all find ourselves in the following situation: We have to talk about the violence, misogyny, and homophobia of gender identity because we have no choice but to do so. But, then, men forcing women to do things that we do not want to do is hardly novel.” “The upshot of all of this is that it is simply not possible to both protect and women and girls and protect gender identity in the law. Federal law can protect women and girls in order to make up for centuries of unfairness and injustice, or it can protect a self-declared and undefined “identity.” It cannot do both. So let’s pull this all together. The men in power for thousands of years enacted countless laws with the deliberate intention of keeping women out of power and out of civil society, purely on the basis of sex. And now, at the altar of “gender identity,” we are expected to simply pretend that sex does not exist. No.” https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5f232ea74d8342386a7ebc52/t/5f39a19bd67d3172af78c053/1597612445241/Kara-Dansky-New-Misogyny.pdf Vivid vividbleau

Sc, 1789 was a change in society. So, were 1917, 1933 and 1948. Jacobin changes based on untruth and attacking sound conscience are not a recipe for a good outcome. I repeat, I will not become a habitual liar, and that is not raillery, it is truth. Truth, you cannot acknowledge, it seems. Explains a lot, sadly. KF kairosfocus

JVL: What ‘truth’ can be applied to such individuals?

Well, obviously, they shouldn’t be allowed to compete in sports, use a gender specific bathroom or a gender specific change room. And don’t get me on about pronouns. Being in any way accepting and supportive of them being able to dress and behave as the gender they choose to identify as will only lead to the downfall of civilization. I think Bill Murray said it best. https://youtu.be/JmzuRXLzqKk Scamp

How about The Third Sex , a bit like The Third Way? Or abbreviate "intersex" to "iSex" and get Apple to promote it so it would become really cool. Seversky

Just curious . . . what do think should be the approach for those who are genetically 'intersex', used to be called hermaphrodites. They do exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

According to the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights: Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies. Intersex is an umbrella term used to describe a wide range of natural bodily variations. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica: Individuals with mixtures of male and female characters (usually sterile) are known as intersexes.

What 'truth' can be applied to such individuals? JVL

KF: Sc, that is because, you have already refused to acknowledge what is written into our XX and XY chromosomes. And more. You are simply letting us know the pattern in your thinking. Show us a nine sided hexagon and explain to us why we should call Mx 9-sider that xe is indeed a hexagon as xe demands to be addressed, here in Flatland under new management of the jacobins. KF

You are free to continue to rail against any changes in society but myself and an ever increasing majority of the population will continue to advocate for a person’s freedom to live their lives however they would like as long as they are causing no harm. According to you, and the DoI, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable rights. Apparently, in your mind, that only applies to people who share your views? At present two of the freedoms that are being resisted by a rapidly shrinking minority are the public acceptance of same sex marriage and transgendered. Your continued refusal to allow these freedoms will only lead to bitterness on your part. Scamp

Vivid

As you know I have repeatedly made this point over and over again and have heard nothing but crickets from the other side. Their solutions tacitly admit they are not women yet they insist that they are.

I think people are trying to be charitable by going along with the fantasy. They know that a man cannot turn into a woman just because he thinks he can. But they will say "a person can create their own identity and it doesn't hurt anybody. We can be courteous and go along with it". But as you and others have pointed out, it does cause serious and real harm. Silver Asiatic

Por ejemplo https://twitter.com/zhenryaz/status/1506465657650651136 kairosfocus

SA, KF I find it comical that Sev and Scamp can’t even define what a woman is yet they insist that men who think they are women are woman. Can someone explain that to me? Vivid vividbleau

SA “I fully agree. You’re making it clear that you reject the idea that transgendered men are women. They’re men and they should not compete with women. That should be obvious to everyone but it is not.” Thank you. As you know I have repeatedly made this point over and over again and have heard nothing but crickets from the other side. Their solutions tacitly admit they are not women yet they insist that they are. “Personally, using the pronouns “she” and “her” when referring to a transgendered person is no more a demand on my soul than the change from Miss and Mrs to Ms was. Or hearing a minister pronounce “I now pronounce you husband and husband.” You made me spill my beer. The above actually disproves the very thing you think it proves. I will let you figure out why. Vivid vividbleau

Seversky

I’m more concerned with ensuring that women competitors in certain sports are not subject to unnecessary risk of physical injury or to an unfair competitive disadvantage.

I fully agree. You're making it clear that you reject the idea that transgendered men are women. They're men and they should not compete with women. That should be obvious to everyone but it is not.

Aside from sports, transgender individuals should be entitled to all the same human rights and civil liberties as cisgender individuals and, out of common courtesy, they should be addressed like anyone else by their preferred name and pronoun. I don’t see that as too much to ask.

But you know, clearly, that they're delusional. They're not just wanting to be called a certain name - they want to be fully accepted as what they are not. Transgendered men are not women. You know this. It's not a courtesy to them to promote their false belief. We are just keeping them entrapped in a delusion. It's not healthy for them or for society for anybody to live that way. Silver Asiatic

Vivid, and that is part of the point. If you have lost the sense of duty to truth, right reason and warrant, just for starters on Cicero's list, then what else do you have left to your conscience or credibility as a responsible, rational person? KF kairosfocus

KF “Sev, asking people to live by habitual lying about naturally evident realities under threat of ever ratcheting up domineering backed by power is not normal expectation of polite conduct;” Unfortunately this not a problem for those who traffic in lies, since they lie they are bewildered that others won’t join them in their lies. Vivid vividbleau

Sc, that is because, you have already refused to acknowledge what is written into our XX and XY chromosomes. And more. You are simply letting us know the pattern in your thinking. Show us a nine sided hexagon and explain to us why we should call Mx 9-sider that xe is indeed a hexagon as xe demands to be addressed, here in Flatland under new management of the jacobins. KF kairosfocus

F/N, there is an underlying issue, nominalism, that needs to be addressed. It is an extremely radical notion that there are no inherent, natural, defining/identifying distinctive characteristics that can be evident so that language, to be truthful, must refer accurately. One consequence, is that key terms and states of affairs are simply matters of balances of power and associated conventions that can be changed at will of sufficiently powerful factions. Further to which, once power has spoken, for the weak to question or object is automatically to be in the wrong and subject to penalty. Law becomes, whatever those who control the legal presses decree. Rights become just one more decree. Justice, a matter of whatever is convenient to the powers. Ask the ghost of Milada Horakova about show trials on trumped up charges. And, there is no true human nature, there is no inherent value to life, or liberty, or conscience, etc. As a descendant of slaves, I object, as I know from bitterly bought lessons of history, where such a jacobin train of abuses and usurpations ends: the platform with the guillotine on it, baying crowd waiting to be entertained. So, again, I ask, show me a nine sided hexagon. KF kairosfocus

Sev, asking people to live by habitual lying about naturally evident realities under threat of ever ratcheting up domineering backed by power is not normal expectation of polite conduct; it is willful intimidation to erode integrity, something profoundly misanthropic and a longstanding part of jacobinism. This is part of the reason why I have repeatedly pointed us to the story of the greengrocer in Havel's essay, the power of the powerless. I suggest we would all benefit from a reading. KF kairosfocus

Seversky: Aside from sports, transgender individuals should be entitled to all the same human rights and civil liberties as cisgender individuals and, out of common courtesy, they should be addressed like anyone else by their preferred name and pronoun. I don’t see that as too much to ask.

I couldn’t have said it better. But, unfortunately, there are those who believe that this common courtesy

demands our souls, piece by piece, as the price of not being pounced on by activists and fellow travellers just now.

Personally, using the pronouns “she” and “her” when referring to a transgendered person is no more a demand on my soul than the change from Miss and Mrs to Ms was. Or hearing a minister pronounce “I now pronounce you husband and husband.” Scamp

Sc, People who value truth and refuse to become habitual liars even under intimidation through false colours of law much less of "progress" -- the very term tells us, there is always going to be another demand -- did not start a fight; we found ourselves with a fight interested in us. A fight that demands our souls, piece by piece, as the price of not being pounced on by activists and fellow travellers just now. In short, "a long train of abuses and usurpations . . . " These are things you refuse to acknowledge, just as previously, you refused to acknowledge that others had a serious grievance over being pressured in much the same way to repeatedly push experimental drugs with high adverse events rates into their bodies without adequate information and under threat to livelihood. This is part of a pattern, in short, and a sadly telling one. Mr Smith, while you are on the rack, what is 2 + 2? KF kairosfocus

Silver Asiatic/17

Vivid responded @11 but I’ll just echo it. I just nudge you to realize that your instincts are in the right direction but that comment runs afoul of wokeism.

Possibly, but a lot of "wokeism" to me reduces to just virtue-signaling. I'm more concerned with ensuring that women competitors in certain sports are not subject to unnecessary risk of physical injury or to an unfair competitive disadvantage. For the purposes of certain sports, I think there should be a separate category for transgender competitors because of the observable physical disparities. Aside from sports, transgender individuals should be entitled to all the same human rights and civil liberties as cisgender individuals and, out of common courtesy, they should be addressed like anyone else by their preferred name and pronoun. I don't see that as too much to ask. Seversky

Scamp I notice you lump homosexuals with transgenderism you are wrong, as usual, to do so. From USA Today. Same-sex marriage advocates didn't want to change anyone's biology. “But is the plight of the trans person the same as the gay or lesbian person? Are gay and transgender folks one and the same, or is there a good cause to argue that “L” & “G” should drop the “T” from their movement? Make no mistake, the gay community needs to file for divorce with the trans community. They are no longer working toward the same goals, and South Dakota is Exhibit A. The issues facing the transgender community today are wholly different and separate from those facing the gay community. Unlike members of the trans community, who are working against their biology and trying to change who they are physically, gay or lesbian people are trying to be nobody but themselves. They are not seeking surgery or hormone treatments.They love the same gender; they don’t want to be a different gender. That is a great distinction in the post-Obergefell world. In order to achieve marriage equality, gay people were not trying to upend the social construct of marriage; they were trying to obtain participation rights. Huge difference.” https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/02/28/gay-rights-trans-rights-south-dakota-bathroom-legislation-column/80710176/ Vivid vividbleau

CD “Not likely.” I don’t know whats likely or unlikely in todays world. I would have thought a lot of things unlikely a few years ago. “The rape victim would not be an employee of the DA’s office, nor a party to the action and would be free to testify in her or his own words”. Good point and she addressed that. “But we haven’t seen any of this play out quite yet in the legal system, but it’ll be very interesting to watch. There is one case in the Sixth Circuit coming out of Ohio, where a professor refused to use so-called preferred pronouns. He was disciplined by the public university, his employer, but he was vindicated in court at the appellate level. So that’s a good sign that our first amendment might protect us in a way that, for example, Canadians aren’t protected.” Vivid vividbleau

Vividbleau @ 26

“The district attorney of San Francisco has recently issued an order, all of the staff in his office are now required to use so-called preferred pronouns in court, which could potentially mean that a rape victim might be required to refer to a male alleged rapist as “she” on the witness stand....

Not likely. The rape victim would not be an employee of the DA's office, nor a party to the action and would be free to testify in her or his own words. chuckdarwin

KF: Sc, mutual respect does not entail enabling or demanding enabling of delusions and lies about fundamental, genetically stamped — XX, XY — aspects of our humanity.

You live your life your way and I will live my life in mine. If I tried to life my life as you do my conscience simply wouldn’t let me sleep at night. The fact that more and more people are changing to my way of thought with regard to homosexuals and transgendered is heartening. Society will be better for it. Scamp

Sc, mutual respect does not entail enabling or demanding enabling of delusions and lies about fundamental, genetically stamped -- XX, XY -- aspects of our humanity. As I have noted, power backed, imposed untruth always attacks sound conscience. As for me, for cause, I simply will not lie that a man is a woman or the like, not even under threat from unjust decrees under false colour of law. My spiritual forebears literally were thrown to the lions for the claimed disloyalty of refusing to sprinkle salt in a flame and declaring Caesar is Lord. I hope this helps you understand the sort of line we are beginning to cross again as our civilisation decays. KF kairosfocus

Scamp “transgendered are causing no harm” Yes they are. https://www.iwf.org/2021/12/10/one-feminists-perspective-on-how-the-transgender-agenda-harms-women-girls/ Here is just a snippet. “So one implication that I think is not well understood is the phenomenon that we are literally seeing playing out today in prisons in the United States is that convicted rapists and murderers who are men are being housed in women’s prisons. A lot of people know that this is happening in California thanks to the Women’s Liberation Front for filing a lawsuit, challenging the law that allows that, mandates that. It’s also happening in Washington State but it’s also happening across the country.” “If we’re not allowed to acknowledge the reality of biological sex, we can’t talk honestly about the phenomenon of male violence against women. And that’s really, really dangerous.” “He,” of course, because he is. But we should say there are efforts around the world to actually criminalize the use of accurate sex pronouns. And it’ll be very interesting to see whether our first amendment protects us in a way, for example, that Canadian law does not protect Canadians. There’s an effort right now to make the use of accurate sex pronouns a hate crime.” “The district attorney of San Francisco has recently issued an order, all of the staff in his office are now required to use so-called preferred pronouns in court, which could potentially mean that a rape victim might be required to refer to a male alleged rapist as “she” on the witness stand, which I would argue would constitute perjury.” “Feminist Janice Raymond wrote a book in 1979 called “The Transsexual Empire,” which predicted all of this. And she re-produced it in 1994 with an introduction that talks about the invention of the word transgender and how it’s going to harm women and girls in particular, though we need to be clear, it harms everybody. The abolition of sex harms everybody. “ Vivid vividbleau

Scamp You are the one that wants to deny women the opportunity to participate in women's sports. I find it ironic that you are lecturing us as to why we should be misogynists. But you are probably a man and as I stated on the other thread men have been oppressing women for thousands of years so I am not surprised that if you are a man that is your position. Vivid vividbleau

KF: Sc, sound community cannot be built on enabling delusions or lies,

And they aren’t. They are built on mutual respect, acceptance and support for others regardless of religion, culture, political view, life choices, etc. as long as no harm is done to others. Homosexuals and transgendered are causing no harm. Scamp

Sc, sound community cannot be built on enabling delusions or lies, and when such falsehoods are backed by power, they become the untruths foundational to injustice. Unless such first truths are faced, we cannot soundly proceed. Underlying your assertions seems to be a species of nominalism, whereby natural identities are denied, words are reduced by jacobin radicals to newspeak politics and those who dare object or question are subjected to subtle or blatant turnabout accusation and marginalisation. This is reality, not 1984 and 2 + 2 is not whatever the radical power brokers and their enablers wish them to be. Men -- self evidently -- are men, women are women, both stamped into our chromosomes, and the imposition of various power backed absurdities to the contrary is just that, absurd not normality. People suffering inherently disordered conditions are still people, need to be recognised as rights bearing neighbours but no right can properly be claimed that demands enabling absurd falsehood and tainting of sound conscience. There are no nine sided hexagons. KF kairosfocus

KF@21, I didn’t realize that calling a transgendered person by their selected name and pronoun, and treating them with respect, and letting them use the bathroom of their identified gender, would lead to the end of civilization. Over the years I have heard the same arguments used against inter-race marriage, desegregation, the decriminalization of homosexuality and legalization of same sex marriage. And, decades on, civilization has survived. And life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which originally only applied,in real terms, to white males, now applies to a much greater portion of the population than it ever has. The number one self-evident truth is that societies will change. You can either resist it tooth and nail or you can make attempts to understand the rationale of those trying to change it and make accommodations when they cause no harm. I choose the latter. Scamp

Sc, kindly show us a nine sided hexagon. If you cannot -- and you cannot -- you have learned important truths about how truth is accurate description of reality, how there are indeed core characteristics tied to the identity of not only individuals but natural classes, how words as tools of communication need to serve truth, how truthfulness is an inescapable moral duty, and why imposition of crooked yardsticks in the place of sound plumb line self evident truths is oppressive imposition of untruth backed by power that attacks sound conscience. That manifests misanthropy even as it pretends to be liberating and ends in evil. KF kairosfocus

Scamp “Two OPs decrying the assumed evils associated with being accepting and supportive of transgendered” Accepting or supportive, what does this even mean? Men who think they are women should be treated with respect , I accept that they think they are women, they should not be ridiculed, bullied etc. How is that not accepting? As to being supportive I don’t know what you mean? What am I suppose to support their harm to women? Am I to support them by being misogynistic? “ and you direct all of your venom towards a very small percentage of transgendered, those you compete in sports.” What venom? “The impression I get from the discussions is that most here, instead of addressing the actual issues on a case by case basis, would rather deny all transgendered people the opportunity to live their lives in a way that makes them happy and comfortable. So much for supporting the DoI” Happy and comfortable? What do you mean? Do you mean I have to embrace the lie that they are women?. Exactly what issues have to be addressed on a case by case basis? Vivid vividbleau

Two OPs decrying the assumed evils associated with being accepting and supportive of transgendered and you direct all of your venom towards a very small percentage of transgendered, those you compete in sports. The impression I get from the discussions is that most here, instead of addressing the actual issues on a case by case basis, would rather deny all transgendered people the opportunity to live their lives in a way that makes them happy and comfortable. So much for supporting the DoI. Scamp

SA “What you’re saying here is that you see transgender people as a separate category – not as what they claim to be.” Yep. If it was not so harmful to women it would be funny to see those who affirm that men who think they are women are women get pretzel twisted. Vivid vividbleau

Sev

would creating a separate division for transgender fighters be a workable and acceptable solution in that community?

Vivid responded @11 but I'll just echo it. I just nudge you to realize that your instincts are in the right direction but that comment runs afoul of wokeism. What you're saying here is that you see transgender people as a separate category - not as what they claim to be. So, you're thinking rationally, at least in part. But that alone would have you persecuted as being unjust and bigoted. No, the demand is that transgender men, and we could include the strongest and most powerful, have to be considered "women" and therefore must be permitted to fight women. Silver Asiatic

@10 yes and no. Yes it’s worth giving the idea a shot if there was a big enough demand for it, no because I think social issues from both perspectives would take unnecessary issue with it. And a lot of people keep forgetting that if you wanna be the best you need to sacrifice for it even if it means putting your social and personal lives on hold and it doesn’t mean you don’t have them, you just have to put it on hold until you’re done competing AaronS1978

"These people are insane." Vivid, And worse, the politically aligned who put them in power are astonishingly stupid. Andrew asauber

In every sport, boys and men have a distinct advantage over girls and women. Compare anything between the two, as plenty of studies have been doing, and you will see males are faster, stronger and have more endurance than women. the muscle structure, bone density and internal organs are different, which have nothing to do with hormone shots. Females have compacted internal organs, since they give birth. Males have larger rib cages and greater lung capacity, which is the reason for the advantage with endurance. There are numerous biological differences between males and females. To deny the differences is to deny biology. BobRyan

Asauber And now we are going to have a SC Justice who will be responsible for adjudicating women's sex discrimination cases who doesn’t know what a woman is!! These people are insane. Vivid vividbleau

"to not allow women to compete against other women" This takes discrimination to new unheard of levels... to treat someone as inferior *because* they are the same as everyone just like them. Mind blown. lol Andrew asauber

“I have no issue with any of what you wrote. My question to you, based on your experience in martial arts is, would creating a separate division for transgender fighters be a workable and acceptable solution in that community?” But they are women! That would be discrimination to not allow women to compete against other women. Vivid vividbleau

AaronS1978/6 I have no issue with any of what you wrote. My question to you, based on your experience in martial arts is, would creating a separate division for transgender fighters be a workable and acceptable solution in that community? Seversky

Givin evolution is a "fact". Should we not allow time for women to evolve into men over time? Millions of years of random punches in the face should help it along. Correct Darwinist? DATCG

Of related note: Gov. Desantis displays some gubernatorial boldness, (and sanity), and declares an actual woman the winner of a women's competition.

Gov. DeSantis declares Sarasota swimmer winner over transgender athlete - Mar 22, 2022 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLr_W1DLduM

bornagain77

Sev, "In the Wikipedia entry on Fallon Fox, some of her opponents reported that she was noticeably stronger and hit harder than other women they had fought." That's because he is a man. Barry Arrington

I used to participate martial arts quite a bit, things to know Due to size, strength, and leverage, It takes an average male 3 to 4 strikes at full strength to break a cheekbone While it takes a woman on average 18 full strikes Of course this is an average and many other factors also play a role like bone density and muscle density Male bone density continues to be greater than a woman’s even with hormonal treatments Which plays a huge part in whether or not you can actually hurt the person you’re fighting or how badly they get hurt Even with hormonal treatments your germ line genetics are still male which means you still have access to male biological equipment, that will start working once you start agitating them. Extreme physical activity will always excite these factors and cause them to activate whether you are transgender or not I have absolutely zero problem with transgender I have 100% problem with people that believe that your biological attributes disappear because you think Males and females are biologically different this is a fact that is being ignored for feelings AaronS1978

Denyse

Once the story became “there is no essential difference,” all this followed.

It's a hatred of women. Reducing the distinction of being female to nail polish and lipstick. Yes, it is a bestial trend, but consistent. It's bad karma for feminists and for everyone who got rid of moral standards. "No, no, we would never support ... [whatever]" Then [whatever] becomes popular and they change. J.K. Rowling is learning from bitter experience. Silver Asiatic

The women who participate in mixed martial arts matches appear to enjoy it as a sport as much as their male counterparts and, if that's the case, then it should be their choice. In the Wikipedia entry on Fallon Fox, some of her opponents reported that she was noticeably stronger and hit harder than other women they had fought. It seems like the the transition procedures do nothing to mitigate the physical advantages of the male physique over the female. Again, this is where a good case can be made for having separate divisions for male, female and transgender fighters. Seversky

Francis Ngannou should identify as a female of the same weight class as Fallon Fox , as if gender is fluid why not weight. It would be an eye opener for Mr Fox to see the irony as he gets his head beaten to a pulp by someone who has chose to identify as they see fit with no relation to reality. Marfin

Asauber at 1, a complexity is that this is karma for feminism (not as it started out but as it became). It started out with a movement for the dignity and equality of women as women. Once the story became "there is no essential difference," all this followed. The beast is hard to confront because those who would confront it are in its camp, hopelessly compromised, and hoping to be eaten last. We can only hope that the swim moms who drive their daughters to practice years on end have even half the intelligence of Edith Bunker. Then they will begin to realize who their and their daughters' friends and enemies really are. Not who they were taught to think, as it happens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoIMvOUM3po News

And who are these women who agree to get their faces punched in by a man pretending to be a woman? Andrew asauber