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“Self-Evident” Does Not Mean “Apparent”

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Many of our materialist friends do not seem to know the difference between the epistemological categories of “self-evident” and “apparent.” I am providing this primer on the difference to help them understand.

Here is a typical exchange where a materialist makes this category error.

Barry: It is self-evident that torturing an infant for pleasure is evil.

Materialist: Yeah, lots of things that have seemed self-evident have turned out to be false. For example, people used to believe it is self-evident that the earth is flat, and they were dead wrong.

Where has M gone wrong? First, M has gone wrong on the basic factual premise of his comparison. The ancients knew the earth was round and even measured its circumference. Great discussion here.

But the fact that materialists continue to spew this factually incorrect chestnut over and over after repeated correction is secondary for our purposes today. More importantly, M has failed to understand the epistemological difference between “apparent” and “self-evident.” “Apparent” means “according to appearances.” M has asserted that it is apparent to many people that the earth is flat. That appearance is false. And by equivocating between “apparent” and “self-evident” he attempts to prove that some self-evident propositions are false.

Nonsense. In the sense we are using it, “self-evident” is not a synonym for “apparent.” Instead, a self-evident proposition is defined as a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning without proof. In that sense, is the proposition “the earth is flat” a self-evident proposition? Let’s see.

P1: The earth is flat.

P2: How do you know?

P1: Just go outside and look at it.

What has P1 just done? He has appealed to evidence in order to prove his statement. That very appeal means that his statement cannot be considered self-evident. Go back to our definition. A self-evident claim is one that we know to be true without proof.

An example of a self-evident claim is that 2+2=4. I cannot “prove” that 2+2=4. But does the fact that I cannot prove the proposition mean that I must conclude it is false? Of course not. I know the proposition to be true without proof merely because I understand what it means. Another way of looking at it is that I know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd in the sense that it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true I would have to reject rationality itself.

Unlike the statement “the earth is flat,” the statement 2+2=4 is not merely apparently true, it is necessarily true in any rational universe.

We have a clue that we are not talking about a self-evident truth when a proposition is appended to the word “believe.” Yes, people believe self-evident truths in the sense that they must necessarily accede to the fact that they are true. But people do not “believe” self-evident truths in the sense that they have evaluated the evidence and reached a conclusion they think is justified. Self-evident propositions are not subject to proof or disproof by empirical evidence. They are necessarily true. A person’s belief about a self-evident truth is irrelevant and is therefore rarely expressed. Thus, when one talks about a proposition that is either “believed” or “disbelieved” it is a clue that the proposition is not a proposition of self-evident truth.

This brings me back to my original statement. Numerous materialists with whom I have argued have denied that the statement “torturing an infant for pleasure is evil” is self-evidently true. They always agree that it is true. They never agree that it is self-evidently, necessarily true.

And I always ask them this question: Please describe the circumstances under which the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is true. I say we can know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd because it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true we would have to reject rationality itself. The same is true of all self-evident propositions. The negation of any self-evident truth is absurd and rationality itself must be rejected in order to accept such a negation. I say the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is just such an absurd negation of a self-evident truth. You, materialist, say it is not. Please support your assertion.

Dear readers, note that my challenge is extremely risky, epistemologically speaking, because even a single instance where it is met will shatter my project into a million pieces.

Happily, no one has ever come remotely close to answering this challenge. And it is easy to see why.

Comments
" I think Christian theology is extremely unlikely to be true" Funny considering the fact that I know, via personal experience and evidence, for 100% certainty that Christianity is true.bornagain77
September 1, 2015
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KF, Do you agree with Learned Hand at #24, that there is no clear line between self-evident and non-self-evident statements concerning integer arithmetic?daveS
September 1, 2015
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to Barry: As I said, I think Christian theology is extremely unlikely to be true, based on all I know about religion in general and Christianity in particular. For all practical purposes, I rule it out as a possibility worth my consideration. As Dylan said in "High Water", "You can't open up your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view." As an agnostic, I am willing to live with uncertainty and understand the limitations of my knowledge, but as an existentialist, I have to make choices to live by, based as best I can on what I know, and as a Taoist sympathizer I need to balance the provisional uncertainty of belief with the certainty inherent in action.Aleta
September 1, 2015
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Ok KF to the original Pons asinorum: is the statement that the angles opposite the equal sides of an isosceles triangle are themselves equal self-evidently true? Is it provable? Does it require proof? If I merely say that it that statement is true (and eliminate self-evidently), what is lost in the field of geometry?REC
September 1, 2015
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REC:
self-evident is what you learned at a young age, or believe firmly?
Predictable, predictably wrong. I suggest, cf 1 above: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/self-evident-does-not-mean-apparent/#comment-578142 The pons asinorum effect applies, i.e. there is a threshold of experience of the world to understand enough to see what a claim means and why on what it means it is and must be true on pain of patent absurdity. SETs are foundational, some of them are learned early indeed but many lie beyond issues that will not be crossed for any number of reasons, ideological indoctrination and commitment to the contrary being important cases. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2015
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as to:
"I am not 100% certain about anything metaphysical"
if you are 100% certain about you not being 100% certain then there is at least one metaphysical assumption that you are 100% certain about. :) Myself, I consider your position to be the same ole hyper-selective skepticism that Charles Darwin himself employed whenever he was faced with the reasonableness of God: i.e. Charles Darwin’s infamous ‘horrid doubt’, contrary to popular opinion, was used in a hyper-selective fashion. Nancy Pearcey goes over the fallacious nature in which Charles Darwin employed his 'horrid doubt' here:
podcast - Is Human Reason Reliable? Interview with Nancy Pearcey (Darwin's 'horrid doubt') http://www.discovery.org/multimedia/audio/2015/07/finding-truth-interview-with-nancy-pearcey/ Why Evolutionary Theory Cannot Survive Itself – Nancy Pearcey – March 8, 2015 Excerpt: Darwin’s Selective Skepticism People are sometimes under the impression that Darwin himself recognized the problem. They typically cite Darwin’s famous “horrid doubt” passage where he questions whether the human mind can be trustworthy if it is a product of evolution: “With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy.” But, of course, Darwin’s theory itself was a “conviction of man’s mind.” So why should it be “at all trustworthy”? Surprisingly, however, Darwin never confronted this internal contradiction in his theory. Why not? Because he expressed his “horrid doubt” selectively — only when considering the case for a Creator. From time to time, Darwin admitted that he still found the idea of God persuasive. He once confessed his “inward conviction … that the Universe is not the result of chance.” It was in the next sentence that he expressed his “horrid doubt.” So the “conviction” he mistrusted was his lingering conviction that the universe is not the result of chance. In another passage Darwin admitted, “I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man.” Again, however, he immediately veered off into skepticism: “But then arises the doubt — can the mind of man, which has, as I fully believe, been developed from a mind as low as that possessed by the lowest animal, be trusted when it draws such grand conclusions?” That is, can it be trusted when it draws “grand conclusions” about a First Cause? Perhaps the concept of God is merely an instinct programmed into us by natural selection, Darwin added, like a monkey’s “instinctive fear and hatred of a snake.” In short, it was on occasions when Darwin’s mind led him to a theistic conclusion that he dismissed the mind as untrustworthy. He failed to recognize that, to be logically consistent, he needed to apply the same skepticism to his own theory. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/why_evolutionar094171.html
Moreover, when the 'internal contradiction' in Darwin's theory is examined, it is found that the contradiction does indeed lead to epistemological failure:
Why No One (Can) Believe Atheism/Naturalism to be True (Plantinga’s Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism) - video Excerpt: "Since we are creatures of natural selection, we cannot totally trust our senses. Evolution only passes on traits that help a species survive, and not concerned with preserving traits that tell a species what is actually true about life." Richard Dawkins - quoted from "The God Delusion" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4QFsKevTXs Quote: "In evolutionary games we put truth (true perception) on the stage and it dies. And in genetic algorithms it (true perception) never gets on the stage" Donald Hoffman PhD. - Consciousness and The Interface Theory of Perception - 7:19 to 9:20 minute mark - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dqDP34a-epI#t=439 Why Evolutionary Theory Cannot Survive Itself - Nancy Pearcey - March 8, 2015 Excerpt: Steven Pinker writes, "Our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes the truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not." The upshot is that survival is no guarantee of truth. If survival is the only standard, we can never know which ideas are true and which are adaptive but false. To make the dilemma even more puzzling, evolutionists tell us that natural selection has produced all sorts of false concepts in the human mind. Many evolutionary materialists maintain that free will is an illusion, consciousness is an illusion, even our sense of self is an illusion -- and that all these false ideas were selected for their survival value. So how can we know whether the theory of evolution itself is one of those false ideas? The theory undercuts itself.,,, Of course, the atheist pursuing his research has no choice but to rely on rationality, just as everyone else does. The point is that he has no philosophical basis for doing so. Only those who affirm a rational Creator have a basis for trusting human rationality. The reason so few atheists and materialists seem to recognize the problem is that, like Darwin, they apply their skepticism selectively. They apply it to undercut only ideas they reject, especially ideas about God. They make a tacit exception for their own worldview commitments. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/why_evolutionar094171.html
In fact, the epistemological failure inherent in evolutionary naturalism goes much deeper than illustrated by Plantinga's argument in that both free will and consciousness themselves become illusions (i.e. under naturalism it is not just perceptions that are illusions):
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant:,,) Read more here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0 Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html (1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain. (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality. per Box UD
bornagain77
September 1, 2015
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Aleta @ 64:
Those perspectives which attempt to address those mysteries as if we do know, including all religious explanations, are things we have made up
Aleta @ 71:
I don’t rule out theism as a possibility.
Yes, you do. You just did. Until you got caught being irrational. Then you backtracked with the whole "I don't always include disclaimers" nonsense. Sigh.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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I don't rule out theism as a possibility. I am not 100% certain about anything metaphysical, but there is no way to constantly qualify everything I say about what I believe with a disclaimer to that effect. But given how much I know about religion in general, and how unlikely Christian dogma appears to me to be, I see little reason to entertain it as a possibility. Being an agnostic doesn't mean that I don't have strong beliefs about things based on all my education and experience - taking together everything I know about the world, theistic religious explanations seem very unlikely.Aleta
September 1, 2015
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Aleta raises a fair point in 68. Why am I not content to prove them wrong? Why do I go on to point out that they are foolish or (as is often the case) evil? I answered that question at 63.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Aleta,
Why should I bother, I wonder?
Oh, I dunno, to prove me wrong? BTW, here's a hint. Trying to argue that 2+2+4 is not self-evidently true won't help in that project.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Barry, it's hard to want to reply to someone who calls me a fool, which I am not. Why should I bother, I wonder?Aleta
September 1, 2015
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Aleta,
I believe strongly that there are principles embedded in our human nature to which we can refer as we make those choices.
Finally, something we can agree on. The only difference is that I am more open-minded than you regarding the possible source of those principles and how they were embedded. You appoint yourself arbiter of the existence of God and close your mind to any possibility that you may be wrong. And you accuse me of lacking humility. Staggering.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Aleta,
The neo-Taoist part refers to my “belief” (qualified by my agnosticism) that there is likely to be a set of principles (metaphysical forces, if you will) that provide the dynamics that inform the structure and motion of the world . . .
But you are absolutely certain the Christian God is not behind those metaphysical forces. You seem to have a strange combination of agnosticism and dogmatic certainty.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Aleta,
Those perspectives which attempt to address those mysteries as if we do know, including all religious explanations, are things we have made up.
But wait a minute. You just got through telling me, and I quote, "in respect to the ultimate nature of the world, including whatever might exist beyond/behind/embedded in the world we experience, 'I don’t know . . ." But now you are telling me that you do know something about that with apparently absolute certainty, to wit, whatever happened God didn't do it. Contradict yourself much?Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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When I described myself as a "militant agnostic existentialist neo-Taoist sympathizer", StephenB writes,
I thank you for disclosing that portion, (and I appreciate the humor inherent in the “sympathizer” attachment [that was cute]) but it tells me nothing about your orientation to matter. Do you accept a realm of being (spirit) that transcend matter or not? If not, then you are, among other things, a materialist.
Actually, my description does tell you something about my orientation towards matter, if I unpack some of the understandings that I attach to it. First, the "militant agnostic" parts means that, in respect to the ultimate nature of the world, including whatever might exist beyond/behind/embedded in the world we experience, "I don't know, and you don't know either." Human beings can't know. We are limited creatures, and no matter how much we might learn through empirical investigation, there will always be mysteries. Those perspectives which attempt to address those mysteries as if we do know, including all religious explanations, are things we have made up - rationalizations, to try to answer the unanswerable. Second, the neo-Taoist "sympathizer" part: I wasn't trying to be cute with "sympathizer". Given my miltant agnosticism, I certainly can't say that I believe that a neo-Taoist perspective is "true". It is the perspective, however, that makes the most sense to me - that appeals the most to the whole complex of my philosophical, religious, and scientific understandings. The neo-Taoist part refers to my "belief" (qualified by my agnosticism) that there is likely to be a set of principles (metaphysical forces, if you will) that provide the dynamics that inform the structure and motion of the world, that the activity of those principles is beyond what we can actually empirically experience (we just experience the effects), and that the overriding principle is that of "complementary duality" - the push and pull of forces which help each other bring about their effects. So to be specific, this view would certain hold that there is something more than matter and energy - something underlying matter and energy, but that it would not be reasonable to call this "spirit" or "being" if that implies a conscious, willful entity of some sort. The existentialist part means that, again, given my militant agnosticism, that as human beings we are "doomed to make choices" (as some existentialist philosopher said), but I believe strongly that there are principles embedded in our human nature to which we can refer as we make those choices. Also, the Taoist part implies that moderation and balance in all things is necessary, and that all black-and-white dichotomies which don't acknowledge complementary duality are wrong. So, short answer: I am not a "dedicated materialist", but to whatever extent I think some non-material aspect of the world might exist, I think it is likely to be in the form of metaphysical principles, not anything resembling a spiritual "being".Aleta
September 1, 2015
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To those who think I am too rough on REC and Aleta, let me say this. I despise their efforts to undermine rationality itself. If we were merely engaged in an academic discussion with no real world consequences, I wouldn't bother dignifying their lunacy with a response. But we are not. Dear readers, have you ever wondered why there is a nearly one-to-one correlation between those who would attempt to argue with the proposition that 2+2=4 is a self-evident truth and those who would say that it is OK to kill little boys and girls, chop their bodies into pieces and sell the pieces like so much meat? The same spirit animates both assertions.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Nice to see that REC and Barry agree on something. :-)Bob O'H
September 1, 2015
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REC:
So self-evident is what you learned at a young age, or believe firmly?
Sigh. I have already addressed both of these issues. Do you think repeating them after their refutation gives them additional force? REC, let me give you a clue: The ability to keep typing is not the same as making a rational argument, especially after what you've just typed has been addressed.
Barry: “a self-evident proposition is defined as a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning without proof.” REC: I’m not sure this is true of 2+2=4. A child (or according to some anthropologists, someone from a culture that counts 1,2, many) might take 2 sets of 2 objects, and see that together that are now 4. Always.
Are you suggesting that the truth of the proposition 2+2=4 hangs in suspension until some child grows up to understand it? Are you suggesting that before any human walked this planet to understand mathematics that 2+2=4 was not yet true?
As we grow past this empirical demonstration, it becomes apparent to us that these mathematical truths exist.
There is that word "apparent." Are you suggesting that it merely appears on the surface of things that 2+2=4? If not, then why did you use the word "apparent"?
But what does arguing this truth is “self evident” vs. apparent or empirical get us? I guess it is a convenient tool to squash discussion.
What does self-evident truth get us? Why rationality itself REC. If you don't understand why that is true let me know and I will explain it to you, but 30 seconds of thought will get you there. I will understand if you don't put in the effort though, since materialists are not big on the whole rationality thing anyway, and thinking is hard work, and 30 seconds is a long time. Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Aleta
I did say, or at least imply, that you lack humility because you are so certain that you are right, and because you believe that any differing opinion is “insane denial.”
Yes, I am absolutely certain that it is self-evident that 2+2=4. And for that I lack humility says Aleta. Let me tell you something else about which I am certain, Aleta. You are a fool.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Aleta
To StephenB: I am a militant agnostic existentialist neo-Taoist sympathizer. :-)
I thank you for disclosing that portion, (and I appreciate the humor inherent in the "sympathizer" attachment [that was cute]) but it tells me nothing about your orientation to matter. Do you accept a realm of being (spirit) that transcend matter or not? If not, then you are, among other things, a materialist.
Out of curiosity, how would you describe yourself in a few words?
I am a Catholic moderate dualist (not a Cartesian substance dualist).StephenB
September 1, 2015
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So self-evident is what you learned at a young age, or believe firmly? Barry: "a self-evident proposition is defined as a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning without proof." I'm not sure this is true of 2+2=4. A child (or according to some anthropologists, someone from a culture that counts 1,2, many) might take 2 sets of 2 objects, and see that together that are now 4. Always. As we grow past this empirical demonstration, it becomes apparent to us that these mathematical truths exist. But what does arguing this truth is "self evident" vs. apparent or empirical get us? I guess it is a convenient tool to squash discussion.REC
September 1, 2015
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Aleta Your example of 2+2=4 as a representation of material events seemed good to me. But the use of the term "evidence" is the problem. The two rocks added to two rocks is not "evidence" of the formula. The formula is symbolic for what is observed. Adding two rocks to two rocks gives more than two rocks. The number that results is four. This is self-evident. The reason it's not evidence based is that 2+2+4 is the law of identification. As you said, we define the symbols and they represent something self-evident. It's by the nature of reality. Positive finite quantities added increase by a positive finite amount. That's the self-evident truth. We don't look for "evidence" to support that. Otherwise, we would have to check all the positive finite quantities of things with the belief that at some point, the addition of the same would not be an increase. The law of identification is easier. 2 = 2. That is self-evident. It can't be proven. It's not evidence-based. 2+2=4 is merely an extrapolation of 2=2.
There are problems/mysteries about both the idea that abstract quantities have a non-material, pre-existing reality separate from the material world that somehow we are able to apprehend (your position) and the idea that abstract understandings are built up as representations from experience with the material world as it appears to us (the position I am trying to describe).
Yes, you could say that an abstraction like 2+2=4 is built from material representations. However, the problem is with something like the square root of 2.Silver Asiatic
September 1, 2015
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Aleta
Given that you guys dismiss one entire philosophical perspective on the nature of knowledge as stupid, insane and irrational, and are entirely 100% certain that the perspective you hold is true, discussion about these issues is a bit difficult and unproductive. There are problems/mysteries about both the idea that abstract quantities have a non-material, pre-existing reality separate from the material world that somehow we are able to apprehend (your position) and the idea that abstract understandings are built up as representations from experience with the material world as it appears to us (the position I am trying to describe). This distinction, and related issues, is a universal, perennial philosophical dilemma that many great thinkers have pondered for centuries. I don’t believe that we can know the truth of the matter, but I do think it’s reasonable to have a balanced view of the strengths and weaknesses of each view, and to have some humility about the nature of our understanding.
Can I take all this rambling to mean that you cannot answer my refutation @49. Or, would you like to argue that a slice of pizza can contain more pepperoni than the whole pie. Also, just so that you will know, Humility = bringing your desires into conformity with the truth. Pride = twisting the truth so that it conforms to your desires.StephenB
September 1, 2015
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To StephenB: I am a militant agnostic existentialist neo-Taoist sympathizer. :-) Out of curiosity, how would you describe yourself in a few words?Aleta
September 1, 2015
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Barry, I did not say that 2 + 2 = 4 was subject to empirical invalidation. I also did not accuse you of not being reasonable, other than in your excessive certainty about being right. I did say, or at least imply, that you lack humility because you are so certain that you are right, and because you believe that any differing opinion is "insane denial."Aleta
September 1, 2015
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For those who do not speak materialist-ese, I will translate Aleta's comment at 51 into English:
I can come into the UD combox and make literally insane statements and imply that 2+2=4 is subject to empirical invalidation. I will refuse to respond to counter-arguments. Instead, I will accuse my opponents of not being reasonable and having insufficient humility for clinging to rationality.
Aleta has slipped into insane denial mode. There is no point in continuing the discussion with him.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Aleta
My statement about not being a “dedicated materialist” was because I don’t want to be mis-labeled.
What do you call someone who always takes the materialist side of an argument and never takes the opposite side? What label should we apply to you? Could we say that you are a Materialist sympathizer and enabler who does not want a label attached to the behavior? Or, if not that, what word or phrase would best describe your metaphysical world view. (Notice, that I said word or phrase, which does not mean three or four paragraphs).if you cannot summarize your world view in a word or two--or maybe three, then you don't really know what you are.StephenB
September 1, 2015
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Given that you guys dismiss one entire philosophical perspective on the nature of knowledge as stupid, insane and irrational, and are entirely 100% certain that the perspective you hold is true, discussion about these issues is a bit difficult and unproductive. There are problems/mysteries about both the idea that abstract quantities have a non-material, pre-existing reality separate from the material world that somehow we are able to apprehend (your position) and the idea that abstract understandings are built up as representations from experience with the material world as it appears to us (the position I am trying to describe). This distinction, and related issues, is a universal, perennial philosophical dilemma that many great thinkers have pondered for centuries. I don't believe that we can know the truth of the matter, but I do think it's reasonable to have a balanced view of the strengths and weaknesses of each view, and to have some humility about the nature of our understanding.Aleta
September 1, 2015
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Barry
nominalism has driven many people insane
. Yes, Barry, and we could also include that theme with your recent series of posts: Nominalism makes people stupid.StephenB
September 1, 2015
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Aleta
No, the fact that Barry did not appeal to material evidence could be because Barry might be wrong that material evidence has nothing to do with it.
No, it could not be the case that Barry is wrong about that. It is not possible for material evidence to inform a self-evident truth because the latter is prior both logically and chronologically.
This is not a matter of me not understanding – this is a matter of me disagreeing with you and Barry about the fundamental relationship between the material world and our knowledge of it.
No, it is not a matter of your disagreement with Barry. The problem is your lack of understanding. A slice of pizza cannot contain more pepperoni than the whole pie. It is self-evidently true. Material evidence has nothing to do with it. Even if I had never observed, sliced, or tasted a pizza, I would know that it is true.StephenB
September 1, 2015
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