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“Self-Evident” Does Not Mean “Apparent”

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Many of our materialist friends do not seem to know the difference between the epistemological categories of “self-evident” and “apparent.” I am providing this primer on the difference to help them understand.

Here is a typical exchange where a materialist makes this category error.

Barry: It is self-evident that torturing an infant for pleasure is evil.

Materialist: Yeah, lots of things that have seemed self-evident have turned out to be false. For example, people used to believe it is self-evident that the earth is flat, and they were dead wrong.

Where has M gone wrong? First, M has gone wrong on the basic factual premise of his comparison. The ancients knew the earth was round and even measured its circumference. Great discussion here.

But the fact that materialists continue to spew this factually incorrect chestnut over and over after repeated correction is secondary for our purposes today. More importantly, M has failed to understand the epistemological difference between “apparent” and “self-evident.” “Apparent” means “according to appearances.” M has asserted that it is apparent to many people that the earth is flat. That appearance is false. And by equivocating between “apparent” and “self-evident” he attempts to prove that some self-evident propositions are false.

Nonsense. In the sense we are using it, “self-evident” is not a synonym for “apparent.” Instead, a self-evident proposition is defined as a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning without proof. In that sense, is the proposition “the earth is flat” a self-evident proposition? Let’s see.

P1: The earth is flat.

P2: How do you know?

P1: Just go outside and look at it.

What has P1 just done? He has appealed to evidence in order to prove his statement. That very appeal means that his statement cannot be considered self-evident. Go back to our definition. A self-evident claim is one that we know to be true without proof.

An example of a self-evident claim is that 2+2=4. I cannot “prove” that 2+2=4. But does the fact that I cannot prove the proposition mean that I must conclude it is false? Of course not. I know the proposition to be true without proof merely because I understand what it means. Another way of looking at it is that I know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd in the sense that it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true I would have to reject rationality itself.

Unlike the statement “the earth is flat,” the statement 2+2=4 is not merely apparently true, it is necessarily true in any rational universe.

We have a clue that we are not talking about a self-evident truth when a proposition is appended to the word “believe.” Yes, people believe self-evident truths in the sense that they must necessarily accede to the fact that they are true. But people do not “believe” self-evident truths in the sense that they have evaluated the evidence and reached a conclusion they think is justified. Self-evident propositions are not subject to proof or disproof by empirical evidence. They are necessarily true. A person’s belief about a self-evident truth is irrelevant and is therefore rarely expressed. Thus, when one talks about a proposition that is either “believed” or “disbelieved” it is a clue that the proposition is not a proposition of self-evident truth.

This brings me back to my original statement. Numerous materialists with whom I have argued have denied that the statement “torturing an infant for pleasure is evil” is self-evidently true. They always agree that it is true. They never agree that it is self-evidently, necessarily true.

And I always ask them this question: Please describe the circumstances under which the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is true. I say we can know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd because it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true we would have to reject rationality itself. The same is true of all self-evident propositions. The negation of any self-evident truth is absurd and rationality itself must be rejected in order to accept such a negation. I say the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is just such an absurd negation of a self-evident truth. You, materialist, say it is not. Please support your assertion.

Dear readers, note that my challenge is extremely risky, epistemologically speaking, because even a single instance where it is met will shatter my project into a million pieces.

Happily, no one has ever come remotely close to answering this challenge. And it is easy to see why.

Comments
Barry @ 100, I don't know. If there's disagreement among the experts on this question, then I don't think I can make a convincing case either way.daveS
September 1, 2015
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Andre, you cannot actually in praxis abandon the LOI, LNC and LEM, just, you can refuse to acknowledge them when they are inconvenient. Or, you can be confused, but they are laws of reality before ever being formulated in words. To communicate there must be distinct symbols forming a definite code, for just one instance. As we see in the very posts trying to deny such laws. The squiggles, the observations and so on of Quantum physics pivot on those same laws every time someone tries to use that to suggest otherwise. And much more. But ideology can make us cling to absurdity. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2015
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DS, Take a two set and a five set, then join them forming a composite set -- and that is the meaning of that little arrow. What is its cardinality? Can it be other than it is, why or why not? KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2015
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LH @ 103 "Everyone agrees that that’s evil." I actually haven't seen them saying that. So are you saying that morally speaking, some things are evil and are self-evidently so? There is self-evident good and evil, true and false, a moral standard that is built in?Cross
September 1, 2015
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LH @ 103: Consider the following proposition: 2+2=4. If you were asked whether the proposition is true, is there any possibility that you would get the answer wrong?Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Everyone agrees that that's evil. As Barry acknowledges in the OP. I think a conversation about how to define, determine self-evident truths is interesting. (ETA: if for no other reason, than because I still don't understand how to exclude error from that determination. And if our conclusions about a self-evident truth can be in error, we're one giant step closer to living in a subjectivist world anyway.)Learned Hand
September 1, 2015
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Here we are at post 101 and the materialists that hang out here are still arguing maths and ignoring the point about self-evident thruth. Just to remind you: Barry: It is self-evident that torturing an infant for pleasure is evil. Anyone going to address this self-evident truth or are you stuck on the math? You are making Barry's point as usual, please try harder.Cross
September 1, 2015
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SB, Sorry for the delay in answering your question—busy couple of days. The amount of pepperoni in a whole pizza is equal to or greater than the amount found in one of the slices. [a] Is this statement self-evidently true? Yes or no. [b] If it is self-evidently true, can I reliably draw conclusions about other truths without appealing to empirical evidence of any kind? Yes or no. I assume the pizza example is getting at asking whether A=A, or some other essential proposition. I’ll use it as a shorthand. Does being self-evidently true mean that something is logically proven, or merely that we have no good reason to doubt it? That's a serious question, not a rhetorical one. If the latter, then yes. I don’t doubt it, and can’t think of any case or reason that would cause me to. If the former, though, then no. It would assume that fundamental assumptions can be proven. I don't think that's the case, as a matter of logic. They’re assumptions, not amenable to proof. (They can be objectively demonstrated, though, which is an interesting difference between basic logical notions and the moral beliefs you describe as self-evident.) So while I don't doubt that A=A, I don't think it's proven--or that it proves itself. I'm not a philosopher, and would be interested in any reading you'd recommend (although I can't promise I could get to it soon). Let’s take this to the mathematical example. I tried to ask some questions earlier to better understand the proposition. Barry took it with his usual grace, so I don’t really have any answers. I have to infer, therefore, that it is your position (or at least his) that something is not self-evident if it has to be calculated, but is self-evident if the answer is obvious without calculating it. I'm not convinced that 2+2 is fundamentally different from 952+952. I think they're essentially the thing, different only in scale. The bigger number takes a rational calculation, while the smaller is easy enough for us to calculate based on our long lifetimes of experience seeing 2 and 2 equal 4. But underlying that knowledge is the calculation. If 2+2 couldn't be calculated, I don't think it would be proven--and if it's necessary to be able to calculate it to prove it, then it isn't self-evident. There is additionally an obvious grey area, at least, in which error is possible. Moreover, error is possible in determining what’s in and what’s outside of the grey area. I often get tripped up by the captcha on this site, when I think the answer to an arithmetic problem is very obvious and then have it rubbed in my face that 6*7 is not, in fact, 35. (I don’t know why that one always gets me.) My confidence is sometimes misplaced. Is yours?Learned Hand
September 1, 2015
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daveS
As you mentioned above, what is self-evident to some may not be so to others, depending on education and background.
That is true, but it does not get you off the hook. I'm asking you daveS, with your education and background. Is 2+2=4 self-evidently true?Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Some things are self-evident or we would not exist in a noise-less, imageless, tasteless, non-odorus, textureless, non-informational void. Andrewasauber
September 1, 2015
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What can I say? I'm no philosopher, and not all philosophers agree that self-evident propositions exist. If there are such things, 2 + 2 = 4 would be a likely candidate, I suppose. Edit: As you mentioned above, what is self-evident to some may not be so to others, depending on education and background.daveS
September 1, 2015
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daveS @ 96,
AFAIK, 2 + 2 = 4 could very well be a self-evident truth.
I assume "AFAIK" means "as far as I know." If that is the case, you should know that it is in the nature of self-evident truth that putting the qualifiers "AFAIK" and "could very well be" in front of the self-evident truth MYLLAI. "MYLLAI" for those who don't know, means "makes you look like an idiot."Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Barry @ 92, AFAIK, 2 + 2 = 4 could very well be a self-evident truth.daveS
September 1, 2015
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Andre @ 93:
Why has the world abandoned Aristotle’s laws of thought? It puzzles me greatly.
Oh, the answer to that one is easy enough. Because they stand as barriers to the unfettered autonomous will. See my comment at 63.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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SB @ 91:
or those who bristle at the prospect of being called [idiots and liars] . . .
SB, you are as gentle as a kitten compared to Avicenna:
Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.
Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Why has the world abandoned Aristotle's laws of thought? It puzzles me greatly.Andre
September 1, 2015
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daveS, I am confused. You say you don't deny that self-evident truth exists. Are you saying that 2+2=4 just isn't one of them?Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Aleta
But given how much I know about religion in general, and how unlikely Christian dogma appears to me to be, I see little reason to entertain it as a possibility. Being an agnostic doesn’t mean that I don’t have strong beliefs about things based on all my education and experience – taking together everything I know about the world, theistic religious explanations seem very unlikely.
If you are uncertain about self-evident truths, then you are confessing, unwittingly, that you are not capable of rational thought. This is not just some idle accusation. All thought and all logic is based on the recognition that self-evident truths serve as the foundation for logical thinking. It isn't just the case that a rational person "assumes" the law of non-contradiction--he knows that it is true-- without a doubt. So it is with the proposition that 2 +2 is 4. So it is with the proposition that a slice of pizza weighs less than the whole pie. I know these things with absolute certainty and certitude. Further, I hold that anyone who does not know it with absolute certitude, or claims not to, is either an idiot or a liar. For those who bristle at the prospect of being called by those names, I would say this: Stop being idiots and liars.StephenB
September 1, 2015
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Barry, I'd have to first ask what the meaning of the "->" is. Once we got the notation and your background assumptions squared away, we would probably be looking at something comparable to the Peano-type proofs I linked to on the MathExchange website yesterday.daveS
September 1, 2015
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Andre @ 88: Yes, Aleta, had a little "whoopsie" on that above where in one sentence he said "I don't know" and in two sentences later asserted dogmatic knowledge. And then the backpedaling began.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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And there it is the materialist Mantra and at least half the reason the world is broken..... "I know that I cannot know" Simple question then dear materialist... How do you know that you cannot know?Andre
September 1, 2015
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BA, what goes beyond this is axiomatisation and construction of algebraic structures and definitions more carefully worked out than terms of a difficult contract. For instance, just to get to numbers via sets, one has to cover the holes posed by naive theories then set up the set that collects no members -- you should hear my son'e objections to that concept -- and assign that cardinality 0, then the set that collects this is cardinality 1, then the set that collects these has cardinality 2 and so forth. Then you have to specify what it means to join sets, and so forth. Such help you to address just what is implicit in 2 + 2 = 4 or the like, but it does not really establish this to be so, that was shown once two-ness, joining and cardinality more broadly as well as equivalence were understood as opposed to defined to fit somebody's schematisation. best of all, the process through sets does not depend on any material artifacts whatsoever, as sets are essentially abstract . . . my bars earlier were in reality ways of setting up sets in familiar ways. And, lo and behold, cardinality has physical effects when manifested in material entities. In short the self evidence stands apart from the various possible axiomatisations and deduced theorems. And a crow can understand enough through number sense, we extend that through counting etc. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2015
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daveS, Are you suggesting that a "proof" based on propositions more fundamental than: || + || --> |||| exists? Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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KF @82, Thanks, I think we're on the same page then.daveS
September 1, 2015
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REC:
But what does arguing this truth is “self evident” vs. apparent or empirical get us?
Barry responds:
What does self-evident truth get us? Why rationality itself REC. If you don’t understand why that is true let me know and I will explain it to you, but 30 seconds of thought will get you there. I will understand if you don’t put in the effort though, since materialists are not big on the whole rationality thing anyway, and thinking is hard work, and 30 seconds is a long time.
REC:
[crickets]
Silver Asiatic:
Law of identity. 2 = 2 The first principles of geometry (or logic in this case) are self-evidently true. You can’t prove the first principles since they’re axiomatic. They have to be accepted, otherwise logic is impossible.
SA, on behalf of REC, who was apparently not able to work this out for himself, thank you.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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Barry @79, No, I never denied that self-evident truths exist. I merely pointed out that proofs that 2 + 2 = 4 do exist. *Edit: As did REC before me.daveS
September 1, 2015
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DS, Basic arithmetic does have a fuzziness involved, especially on the patent absurdity side. Fuzzy thresholds are a familiar pattern, but that full head to bald head is fuzzy does not eliminate the clear difference. A good test for public discussion is whether an intelligent 12 yo could be led to understand the matter through a reasonable discussion at his level, and then whether the absurd consequences of attempted denial would be immediately, readily apparent. But that would not change the fact of necessary truth, e.g. that the side and diagonal of a square are incommensurate is necessary but it is by no means self-evident. That demonstrable fact can be learned and then used, but such will depend on authority or else fairly serious study. 2 + 3 = 5, or || + ||| --> ||||| is very different. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2015
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Law of identity. 2 = 2 The first principles of geometry (or logic in this case) are self-evidently true. You can't prove the first principles since they're axiomatic. They have to be accepted, otherwise logic is impossible.Silver Asiatic
September 1, 2015
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REC, gotta go, but Pons Asinorum proper is necessarily but not self-evidently true as those who have had to learn how to prove it know. But the effect of being a litmus test of whether one will be able to do Geometry brings out the threshold of background effect. Aquinas spoke to this long ago. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2015
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daveS, Do you agree with me that just as soon as you posit the existence of a line between self-evident truths and non-self-evident truths, you have given away the store? The point of the OP is that self-evident truths exist. It is no response to that post to say, "yeah, but so do non-self-evident truths."Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
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