Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“Self-Evident” Does Not Mean “Apparent”

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Many of our materialist friends do not seem to know the difference between the epistemological categories of “self-evident” and “apparent.” I am providing this primer on the difference to help them understand.

Here is a typical exchange where a materialist makes this category error.

Barry: It is self-evident that torturing an infant for pleasure is evil.

Materialist: Yeah, lots of things that have seemed self-evident have turned out to be false. For example, people used to believe it is self-evident that the earth is flat, and they were dead wrong.

Where has M gone wrong? First, M has gone wrong on the basic factual premise of his comparison. The ancients knew the earth was round and even measured its circumference. Great discussion here.

But the fact that materialists continue to spew this factually incorrect chestnut over and over after repeated correction is secondary for our purposes today. More importantly, M has failed to understand the epistemological difference between “apparent” and “self-evident.” “Apparent” means “according to appearances.” M has asserted that it is apparent to many people that the earth is flat. That appearance is false. And by equivocating between “apparent” and “self-evident” he attempts to prove that some self-evident propositions are false.

Nonsense. In the sense we are using it, “self-evident” is not a synonym for “apparent.” Instead, a self-evident proposition is defined as a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning without proof. In that sense, is the proposition “the earth is flat” a self-evident proposition? Let’s see.

P1: The earth is flat.

P2: How do you know?

P1: Just go outside and look at it.

What has P1 just done? He has appealed to evidence in order to prove his statement. That very appeal means that his statement cannot be considered self-evident. Go back to our definition. A self-evident claim is one that we know to be true without proof.

An example of a self-evident claim is that 2+2=4. I cannot “prove” that 2+2=4. But does the fact that I cannot prove the proposition mean that I must conclude it is false? Of course not. I know the proposition to be true without proof merely because I understand what it means. Another way of looking at it is that I know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd in the sense that it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true I would have to reject rationality itself.

Unlike the statement “the earth is flat,” the statement 2+2=4 is not merely apparently true, it is necessarily true in any rational universe.

We have a clue that we are not talking about a self-evident truth when a proposition is appended to the word “believe.” Yes, people believe self-evident truths in the sense that they must necessarily accede to the fact that they are true. But people do not “believe” self-evident truths in the sense that they have evaluated the evidence and reached a conclusion they think is justified. Self-evident propositions are not subject to proof or disproof by empirical evidence. They are necessarily true. A person’s belief about a self-evident truth is irrelevant and is therefore rarely expressed. Thus, when one talks about a proposition that is either “believed” or “disbelieved” it is a clue that the proposition is not a proposition of self-evident truth.

This brings me back to my original statement. Numerous materialists with whom I have argued have denied that the statement “torturing an infant for pleasure is evil” is self-evidently true. They always agree that it is true. They never agree that it is self-evidently, necessarily true.

And I always ask them this question: Please describe the circumstances under which the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is true. I say we can know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd because it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true we would have to reject rationality itself. The same is true of all self-evident propositions. The negation of any self-evident truth is absurd and rationality itself must be rejected in order to accept such a negation. I say the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is just such an absurd negation of a self-evident truth. You, materialist, say it is not. Please support your assertion.

Dear readers, note that my challenge is extremely risky, epistemologically speaking, because even a single instance where it is met will shatter my project into a million pieces.

Happily, no one has ever come remotely close to answering this challenge. And it is easy to see why.

Comments
Nominalism has driven many people insane.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
09:02 AM
9
09
02
AM
PDT
KF's example of the crow is instructive. Evidence shows that some animals have an understanding of small quantities that is obviously not dependent on a verbal or notational symbolic representation - it is a non-verbal understanding (as all of a crow's understandings are, as far as we know) of the property of the material world that some things (those that have a definite, distinct existence that doesn't blur into other objects) retain that distinctness as they move around.Aleta
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
09:01 AM
9
09
01
AM
PDT
Aleta,
No, the fact that Barry did not appeal to material evidence could be because Barry might be wrong that material evidence has nothing to do with it.
Are you suggesting that the mathematical statement 2+2=4 is subject to empirical invalidation? Are you suggesting that we need material evidence to know that it is true?Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
09:00 AM
9
09
00
AM
PDT
StephenB writes.
If, as you acknowledge, Barry did not appeal to material evidence to establish his self-evident truth, then material evidence has nothing to do with it.
No, the fact that Barry did not appeal to material evidence could be because Barry might be wrong that material evidence has nothing to do with it. StephenB writes,
Here is the point that you do not understand: Evidence does not inform self-evident truths; self-evident truths inform evidence.
This is not a matter of me not understanding - this is a matter of me disagreeing with you and Barry about the fundamental relationship between the material world and our knowledge of it.Aleta
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
08:37 AM
8
08
37
AM
PDT
Aleta: Your "definitions" have to do with understanding twoness, fourness, the operation of addition and the relationship, is the same as. Once one understands the concepts, one can see why 2 + 2 = 4 is true and cannot but be true on pain of patent absurdity. Last I checked crows cannot speak languages in which such definitions are laid out in painful detail, but I recall a story of a crow that realised that when two men and two men went into a tower but only three came out, one was still inside so there was danger. (I think that sense ran out at 5 or 6.) KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
08:34 AM
8
08
34
AM
PDT
SB: “What statement about “material evidence” did Barry appeal to?”
He didn’t. I did.
If, as you acknowledge, Barry did not appeal to material evidence to establish a self-evident truth, then material evidence has nothing to do with the fact that it is true. The statement stands on its own and needs no empirical evidence to make it legitimate, just as my statement @35 needs no empirical evidence to make it legitimate, just as the principle in the OP needs no empirical evidence to make it legitimate. Here is the point that you do not understand: Evidence does not inform self-evident truths; self-evident truths inform evidence. Material evidence is for making inductive arguments, not for establishing self evident truths, without which no arguments at all can be made.StephenB
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
08:30 AM
8
08
30
AM
PDT
Barry writes, “Aleta @ 37 informs us that the mathematical proposition 2+2=4 is “material.” Fascinating. Aleta, kindly tell us what the physical properties of this material thing are. Does it have mass? Or a specific gravity? Perhaps a wavelength?” That is not what I said. Please re-read #34. It is hard to to respond to a statement that doesn’t accurately reflect what I said. StephenB writes, “What statement about “material evidence” did Barry appeal to?” He didn’t. I did. StephenB writes at #41, “Is that you way of saying that you will not address my question @35?” In the interest of both focus and time, I’m going to stick with discussing the 2 + 2 = 4 example for the time being. My statement about not being a “dedicated materialist” was because I don’t want to be mis-labeled. It’s not really the topic of this discussion, though.Aleta
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
08:11 AM
8
08
11
AM
PDT
Aleta
to StephenB: I am not a ‘dedicated materialist”.
Is that you way of saying that you will not address my question @35?StephenB
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
07:52 AM
7
07
52
AM
PDT
Aleta, Did you notice, like I have, that none of your fellow materialists was willing to acknowledge this challenge in the OP, far less try to meet it:
And I always ask them this question: Please describe the circumstances under which the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is true. I say we can know for an absolute certain fact that the proposition “2+2 is not 4” is absurd because it cannot possibly be true, and in order to accept it as true we would have to reject rationality itself. The same is true of all self-evident propositions. The negation of any self-evident truth is absurd and rationality itself must be rejected in order to accept such a negation. I say the proposition “torturing an infant for pleasure is not evil” is just such an absurd negation of a self-evident truth. You, materialist, say it is not. Please support your assertion.
Perhaps you will take a crack at it.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
07:50 AM
7
07
50
AM
PDT
Aleta
2 + 2 = 4 is “self-evident” because it’s a statement about definitions. It is based on material evidence:
What kind of "material evidence" did Barry appeal to?StephenB
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
07:47 AM
7
07
47
AM
PDT
Aleta @ 37 informs us that the mathematical proposition 2+2=4 is "material." Fascinating. Aleta, kindly tell us what the physical properties of this material thing are. Does it have mass? Or a specific gravity? Perhaps a wavelength?Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
07:47 AM
7
07
47
AM
PDT
to StephenB: I am not a 'dedicated materialist". to Barry: My point is that it is self evident because it is based on definitions about simple material facts.Aleta
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
07:37 AM
7
07
37
AM
PDT
Aleta, if your point is that there are self-evident truths, this being one of them, then it is well taken. Thanks.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
07:31 AM
7
07
31
AM
PDT
Starbuck, Daniel King, Learned Hand, Aleta, and all dedicated materialists, I would like to ask you a couple of questions based on an assertion: The amount of pepperoni in a whole pizza is equal to or greater than the amount found in one of the slices. [a] Is this statement self-evidently true? Yes or no. [b] If it is self-evidently true, can I reliably draw conclusions about other truths without appealing to empirical evidence of any kind? Yes or no.StephenB
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
07:30 AM
7
07
30
AM
PDT
2 + 2 = 4 is "self-evident" because it's a statement about definitions. It is based on material evidence: if I define "2" to represent a certain number of stones and "4" to represent a certain number of stones, then 2 + 2 = 4 is a true fact about happens when I put two piles of two stones each together. Among other things, 2 + 2 = 4 is only true of of things that have a definite, distinct identity. Two drops of mercury + two drops of mercury does not equal four drops of mercury.Aleta
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
07:14 AM
7
07
14
AM
PDT
Starbuck, Forgive me for hoping in my comment 22 that you had had a momentary lapse of your normal incoherence.Barry Arrington
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
06:26 AM
6
06
26
AM
PDT
dupeStarbuck
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
05:31 AM
5
05
31
AM
PDT
"I am not sure what Starbuck is trying to say" That is truly self-evident. I knew one day the right would become so irrational we would have to go back to sesame street to re-educate them, that there are real reasons why 2+2=4Starbuck
September 1, 2015
September
09
Sep
1
01
2015
05:30 AM
5
05
30
AM
PDT
DK @ 29. Thank you for being succinct, but you have have overdone it a tad. Because I have no idea what you are talking about.Barry Arrington
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
05:49 PM
5
05
49
PM
PDT
Barry: It is self-evident that torturing an infant for pleasure is evil. One less thing for THE OBJECTIVE MORAL CODE to address.Daniel King
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
05:14 PM
5
05
14
PM
PDT
No prob mj.Barry Arrington
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
04:23 PM
4
04
23
PM
PDT
Sorry to have put words in your mouth there BA. You are of course right. A self evident truth = that which is true regardless of opinion, perception or ability to grasp...mjoels
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
“the earth is flat” I would submit that such a statement cannot be made if the whole earth can't be perceived. ;) Andrewasauber
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
02:53 PM
2
02
53
PM
PDT
I announce my axiom in comment 23 and LH jumps in and provides a lovely example of the axiom in action in comment 24. Thanks LH! Yes, a proposition that is self-evident to one person may not be to another who is less intelligent or educated. Thanks for admitting that 2+2=4 is an example of a self-evident truth and that therefore self-evident truths exist.Barry Arrington
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
02:51 PM
2
02
51
PM
PDT
I assume there's a grey area between "self evidence" and "needs to be reasoned out." For example, I doubt anyone thinks there's a bright line between 2+2 type of questions and the 98/14 type of questions. It's going to vary depending on a person's education and experience. (For example, 256*2 is intuitively obvious to people who have experience with computers; I'm pretty sure my parents' generation would need to calculate it.) So, I assume that such a grey area exists. Please yell at me and call me a liar if my assumption is wrong. If it does, then how does one tell whether their perception of a self-evident truth is accurate or in error? Staying in the realm of mathematics for now, 2+2 is an easy example; what about 5*15? Some people will think it's intuitively as easy as 2+2... but if you tested them, some of those people would intuitively get the wrong answer. Granting arguendo that there's a core of beliefs like 2+2 about which no error is reasonably possible, how do you know when you've left that area and you could be in error? Self-certainty seems like the answer on display... but humans are fallible, even when (especially when?) we're certain about our own perceptions.Learned Hand
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
02:43 PM
2
02
43
PM
PDT
daveS and REC want to talk about axiomatic statements. Well, here is an axiom that is invariably true in my experience:
There is no truth so simple, clear, beautiful and pristine that some materialist will not try to shit on it.
Barry Arrington
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
02:01 PM
2
02
01
PM
PDT
I am not sure what Starbuck is trying to say at 20. But if he is saying that 98/14=7 is not self-evident in the same way that 2+2=4 is, then I agree with him for the reasons he states. His swipe at theists is particularly ironic given that prior to his comment only theists have spoken truth in this thread, and two of his fellow materialists have posted statements that he agrees to be false.Barry Arrington
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PDT
Dr JDD's point at 12 is good. The materialist playbook: When confronted with an indisputable truth, then confuse the issue, misdirect, employ sophistry, dissemble. I have never met a materialist who was not an inveterate liar.Barry Arrington
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
01:55 PM
1
01
55
PM
PDT
That is like saying it is self evident that 98divided by 14 equals 7. You wouldnt say that because you would need to work it out, 2+2 = 4 and there are formal proofs, and if you know the definition of each term you can see it with your own eyes using apples , it is a proven assertion unlike most of what theists sayStarbuck
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
01:53 PM
1
01
53
PM
PDT
First incompleteness theorem Excerpt: Any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of elementary arithmetic can be carried out is incomplete; i.e., there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/ Gödel’s Incompleteness: The #1 Mathematical Breakthrough of the 20th Century Excerpt: Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem says: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle - something you have to assume to be true but cannot prove "mathematically" to be true.” http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/incompleteness/
bornagain77
August 31, 2015
August
08
Aug
31
31
2015
01:52 PM
1
01
52
PM
PDT
1 5 6 7 8

Leave a Reply