Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Reality: The Wall You Smack Into When You’re Wrong

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I’ve been in trial the last couple of weeks, and I am just now coming up for air.  I see the debate has continued in my absence.  Alas, yet another confirmation (as if another were needed) that I am not indispensible.  Thank you to all of our posters, commenters and lurkers, who continue to make this site one of the most robust stops on the internet vis-à-vis the intelligent design debate.

 We live in a post-modern world, and the defense position at trial last week brought that dreary fact forcefully to mind. 

Without going into detail, the trial was about a contract my clients (the plaintiffs) signed in 1996.  The defendant received the benefits of his bargain and was content for 11 years.  Then, when the contract turned to my clients’ benefit in 2007, the defendant refused to pay.  Instead, he hired one of the largest law firms in the world (over 600 lawyers) to get him out of the contract, and these last several months his team of lawyers and paralegals (six strong at last count) have submitted literally hundreds of documents to the court in a feverish effort to convince the judge that – though the defendant said nothing for 11 years – the contract was unenforceable from the beginning. 

Well, that is not entirely accurate.  I should say this is the position on which the defendant finally settled after various other theories failed.  At first he claimed the contract was valid, but my clients’ calculations were wrong, and they owed him money.  When that didn’t work he claimed the entire transaction was a sham, and he knew it from the beginning.  When it came to light he had certified the transaction to the IRS in 1997, his position changed yet again.  Now, his position was that he thought the transaction was valid in the beginning, but after he reviewed the documents in connection with this case he learned he had been hoodwinked.  The transaction was always a sham, but he just hadn’t known it all these years. 

 In golf a “mulligan” is the friendly practice of letting a player get a “do over” if his tee shot goes awry.  I suppose the defendant’s lawyers thought I was going to give them a mulligan and not mention at trial the varied and inconsistent positions they had taken.  But over a million dollars was at stake, so I decided I would pass on the mulligan, and when I had the defendant on the stand the cross went something like this:

 Q.  So if I understand what you’re saying, you didn’t know there was any irregularity with the transaction when you certified it to the IRS in 1996.

 A.  That’s right.

 Q.  In fact, you’re telling me that you never knew there was the slightest problem with this transaction until you reviewed the documents produced in connection with this case.

 A.  That’s right.  I never knew.

 Q.  I have just placed in front of you the sworn affidavit you signed last September.  Do you see paragraph three there?  It says, “I believe [here I raised my voice for effect], AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED, the transaction was a sham.”  My question for you is this:  Just now you testified under oath that you NEVER believed there was anything wrong with the transaction.  But last September you swore out an affidavit in which you said you ALWAYS believed the transaction was a sham.  Help me out here.  How can both of those sworn statements be true at the same time?

 This, of course, is the trial lawyer’s dream scene.  He has caught the other party making statements that simply cannot be reconciled.  Both may be false (which is the case here), but there is no way both can be true.  Needless to say, my clients are happy today.

What does this have to do with post-modernism?  Just this.  Over the last few months I have often wondered if the other side really believed they would be able to get away with just “making it up.”  That question was answered by an incident that occurred on the second day of trial.  My paralegal was in the back of a crowded courthouse elevator.  One of the defendant’s lawyers and his paralegal were in the front, and apparently they did not know my paralegal was there, because she overheard them talking about the case.  The lawyer said, “They are presenting their version of reality and we are presenting a competing version of reality.  The case will come down to which version the judge finds compelling.” 

I never thought of myself as “presenting a version of reality.”  My goal was to just get the facts out about what happened, because I have always believed that if the judge knew what actually happened we would win.  It turns out that I am hopelessly old-fashioned about these things.  In our post-modern world there are no immutable “facts” for the judge to know.  There are only competing “narratives,” and she will make her decision based upon which narrative she finds most “compelling.”  And in developing his “narrative,” a lawyer need feel no obligation to quaint outdated notions such as “what actually happened.”  There is no “what actually happened,” because reality is not fixed, objective and immutable.  No, reality is malleable, subjective and constructed. 

I like to say that reality is the practical wall you smack into when you’re theory is wrong.  And thankfully trials are nothing if not practical endeavors.  No matter what a post-modernist might say about “all reality is subjectively constructed,” the truth of the matter is they all look both ways before crossing the street.  And it turns out that judges really do try to determine “what actually happened,” and another name for “presenting a competing version of reality” is “lying under oath,” which judges tend to frown on (as the defendant found out to his dismay).

I hope our opponents who post comments on this site will keep this story in mind.  I hope they think about it the next time they are tempted to write in response to one of the arguments an ID proponent makes, “Well, that’s your reality.  My reality is different.”  It is such a hackneyed, trite and dreary expression.  Worse, it is based on a self-evidently false premise, and, as the defendant found out, it will get you in trouble if you take it seriously.

Comments
KF, thanks for your post #130. 1) Invoking Darwinian mechanisms prior to the first self-contained, self-replicating organism is circular reasoning -- invoking as an explanation the thing to be explained. 2) Pure chance is wholly inadequate as an explanation for the first self-replicator. This leaves natural law, which thankfully is universal, uniform and observable. We need to see the discovery of the law of spontaneous generation of functionally specified complex information, or a cascade of laws which account for it.Apollos
May 11, 2010
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kairosfocus @131,
PS: ET knows that if he steps sufficiently over the line into incivility, CH or whoever will be more than justified to put him on moderation and even to exclude him altogether.
Why are you trying to get efren ts banned? Disagreeing with you should not be grounds for banning. Why would you even want him banned? If he is so obviously wrong, he's the perfect person for you to make an example of. People will think you got him banned because he got the better of you. I believe that looking at it as objectively as possible, his arguments have been clearer and more to the point. All of the onlookers, 10-15 thousand according to you, are going to evaluate the performance of both of you and I believe he will get the majority of positive votes. A perceived loss on one of your own sites is not something the ID movement needs if you want to be taken seriously in public and in schools.Toronto
May 11, 2010
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ET: One last time, before I sent you to Coventry: You have clearly refused to read and heed 100, and 70 - 71. I originally spoke to how generating FSCI by random noise would be a refuting test of ID as a theory, in the context of challenges to testability, with origin of life as the extension of that to the bio-world. OOL of course is before differential reproductive success is a possible culling mechanism. As WH found out this morning by trying to inject NS into the pre life chemicals in a small pond etc situation. The same blunder that you imply by trying to take something that in the first and explicit instance speaks to the origin of life situation, and comnplaining that I have left out natural selection. Let's excerpt, so the blunder of imagining that NS explains origin of info or helps do so will be plain for all to see: ___________________ ID Uncensored thread no 78, point 4: >>4] WH, 71: The fact that you believe that only intelligence can create information is one of the reasons I believe you don’t half understand what information even is. We’ve been telling you where the information found in living things comes from for years – mutations create the information and natural selection sieves out the useless information and keeps what works. Now, of course, this begs the question bigtime. It thus inadvertently exposes the circularity and incoherence of the a priori evolutionary materialist story on origin of life and of body plans. For, natural selection is about the differential success of already reproducing populations [i.e. they have to embed von Neumann replicators]. As a logical consequence, origin of cell based life cannot be explained on random generation of information with natural selection. That is, WH, you here commit a logical blunder that unravels the whole story. Next, we observe that the quantum of information required for a von Neumann type replicator greatly exceeds 500 – 1,000 bits, as his analysis and subsequent work to date have shown. So it is not unexpected that in the smallest simplest organisms we find DNA covering in excess of 100 k bits. But, just 125 bytes, or 1,000 bits, implies a configuration space of 1.07 * 10^301. This — as we at UD have pointed out over and over for years now — is over ten times the square of the number of Planck-time quantum states of our observed universe of ~ 10^80 atoms, across its thermodynamic potential lifespan [~10^25 s, or about 50 million times the 13.7 BY generally said to have elapsed since the big bang]. In short, if the whole universe we observe were to be viewed as a search engine as it develops from the initial singularity forward, it could not scan through an appreciable fraction of the config space for just 1,000 bits worth of storage capacity. That is, we have an excellent reason to see that a random walk based process would not credibly arrive at the shores of ANY island of functionality in the von Neumann sense. In short, blind chance plus undirected necessity are utterly incapable of credibly originating bio-information, not to mention the underlying codes and algorithms or the coordinated implementing machines. All of which have to be in place at one and the same time for a von Neumann replicator based entity to be self replicating. That is, on entities ii to iv, it is irreducibly complex, and i and v are background requisites as well. No self-replication, no reproduction, and no differential success of competing reproducing populations. In short WH, you have committed a confident declaration of an absurdity. >> ___________________ You, ET, snipped my remarks out of that explicit, OOL linked context, and supplied a novel one, in which you objected to my failing to address NS in the CV + NS --> Darwinian evo claim. I pointed out at 70 - 71 that inter alia NS is not the information SOURCE, but the eliminator of variants that are less fit. Chance -- undirected contingency uncorrelated with purpose etc -- variation remains the only relevant info source, in whatever form. By removing from one context to another and begging he relevant question, you have quote mined. Plainly, you are unwilling to acknowledge that sad truth. I am sure onlookers will take due note, and remember when you next make an assertion. In any case, you have now made yourself into a capital example of the reality challenged nature of atheistical, amoral radical relativism rooted in evolutionary materialism; so there is at least some relevance to the topic of the thread. For, evidently, you think that merely asserting that which is manifestly false, again and again, makes it true. I will give you this: asserting a false accusation without it having been corrected can often mislead onlookers into thinking it true. But, abundant correction is on the table, so onlookers, we can see the tactic for what it is: scoop out of one context, strawmannise, refuse to deal with the key issue [on any handy excuse, here length], twist the out of context quote mined excerpt into an accusation of incompetence and/or misbehaviour. Dismiss correction, while pounding away at repeating the false accusation based on the half truth of an out of context citation. Let us remember, onlookers: to date, evo mat advocates have never been able to show empirically that FSCI can come about by chance + necessity (including natural selection!). And, they have never been able to show that the functionally specific complex organisation and associated information in cell based life came about/ plausibly came about by chance + necessity in some still warm pond, or the equivalent. Life forms at cell level incorporate codes, algorithms, programs, executing machines and the like all of great complexity and coordination. This pattern we know and only know to be produced by intelligence so we have an excellent basis for inferring on best known cause that cell based life is the product of intelligence. But, that does not sit well with the materialist worldview, so any and every dirty tactic of distraction, distortion, and denigration is used to draw us away form looking at the issue on the merits squarely and fairly. This we have seen over and over at UD for years. Now we know more of the materialist plays from their book of rhetoric. GEM of TKI PS: ET knows that if he steps sufficiently over the line into incivility, CH or whoever will be more than justified to put him on moderation and even to exclude him altogether.kairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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KF:
(Onlookers, kindly cf 100 above, where I show just how ET snipped out of one context, shifted to another, and attacked me by begging the question addressed in the original context, and 70 – 71, where I addressed his specific issue on teh merits in details starting from Darwin himself.)
You introduce a model made from a source of variation and neglect to include selection and reproductions. Onlookers will note that the parts of the comment I dropped (for brevity) do nothing to include the latter two elements in the model. So, the charge of quotemining is inaccurate at best. Further, onlookers will note that not only does my challenge in comment in 107 remain unanswered, it also remains unacknowledged.
ET has plainly shown that he is playing the trollish crocodile
Well, I will admit to being curious how long you will persist, and how much concomitant text you will generate, in avoiding acknowledgement of a simple (but significant) error in a model you proposed. You are certainly free to ignore me, allowing the discussion to stand as is. Or perhaps, you could prevail upon Clive to intervene on your behalf to exclude me from the conversation.efren ts
May 11, 2010
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Sooner, I think you would profit by looking at the UD glossary's defn on intelligence, a cite of wikipedia [i.e admission against interest by an ideologically materialist source]:
“capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn.”
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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Sooner if I get you right in your post to Upright you are arguing that transcendent information is not even "real" in the first place. Yet this presupposition of yours is now shown to be false since transcendent information is shown to be "real" in quantum experiments. Moreover it is shown that transcendent information exercises dominion of energy in these quantum experiments. and Since transcendent information exercises dominion of energy, energy which we know by the first law cannot be created nor destroyed by any material processes, then we find that all transcendent information which can exists for all events of energy, past, present and future, already must exist. (Conservation of Transcendent Information) Thus sooner you are correct to say the engineer did not create information in so much as he revealed transcendent information that was already present within reality. Moreover Sooner, It can now be shown, by double slit quantum erasure, that consciousness must precede "uncertain" 3-D material reality and reside within the transcendent information framework/dimension. further notes: "I discovered that nature was constructed in a wonderful way, and our task is to find out its mathematical structure" Albert Einstein Further reflections on the "infinite transcendent information" framework: Mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. As well, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for mass at the speed of light (i.e. the mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light.). For us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, only gets us to first base as far as quantum teleportation is concerned. That is to say, traveling at the speed of light only gets us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, "past and future folding into now", framework/dimension of time. This higher dimension "eternal" inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not "frozen within time" yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. "I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/best-brainac/article37176-2.html "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." – Richard Swenson Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, but, and this is a big but; this "timeless" travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework/dimension of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. In information teleportation though the "time not passing", eternal, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but also in our temporal framework/dimension. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks/dimensions, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus "pure information" is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks/dimensions. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which It resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). Logic also dictates "a decision" must have been made, by the "transcendent, eternal, infinite information" from the primary timeless (eternal) reality It inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive. The restriction imposed by our physical limitations of us ever accessing complete infinite information to our temporal framework/dimension does not detract, in any way, from the primacy and dominion of the infinite, eternal, transcendent, information framework/dimension that is now established by the quantum teleportation experiment as the primary reality of our reality. Of note: All of this evidence meshes extremely well with the theistic postulation of God being infinite and perfect in knowledge. "An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality" Akiane - Child Prodigy - Artwork homepage - http://www.artakiane.com/ - Music video - http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4204586 As a side light to this, leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger has followed in John Archibald Wheeler's footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is "information". "It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom - at a very deep bottom, in most instances - an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin." John Archibald Wheeler Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation: http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/ArticleDetail/tabid/68/id/8638/Default.aspx Psalm 19:1-2 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.bornagain77
May 11, 2010
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PS: Onlookers, go over to the ID uncensored thread, at 77 and 78, point 4, in which last I expose how WH blunders into a self contradiction by trying to project natural selection into the OOL context, and also how this bleeds over into the context of body plan origin. ET is implicitly in the same contradiction through his quote mining attempt.kairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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ET: Re, 121: It isn’t a quote mine to edit for brevity, so long as the original point is not changed. Prezactly. (Onlookers, kindly cf 100 above, where I show just how ET snipped out of one context, shifted to another, and attacked me by begging the question addressed in the original context, and 70 - 71, where I addressed his specific issue on teh merits in details starting from Darwin himself.) ET has plainly shown that he is playing the trollish crocodile, lurking to drag down whomever he can into a death roll in the fever swamp of distractions, distortions and denigration, towards so polarising and poisoning the atmosphere that the real issue is forgotten in the quarrel he hopes to provoke. All, just as Saul Alinsky -- cultural/ institutionalist marxist patron saint of community organisers and other change agents, so called -- taught as the way to facilitate change. In short, as the weak arguments correctives show, it's all a cleverly developed evo mat con, folks; one championed by the NCSE and ilk, and duly trumpeted to the unwary masses by the "education" and mass media agit prop spin doctors, who can't and/or won't tell the plain unvarnished truth on origins science. For, fellow sheeple waiting to be shorn (or worse) the truth would be fatal to their agenda. So, let's do a little agenda exposing again: 1] Lewontin, NYRB Jan 1997: >> It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . >> --> A priori, anti-theistical (not merely atheistical) imposition of materialism on science --> This blocks science from being an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) progressive pursuit of the truth about our world, based on empirical observation, theoretical analysis and modelling, and reasoned discussion among the informed. --> Notice, onlookers, how over many months evo mat advocates have never dared to try to contradict that description of what science should be. So why then did we see them fighting t6ooth and nail to impose a definition of science like this, from Kansas 2001, denigrating the corrective definition of 2005: 2] Kansas State Boards of Edu, defining Sci: >>2001 Definition: “Science is the human activity of seeking natural explanations of the world around us.” 2005 Definition: “Science is a systematic method of continuing investigation, that uses observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory building, to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena.”>> --> Guess why the US NASA described the 205 definition as "distorting the definition of science, in a letter to the KS BoE . . . 3] US NAS, 2008 version of their pamphlet against "creationism," p. 10: >> In science, explanations must be based on naturally occurring phenomena. Natural causes are, in principle, reproducible and therefore can be checked independently by others. If explanations are based on purported forces that are outside of nature, scientists have no way of either confirming or disproving those explanations. Any scientific explanation has to be testable — there must be possible observational consequences that could support the idea but also ones that could refute it. Unless a proposed explanation is framed in a way that some observational evidence could potentially count against it, that explanation cannot be subjected to scientific testing. >> --> notice the loaded language, and the failure to recognise that the proper contrast to nature [ = chance + necessity] is art [= intelligent, purposeful, often skilled action]. --> But, just try to suggest to the members of the NAS that the art of scientific investigation and publication can be carried on by blind chance and natural, forces, without intelligent, skilled scientists. Or, that the work of these scientists is undistinguishable from what chance and necessity can do ever so easily. --> See the blatant contradiction, just like Mr Ar4rington exposed in open court? 4] Plato's scoop on the con, c 360 BC, 2350 years ago: >>[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [evolutionary materialism has always been a philosophical a priori, and is imposed as a censoring constraint on what will be acknowledged as knowledge] . . . . these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them [notice the amoral, radical relativism and how it easily leads to tumults, rebellion and tyranny by the amoral radical relativists] . . . These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [here, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . . [Jowett translation. Emphases and explanatory parentheses added.] >> --> No prizes for guessing why this classic passage is so little known. ____________ GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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Sooner, and just what is it that bornagain77 finds so special about carbon, which can be argued to be the MOST important chemical in life, and stars? Sooner don't you find it even a little peculiar that carbon is found to be the first "heavy" element that was formed exclusively in the interior of stars after the big bang? Or are you content to merely imply in a very subtle, thinly veiled, way that this is not mysterious at all. I find your lack of engagement of the matter at hand to be very disingenuous to the profound wonder of it all. A wonder that rightly should be brought into the light of reason so that we may know with certainty the why it is as it is. notes: "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.” Michael Denton - We Are Stardust - Uncanny Balance Of The Elements - Fred Hoyle Atheist to Deist/Theist - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003877 What could make a scientist who was such a staunch atheist, as Hoyle was before his discoveries, make such a statement? The reason he made such a statement is because Hoyle was expertly trained in the exacting standards of mathematics. He knew numbers cannot lie when correctly used and interpreted. What he found was a staggering numerical balance to the many independent universal constants needed to synthesize carbon in stars. These independent constants were of such a high degree of precision as to leave no room for blind chance whatsoever. Materialism had presumed blind chance of natural laws, generated from some material basis, was the ultimate cause for the entire universe coming to be in the first place. Thus, with no wiggle room for the blind chance of materialism, Fred Hoyle had to admit the evidence he found was compelling to the proposition of intelligent design by a infinitely powerful, and transcendent, Creator. The Elements: Forged in Stars - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4003861 The Role of Elements in Life Processes http://www.mii.org/periodic/LifeElement.php Periodic Table - Interactive web page for each element http://www.mii.org/periodic/MIIperiodicChart.html "Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day." Norbert Weiner - MIT Mathematician - Father of Cyberneticsbornagain77
May 11, 2010
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BiPed,
The semiotic arrangement of cytosine-thymine-adenine in DNA results in the addition of Leucine during protein synthesis.
Yes, and stars mean carbon. If you don't understand that, get bornagain77 to explain.Sooner Emeritus
May 11, 2010
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BiPed, Your distorting, sneering, and \snort-ing brings to mind a DaveScot stripped of white box and bannination power. You boldly proclaim "Sooner Deciphered," and italicize phrases to suggest that they come from me, when you've actually made them up. I write:
If we watch as an engineer working with a pad and pencil generates a good solution to an engineering problem, we do not see “intelligence” and we do not see purpose. We certainly do not see immaterial intelligence. We see pencil marks on paper, not information, though we may be informed in various ways by the marks, depending on our various understandings of what the engineer is doing. The information is not “out there,” as a particular communal observation. There is not a basis in our communal observation for saying that immaterial intelligence created information.
You "decipher":
There is no observable basis for saying that intelligence creates information. (This is of course completely obvious as an unassailable fact. Just name one example of information which was created by intelligence).
I stepped through the scenario clearly. You can't deal with it, so you ignore it and return to blatant appeal to intuition. How would a group of observers reach consensus that the engineer had created information? Are you going to pound your "common sense" into them with a sledgehammer? I write:
And, left to your own expression of your intuition of what would have allowed you to do what we saw the engineer do, you would never say it that way ["immaterial intelligence creates information"]. Chances are good that you say that that the engineer used her intelligence to solve the problem. (This intuition, like many others, is worthless in scientific investigation.)
You "decipher":
Intuition is worthless in scientific investigation
I'm having trouble connecting this "decipherment" to what I wrote:
An engineer solving a problem by working through constraints and generating a solution is not an example of purpose (for the completely obvious reason that we cannot actually see purpose. Purpose, like gravity, and the new car behind door number three do not exist because they are not seen).
We can explain entities as serving a purpose in a physical system, but that does not mean that purpose itself is physically real. It is an abstract relation, not something we literally observe. As for the engineering having a purpose, that's a different sense of purpose, and it's again abstract. When door number three is opened, the audience either observes a physical car or it observes something else physical. Here you actually quote me, and haplessly make for me a point I was saving for later:
How do you know the engineer was intelligent? It behaved intelligently. And how do you explain the intelligent behavior? The engineer was intelligent. (So how do you know the engineer was alive? It moved. And how do you explain the movement? It was alive).
Hooray for your resurrection of vitalism. And welcome to the dormative principle:
... a story in Molière's Le Malade Imaginaire, retold by Gregory Bateson (1979): "We see on stage a medieval oral doctoral examination. The examiners ask the candidate why opium puts people to sleep. The candidate triumphantly answers, 'Because, learned doctors, it contains a dormative principle.'"
Why do some things behave intelligently? Because they have intelligence. Brilliant.Sooner Emeritus
May 11, 2010
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KF
Do you now see why I have found that ET has consistently played at quite mining and abusive strawman tactics?
You might want to consult a Dictionary. It isn't a quote mine to edit for brevity, so long as the original point is not changed. It is only a quotemine when the edit changes the meaning of what was trying to be conveyed. I would note that you have again neglected to show where in the full comment (59 on Fuller-Ruse) you referenced selection or reproduction. (Onlookers, note!) Until you do, I submit that my editting of your comment for brevity was not a quote mine, but an accurate representation. And I find myself, yet again, in a place where I have to forgive you for your libel against me.efren ts
May 11, 2010
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kairosfocus @118,
I see above what seems to have been a moderated comment on the remarks that ET quote mined and wrenched into a strawman distortion. That is a regrettable impact of moderation, but the exchange with ET shows what unmoderated exchanges would all too soon deteriorate into.
I am on that special moderation list that results in any of my comments being buried 12-24 hours behind the comments I am responding to. There was a post of mine I directed you to that you didn't know even existed. It results in shorter and shorter responses on my part since I can't afford to invest time in something that won't be read. This is bad training for your side when the debate hits public forums as your experience here will not prepare you for the type of responses and questions you will get in an open exchange. It is like a boxer who prepares for a championship fight with sparring partners who aren't allowed to hit back, and that is the impact of moderation on your side, an unprepared ID proponent. In my opinion, which differs from yours, efren ts has been civil and fair.Toronto
May 11, 2010
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UB:
Have any of them produced even a conceptual idea of how chemical compounds formed an abstraction of themselves, and then instatiated that into a material medium?
Are actually asking if there is a community of scientists executing a research program into abiogenesis? SRSLY? You know, I get that you aren't a wporking scientist. So, I don't expect you to be intimately familiar with the current state of the art, so to speak. Heck, it is hard enough for working scientists to do so. But, this question is so....so....you know, I can't even think of a nice way to characterize this question.efren ts
May 11, 2010
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Onlookers: Lastly for now, let us remind ourselves of just what Sir Fred Hoyle had to say, in his 1982 Omni Lecture at the Royal Institution, London, entitled “Evolution from Space,”Omni Lecture at the Royal Institution, London, entitled “Evolution from Space,” and later printed as a book:
Once we see that life is cosmic it is sensible to suppose that intelligence is cosmic. Now problems of order, such as the sequences of amino acids in the chains which constitute the enzymes and other proteins, are precisely the problems that become easy once a directed intelligence enters the picture, as was recognised long ago by James Clerk Maxwell in his invention of what is known in physics as the Maxwell demon. The difference between an intelligent ordering, whether of words, fruit boxes, amino acids, or the Rubik cube, and merely random shufflings can be fantastically large, even as large as a number that would fill the whole volume of Shakespeare’s plays with its zeros. So if one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure or order must be the outcome of intelligent design [my emphasis]. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.” [pp. 27-28]
Until evolutionary materialist advocates can answer cogently to the information, statistical thermodynamics and related issues, they cannot claim the blanket authority of evolutionary materialist biologists to dismiss these issues. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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Toronto: I see above what seems to have been a moderated comment on the remarks that ET quote mined and wrenched into a strawman distortion. That is a regrettable impact of moderation, but the exchange with ET shows what unmoderated exchanges would all too soon deteriorate into. (Strong moderation at UD seems to have come out of having to deal with trollishness.) I will pause to point out that I focussed in my original comment on the issue that it is a good empirical test point [with potential falsification] of design theory to show that one can, say using a zener noise generator -- now a standard approach used by the lottery industry and others who need a credible real random number source [often by using such to seed a Johnson style ring counter with feedback or similar pseudorandom generator, to flatten off the distribution] -- generate at least 1,000 bits worth of cogent information. In that context, I connected it using words and videos to the origin of cell based life with the relevant digital information system being shown in action. Surely, you are aware that until self-replicating life forms emerge one cannot appeal to natural selection of competing populations? And, that as I have several times summarised, von Neumann showed how self replication involves:
(i) an underlying code to record/store the required information and to guide procedures for using it, (ii) a coded blueprint/tape record of such specifications and (explicit or implicit) instructions, together with (iii) a tape reader that reads and interprets the coded specifications and associated instructions, and (iv) implementing machines (and associated organisation and procedures) to carry out the specified replication (including that of the constructor itself); backed up by (v) either:
(1) a pre-existing reservoir of required parts and energy sources, or (2) associated “metabolic” machines carrying out activities that provide required specific materials and forms of energy by using the generic resources in the surrounding environment.
Until components ii to iv are in place with i and v in the background, we cannot have a viable self-replicating cell based life form. Thus, OOL -- the context I EXPLICITLY had primarily in view -- cannot properly appeal to natural selection as a part of the process of creating the required information, as without reproduction of organisms and replication of cells, there can be no differential reproductive success of sub populations in environments. Similarly, given the factors I discussed in 70 - 71 above, novel body plans cannot compete reproductively until they are there in functional form. With the Cambrian fossil revolution and the usual timeline of 5 - 10 MY in mind, could you let us know on what empirically backed basis, you can show that it is credible that: 1: 10's - 100's of millions of bits/bases worth of relevant bio information to form tissues, organs, systems and novel organisms with dozens of different body plans could emerge by accumulation of minor mutational steps, then 2: dominate ecological niches by competing for survival of slightly diverse populations in ecological environments? Witrhout: 3: leaving behind a clear and massive fossil record of the gradually transitional populations? --> On what grounds would your explanation be superior to the inference that such advanced tech digital information systems are best explained as he artifacts of design, per the common experience on the source of codes, algorithms and physical implementing systems for same? --> Do you now see why I have found that ET has consistently played at quite mining and abusive strawman tactics? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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Now, Seversky:
Re: Chemistry, polymer dynamics, cybernetics and information theory are all complex fields in their own right. Hoyle was a great scientist but to expect someone who is a master in his own field to equal the knowledge of masters in a number of other fields is asking too much of even the greatest genius. . . . You, along with others here, have perpetuated the calumny that evolutionary biology is devoid of ancillary knowledge or skills. That is simply wrong. Within that field there are those with skills in mathematics, computation and information theory, for example, that are fully the equal of anyone posting to this blog. Of course, you will never be confronted with any challenge to your own knowledge or beliefs while sheltering behind the heavy moderation shielding of this blog.
Of course, first of all, the disgraceful episode of ET's misbehaviour in recent days shows the reason why fairly strict moderation is necessary here. For, he has repeatedly ducked discussion on the merits, and has skirted the limits of the discipline imposed in this blog to restrain the full force of the typical secularist trollish agenda or distraction, distortion and denigration. The selfsame agenda and associated Alinskyite tactics that are now wreaking such havoc in the body politic of our civilisation at large. Next, it is plain that you do not see the ironic contradiction in your remarks just above. While you want to trash the reputation of a Nobel Prize winner who is addressing the issues on the merits that come up as he focussed on requisites for the emergence of life in the cosmos -- he could not have known enough to bridge fields -- you then proceed to declare how the biologists of today can bridge the fields ever so well. But in fact the problem was never at core the mere technical issues. Absent indoctrination and ide3ologisation of the disciplines, it would at once have been plain as we moved across the 1950s and 60;s, that the origin of life stories being told in biology and related fields did not add up informationally and thermodynamically, nor cybernetically. For, the actual chemistry of polymerisation, the statistical and general thermodynamics tied to such reactions, and the issues of searching large configuration spaces are not particularly difficult topics for one who has a reasonable undergraduate exposure to the topics in physics, chemistry and linked fields. Absent one thing: indoctrination, resulting ideologisation of a field and its blinding effects. So, it is no surprise to see that across the 70's into the 80's, the questions were asked, and the answers were forthcoming, as TMLO so aptly sums up. But, as we moved across the 1980's into the 90s the magisterium closed ranks, and explicitly imposed the a priori agenda of materialism as Lewontin described so clearly in 1997:
Sagan's argument is straightforward. We exist as material beings in a material world, all of whose phenomena are the consequences of physical relations among material entities. The vast majority of us do not have control of the intellectual apparatus needed to explain manifest reality in material terms, so in place of scientific (i.e., correct material) explanations, we substitute demons . . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
That "few" of course included Sir Fred Hoyle; who all along his career had the native Cockney independence of thought that so often mad him a colourful figure, willing to buck the system and march to the beat of his own drummer, guided by his scientific integrity and independence of mind. Getting back to the scientific issues, what happened is that across the 1950's - 60's, it became clear that biochemistry and molecular biology had established that the cell in core processes operates as a digital information system. One that uses key information rich polymers assembled using other such polymers [esp. enzymes, RNA, DNA etc] to carry out this pattern of step by step algorithmic processes. (Notice, onlookers, how none of the evo mat advocates above have been able to cogently address the import of the video I keep linking, as a basic demonstration of this key point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxobgkPEAo&feature=related ) Now, for excellent reasons repeatedly described above -- and just as repeatedly distracted from by evo mat advocates [who while loudly complaining about censorship and the like, and while making sweeping dismissive remarks, have never yet produced a cogent response on the merits] -- we routinely observet hat such things are made by intelligent agents. And, we have just as good reason to note that we have never seen such an entity produced by chance and blind mechanical forces. Similarly, we have excellent reason to see that once we are dealing with functionally specific complex information, the search capacity of the cosmos would be fruitlessly exhausted without being able to scan an appreciable fraction of the possible configurations. So, we know that we have an argument by inference to best empirically and mathematically backed explanation -- NOT an appeal to personal incredulity. And, we see that the counters are as a rule distractive from rather than addressing of the merits. Furthermore, once we move up tothe level of novel body plans and major organs such as wings or eyes, etc, we see that further large increments in bio-functional information are required to get a body plan or an organ that is functional, before we can even begin to talk about differential reproductive success of sub populations. No wonder the actual record of the fossils and modern observation is that life forms overwhelmingly come in discrete islands of functional forms, with very very few credible bridging forms; if any. This -- never mind the so often repeated, headlined stories of missing links now found -- utterly contrasts with the smoothly varying, branching tree that would be required to demonstrate Darwinian evolution as an empirically credible account of the origin of life. (So much is this the case that at about the same time theories of punctuated equilibria were brought forth to try to explain the persistent gaps and stasis in the fossil record.) That should tell us the plain balance on the merits, once the artificial censoring imposition of a priori evolutionary materialism is removed. So, Sev, can you kindly tell us, preferably in a points form summary or excerpt [with onward links as necessary], just what the cogent rebuttal is that you claim "[t]hese issues have been dealt with"? For -- setting aside a priori imposition of materialism, just so illustrative stories and ducking and dodging on the subject of the credible origin of bio-information and information systems by chance plus necessity -- we have not found a serious, cogent, empirically backed naturalistic, evolutionary materialistic account of origins of either life or body plan level biodiversity of life. We would welcome a summary of such a cogent account that does not beg the questions at stake and provides material empirical warrant. So, let's hear it . . . and BTW, on the OOL side, I think there is an unclaimed US$ 100,000 prize awaiting your account. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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Onlookers: It is rather clear that ET is acting in the role of a distractive troll, having injected a matter form another thread here, and then proceeded to --now explicitly (with personalities) -- refuse to address mattrers on the merits, instead seeking to play the crocodile lurking in a lab coat that tres to drag the unwary down into the secular humanist evolutionary materialist fever swamp of distraction, distortion and denigration, trying to turn serious discussion into polarising quarrels. Upright, very appropriately, has called him out on the merits, yet again. So, let us draw the bottomline:
[a] the evo mat advocates plainly have no answer on the merits as to how chemicals in a Darwinian swamp could write themselves into 100+ k bits of codes, algorithms, data structures, programs and implementing machinery, i.e. the living cell. Worse, [b] they have no cogent explanation of how such a living cell could elaborate itself in a window of 5 - 10 MY into dozens of major body plans that each require increments of 10 - 100+ mns of bits of bio-functional information. But, [c] They wish to put on the lab coats of science and rtell us that the only known, empirically well-warranted source of codes, algorithms, data structures and programs plus implementing machinery -- in the name of "Science" -- MUST not ever be allowed in the door. Lest [d] the dreaded Divine Foot open the door to what they so plainly fear to the point of routinely resorting to distractive, distorting, deceptive and disrespectful rhetoric to subvert.
But, all in pursuit of the evo mat agenda that Plato warned us against the amorality of 2300 years ago, for good reason [the sad example of Alcibiades and co being fresh in his mind]. So, let us give a later genius, the greatest mind but one of the C1, a voice in rebuke to such:
Rom 1:18For (A)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (B)suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because (C)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For (D)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (E)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse . . . . 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (P)God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are (Q)gossips, 30slanderers, (R)haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, (S)disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, (T)unloving, unmerciful . . . [NASB]
Grimly, sadly familiar. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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"You know, you really should go forth from the confines here into the broader world. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of scientists working away discovering more and more about the life sciences, blissfully deluded by their own productivity" Interesting. Very interesting. Have any of them produced even a conceptual idea of how chemical compounds formed an abstraction of themselves, and then instatiated that into a material medium? The only reason I ask, is well, for two reasons: 1) becuase they have artificially limited themselves to the assumption that chemicals can do it, and 2) because that is what is necessary to explain how life as we see it came to be as we see it.Upright BiPed
May 10, 2010
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KF
It is absolutely — and, sadly — plain that you have no intention to address the primary matters on the merits.
Well, I will say this for you: you do have an uncanny knack for grasping the obvious. I do not have the good fortune of having found employment as a professional blog commenter. So, as I have said, I have neither the time nor inclination to wade through volumes of your turgid prose in hopes of finding the proverbial pony.
In short you — and many darwinists before you all the way back to Darwin himself — have distractively majored on a point that begs the primary question, because you have no good answer to the point that the only credible, empirically observed source of functional, coded digital information, as is required for the sort of function we may see in this video is intelligence.
You know, you really should go forth from the confines here into the broader world. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of scientists working away discovering more and more about the life sciences, blissfully deluded by their own productivity to the empty shell of an choice they have made. Only you, sir, can save their souls!
After all the main audience is not you, but the onlookers, the reported 10 – 15,000 per day.
Indeed, not only am I aware of that, I am counting on it.efren ts
May 10, 2010
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kairosfocus @ 81
The aspects of exobiology that Sir Fred addressed in his writings at the turn of the 1980’s were well within the ambit of a highly knowledgeable phsyicist.
Exobiology may be "with the ambit" of an astronomer in the sense that it is a related field in which he or she is interested. But being interested in exobiology does not make an astronomer an exobiologist. I remember that in the 1980's - although not just then - there was concern that the explosive growth in the amount of data being gathered by science meant that researchers were having difficulty keeping up with developments in their own fields, let alone what was happening in neighboring fields.
Remember, once we look at origin of life issues and related concerns, we are looking at chemistry, polymer dynamics, thermodynamics, cybernetics, and information issues. Physicists and related scientists are routinely qualified to speak to any and all of these, most biologists are not.
Chemistry, polymer dynamics, cybernetics and information theory are all complex fields in their own right. Hoyle was a great scientist but to expect someone who is a master in his own field to equal the knowledge of masters in a number of other fields is asking too much of even the greatest genius.
In short, biology and relatged biochemistry opened up a doorway to other provinces of science, and the dominant theories of biology have not fared well in light of the cluster of insights form such fields.
You, along with others here, have perpetuated the calumny that evolutionary biology is devoid of ancillary knowledge or skills. That is simply wrong. Within that field there are those with skills in mathematics, computation and information theory, for example, that are fully the equal of anyone posting to this blog. Of course, you will never be confronted with any challenge to your own knowledge or beliefs while sheltering behind the heavy moderation shielding of this blog.
No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.”
In other words, here we have the great astronomer resorting to the standard argument from incredulity.
Until you can answer cogently to the information, statistical thermodynamics and related issues, you cannot claim the blanket authority of evolutionary materialist biologists to dismiss these issues.
These issues have been dealt with but apparently you prefer to pretend those arguments were never advanced.Seversky
May 10, 2010
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Not at all -- and certainly not by the standards you apply to ID supporters on this site.pelagius
May 10, 2010
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pelagius,
Why did you delete my last comment?
It was rude.Clive Hayden
May 10, 2010
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ET It is absolutely -- and, sadly -- plain that you have no intention to address the primary matters on the merits. In particular, onlookers can see that you have no intention to address the plain fact that until functional information of great specificity and complexity is created -- coded, algorithmic information -- selection of relatively good performers through that relative success is moot. And, this applies with great force to the context I directly addressed, OOL, with direct extensions to the origin of body plans. As the now notoriously systematic gaps and contradictions surrounding the Darwinian style tree of life demonstrate. In short you -- and many darwinists before you all the way back to Darwin himself -- have distractively majored on a point that begs the primary question, because you have no good answer to the point that the only credible, empirically observed source of functional, coded digital information, as is required for the sort of function we may see in this video is intelligence. However, by now it is equally plain to the onlooker that when you resorts to distractors, caricatures and personalities, it is because you plainly have little confidence in your case on the merits. For good reason, as I have laid out above. So, I will note on these points on the merits, and ignore the further personalities and turnabout false accusations. After all the main audience is not you, but the onlookers, the reported 10 - 15,000 per day. I am quite sure they can easily see who has addressed the merits, and who has ducked and begged first questions, using an out of context, quote-mined excerpt to make a strawman. Good day, sir. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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KF:
So, to try to jump all over me for not specifically mentioning NS in a context where NS is by implication a secondary quesiton once you hav eto first get to initial life function and then to the increments in bio-information to have novel body plans, is a strawman tactic.
While I applaud your attempt at brevity, you should nonetheless strive for an argument that is self-contained. I will accept this as your acknowledgement that the comment in question was incomplete and could be misleading with someone not initimately familiar with your expensive body of prose.
you have made every excuse to duck the duty to be fair or to address issues on the merits.
I have forgiven you twice for libelous statements made against me. I am not sure how much more fair I am required to be. As far as the other issues you wish to turn to, I really don't have the time, like others, to tax the gourd which sits upon my shoulders, mulling over (apparently) every word you have ever written.efren ts
May 10, 2010
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ET: You are now carrying on like a stuck record, sadly. I have pointed out to you that the origin of information that is functionally specific and complex is the causally prior issue, and that unless you have function, you cannot get to selection (whether artificial or natural); first for initial life in the cell, then later for body plans. Credibly the info required in both cases greatly exceeds 125 bytes, or 1,000 bits: 100 k+ bits, and 10s of millions of bits or more. Cf 70 - 71 for specifics, above. Or, in terms of Darwin's tree of life and descendants to today: we have no credible root for the tree -- no means to get the digital info system that characterises cell based life, apart form the known source of such FSCI: intelligence. And, the trunk and branches are being done on a connect the dots basis, with mutual contradictions between the traditional fossil and comparative anatomy based tree and the various molecular trees. In short, the fossil and current world evidence is that life comes in discrete islands of function, with strongly conserved molecular basis. So, the problem with headlining natural selection is that it begs the prior question I pointed out as a key point: origin of complex, code based, functionally specific information in cell based life. And, my main point was and is what you are trying very hard not to address: the only known, routinely observed source of such FSCI is intelligence, and when we look at the other main source of contingency, chance, a random walk search will be overwhelmed by the number of possible configs that are non-functional. In short the problem is to get to shores of function in the config space. So, to try to jump all over me for not specifically mentioning NS in a context where NS is by implication a secondary quesiton once you hav eto first get to initial life function and then to the increments in bio-information to have novel body plans, is a strawman tactic. Worse, it is in the context where, one or two clicks away you could easily have sen my specific discussion of the point. Multiplying that, when I elaborated in 70 - 71 above, you have made every excuse to duck the duty to be fair or to address issues on the merits. All of this speaks very strongly to what Mr Arrington highlighted above. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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Toronto: I will grant that the Zilog Z80 was an improvement on the 8080 and its predecessor the 8008. Relative to the 6800 or 6809 [remember, a cut-down DEC PDP-11], that is a very different question. And of course the 6502 was a real race horse too. I looked at no 64, and see where you complain about being in mod. I am not sure why, but am willing to be patient. On the matter in the main for the thread, I am of the rather firm opinion that Aristotle got it right 2300 years ago:
That the most certain of all beliefs is that opposite statements are not both true at the same time, and what follows for those who maintain that they are true, and why these thinkers maintain this, may be regarded as adequately stated. And since the contradiction of a statement cannot be true at the same time of the same thing, it is obvious that contraries cannot apply at the same time to the same thing . . . . Nor indeed can there be any intermediate between contrary statements, but of one thing we must either assert or deny one thing, whatever it may be. This will be plain if we first define truth and falsehood. To say that what is is not, or that what is not is, is false; but to say that what is is, and what is not is not, is true; and therefore also he who says that a thing is or is not will say either what is true or what is false. But neither what is nor what is not is said not to be or to be. Further, an intermediate between contraries will be intermediate either as grey is between black and white, or as "neither man nor horse" is between man and horse. [Metaphysics, 1011b]
On the general matter, discounting the strawmannising I have been subjected to above, you will see that I have laid out the basic issue of origin of functionally specific complex information in 70 - 71. (Bet you didn't know about Darwin's lamarckism. You may have known about his inference to a god at the close of origin. but I'll bet you have never had to answer to the issue that once such a god is in the picture, then you cannot simply confine him to one convenient spot. So, if the evidence points to discrete origins of body plans, you have a candidate explanation that, since you admit it for the first body plan uncle Charlie, you cannot dispense with so easily thereafter.) Going farther, analogue info processing is info processing. (And of course anyone who claims to be doing digital info processing but not analogue, is in a state of mortal sin: we are working with analogue components . . . which is where 90% of the hardware headaches come from. I still do not know why a certain power supply leg to a certain chip in one of my ckts required ~ 300pF silvered mica caps to clean up the power supply and prevent PS glitch-triggered switching. Ordinary ceramic caps would not do. Silver and mica or nothing. And since it was a lab environment, it got silver and mica, never mind the cost. Cheaper than the waste of time to work around.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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KF:
Above I posted the full comment and showed just how you quote-mined, took out of context and inserted a typical darwinist talking point; twisting into a strawman.
I have pointed out that your analog for natural evolution only contained reference to the source of random input. Reproducing the comment in full doesn't change that conclusion. So your charge of quotemining is specious. But, I am a generous sort. All you just need to do one simple thing. Point out where your comment 59 in the Fuller-Ruse thread (also reproduced in it's entirety above)where you discuss selection and reproduction relative to your zener/amp system. Until you do that, all the rest of your comments are affecting high dudgeon as haute couture.efren ts
May 10, 2010
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I wonder,,, are these freshman are senior evolutionary biology students: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYis-I_YdOY ------------ Creed - One Last Breath HQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6aCpKOVyWMbornagain77
May 10, 2010
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ET: Above I posted the full comment and showed just how you quote-mined, took out of context and inserted a typical darwinist talking point; twisting into a strawman. You now want to change subject to personalities, instead of accepting a correction that you need. I note to you again: until one has complex information-rich function at origin of life, thus FSCI, one cannot have life and reproduction and selection, artificial or natural. No function, no life; and on evidence, such function requires not 1,000 bits but in excess of 100,000 bits of information. Similarly, yesterday, I showed in details that you refuse to examine, how until one has a functional new body plan, credibly requiring 10's to 100's of millions of bits of novel FSCI [starting with the Cambrian fossil revolution], one cannot select for superior performance among competing populations. What is being exposed here is the implicit assumption of the Darwinian tree of life: initial function is easy to get to, and tee is a continuous continent of function that joins initial life to the multi-branched forms we see in the fossil record and today. But in fact the fossil record, with over quarter million species and millions of samples, overwhelmingly shows gaps not smoothly varying transformations. Similarly, molecular reconstructions show contradictory "trees" and evidence of libraries and reuse of structures, e.g the platypus has molecules that come from all over the tree of life, i.e. it is a mosaic animal at molecular not just gross anatomical levels. The empirical data, in short, points very plainly to islands of function in a sea of non-function. Which is precisely what we should expect of codes, programs and data structures: one cannot credibly get form one program to another by random shifts of bits. Such an approach, starting from an initial program will corrupt the information, and starting from random noise will never get to a first island of function. Not with 1,000 bits or 125 bytes, and not on the gamut of the observed universe. So, the point is that natural selection presupposes existing functions to select from, and selection is by differential performance. But, that presupposes having function in the first place. And that function plainly rests on functionally specific complex information. Which, you plainly cannot accept as it would make the whole Darwinian house of cards collapse spectacularly. (But you see he was 100 years too early to know the degree to which life in the cell rests on a digital information system. Watch the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxobgkPEAo&feature=related ) Onlookers can therefore see well enough for themselves how you have quote-mined, distorted and strawmannised as you have sought to change the subject, imagining in the frst instance that you caught out one of those ignorant, stupid, insane or wicled anti darwinists. (The subtext of contempt and overconfidence is, sadly, all too plain.) But instead, you only succeeded in showing that you have not paid careful attention to the issues, and that you resorted to strawman tactics by playing at quote-mining. SMACK! Your Darwinian alternate reality has run into the real reality: life in the cell is based on a complex digital, algorithmic information system. I think I can fairly leave it at that. Good day, sir. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 10, 2010
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