Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Reality: The Wall You Smack Into When You’re Wrong

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I’ve been in trial the last couple of weeks, and I am just now coming up for air.  I see the debate has continued in my absence.  Alas, yet another confirmation (as if another were needed) that I am not indispensible.  Thank you to all of our posters, commenters and lurkers, who continue to make this site one of the most robust stops on the internet vis-à-vis the intelligent design debate.

 We live in a post-modern world, and the defense position at trial last week brought that dreary fact forcefully to mind. 

Without going into detail, the trial was about a contract my clients (the plaintiffs) signed in 1996.  The defendant received the benefits of his bargain and was content for 11 years.  Then, when the contract turned to my clients’ benefit in 2007, the defendant refused to pay.  Instead, he hired one of the largest law firms in the world (over 600 lawyers) to get him out of the contract, and these last several months his team of lawyers and paralegals (six strong at last count) have submitted literally hundreds of documents to the court in a feverish effort to convince the judge that – though the defendant said nothing for 11 years – the contract was unenforceable from the beginning. 

Well, that is not entirely accurate.  I should say this is the position on which the defendant finally settled after various other theories failed.  At first he claimed the contract was valid, but my clients’ calculations were wrong, and they owed him money.  When that didn’t work he claimed the entire transaction was a sham, and he knew it from the beginning.  When it came to light he had certified the transaction to the IRS in 1997, his position changed yet again.  Now, his position was that he thought the transaction was valid in the beginning, but after he reviewed the documents in connection with this case he learned he had been hoodwinked.  The transaction was always a sham, but he just hadn’t known it all these years. 

 In golf a “mulligan” is the friendly practice of letting a player get a “do over” if his tee shot goes awry.  I suppose the defendant’s lawyers thought I was going to give them a mulligan and not mention at trial the varied and inconsistent positions they had taken.  But over a million dollars was at stake, so I decided I would pass on the mulligan, and when I had the defendant on the stand the cross went something like this:

 Q.  So if I understand what you’re saying, you didn’t know there was any irregularity with the transaction when you certified it to the IRS in 1996.

 A.  That’s right.

 Q.  In fact, you’re telling me that you never knew there was the slightest problem with this transaction until you reviewed the documents produced in connection with this case.

 A.  That’s right.  I never knew.

 Q.  I have just placed in front of you the sworn affidavit you signed last September.  Do you see paragraph three there?  It says, “I believe [here I raised my voice for effect], AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED, the transaction was a sham.”  My question for you is this:  Just now you testified under oath that you NEVER believed there was anything wrong with the transaction.  But last September you swore out an affidavit in which you said you ALWAYS believed the transaction was a sham.  Help me out here.  How can both of those sworn statements be true at the same time?

 This, of course, is the trial lawyer’s dream scene.  He has caught the other party making statements that simply cannot be reconciled.  Both may be false (which is the case here), but there is no way both can be true.  Needless to say, my clients are happy today.

What does this have to do with post-modernism?  Just this.  Over the last few months I have often wondered if the other side really believed they would be able to get away with just “making it up.”  That question was answered by an incident that occurred on the second day of trial.  My paralegal was in the back of a crowded courthouse elevator.  One of the defendant’s lawyers and his paralegal were in the front, and apparently they did not know my paralegal was there, because she overheard them talking about the case.  The lawyer said, “They are presenting their version of reality and we are presenting a competing version of reality.  The case will come down to which version the judge finds compelling.” 

I never thought of myself as “presenting a version of reality.”  My goal was to just get the facts out about what happened, because I have always believed that if the judge knew what actually happened we would win.  It turns out that I am hopelessly old-fashioned about these things.  In our post-modern world there are no immutable “facts” for the judge to know.  There are only competing “narratives,” and she will make her decision based upon which narrative she finds most “compelling.”  And in developing his “narrative,” a lawyer need feel no obligation to quaint outdated notions such as “what actually happened.”  There is no “what actually happened,” because reality is not fixed, objective and immutable.  No, reality is malleable, subjective and constructed. 

I like to say that reality is the practical wall you smack into when you’re theory is wrong.  And thankfully trials are nothing if not practical endeavors.  No matter what a post-modernist might say about “all reality is subjectively constructed,” the truth of the matter is they all look both ways before crossing the street.  And it turns out that judges really do try to determine “what actually happened,” and another name for “presenting a competing version of reality” is “lying under oath,” which judges tend to frown on (as the defendant found out to his dismay).

I hope our opponents who post comments on this site will keep this story in mind.  I hope they think about it the next time they are tempted to write in response to one of the arguments an ID proponent makes, “Well, that’s your reality.  My reality is different.”  It is such a hackneyed, trite and dreary expression.  Worse, it is based on a self-evidently false premise, and, as the defendant found out, it will get you in trouble if you take it seriously.

Comments
... despite absolutely crushing evidence like this for design coming from all fields we care to examine, be it cosmology, or be it molecular biology, or be it quantum mechanics. Nothing seems to matter to evolutionists such as yourself. Why is this Sooner? you claim to be above average intelligence. so why is it that overwhelming evidence like this is continually ignored and the public is relentlessly sold this claptrap of pseudo-scientific hodgepodge called neo-Darwinian evolution?
Rings like a tv-commercial in my ears. How about some hard evidence? How can the concerted effort of thousands upon thousands of serious, top-notch, qualified and merited scientists over 150 years default to a pseudo-scientific hodgepodge? While at the same time ID still has not (yet?) emerged from it's just around the corner, '- the future' position? Let's not forget that science needs a definition allowing for astrology as a science in order to make ID workable.Cabal
May 13, 2010
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efren ts,
You are entitled to your opinion. But, as a person who’s sole interaction with the scientific world is to criticize it from behind the skirt of moderation on a blog, you would do well to ponder your own activity vs accomplishment balance sheet.
You're entitiled to your opinion, But, as a person whose sole interaction with the scientific world is to criticize those of us who pay attention to science behind the mask of efren ts on a blog, you would do well to ponder your own activity vs accomplishment balance sheet.Clive Hayden
May 13, 2010
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Sooner,
I worked for ten years to clarify a topic, and I do take it personally when “maverick geniuses” with an agenda step in and make mud of it.
You'll have to keep what you take personally to yourself, and just argue the merits. This sort of thing won't fly here: "Most senior researchers are similarly humble — they do not preserve the cruft and trumpet that it is “right up there with sliced bread.” and "I used to give him feedback, but now I’m just letting him run into the wall you smack into when you’re wrong." If you think him wrong, then show it with whatever you've got, but no personal opinions of the man will be tolerated here. Are we clear? Clive Hayden
May 13, 2010
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efren ts, Don't call Upright Biped Uppity.
There are many scientists engaged in studying abiogenesis. You know, forming hypothesis, designing and running experiments, analysing and publishing results. It may be *faster* to assert design, allude to as-yet uncalculated probabilities, and knock out a few blog comments rather than dealing with boring lab work that could take months or years, but speed and productivity are not the same thing.
ID has nothing to do with speed or being thrifty. It is a logical conclusion based on calculations and the running of experiments and formation of hypotheses you mention. And as you said, a lot can be learned by failure in the lab. Clive Hayden
May 12, 2010
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Toronto,
Our side is actually in the lab trying to scientifically determine something you claim you already know without performing any activity at all.
Who is "our side"? Do you honestly think that all of "your side" thinks the way you do and would consider themselves to be on "your side"? As if you think it justifiable to group anyone who has ever done anything on "your side".... Please... What you think is "your side" is so variant that there is no "your side".Clive Hayden
May 12, 2010
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STephenB:
activity does not equal accomplishment. The issue is less about whether Darwinists spend a lot of time in the lab and more about the fact that nothing significant ever comes of it.
When it comes to scientific experimentation, there is knowledge even in failure. That notwithstanding, even if professional scientists never completely unravel abiogenesis they are still adding to the canon of scientific knowledge. If you wish to consider that insignificant, so be it. You are entitled to your opinion. But, as a person who's sole interaction with the scientific world is to criticize it from behind the skirt of moderation on a blog, you would do well to ponder your own activity vs accomplishment balance sheet.
In keeping with that point, many government employees spend a lot of time on the computer watching porn, but that doesn’t mean that they accomplish anything.
And some folks spend large amounts of time commenting throughout the day on intelligent design blogs. Do you think their employer would be any less disturbed at the misuse of organization assets merely because it doesn't involve images of naughty bits?efren ts
May 12, 2010
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sooner, you sound like you have some pretty impressive credentials but look at this from our angle, the simplest life on earth is vastly more complex than even teams of specialized scientists can understand:,,,, First-Ever Blueprint of 'Minimal Cell' Is More Complex Than Expected - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: A network of research groups,, approached the bacterium at three different levels. One team of scientists described M. pneumoniae's transcriptome, identifying all the RNA molecules, or transcripts, produced from its DNA, under various environmental conditions. Another defined all the metabolic reactions that occurred in it, collectively known as its metabolome, under the same conditions. A third team identified every multi-protein complex the bacterium produced, thus characterising its proteome organisation. "At all three levels, we found M. pneumoniae was more complex than we expected," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091126173027.htm ,,,, "No man-made program comes close to the technical brilliance of even Mycoplasmal genetic algorithms. Mycoplasmas are the simplest known organism with the smallest known genome, to date. How was its genome and other living organisms' genomes programmed?" - David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors, “Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information,” Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, page 8 http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-2-29.pdf and yet sooner even though this simplest cell on earth has programming information in it that we can't even fully understand because of sheer complexity of it,,, we find that material processes can't even account for the origination of even the simplest of coded information,,,, The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity - David L. Abel - 2009 Excerpt: "A monstrous ravine runs through presumed objective reality. It is the great divide between physicality and formalism. On the one side of this Grand Canyon lies everything that can be explained by the chance and necessity of physicodynamics. On the other side lies those phenomena than can only be explained by formal choice contingency and decision theory—the ability to choose with intent what aspects of ontological being will be preferred, pursued, selected, rearranged, integrated, organized, preserved, and used. Physical dynamics includes spontaneous non linear phenomena, but not our formal applied-science called “non linear dynamics”(i.e. language,information). to top that off Sooner quantum mechanics shows 3-D material reality is secondary to "consciousness" reality. and we know for 100% certainty that consciousness can produce coded information. Shoot I'm doing it right now though you may rightly argue as to the quality of my information. The point being Sooner is that despite absolutely crushing evidence like this for design coming from all fields we care to examine, be it cosmology, or be it molecular biology, or be it quantum mechanics. Nothing seems to matter to evolutionists such as yourself. Why is this Sooner? you claim to be above average intelligence. so why is it that overwhelming evidence like this is continually ignored and the public is relentlessly sold this claptrap of pseudo-scientific hodgepodge called neo-Darwinian evolution?bornagain77
May 12, 2010
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Sooner, I'm happy to match you in years. But my 30 years were spent standing toe to toe with people who have every inch of your arrogance - having them back their bias out of the data. Like I said Sooner, when you are ready to loose the mask and deal with the evidence, you let me know.Upright BiPed
May 12, 2010
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StephenB,,, HA HA HAbornagain77
May 12, 2010
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Big, Bad BiPed taunts from the pleats of mama's skirt:
So yes Sooner, I do intend to keep poking you in the chest.
It will redound upon you, and evidence a double standard in blog moderation.
You showed up on UD with a full load of condescending arrogance.
In fact, I did not. You evidently have in mind a couple of cases in which I reacted angrily to claims about papers in a particular area -- an area in which, as one of the principals of the Biologic Institute has pointed out, I was almost solely responsible for making connections to information theory. The last time I spoke at a conference -- that was essentially the end of my career -- I was introduced as a pioneer of the field. People lined the walls and spilled into the hallway. A past president of the IEEE Computational Intelligence Society later remarked, as we had a beer together, that I'd surpassed him with my math skills. The difference between the first and the last of my papers in the field is indeed enormous, and I worked extremely hard to develop as I did. You often refer to me as a fool, and I will be the first to say that much of the work in my field, including my own, does seem rather silly in retrospect. Everybody missed a formulation that hugely simplifies arguments. What I can say is that I struggled honestly to learn, and that others learned from me. Most senior researchers are similarly humble -- they do not preserve the cruft and trumpet that it is "right up there with sliced bread." I worked for ten years to clarify a topic, and I do take it personally when "maverick geniuses" with an agenda step in and make mud of it. The very first sentence they published contains three or four substantive errors, depending upon how you tease them out. One of the "mavericks" -- the one who may actually be a genius, but who has never figured out that adorning a preconception with formalism is not mathematics -- has gloated that he uses feedback he gains in Internet debate to adapt his arguments. I used to give him feedback, but now I'm just letting him run into the wall you smack into when you're wrong. Now, as for my arrogance, "hyper-baffoonery," and imperviousness to "the evidence," I'll say first that the height of arrogance is to to drag into any thread, irrespective of the topic, the particular evidence you believe must be addressed. I first put on a lab coat and conducted experiments in learning 35 years ago. I've studied machine "intelligence" for 27 years, and I've lectured on the question What is intelligence? about 30 times. I thought carefully about the scenario of a group of people observing an engineer I gave above. You did not address it, but instead changed what I wrote, and sneered. That comes precious close to a concession that you're at a loss.Sooner Emeritus
May 12, 2010
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---bornagain77 StephenB ,,, I’ve been told that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. When a Darwinist applies for a senior position as a researcher, he cannot reasonably say that he has accumulated 25 years of experience in the lab. He must say that he had one year's experience 25 times.StephenB
May 12, 2010
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ets, "It may be *faster* to assert design..." I think it has become completely obvious there are facets of OOL that you simply do not comprehend. It is just as clear that you do not wish to.Upright BiPed
May 12, 2010
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StephenB ,,, I've been told that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. http://rlv.zcache.com/insanity_doing_the_same_thing_over_and_over_ag_tshirt-p235154773455606452q6v8_400.jpgbornagain77
May 12, 2010
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StephenB @150,
You are missing UB’s point: activity does not equal accomplishment.
You are missing efren ts's point. Our side is actually in the lab trying to scientifically determine something you claim you already know without performing any activity at all. Please show us step by step, how the designer put together the first life form. Since it is design work and we humans design things all the time, it should be easy for you to work backwards and tell us.Toronto
May 12, 2010
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---upright biped: "You suggest that science has had “blissful productivity” in this area. I challenge that." ---efren ts: "There are many scientists engaged in studying abiogenesis. You know, forming hypothesis, designing and running experiments, analysing and publishing results. It may be *faster* to assert design, allude to as-yet uncalculated probabilities, and knock out a few blog comments rather than dealing with boring lab work that could take months or years, but speed and productivity are not the same thing." You are missing UB's point: activity does not equal accomplishment. The issue is less about whether Darwinists spend a lot of time in the lab and more about the fact that nothing significant ever comes of it. In keeping with that point, many government employees spend a lot of time on the computer watching porn, but that doesn't mean that they accomplish anything.StephenB
May 12, 2010
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Onlookers: FYI, re ET's latest misrepresentations and putting up of unbacked evo mat promissory notes, here is the net result of the many scientists working away at OOL, as excerpted from the recent exchange between Shapiro and Orgel. (Sources are given at the linked.] Since he is unfortunately unlikely to follow the link, let me cite: __________________ >> [Shapiro:] RNA's building blocks, nucleotides contain a sugar, a phosphate and one of four nitrogen-containing bases as sub-subunits. Thus, each RNA nucleotide contains 9 or 10 carbon atoms, numerous nitrogen and oxygen atoms and the phosphate group, all connected in a precise three-dimensional pattern . . . .  [S]ome writers have presumed that all of life's building could be formed with ease in Miller-type experiments and were present in meteorites and other extraterrestrial bodies. This is not the case. A careful examination of the results of the analysis of several meteorites led the scientists who conducted the work to a different conclusion: inanimate nature has a bias toward the formation of molecules made of fewer rather than greater numbers of carbon atoms, and thus shows no partiality in favor of creating the building blocks of our kind of life . . . . To rescue the RNA-first concept from this otherwise lethal defect, its advocates have created a discipline called prebiotic synthesis. They have attempted to show that RNA and its components can be prepared in their laboratories in a sequence of carefully controlled reactions, normally carried out in water at temperatures observed on Earth . . . . Unfortunately, neither chemists nor laboratories were present on the early Earth to produce RNA . . .  [Orgel:] If complex cycles analogous to metabolic cycles could have operated on the primitive Earth, before the appearance of enzymes or other informational polymers, many of the obstacles to the construction of a plausible scenario for the origin of life would disappear . . . . It must be recognized that assessment of the feasibility of any particular proposed prebiotic cycle must depend on arguments about chemical plausibility, rather than on a decision about logical possibility . . . few would believe that any assembly of minerals on the primitive Earth is likely to have promoted these syntheses in significant yield . . . .  Why should one believe that an ensemble of minerals that are capable of catalyzing each of the many steps of [for instance] the reverse citric acid cycle was present anywhere on the primitive Earth [8], or that the cycle mysteriously organized itself topographically on a metal sulfide surface [[6]? . . .  Theories of the origin of life based on metabolic cycles cannot be justified by the inadequacy of competing theories: they must stand on their own . . . .  The prebiotic syntheses that have been investigated experimentally almost always lead to the formation of complex mixtures. Proposed polymer replication schemes are unlikely to succeed except with reasonably pure input monomers. No solution of the origin-of-life problem will be possible until the gap between the two kinds of chemistry is closed. Simplification of product mixtures through the self-organization of organic reaction sequences, whether cyclic or not, would help enormously, as would the discovery of very simple replicating polymers. However, solutions offered by supporters of geneticist or metabolist scenarios that are dependent on “if pigs could fly” hypothetical chemistry are unlikely to help. >> ___________________ No wonder science writer Robinson [2005] observed: "significant problems persist with each of the two competing models that have arisen—usually called “genes first” and “metabolism first”—and neither has emerged as a robust and obvious favorite." Basic problem? The evo mat advocates, a priori ideologically exclude the only credible, observed source of organised functional, information rich complexity: intelligence. The resulting absurdities such as appealing to the sort of natural selection that can only happen AFTER self-replicating life has formed, to explain its origin reveal that the enterprise is intellectually bankrupt. (See why SB keeps pointing out the central importance of the logic of cause?) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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Uppity Biped,
You suggest that science has had “blissful productivity” in this area. I challenge that.
There are many scientists engaged in studying abiogenesis. You know, forming hypothesis, designing and running experiments, analysing and publishing results. It may be *faster* to assert design, allude to as-yet uncalculated probabilities, and knock out a few blog comments rather than dealing with boring lab work that could take months or years, but speed and productivity are not the same thing.efren ts
May 12, 2010
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Sooner, You showed up on UD with a full load of condescending arrogance. That in itself is not all that particularly unusual. But you cloaked yourself in this false garb of a hyper-intellect. Since then you've done little to show anything but hyper-baffoonery - well-insulated from evidence. So yes Sooner, I do intend to keep poking you in the chest. When you are ready to pull off the mask and deal with the evidence, you let me know.Upright BiPed
May 12, 2010
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Effy, The question I asked deals with what has to be explained. It has to be explained because that is the way we find life today. You suggest that science has had "blissful productivity" in this area. I challenge that. Synthesizing organic parts does no more to explain the living organism than a bucket of transistors explains the program running on your computer. That you fail to see that is hardly my problem. Perhaps you should spend some time with the primary data.Upright BiPed
May 12, 2010
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PPS: Onlookers, observe carefully how, for about a week, NONE of the evo mat advocates have taken time to explain to us how the sort of digital mechanisms in the videos like the one repeatedly linked above originated by chance and mechanical necessity. Indeed, in this and other threads, apart from an attempt to assert that the processes on display are analogue not digital and that hey therefore do not process information [so, T, what does a logging amplifier or an integrator do, or what happens when we patch up a set of integrators, pots, diode function generators, etc to set up and run a solution to a differential equation?] they have consistently ignored the videos of what happens in the cell. That,too, is telling.kairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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PS: And so, we come back full circle to the information generation challenge that evo mat advocates even more consitently duck: 1: Since NS cannot be the engine of actual variation, and 2: since purposefully directed contingency -- design -- is ruled out as the engine of variability at first life and at origin of body plans thereafter, then: 3: Chance -- statistical, undirected contingency -- remains as the only engine of variability that evo mat theorists can appeal to. Thus, 4: They have to account for how functionally specific, algorithmic, complex digital information originated by chance in the prelife world, and led to the sort of step by step code based translation and synthesis systems we observe in even the simplest unicellular life forms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxobgkPEAo&feature=related 5: Similarly, they have to account for how a first life form, credibly involving 100 k bits or more of bio-functional information in its DNA or RNA etc, then proceeded to BY CHANCE VARIATION generate 10+ million bits of further functional information dozens of times over to generate body plans. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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Onlookers: This -- sadly -- is now plainly getting to be yet another "foolish" and distractive argument in the Pauline sense. At least, it is an opportunity to expose the rhetorical tactics so often resorted to by evolutionary materialists to make their version of [on] "reality" seem plausible to the naive. In that sense, it is relevant tot he original post, and so I will take time to highlight the fallacies surrounding the concept of natural selection as used by evolutionary materialist advocates, step by step. (Where natural selection is valid, it is so in the sense Blythe pointed out long before Darwin: largely conservative, eliminating unfit mutants. For instance, most fancy goldfish would not survive in the wild; they are maintained by ARTIFICIAL selection.) It is by now quite sadly plain that the evolutionary materialist advocates have no serious intent to address key holes in their theories. No surprise, for, as Johnson pointed out, they hold those theories on a priori materialism, which makes darwinian style evolution seem true by logical necessity. MF is highly educated and intelligent, and has been a long time advocate for evolutionary materialism here and elsewhere. He knows or should know: 1 --> The von Neumann replicator of 1949 plays a significant role in my comments above in this thread.
(But of course he makes the excuse that he has no time to read what I say and/or finds it hard to understand. If so, he should kindly refrain from joining in quote mining and denigratory strawman attacks.)
2 --> He knows full well that natural selection is about how varied sub-populations are held to have differential rates of reproduction, so that there will be "survival of the fittest." 3 --> He knows full well that in the pre-life situation, there being no self replicating mechanism, differential reproductive success of sub populations is not applicable. Which is precisely what I said above, his pretences not to understand what I wrote notwithstanding. 4 --> That is why I pointed out that it is an outright self-contradiction to propose such NS as a means for generating bio-information in the pre-life setting. 5 --> Thus, there is no credible materialistic account of origin of life, as the sad state of OOL studies amply underscores. 6 --> This was of course the actual context of the remarks I made which ET snipped out of their context [cf. 100 above] and carried here in an attempt to derail the thread by presenting a denigratory strawman. 7 --> In 70 - 71 above, I took up the point that, even where reproduction is present, NS is a CULLER of existing functional forms [by competition of sub populations], i.e it is still not the source of functional bio- information. 8 --> In fact, when WH made the blunder of naively blurting out the full absurd evo mat position, as I noted on in 132 above, this is how he summed up the role of NS, over in the ID uncensored thread:
We’ve been telling you where the information found in living things comes from for years – mutations create the information and natural selection sieves out the useless information and keeps what works.
9 --> Got that?
a] ">mutations create the information," and b] "natural selection sieves out the [relatively or absolutely] useless information and keeps what works [best]" [clarifying parentheses added]
10 --> In short, we clearly see the inadvertently revealing acknowledgement that mutations -- chance driven, non purposeful change of one form or another -- are the source of information, and natural selection is only a culling filter. 11 --> Nor is this exactly news. As my remarks on Natural Selection in my always linked (cited above at 100) excerpt from Wiki:
individuals with favorable phenotypes are more likely to survive and reproduce than those with less favorable phenotypes. The phenotype’s genetic basis . . . will increase in frequency over the following generations.
11 --> And of course MF artfully ducked explaining how body-plan level mutations that have to occur early in embryological development and -- to produce a successful function -- have to be coordinated with other required changes, are going to occur. 12 --> That is, we have strong reason to see that body plans occur in islands of function that lie well beyond the FSCI threshold of information that would have to come from co-ordinated chance changes that get astonishingly lucky. 13 --> Worse, we know that even after 150 years of diligent searching [with over a 1/4 million species and millions of specimens including many soft bodied ones], Darwin's tree of life with smoothly grading changed populations has not found empirical support. 14 --> In short natural selection is NOT a credible engine of creating bio- functional information, whether for first life or for novel body plans. 15 --> Where it does work, it is largely conservative -- weeding out defective mutations; or, allowing specialisation from exisitng gene mixes, to fit niches; or, preserving single point mutations that happen to work well relatively speaking (e.g. for bacteria subjected to antibiotics etc). ______________ So, we see again how the real root of the apparent plausibility of darwinian mechanisms of macroevolution, is PHILOSOPHICAL. That is, the a priori imposition of evolutionary materialism. For this leads those who accept it -- usually in the guise of so-called methodological naturalism -- to inferthat some form of chance variation and natural selection and linked mechanisms MUST be responsible for life forms across time. But, evolutionary materialism is itself inescapably self-refuting and by logical necessity, false. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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#137 KF Sorry that my interest makes you sad. As you say the data for UD readership is a bit tenuous. There is a world of difference between an unique IP address getting a hit somewhere on UD and someone actually reading something, much less a specific item. My guess is that if you or I write a comment then no more than 500 people read it. I am sorry but I really don't have time to read your comments in enough detail to do them justice. It is not just the length of your comments. For example, your comment #139 the second paragraph is: 1] How (given the requisites of a von Neumann replicator) natural selection by differential reproductive success applies to the pre-life situation studied as origin of life I may be dim - but to me this is a meaningless sentence. It would take me a least 30 minutes to understand what you were getting at and then I might well misinterpret it. And that's only one paragraph!Mark Frank
May 12, 2010
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Onlookers: Observe, carefully: while we see much dismissal and denigration, we find little addressing ofteh issues on the merits, from the evolutionary materialist advocates. Let us see if that will change with the -- again repeated -- explicit challenge to summarise the plausible, empirically well warranted mechanisms of chance + necessity that get us to first life and thence to major body plans and associated integrated systems of specialised organs. In this context, let us refresh our memories with Philip Johnson's reply to Lewontin's notorious 1997 NYRB article:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose."  . . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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Oops, video on digital storage and processing of information in the cell, from transcription to protein synthesis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxobgkPEAo&feature=relatedkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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MF: Secondly, since you are now at least dipping into comments I have made [you previously and repeatedly said you do not read what I write . . . ] could you kindly square the circle of explaining to us:
1] How (given the requisites of a von Neumann replicator) natural selection by differential reproductive success applies to the pre-life situation studied as origin of life 2] How, similarly, novel body plans achieve NS on differential reproductive success, given that integrated irreducibly complex mechanisms are beyond the plausible reach of darwinian evolution.
a --> On the first, I have forgotten who it is warned that such natural selection on differential reproduction before reproduction exists is an outright contradiction in terms. b --> On the second, I again excerpt from Meyer's 2004 paper, as noted in 70 - 71 above, point 18:
In order to explain the origin of the Cambrian animals, one must account not only for new proteins and cell types, but also for the origin of new body plans . . . Mutations in genes that are expressed late in the development of an organism will not affect the body plan. Mutations expressed early in development, however, could conceivably produce significant morphological change (Arthur 1997:21) . . . [but] processes of development are tightly integrated spatially and temporally such that changes early in development will require a host of other coordinated changes in separate but functionally interrelated developmental processes downstream. For this reason, mutations will be much more likely to be deadly if they disrupt a functionally deeply-embedded structure such as a spinal column than if they affect more isolated anatomical features such as fingers (Kauffman 1995:200) . . .
c --> In short, the evolutionary materialist must provide a plausible chance + necessity mechanism that credibly gets chemicals in a still warm pond to the first fully functional life form that is empirically warranted, including codes, data structures, algorithms, programs and implementing machines, as this video illustrates: d --> Thereafter, you need to justify getting to islands of function with dozens to hundreds of significantly diverse and tightly integrated body plans and associated specialist organs; reckoning seriously the potential for disruption of embryologically early mutations. e --> All, with the point in mind that it is not credible that as little as 1,000 bits of functionally specific, complex information would ever be generated by chance processes required to drive unintelligent variation. f --> Alternate realities where chemocals magially defy thermodynamics and spontanously assemble replicators that invent codes that write proteins and then set up cells, or where coordinated mutations that give rise to hopeful monsters need not apply. g --> And if you wish to argue for the continuity of the tree of life from roots to tips of branches in a continent of function, you will have to justify it, including with relevant fossils in sufficient numbers to make continuity reasonable. _____________ Otherwise, you are just spinning ideological stories to fit a priori metaphysical commitments to materialism, as Lewontin admitted. G'day. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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Toronto: Don't be ridiculous. I have simply given fair warning to ET on the publicly available UD comment policy [top, right, every UD page], in light of his pattern of behaviour. Quote mining, strawmannising and false accusation are not civil behaviours. Or, if you want me to cite the judicious Richard Hooker, in the place from Ecclesiastical Polity where Locke cited in ch 2.5 of his 2nd Essay on civil Govt, when he set about grounding liberty and principles of democratic polity:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant.
What I have now done is to "send ET to Coventry," in light of his persistently manipulative and rhetorically abusive, irresponsible behaviour in the teeth of correction. Or, in case you do not understand the two-tier allusion [first level, British; second level NT], here is St Paul's counsel:
Titus 3: 9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him . . .
Of course, one still has the duty of prayer for those failing the test of life, that they wake up before it is too late. Not to mention, that of counselling others on how to avoid the traps set by such people. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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Mr Frank: I find it a little sad that your interest, given the issues above, is so tangential and trivial. I will answer as follows: 1 --> Some time back [1+ yrs IIRC], the Blog owner if I recall, observed that readership was in the 9,000/diem ballpark. 2 --> In one of the threads I monitored recently a generally informed commenter observed that the numbers currently are 10 - 15 k. 3 --> Given the baseline,general web trends and the typical pattern of surges of interest, those numbers are credible for one of the leading design theory blogs worldwide. (And you can see how often UD threads will pop up fairly high in Google searches.) 4 --> So, I am not speaking irresponsibly or without basis. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2010
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KF On reading Toronto's comment #133 I see another mention of 10-15 thousand onlookers. Where did you get this figure from? It seems most unlikely. MarkMark Frank
May 11, 2010
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Apollos: If there are laws of the universe that progr5am in the emergence of C-chemistry, cell based life and its onward development into complex body plans, we might as well give up and call these "laws" what they would be. Programs. The ultimate form of fine tuning. And already we have reason to be suspicious on how our cosmos is finely balanced to set up life-friendly galaxies and solar systems, with the most common elements being the elements that just happen to make the foundational molecules of life: H, O, C etc. If I were an evo mat advocate, I would be rooting for chance, not law. And we can see just how poor an explanation chance is. Design is looking stronger and stronger. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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