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“Self-Evident” Does Not Mean “Apparent”

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Many of our materialist friends do not seem to know the difference between the epistemological categories of “self-evident” and “apparent.” I am providing this primer on the difference to help them understand.

Here is a typical exchange where a materialist makes this category error.

Barry: It is self-evident that torturing an infant for pleasure is evil.

Materialist: Yeah, lots of things that have seemed self-evident have turned out to be false. For example, people used to believe it is self-evident that the earth is flat, and they were dead wrong.

Where has M gone wrong? First, M has gone wrong on the basic factual premise of his comparison. The ancients knew the earth was round and even measured its circumference. Great discussion here.

But the fact that materialists continue to spew this factually incorrect chestnut over and over after repeated correction is secondary for our purposes today. More importantly, M has failed to understand the epistemological difference between “apparent” and “self-evident.” “Apparent” means “according to appearances.” M has asserted that it is apparent to many people that the earth is flat. That appearance is false. And by equivocating between “apparent” and “self-evident” he attempts to prove that some self-evident propositions are false.

Nonsense. In the sense we are using it, “self-evident” is not a synonym for “apparent.” Instead, a self-evident proposition is defined as a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning without proof. In that sense, is the proposition “the earth is flat” a self-evident proposition? Let’s see.

P1: The earth is flat.

P2: How do you know?

P1: Just go outside and look at it.

What has P1 just done? He has appealed to evidence in order to prove his statement. That very appeal means that his statement cannot be considered self-evident. Go back to our definition. A self-evident claim is one that we know to be true without proof.

An example of a self-evident claim is that 2+2=4. I cannot “prove” that 2+2=4. But does the fact that I cannot prove the proposition mean that I must conclude it is false? Of course not. I know the proposition to be true without proof merely because I understand what it means. Another way of looking at it is that I know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd in the sense that it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true I would have to reject rationality itself.

Unlike the statement “the earth is flat,” the statement 2+2=4 is not merely apparently true, it is necessarily true in any rational universe.

We have a clue that we are not talking about a self-evident truth when a proposition is appended to the word “believe.” Yes, people believe self-evident truths in the sense that they must necessarily accede to the fact that they are true. But people do not “believe” self-evident truths in the sense that they have evaluated the evidence and reached a conclusion they think is justified. Self-evident propositions are not subject to proof or disproof by empirical evidence. They are necessarily true. A person’s belief about a self-evident truth is irrelevant and is therefore rarely expressed. Thus, when one talks about a proposition that is either “believed” or “disbelieved” it is a clue that the proposition is not a proposition of self-evident truth.

This brings me back to my original statement. Numerous materialists with whom I have argued have denied that the statement “torturing an infant for pleasure is evil” is self-evidently true. They always agree that it is true. They never agree that it is self-evidently, necessarily true.

And I always ask them this question: Please describe the circumstances under which the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is true. I say we can know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd because it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true we would have to reject rationality itself. The same is true of all self-evident propositions. The negation of any self-evident truth is absurd and rationality itself must be rejected in order to accept such a negation. I say the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is just such an absurd negation of a self-evident truth. You, materialist, say it is not. Please support your assertion.

Dear readers, note that my challenge is extremely risky, epistemologically speaking, because even a single instance where it is met will shatter my project into a million pieces.

Happily, no one has ever come remotely close to answering this challenge. And it is easy to see why.

Comments
Aleta @ 137 Think of two apples in your mind. Then think of two more apples along with the first two. You are now thinking of four apples. How many material things did you count?Barry Arrington
September 2, 2015
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2 + 2 = 4 is true (and so simple that it is immediately seen as true). However, for someone to recognize it as true, one would have to understand what "2", "+", "=", and "4". I would like to challenge those who declare that that 2 + 2 = 4 is "self-evidently" true to define and explain those concepts in a way that doesn't rely on referring to material properties of the world. My belief is that those beginning concepts are reflections or representations of basic facts about how, in our experience, objects exist as unique entities - they have distinct boundaries which separate them from other objects, and that they retain their "objectness" when they are moved around and combined with other objects. In a different material world, or in a purely mental world with no material world to reference, these properties might not be true. After establishing the beginning concepts, I think what one would find is that the reason 2 + 2 = 4 is self-evidently true is that it is true by definition. The reason we feel that is has some special self-evidencey is because our understanding of the basic concepts is so embedded in our understanding of how our world - our material world - works, and because, as KF's crow example illustrates, the quantities are so small that we have a biological, pre-verbal ability to understand them So, in summary, 2 + 2 = 4 is self-evident because a) the underlying concepts are based on basic properties of the material world, b) we have created symbolic definitions that mirror those properties, and c) the quantities are so small so all normal humans can grasp them without any calculation involved.Aleta
September 2, 2015
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Folks, There may be some progress here, some degree of general understanding on what SETs are, and a glimmer of hope that their foundational significance will be grasped. That is very important. Going back to comment no 1:
. . . there is one other key feature to self-evident truths, when one attempts to deny them, the result is immediately and patently absurd. Once, you have sufficient background experience of reality to understand what is meant when the truth is asserted. (That can be a problem; as Aquinas pointed out, i.e. there is such a thing as a pons asinorum.) True per understanding what is being said, necessarily true and this on pain of immediate patent absurdity on attempted dismissal or denial. The problem we are seeing is one of lack of understanding, as is manifest in the confusion between the obvious or apparent and the properly self-evident. This is backed up by clinging to absurdity due to ideological programming, dominance of agendas and the like. In the case of moral SETs, too often there is endarkenment due to the hardness of heart and/or the need to benumb oneself to fend off guilt and linked cognitive dissonance. I think it is critical to underscore, too, that when one believes error to be truth, the real truth will usually contradict it and therefore will seem false to you. But error will soon enough manifest its true status, on close examination. But that can be hard, and may require for one’s life to go crash for it to be believed. Pain and grief do a lot to open closed minds and hardened hearts, if we are willing to listen to that still small voice saying, y’know, you were wrong way back there and that’s why this is happening, why things have fallen apart.
In short, SETs are a peculiar subset of necessary truths, those that simply by understanding what is being claimed, will be seen as so, as necessarily so, and as this on pain of patent absurdity. As SB put it in 124 above "it would be irrational, absurd, and unthinkable to doubt it." Now, as BA cited from Chesterton in 122:
[Natural law] is not a necessity, for though we can count on it happening practically, we have no right to say that it must always happen. It is no argument for unalterable law (as Huxley fancied) that we count on the ordinary course of things. We do not count on it; we bet on it.
This brings out an important point. Laws of nature are from our perspective so-far successful summaries of empirically reliable circumstances, forces and factors that we see generally obtaining. They need not always obtain, nor are the statements of them necessarily ultimately true, they are provisional. We may be confident, but indeed, we are betting. Similarly, matters of fact in the world of experience are generally contingently so, what did turn out, and are attested to by witnesses, traces, record and circumstances, etc. We may hold moral certainty, but there is an irreducible possibility of error. Moral certainty, meaning, that we would be irresponsible to act on a serious matter, as though the relevant facts in question were false. Matters of fact are not matters of self-evident truth. But what about experience, understanding etc.? These, are required for us to make proper sense of circumstances, it is not just a matter for SETs. You really do need to know some things to make sense of 2 + 3 = 5. Failing which, you are at the pons asinorum. And, if you are lacking in experience or are beclouded by clinging to error, you will unjustifiably doubt or may even dismiss SETs that cut across your agenda. However, at the price of being forced to cling to absurdity. For instance, it is a commonplace that we have rights, reasonable expectations that we be respected in certain ways. It is also a commonplace that we are intelligent and rational, capable of thinking and understanding for ourselves. This last is locked into our immediate, personal, direct awareness that we are self-aware beings. Which, BTW is "fact no 1" or indeed truth no 1. Even if we are deluded about circumstances, once we understand what being self aware means, the very act of being aware makes it plain that it would be absurd to doubt our consciousness. (One may doubt that of perceived others [per all sorts of possibilities or speculations], but not one's own consciousness.) This is thus a SET: we are self-aware, and rational. If you doubt that we have a faculty of reason, consider that the act of doubt is . . . an act of reason i/l/o the possibility of error. (And that error exists is undeniably, self evidently true, showing warranted, credibly true belief, here to undeniable certainty; decisively undermining vast swathes of systems that reduce truth and knowledge to opinion etc.) Therefore, what runs contrary to that, we have a right to doubt or even dismiss. Such become particularly important in assessing moral truths. First, we do have a faculty, conscience, that informs us that we are under moral government, as a part and parcel of our self-aware inner, rational life. To reject such as delusional, because of that integral status, then would spread grand delusion across that inner life. We cannot but live based on the premise of rationality and so any scheme of grand delusion (as opposed to mere commonplace or widespread specific error) can be held absurd. Bye bye Plato's cave worlds, etc. But, we expect to find points of error, we are fallible. In that light, we have every good reason to see that it is immoral, evil, even demonically wicked and "sick" for someone to kidnap, bind, gag, sexually assault and murder a young child going home from school for reasons of twisted pleasure. Not least, as such violation of person and robbing of life destroys the potential to exercise any other rights. Similarly, the violation of an infant for similarly sick pleasure is undeniably wrong. Were such to spread across society unchecked, chaos and disintegration would be the obvious consequences. It is certainly more plausible that such are true than that their denial is true, and what is more, the attempted denial is absurd. (That is why skeptics routinely skirt such denial.) Now, too, RDM at 121 writes:
in many respects, philosophical arguments are simply plausibility comparisons. One argument/view is simply more plausible than another. Now, in terms of a plausibility comparison between “it is always and everywhere wrong and evil to torture a child for fun” and “materialism is true and thus it is not always wrong to torture a child for fun”, the former is light-years more plausible and certain than the latter. Any worldview that rejects that moral truth is infinitely less plausible than the moral truth itself. In fact, that moral truth is more plausible than the claim that “matter itself exists”. And so, the irony here is the following: the moment that I doubt the truth of that moral statement is the moment that I gain infinitely more reason to doubt the truth of materialism (or naturalism, to use a different name for it). Now the second great irony in hearing the materialist argue, in part, against self-evident truths, is that materialism, at its core, depends, in a certain way, on the idea of self-evidence. And not in the ways already mentioned—although in those as well—but rather in that the existence of matter itself is arguably supported by nothing but self-evidence. After all, what is the materialist’s proof or empirical evidence that matter actually exists?
Yes, if we include within plausibility, that there is a context of worldviews level comparative difficulties and that some forms of implausibility spring from being found incoherent or otherwise absurd. Which, in certain cases, can be patent and undeniable, on pain of clinging to error. The connexion to "matter exists" of course, is that our first fact and SET is our self aware conscious rationality. To deny or reject that is absurd. But, we access the external world of facts including matter, energy and space-time, through that self-aware rational consciousness. So, if a belief about the external world undermines our inner life, spreading grand delusion through it, it saws off the branch on which it must sit. As Haldane put it:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
So, RDM has hit the nail on the head. And from this point, we are in a position to see many other things. If we are willing to follow where this leads. Especially, if we are willing to ask, how can OUGHT be grounded in a world where matter, energy, space, time and arithmetical facts etc cannot do so? Are we stuck at Hume's objection, arguing is, is then jumping across to ought, ought with no bridge possible between the two? Or, is it possible to look to the world root and find there an IS that can adequately ground OUGHT? In the words of the US Founders, in the 2nd para of the US DoI:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15, 13:8 - 10 -- and given Locke and Blackstone etc all teh way back tot he opening passages of King Alfred's Book of Dooms, those and other texts of like order patently lurk there . . . ], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .
Okay, what results from trying to deny that such claimed moral truths are so? Where is such pointing? What, then, should we do? KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2015
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DS, oh, I see -- I typed five not three. Pardon. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2015
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Silver Asiatic @ 81 -
The first principles of geometry (or logic in this case) are self-evidently true. You can’t prove the first principles since they’re axiomatic. They have to be accepted, otherwise logic is impossible.
You have to be careful here. Axioms are assumptions, so yes they have to be accepted, but that doesn't mean they are self-evidently true. Leaving aside sets of axioms that are contradictory, there's no reason for the axions to be true outside of the system of axioms. Geometry is a great example of this: although the parallel line postulate seems obvious, there are geometries where is it not true.Bob O'H
September 2, 2015
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Thinking on it a little more, rather than sleeping as I should, the next obvious question to answer would be: why are the Declaration of Independence's truths held self-evident in this sense? Wondering if someone might explain them in light of necessary truths understood and held by Jefferson and the signers? And why, since modern materialists reject the assumptions, they should themselves hold to any of the self-evident truths therein?mugwump3
September 2, 2015
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Don't think I disagree with you, Barry. I might have omitted the message there. All mathematical truths are derived by and under-stood by self-evident truths. Not that being necessary is equal to self-evident. I intended to communicate that both necessary truths and self-evident truths, both as a subset and basis of necessary truths, do not require man's assent to be true. I was just disarming the main defense launched by the subjectivists. General revelation written on the hearts of man are pronouncedly different than special revelation. Prophecy and miracle (intentionally within the restrictions of time and spacial law), of course, as gracious evidences...thus not self-evident, as you say.mugwump3
September 1, 2015
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mugwump3 @ 130. I agree that all true mathematical equations are necessarily true. I do not agree that they are all self-evidently true. All self-evident truths are necessary truths. Not all necessary truths are self-evident truths. Consider the most necessary truth of all -- God. Hebrews 11:6 says that He requires us to approach him in faith. It is a reasoned and reasonable faith to be sure. But it is still faith. And what is faith? Believing in the face of possible doubt. If doubt were not possible, faith would not be possible either. They are opposite sides of the same coin. The proposition "God exists" is true. I agree with you that it is even necessarily true. But it is not self-evident. Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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SteRusJon had the best response here. Self-evident truths are defined by their needing no outside data to be true. Messing about with man's subjective failure to understand is irrelevant. All math is identity, at least if you understand what the "=" means. Man's use of math to dis-cover deeper self-evident truths is just pragmatic use of symbols with which to dis-cover the truths. Need we explain the etymological sources of the words "under-stand" and "dis-cover?" Truths precede man's ability to dis-cover them, both logically and chronologically, and, as another commenter added, these truths are more self-evident than the existence of matter. I believe God exists more than I believe I do....logically. One is necessary; the other is gratefully contingent.mugwump3
September 1, 2015
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Learned Hand: Now that we agree that some truths are self-evident, let’s apply the concept to a moral proposition. I am going to set out your answers to the math questions and then I am going to set out what I presume your answers to the moral questions would be. Consider the following proposition: 2+2=4. If you were asked whether the proposition is true, is there any possibility that you would get the answer wrong? LH’s Answer: No. Consider the following proposition: Torturing an infant for pleasure is evil. If you were asked whether the proposition is true, is there any possibility that you would get the answer wrong? LH’s Presumed Answer: No. Please answer these questions: (1) If someone were to say to you that the proposition 2+2=4 is false, would you would think their statement is absurd? (2) Can you even imagine a universe in which 2+2=4 is false? LH’s Answer: Yes and no. Please answer these questions: (1) If someone were to say to you that the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is evil” is false, would you would think their statement is absurd? (2) Can you even imagine a universe in which “torturing an infant for pleasure is evil” is false? LH’s Presumed Answer: Yes and no. Have I gotten any of your presumed answers wrong? If not, then you agree that the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is evil” is self-evidently true in exactly the same way you believe that the proposition 2+2=4 is self-evidently true. If I have gotten your presumed answers wrong, then please explain why you disagree.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Barry: Please answer these questions: (1) If someone were to say to you that the proposition 2+2=4 is false, would you would think their statement is absurd? (2) Can you even imagine a universe in which 2+2=4 is false? LH: Yes, and no.
I appreciate your candor and your succinct responses. We agree that any person of reasonable intelligence immediately understands that 2+2=4 is infallibly true. As SB says, it isn’t just that there is no good reason to doubt it. It would be irrational, absurd, and unthinkable to doubt that 2+2=4. You cannot possibly be wrong about it. In summary, you believe that 2+2=4 is a self-evident truth.
Your reference to Chesterton answers a lot of other questions I had, thank you.
You’re welcome. He has answered many of my questions over the years. Whenever I think I'm smart, I think about someone who is really smart like Chesterton (or Lewis) and I realize that in comparison to those greats, I am a babbling simpleton.
It seems that you agree that people can be mistaken about apparently self-evident facts (such as someone who makes a mistake solving a simple math problem). Can you distinguish between facts about which no error is possible, and ones where error is possible? And is it possible for that distinction to be in error?
No, by definition, a self-evident truth is immediately apprehended to be infallibly true merely by virtue of the fact that the observer understands it. Therefore, if a person understands a self-evidently true proposition at all, it is not possible for him to be in error about it.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Learned Hand
It seems that you agree that people can be mistaken about apparently self-evident facts (such as someone who makes a mistake solving a simple math problem). Can you distinguish between facts about which no error is possible, and ones where error is possible? And is it possible for that distinction to be in error?
Consider, "I think therefor I am" Over to you.Andre
September 1, 2015
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No, it is based on the self-evident principle that a part cannot be greater that the whole of which it is a part. Do you agree that this principle is self-evidently true? No, which is one reason I was trying to simplify the question. My immediate objection is that in the statement “2+(-2)+(-2)=-2”, the whole is less than one of its constituent parts. I don’t know much about mathematics, so I’m not sure if that’s a legitimate counter-example or not. It doesn’t apply to pizza, and I don’t think it’s a serious problem for your overall point. But it means when you back the pizza question out to a general principle, I have a question that keeps me from agreeing. Do you agree, for example, that it is absurd to suggest that a slice of pizza could contain more pepperoni than the whole pie? Do you, in other words, agree with the following proposition: It is self-evidently true that the whole pepperoni pizza (any pepperoni pizza) must contain at least as much or more pepperoni than any one of the slices? Yes, and yes, with the caveat that we’re talking about pepperoni, not abstractions. I could be persuaded it’s logically possible to prove or disprove that a whole must be greater than the sum of its parts, such as with negative numbers. This is one reason I suggested “A=A.” I think I’d say without reservation that’s a truth that can’t be proven. Do you also agree that you cannot possibly be wrong in making this judgment? Put another way, do you agree that you can have infallible certitude that you are right? The question can be answered with a simple yes or no. If the answer is no, please explain why you have any doubts. Yes, as for pizza. If we’re talking general concepts, well, see my thoughts above. So, my questions for you are: Can a self-evident truth be one that takes an adult of normal faculties some reasoning or experience to perceive? (Such as experience that ingrains an understanding of what 256x2 is.) Does “you cannot possibly be wrong about it” mean that you can’t make a type I error, a type II error, or both? Can you distinguish between facts about which no error is possible, and ones where error is possible? And is it possible for that distinction to be in error? I don't need a "yes or no" answer. I'd rather hear whatever you have to say.Learned Hand
September 1, 2015
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Please answer these questions: (1) If someone were to say to you that the proposition 2+2=4 is false, would you would think their statement is absurd? (2) Can you even imagine a universe in which 2+2=4 is false? Yes, and no. Your reference to Chesterton answers a lot of other questions I had, thank you. It seems that you agree that people can be mistaken about apparently self-evident facts (such as someone who makes a mistake solving a simple math problem). Can you distinguish between facts about which no error is possible, and ones where error is possible? And is it possible for that distinction to be in error?Learned Hand
September 1, 2015
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Learned Hand
I assume the pizza example is getting at asking whether A=A, or some other essential proposition. I’ll use it as a shorthand.
No, it is based on the self-evident principle that a part cannot be greater that the whole of which it is a part. Do you agree that this principle is self-evidently true?
Does being self-evidently true mean that something is logically proven, or merely that we have no good reason to doubt it?
A self-evident truth is one that is immediately understood to be infallibly true. It cannot be logically proven. If proof was necessary or even possible, then it would not be a self-evident proposition. A self-evident truth comes before proof, not after. It isn’t just that there is “no good reason” to doubt it. More to the point, it would be irrational, absurd, and unthinkable to doubt it. You cannot possibly be wrong about it. Do you agree, for example, that it is absurd to suggest that a slice of pizza could contain more pepperoni than the whole pie? Do you, in other words, agree with the following proposition: It is self-evidently true that the whole pepperoni pizza (any pepperoni pizza) must contain at least as much or more pepperoni than any one of the slices? Do you also agree that you cannot possibly be wrong in making this judgment? Put another way, do you agree that you can have infallible certitude that you are right? The question can be answered with a simple yes or no. If the answer is no, please explain why you have any doubts.
Let’s take this to the mathematical example.
Perhaps we can take that up later.StephenB
September 1, 2015
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LH
Is 1 a subset of 2, or is 2 a subset of 1? If all self-evident truths are a subset of the OMC, then 2+2=4 is an objective moral belief, right?
LH, read what set (1) is again carefully. It is a set of "those" [i.e., those moral principles] that are self-evident. 2+2=4 is is indeed self-evident. It is not a moral statement.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Barry: Consider the following proposition: 2+2=4. If you were asked whether the proposition is true, is there any possibility that you would get the answer wrong? LH: No . . . I acknowledge that no adult of normal faculties will get 2+2=4 wrong.
Progress. Now the next step. Please answer these questions: (1) If someone were to say to you that the proposition 2+2=4 is false, would you would think their statement is absurd? (2) Can you even imagine a universe in which 2+2=4 is false?
LH: Is the fact that object move in gravity self-evident, or merely intuitive?
Actually, this is a very good example. I can imagine a universe in which I dropped something and it did not fall to the ground. The operation of gravity is a matter of empirical observation. Propositions about gravity are not “necessary” truths in the same way that no circle can ever be square or 2+2=4. As Chesterton said:
[Natural law] is not a necessity, for though we can count on it happening practically, we have no right to say that it must always happen. It is no argument for unalterable law (as Huxley fancied) that we count on the ordinary course of things. We do not count on it; we bet on it.
Therefore, propositions about gravity are not self-evident. Any particular proposition may or may not be true. It is certainly not self-evident.
In other words, what’s the difference between a self-evident fact and an intuitive fact?
Chesterton described the difference very nicely. One is necessary. The other is not.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Perhaps the greatest irony of this whole discussion, given that it is primarily dealing with materialists and their objections to self-evident moral truths, is two-fold. First, consider that in many respects, philosophical arguments are simply plausibility comparisons. One argument/view is simply more plausible than another. Now, in terms of a plausibility comparison between “it is always and everywhere wrong and evil to torture a child for fun” and “materialism is true and thus it is not always wrong to torture a child for fun”, the former is light-years more plausible and certain than the latter. Any worldview that rejects that moral truth is infinitely less plausible than the moral truth itself. In fact, that moral truth is more plausible than the claim that “matter itself exists”. And so, the irony here is the following: the moment that I doubt the truth of that moral statement is the moment that I gain infinitely more reason to doubt the truth of materialism (or naturalism, to use a different name for it). Now the second great irony in hearing the materialist argue, in part, against self-evident truths, is that materialism, at its core, depends, in a certain way, on the idea of self-evidence. And not in the ways already mentioned—although in those as well—but rather in that the existence of matter itself is arguably supported by nothing but self-evidence. After all, what is the materialist’s proof or empirical evidence that matter actually exists? As Berkeley and others showed, not only is there nothing that can “prove” that matter exists, but there are actual good arguments against the existence of matter. And so, for the existence of matter, the materialist can offer, as inferential evidence or proof, nothing more than the person who says that “it is always wrong to torture a child for fun” can offer for his view. And remember, the burden of proof is on the materialist, for he asserts the existence of matter. And so, if you think yourself justified to rejecting the aforementioned moral claim, than you are doubly justified in rejecting the very existence of matter, and, in turn, in rejecting materialism. So, in rejecting the very moral claim that it must reject in order to be coherent, materialism simultaneously provides us with the very grounds to deny the existence of matter, and thus to deny materialism itself. Materialism, in essence, loses no matter which way it turns.RDM
September 1, 2015
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In UDLand, there seem to be two kinds of moral principles, (1) those that are self-evident and (2) those that are included in the OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE.
I can’t imagine why you would suggest that (1) and (2) are mutually exclusive. It should be obvious that (1)is a subset of (2).
Is 1 a subset of 2, or is 2 a subset of 1? If all self-evident truths are a subset of the OMC, then 2+2=4 is an objective moral belief, right?Learned Hand
September 1, 2015
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Cross, I’d rather not derail the thread; I’ve written my position elsewhere. I realize there's a lot to dig through to find it, and sorry about that, but I've got to plead limited time.Learned Hand
September 1, 2015
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Barry, Consider the following proposition: 2+2=4. If you were asked whether the proposition is true, is there any possibility that you would get the answer wrong? I hope not! No, in all seriousness. But what does that have to do with my comment? I acknowledge that no adult of normal faculties will get 2+2=4 wrong. That doesn’t make it self-evident if the calculation is intuitive; the identity still rests ultimately on the calculation. I think. I can’t prove it. If I drop a ball from my hand, I know instantly it will fall, and I will never be wrong about that. Is the fact that object move in gravity self-evident, or merely intuitive? In other words, what’s the difference between a self-evident fact and an intuitive fact? (ETA: my answer assumes that you agree that something which must be calculated is not self-evident. Your responses above seemed to indicate that, but I don't think you've said one way or the other. SteRusJohn above seems to take the position that all math problems are self-evident.)Learned Hand
September 1, 2015
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It seems to me, there is some confusion above as to what the "self" in self-evident is referencing. It is not a reference to the person contemplating the truth value of a proposition. It is referencing the proposition itself. The proposition contains all the information necessary to determine the truth or falsity of the proposition. There is no need to consider Lemma, Fermats and Fibanocci, Oh my. (See link in #2) That is as true of 98/14=7 as it is of 2+2=4. If you wish to engage the proposition or not, whether you care to ruminate about it or not, whether you understand any math lingo or not, both of those propositions contain all the information needed to determine and know their truthfulness. They are self-evidently true. Their truthfulness does not depend on such extraneous things as the day of the week or the color of the morning sky or your education level. All the relevant information is invoked by the symbols for 2-ness, 4-ness, addition and equality. If you do not understand the symbols you can not know if the proposition 2+2=4 is true or false. Because you, yourself, do not know the truthfulness does not change the truthfulness of the proposition. It still contains all the information needed to determine its truthfulness. More than that. It is still true. If you do understand the symbols, the proposition's symbols convey all the information needed for you to know with certainty that the proposition is true and not false. The proposition is self-evidently true. For some propositions, some just can't (think) or won't (consider) to go where the self-evidence leads. Where does it lead? In the larger context of these OPs, it leads to- The killing of the unborn for the convenience of the mother and the financial gain of the doctors and staff is evil, evil, evil. StephenSteRusJon
September 1, 2015
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KF, In your post #106.daveS
September 1, 2015
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DS, in 86, BA used || + || –> ||||, where is your case? KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2015
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KF, I think it was two and five in the question. I forgot to explain my reasoning, but the inclusion-exclusion rule tells us the cardinality would be seven, assuming no intersection of the original sets.daveS
September 1, 2015
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In UDLand, there seem to be two kinds of moral principles, (1) those that are self-evident and (2) those that are included in the OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE.
I can’t imagine why you would suggest that (1) and (2) are mutually exclusive. It should be obvious that (1)is a subset of (2).
I ask, because if all moral principles are self-evident, an OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE is superfluous. But if no moral principles are self-evident, then maybe we need that OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE.
Not everything having to do with morality is self-evident. Some things are. Again, (1) is a subset of (2).
We need guidance as to which moral judgments fit into each category.
We do not need guidance about the matters that fit within the "self-evident" category. That is what it means for them to be SELF-evident. For example, do you, DK, need to consult with anyone – anyone at all – about whether the Holocaust was evil? Of course not. You know that. You needed no guidance from anyone to understand that the wanton murder of 18 million innocent men, women and children was evil. DK, you are deeply confused about these matters. I am glad I could help you sort them out.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Barry wrote:
Barry: It is self-evident that torturing an infant for pleasure is evil.
I replied:
One less thing for THE OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE to address.
Barry then replied:
Thank you for being succinct, but you have have overdone it a tad. Because I have no idea what you are talking about.
This is what I meant: If a moral judgment is self-evident, that moral judgment doesn't need to be ascribed to the OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE. In UDLand, there seem to be two kinds of moral principles, (1) those that are self-evident and (2) those that are included in the OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE. I ask, because if all moral principles are self-evident, an OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE is superfluous. But if no moral principles are self-evident, then maybe we need that OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE. We need guidance as to which moral judgments fit into each category. Hope that helps.Daniel King
September 1, 2015
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DS, The joining -- addition -- of a three set and a two set gives a seven-set? I think some wires got crossed there. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2015
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daveS
I don’t know. If there’s disagreement among the experts on this question, then I don’t think I can make a convincing case either way.
So if some experts in say, eugenics, said that Jews should be tossed into ovens and other experts said no they should not be tossed into ovens, you would be stymied? God help us.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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KF @ 106, The union? Assuming all seven elements are distinct, then the cardinality would be seven. As long as I'm not making an error, it cannot be any other number.daveS
September 1, 2015
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