Quote of the Day

_{Barry Arrington

March 24, 2022

Intelligent Design}

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The quote of the day comes from commenter AaronS1978. In a comment to my last post, Aaron brings to our attention MMA fighter Fallon Fox, a man posing as a woman and fighting in the woman’s division. He has smashed the faces of multiple woman. Aaron writes that in our brave new world:

beating the crap out of a woman is OK as long as you think you’re a woman

Where are the feminists?

Comments

JVL “. If we waited until they were a legal adult and let them select whether to be male or female would you have a problem with that?” No Vividvividbleau_{March 29, 2022
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KF: Seems to me the Durian Fruit principle arises: we may be led to or inclined to reject the good because it may have off-putting aspects.
I suggest that you take this approach with respect to transgendered. Although you think that the idea is off-putting, being accepting and supportive of transgendered is a good thing.Scamp_{March 29, 2022
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KF: 1. Why do we have women’s sports at all? Why not just have sports, and anyone who wants to compete is welcome?
I have already stated that I don’t believe transgendered should be allowed to compete in women’s sports. So I don’t think your questions should be addressed to me.
Supplemental hormonal therapy is not allowed in competitive sports.
There are medical exemptions for taking prohibited substances. I’m not sure if supplemental hormone therapy applies. I imagine that a woman who has had a hysterectomy or a man who has had his testicles removed could get an exemption for hormone therapy.Scamp_{March 29, 2022
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Kairosfocus: I already noted that medical (and related) challenges should be treated as such, And how would that be done in the case of intersex individuals? Let's say a baby was born with both a penis and a vagina, what would you do? (And yes, such cases are known.). It's easy enough to find stories of people whose 'sex' was chosen for them by parents and surgeons. Some of them later resented the assignment chosen. If we waited until they were a legal adult and let them select whether to be male or female would you have a problem with that? You think that my bringing up things is just bowing to some current fad or trying to undercut some of the structures you see as essential for sound government and civilisation. But I am talking about some real conditions suffered by real people and, my contention is, I think they way you chose to deal with such medical conditions says something about the way you chose to deal with other gender issues. The fact that you cannot address these real medical issues, just like you have problems understanding trans issues, seems to give support to my contention.JVL_{March 29, 2022
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So, rational answers to those questions I posed make this all very clear and easy. Sports are segregated by biological sex (XY vs XX chromosome) and not social gender (accepting "gender" as a social designation arguendo here.) Supplemental hormonal therapy is not allowed in competitive sports. Both of these things are designed to keep the competition between individuals as fair as possible. Whether or not you self-identify as a woman, and whether or not you have surgery and/or hormonal treatment is entirely irrelevant because the categories in sports are not based on gender, they are based on sex, which is determined by the presence of the XX or XY chromosome in your DNA, and hormonal therapy for the purpose of competitive advantage is not allowed. To be clear, using hormone therapy as a means to move into a category of sports where you will have a competitive advantage because of your XY biology is using hormone therapy to gain competitive advantage.William J Murray_{March 29, 2022
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My questions to Scamp and Seversky: 1. Why do we have women's sports at all? Why not just have sports, and anyone who wants to compete is welcome? 2. Are sports separated by sex (biology,) or by gender (social classification?) 3. If sports are separated by gender, then what does it matter if someone is transitioning or has transitioned via surgery and hormonal therapy? Isn't just self-identifying as one gender or the other enough? 4. Why not just allow men to compete in women's sports regardless of how they self-identify, and regardless of whether or not they are trans? Why would "considering yourself a woman" in your own mind be a substantive value worth considering? 5. In most sports at both the professional and official amateur level, use of steroids (various forms of testosterone) are prohibited to prevent anyone from having an unfair advantage. How is the use of hormonal therapy, such as using forms of estrogen, any different? Why is it allowed? Why don't these organizations allow men to become "more male" by using additional testosterone/steroids? 6. Why shouldn't women be allowed to take steroids/testosterone to be able to better compete? 7. If not biology, then what or who decides which sports category (men's or women's) any individual can compete on, and if hormonal therapy is allowed in sports in any individual instance because that person wants to use it for the better realization of their personal idea of their own gender, how is it fair that anyone is denied the use of any such hormonal therapy in sports?William J Murray_{March 29, 2022
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Seems to me the Durian Fruit principle arises: we may be led to or inclined to reject the good because it may have off-putting aspects.kairosfocus_{March 29, 2022
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PS, it so happens that I know a woman from a family where breasts are non functional. That is an example of a medical challenge and it is treated as such.kairosfocus_{March 29, 2022
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Vividbleau: I can say this intersex individuals are actually intersex individuals and biological men who think they are women are not actually women. That is the topic at hand and your query is nothing but a distraction. They are two totally different situations but as I said previously I will answer your query to KF later. Thank you in advance. I wouldn't have addressed anything to you if you had not written a message to me. So, I assumed, you wanted to be part of the conversation. My point is that the way we treat transgender individuals and hermaphrodites and the other biologically intersex individuals should be considered part of a general scheme or strategy or approach. A hermaphrodite will have to pick the mens' room or the womens' room at a restaurant or public venue. They will have to 'self identify' as one or the other even though they are neither, biologically. So, is there that much different for those suffering from gender dysphoria or some such for the rest of us? Physical and sexual abuse are abuse, no question, regardless of the perpetrator and their identity. We have laws protecting the innocent. No one is talking about relaxing those. Dealing with sports is a tricky situation and I have even heard some 'materialists' say that trans-women should not be allow to compete in womens' events. There is no easy or clear answer and each case is different. All I can say is that the sporting organisations should have a large and wide-ranging conversation with the athletes and the advocacy groups. I'm not smart enough or insightful enough to have a solution AND it's not up to me anyway. I think the people who are most affected should have the most say and that's the athletes. There is the unfortunate lack of symmetry as well: most biologically male athletes would not object to a trans-man competing in their sport. Just some of my thoughts.JVL_{March 29, 2022
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JVL, it is obvious -- and, frankly, self evident -- that propagation of our race rests on the two complementary sexes, linked stable family structures etc being important for thriving of individuals and communities. It is jacobin misanthropy that exploits rare medical challenges and fairly rare psycho-social disorders to try to obfuscate the facts of maleness and femaleness in our species; where, unlike Groupers, we don't go through sex changes because our sexes are based on XX and XY chromosomes. We are mammals, as functional mammary glands in the female body demonstrate, with an echo in the male chest. The projection that it is in effect bigotry to recognise such facts is ugly slander against reality and those who decline to become habitual liars as the latest radical agendas and fads demand. What is neighbour loving and just is to recognise that no one can have a right to demand enabling of falsehoods and evils more generally, i.e. sound conscience is sacrosanct and rights claims -- which are moral claims -- can only be justified when the claimant is manifestly in the right. All people have rights but rights must be part of the due balance of rights, freedoms, duties that constitutes the civil peace of justice. What is being done is in fact precisely the sort of breach as Havel pointed out. I already noted that medical (and related) challenges should be treated as such, without undermining the core fact that we come in two complementary sexes generally marked by XX and XY chromosomes. Which, was the generally recognised position until the latest demands of radicalism have been pushed with obvious intent to make the absurd and perverse denial of the fact of our two sexes the new norm of untruth backed by power and attacking sound conscience. Which is anticivilisational and misanthropic. But then, turnabout projection has been a long noted tactic of the jacobins. In retort, we can freely infer confession by projection, i.e. anticivilisational and misanthropic intent have been implicitly acknowledged. Beyond that I duly note your personalising-polarising gambits and reject them out of hand. The substance remains, there are no nine sided hexagons. KFkairosfocus_{March 29, 2022
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JVL I can say this intersex individuals are actually intersex individuals and biological men who think they are women are not actually women. That is the topic at hand and your query is nothing but a distraction. They are two totally different situations but as I said previously I will answer your query to KF later. Vividvividbleau_{March 29, 2022
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JVL I can say this intersex individuals are actually intersex individual and biological men who think they are women are not women. That is the topic at hand and your query is nothing but a distraction. They are two totally different situations but as I said previously I will answer your query to KF later. Vividvividbleau_{March 29, 2022
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JVL “When you address my query I shall be glad to address yours.” You never asked me a question however I will take the high road and address your query to KF when I have some time. Vividvividbleau_{March 29, 2022
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Vividbleau: And this brings me back to one of MANY questions that no one yet apparently will answer so I will ask you. What is a woman? How does your worldview think intersex individuals should be treated? Which bathrooms should they be allowed to use? Which sports categories should they be allowed to participate in? When you address my query I shall be glad to address yours.JVL_{March 29, 2022
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Asauber: You are concerned about how people should be treated. Well, I’m trying to find out if you are serious or just trolling. You are performing one of your classic dodge and deflect moves: when asked a question you don't have an answer for or you figure your opinion will be vilified or made fun of you insist your 'opponent' answer your question first, knowing you will disagree with it and thereby be able to refuse to answer their question because your opponent's view is 'not serious' or not acceptable by your standards. You do this all the time. In this particular case, once you realised your simplistic view does not accommodate all the actually, real data, you figured you could avoid looking foolish by trying to make someone else look foolish. I'm not playing that game. I asked a question. I expect, out of courtesy at least, that you reply to that after which I shall be glad to answer your question.JVL_{March 29, 2022
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Sc, sex is decisively biologically driven in our species -- we are not Grouper fish -- based on XX vs XY chromosomes. There are rare medical conditions that should be recognised as that, not ideologically abused to obfuscate the self-evident facts of the two sexes and their critical importance to the future of our race. But then, the base problem is that there is an agenda of untruth seeking to intimidate people into being habitual liars. The refusal to recognise what that implies, is telling, sadly so. So, again, show us a nine sided hexagon. KF PS: Let us hear Havel in the epochal essay that helped change the world:
The manager of a fruit-and-vegetable shop places in his window, among the onions and carrots, the slogan: "Workers of the world, unite!" Why does he do it? What is he trying to communicate to the world? Is he genuinely enthusiastic about the idea of unity among the workers of the world? Is his enthusiasm so great that he feels an irrepressible impulse to acquaint the public with his ideals? Has he really given more than a moment's thought to how such a unification might occur and what it would mean? I think it can safely be assumed that the overwhelming majority of shopkeepers never think about the slogans they put in their windows, nor do they use them to express their real opinions. That poster was delivered to our greengrocer from the enterprise headquarters along with the onions and carrots. He put them all into the window simply because it has been done that way for years, because everyone does it, and because that is the way it has to be. If he were to refuse, there could be trouble. He could be reproached for not having the proper decoration in his window; someone might even accuse him of disloyalty. He does it because these things must be done if one is to get along in life. It is one of the thousands of details that guarantee him a relatively tranquil life "in harmony with society," as they say. Obviously the greengrocer is indifferent to the semantic content of the slogan on exhibit; he does not put the slogan in his window from any personal desire to acquaint the public with the ideal it expresses. This, of course, does not mean that his action has no motive or significance at all, or that the slogan communicates nothing to anyone. The slogan is really a sign, and as such it contains a subliminal but very definite message. Verbally, it might be expressed this way: "I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests? Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient;' he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth. The greengrocer would be embarrassed and ashamed to put such an unequivocal statement of his own degradation in the shop window, and quite naturally so, for he is a human being and thus has a sense of his own dignity. To overcome this complication, his expression of loyalty must take the form of a sign which, at least on its textual surface, indicates a level of disinterested conviction. It must allow the greengrocer to say, "What's wrong with the workers of the world uniting?" Thus the sign helps the greengrocer to conceal from himself the low foundations of his obedience, at the same time concealing the low foundations of power.
A lesson.kairosfocus_{March 28, 2022
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F/N: Am Spec: https://spectator.org/kbj-hearings-typify-our-debased-political-discourse/ >>after [Judge] Jackson’s unnecessarily evasive answer to the inevitable “woman question” posed by Sen. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.), USA Today’s Alia E. Dastagir came to the rescue using a term that has been much abused of late: “Marsha Blackburn asked Ketanji Brown Jackson to define ‘woman.’ Science says there’s no simple answer.” Science™ was also invoked by Salon’s Matthew Rozca: “Republicans get the science behind sexual difference wrong during Supreme Court nominee hearing.”>> KFkairosfocus_{March 28, 2022
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Vivid: Hermaphrodites are, drum roll ,not denying reality!! Hermaphrodites are, drum roll, hermaphrodites !
And yet it was common practice, and may still be, to conduct surgery on hermaphrodite babies and raise them as male or female, not as a hermaphrodite. Without the informed consent of the individual, and sometimes without the consent of the parents.Scamp_{March 28, 2022
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KF: Sev, Sc, predictable and predictably in error. We are dealing with human beings, and we know the pattern, with the issue that there are medical problems some have. We do not decide a matter so key to the thriving of civilisation and the race on relatively rare medical challenges that need to be treated as such. KF
You are dodging the issue that you and most others here agree that all observed traits arise not as a deterministic result of the DNA and genes. That great variation is often due to many other factors. But you ignore the fact that the same might apply to gender. What we do know is that the brain structure and activity of transgendered more closely resembles that of the gender they identify as than they do of their biological sex. They may be living a delusion or they may really share more in common with women than men. After all, we are all far more than just our genitalia. But you, for some reason, are obsessed with genitalia. As I have mentioned before, you are free to treat them in whatever way you see fit. As long as you are not causing harm. I choose to do what an ever increasing majority of the population has decided to do and accept them and support them in their personal pursuit of happiness.Scamp_{March 28, 2022
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JVL “there are literally millions of human beings on the planet that do not fit well into traditional male or female categories” The world’s population is approximately 8 billion, percentage estimates for birth rates ( approximately 140 million per year) for hermaphrodites are 1.7%. Hermaphrodites are, drum roll ,not denying reality!! Hermaphrodites are, drum roll, hermaphrodites ! Non hermaphrodite men who think they are women are denying reality. Not in the sense that they don’t actually think they are women rather by thinking they are a woman that makes them a woman. And this brings me back to one of MANY questions that no one yet apparently will answer so I will ask you. What is a woman? Vividvividbleau_{March 28, 2022
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JVL, you too. KFkairosfocus_{March 28, 2022
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JVL, You are concerned about how people should be treated. Well, I'm trying to find out if you are serious or just trolling. Andrewasauber_{March 28, 2022
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"Let me guess your attempt to catch me out:" JVL, I'm asking you a relevant question. If you are too much a coward to answer it, I won't be surprised. Andrewasauber_{March 28, 2022
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Asauber: In an ideal non-binary framework, when should any human being (God’s child) obtain rights? Let me guess your attempt to catch me out: I'm supposed to say: they should all have rights and then you're going to give some anti-abortion argument. Is that about right? Perhaps you'd like to address the actual point being argued: there are literally millions of human beings on the planet that do not fit well into traditional male or female categories. How do you propose they be treated compared to everyone else?JVL_{March 28, 2022
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"How do they fit into your black-and-white dichotomy?" So JVL, In an ideal non-binary framework, when should any human being (God's child) obtain rights? Andrewasauber_{March 28, 2022
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Sev, Sc, predictable and predictably in error. We are dealing with human beings, and we know the pattern, with the issue that there are medical problems some have. We do not decide a matter so key to the thriving of civilisation and the race on relatively rare medical challenges that need to be treated as such. KFkairosfocus_{March 28, 2022
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Kairosfocus: Rare medical conditions should not be permitted to warp that normal framework. The point is that your framework should include everyone. All of God's creatures. Looking at the frequency of some of the known and documented conditions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex) we are talking about millions of individuals. How do they fit into your black-and-white dichotomy? When you insist on slotting everyone into two different categories you are ignoring and disregarding more people across the planet with real medically documented conditions than live in France. Would you blame them if they find your stance unloving? What if one of your own children fell into one of the inter-sex categories? Would you be so insensitive then?JVL_{March 28, 2022
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"A newly fertilized embryo" ...is a person? Andrewasauber_{March 28, 2022
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"transgender people are real" So, scientifically and quantifiably, what is a transgender person? What are the test results that identify transgender? Andrewasauber_{March 28, 2022
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Seversky, very interesting clip. What I find odd is that the very people who argue that DNA is not deterministic for all other traits, insist that it is deterministic for gender, and to suggest otherwise brands you as a liar.Scamp_{March 28, 2022
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