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What is “Evidence”

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This is a follow up to my Stupid Things Atheists Say post. Evolve is being obstinate in his idiocy. He does not seem to understand the rather simple distinction between “evidence” and “evaluation of evidence.” I will try to help him (whether a fool such as he can be helped remains to be seen; there are none so blind as those who refuse to see). I will try to spell it out in terms adopted to the meanest understanding:

What is “evidence”? The dictionary defines the word as follows: “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.” The rules of evidence that I use in court define relevant evidence as anything that has a “tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence”  Note that for evidence to be evidence it need not compel a conclusion; it need only have a tendency to lead to the conclusion.

Suppose I am trying a case and the key issue in the trial is whether the light was green. I put on two witnesses who testify the light was green. Is this testimony evidence? Of course it is. The testimony has a tendency to make a fact of consequence to the case (i.e., the light was green) more probable than it would have been without the evidence. My opponent then puts on three witnesses who testify the light was red. That is evidence also.

The evidence closes; we make our closing statements; the jury is charged; and off the to the jury room they go. The jury then evaluates the evidence. Now suppose the jury comes back and says, “we find as a matter of fact that the light was red.” I lose the case. Did I lose the case because the jury had “absolutely no evidence” on which to find that the light was green?  Of course not. I presented evidence (i.e., testimony) that the light was green; presenting evidence is, after all, what a trial is about.  I lost the case not because there was no evidence the light was green.  I lost because the jury was unpersuaded by the evidence I submitted.

Now, if someone comes along and says I lost the case because there was “absolutely no evidence the light was green,” we would say that person was an idiot. Of course there was evidence. The evidence just did not persuade the decision maker.

Now, the evidence for God: All of the things I listed in my last post are evidence that God exists. Let’s take fine tuning as an example. There are a few possible explanations for fine tuning: Inexplicable brute fact; multiverse; God did it. The fact that God is at least a possible explanation for fine tuning means that fine tuning is evidence for the existence of God.

Who is the jury? Everyone is a juror. We all evaluate the evidence for God’s existence and come to a conclusion. I find the evidence from fine tuning very persuasive. If I were on the jury I would vote “God exists.” The fact that you would vote “God does not exist” does not mean there was “absolutely no evidence.” You are like the jurors who believed the light was red and were unpersuaded by the evidence that the light was green. It is not a matter of whether there was no evidence. It was a matter of the evaluation of the evidence.

I hope that helps. I doubt that it will since your ideological blinders seem to make you incapable of seeing anything outside of your narrow dogmatic myopic point of view.

Comments
Graham 2 "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"Andre
February 11, 2015
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Andre: No, sorry, not so. That's why Pakistan remains (very) largely Islamic, why the US remains (mostly) Christian, etc etc. Its a statistical thing. You may buck the trend, even Dawkins switched, but generally, people retain the faith of their parents. I realise you find it hard to imagine, but the odds are that if you were born in Pakistan to Moslem parents, you would now be stoutly defending Allah. Even me. Imagine that.Graham2
February 10, 2015
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Graham, most kids reject their parents taste in music, fashion choices, etc etc etc. But Religion sticks. Don't you find that funny? Why does Religion stick? Because sapien is born Religious and tends to stay that way. By nature. And it makes sense to look back many many generations, not just looking at parents. I'm sure my family tree has different Religions represented over the ages. All the way back to monkey lol.ppolish
February 10, 2015
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Graham 2 I can attest that Dawkins is wrong, I was born into an atheist home and I was one for 34 years. The day finally came when I had to open myself to the fact that the life I've lived is wrong or false. I'll tell you why the Hindu holy books don't work, its holy books say the universe is eternal..... Is it? The Quran says Allah placed mountains on top of the earth to act like tent pegs so it won't shake..... is this consistent with how mountains are formed or with what we observe with plate tectonics? The Bible says God made the mountains rise up.......... That is completely consistent with our observations. These are just 3 examples there are many more.Andre
February 10, 2015
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Andre: Dawkins makes the point that we (you) adopt the religion that was passed on by our parents. So if your parents were Hindu, then right now you would be making all the same arguments, but in defence of the Hindu gods. And most energetically too. You would just simply refuse to accept anything else. Ditto Islam, etc etc etc, for as many gods as you like. Don't you find this funny ?Graham2
February 10, 2015
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Graham 2 It is entirely possible that the Christian God is not the creator of the universe, every single Christian I know also knows this but here is how it works, after weighing all the evidence of all the possible gods the evidence fits better that it was the Christian God. Now I know evidence does not mean anything to you but Genesis 1:1 is consistent with what we already know about our universe, that it had a beginning. There are allot more evidence obviously some subtle some not so and others brutal. Let me tell you why I believe the bible to be true, The bible does not sugar-coat anything, it does not hide the fact that its heroes like Moses ( a murderer and a man of no backbone) David (A murderer and adulterer)If I was to try and sell you a religion I would not sell you these facts about its heroes would I? No I'd tell you about all the nice things only. Another thing I find peculiar is that the Bible says there will be no sex in heaven. Let me tell you something, you don't tell men there will be no sex in heaven. Which man do you know will buy into something that says there will be no sex, unless of course its true. Think about that.........Andre
February 10, 2015
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Graham 2
It’s Reasonable to Accept the Existence of An Uncaused “First Cause” This “first cause” of the universe accounts for the beginning of all space, time and matter. It must, therefore, be non-spatial, a temporal and immaterial. Even more importantly, the first cause must be uncaused. If this was not true, the cause of the universe would not be the “first” cause at all. Theists and atheists alike are looking for the uncaused, first cause of the cosmos in order to avoid the irrational problem of an infinite regress of past causes and effects. It is, therefore, reasonable to accept the existence of an uncaused, first cause.
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2013/who-created-god/#sthash.eXi41QVx.dpufAndre
February 10, 2015
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Andre: God does not require an explanation Ah, yes. I wont bother with that line of enquiry any more, but my question from somewhere above still stands: Why does the creator have to be your particular god ? Perhaps its some other god.Graham2
February 10, 2015
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Graham 2 The problem is with your question? By definition God is uncreated and eternal so why would you ask who created God? Like I said the question is as irrational as asking what sound does silence make? And please spare me from the idea that your feelings have been hurt, you berate people all the time here....... Go ahead call me a hypocrite that's not living to his Christian values because I know that's your next charge! God does not require an explanation because God is THE maximally greatest conceivable Being!Andre
February 10, 2015
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Andre: You have just finished berating me for not understanding that everything has a cause, so it doesn't seem an unreasonable question. Im not asking for an infinite regress, just 1. So, who created god ?Graham2
February 10, 2015
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Graham 2 Who created God? This may help you with that question..... http://coldcasechristianity.com/2013/who-created-god/ So Graham 2. What sound does silence make?Andre
February 10, 2015
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Graham 2 You are trying to ask me for the explanation of the explanation. I'm not sure how evolved your brain is but that is illogical. Who caused God is irrelevant if God is a sufficient explanation for the cause of this universe, the moment we go into infinite regress reason and logic is removed from the entire conversation.Andre
February 10, 2015
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Andre: That wasn't my question. My question was simple: Who created god ?Graham2
February 10, 2015
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Barry Stop speaking sense you're going to confuse the people that evolved from monkeys!Andre
February 10, 2015
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Daniel King asks:
What assumptions (or evidence) motivate your claim that chaos is the “default”?
Does your house clean itself up? No. Why is that? Because spontaneous order is counter to all evidence. Order does not just happen. It must be imposed. What is true of your house is true of the universe as a whole.Barry Arrington
February 10, 2015
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Graham 2 Again, everything that BEGINS to exist has a CAUSE Think about it, begins to exist.... if you don't begin to exist do you need a cause?Andre
February 10, 2015
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So, Andre, who created god ?Graham2
February 10, 2015
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Graham2 @ 73:
Creationists don’t understand what the word ‘evidence’ means. Fine tuning etc, may be evidence of a hand at work, I would be prepared to accept that, but which hand?
Graham, as far as I am aware no one argues that fine tuning, all by itself, proves the existence of the Christian God. It is evidence for a God capable of creating the universe, and certainly the Christian God is a candidate. Just as when I am trying a case, usually no one piece of evidence makes the case all by itself. TV notwithstanding, a smoking gun is never placed in evidence for the simple reason that if a case involves a smoking gun it never gets to trial. It settles beforehand. In real trials (as opposed to the TV kind), the lawyer's goal is to pile up piece after piece after piece of evidence until finally you've got a pile of evidence that convinces the jury. Same thing here. Fine tuning is evidence for a generic God. If you want to get to the specifically Christian God, there is plenty of other evidence. So in the end, I kind of agree with your comment. Fine tuning is evidence for a hand at work; it does not identify the hand.Barry Arrington
February 10, 2015
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Evolve Who created God? We have been through this a million times lets do it again..... Everything that BEGINS to exist has a CAUSE. I am however glad to see you are taking cause and effect seriously, I have some atheist friends that deny the law of causality.Andre
February 10, 2015
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Daniel King. Every law has a lawgiver.Andre
February 10, 2015
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I think the point that Barry and other theist are trying to make is that accepting or believing in God as the cause of the visible universe is not an irrational position given the evidence. I also do not think that an atheist rejects God because of the evidence no more than a theist believes in God solely because of fine tunning. In most cases faith in God is a personal choice that is founded on reason, but not exclusively driven by it. Athiesim is likewise often founded on some form of reason, but is usually drive by personal reasons, lifestyle choices, bad religious experiences, pain etc... The point of this post was only to show that theist have valid reasons to believe that God created the universe, and they are no less valid than a multiverse, and personally I believe they are more valid given the recent track record of string theory...jcfrk101
February 10, 2015
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Daniel King
"What’s ridiculous is the invocation of “law” and “lawgiver.”
You seem to be a little confused. Regularity is the product of law, and law is the product of a law giver. Regularity is also the product of order, which in turn, is the product of an orderer. The concept isn't really that hard. Just think painting >>> painter. Does that help?
Teleological thinking run amok. Assuming one’s conclusions is not good intellectual form, StephenB.
Your confusion persists. To conclude the existence of a painter from an observed painting is not assuming a conclusion. It is arriving at a conclusion from an observation. You do understand that the observation precedes the conclusion and not the other way around, right? Well, no, I guess you don't.StephenB
February 10, 2015
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Creationists don't understand what the word 'evidence' means. Fine tuning etc, may be evidence of a hand at work, I would be prepared to accept that, but which hand ? If you are a Christian then of course, its your favourite god. But if you are Hindu ? Why its krshna or some such. The point is: what is there about fine-tuning that links it to your god, rather than some other god ?Graham2
February 10, 2015
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Hi Barry. I see no need, as you and your fellow theists do, to invoke an anthropomorphic creator and mover. What assumptions (or evidence) motivate your claim that chaos is the "default"? I'm going to bed. See you mañana.Daniel King
February 10, 2015
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One of the most ironic evidences for the existence of God is that the core of neo-Darwinian theory is reliant on faulty theological presuppositions:
Charles Darwin's use of theology in the Origin of Species - STEPHEN DILLEY Abstract This essay examines Darwin's positiva (or positive) use of theology in the first edition of the Origin of Species in three steps. First, the essay analyses the Origin's theological language about God's accessibility, honesty, methods of creating, relationship to natural laws and lack of responsibility for natural suffering; the essay contends that Darwin utilized positiva theology in order to help justify (and inform) descent with modification and to attack special creation. Second, the essay offers critical analysis of this theology, drawing in part on Darwin's mature ruminations to suggest that, from an epistemic point of view, the Origin's positiva theology manifests several internal tensions. Finally, the essay reflects on the relative epistemic importance of positiva theology in the Origin's overall case for evolution. The essay concludes that this theology served as a handmaiden and accomplice to Darwin's science. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=376799F09F9D3CC8C2E7500BACBFC75F.journals?aid=8499239&fileId=S000708741100032X Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html
It is not really all that surprising, given all the failed predictions of Darwinism, that neo-Darwinism, at its core, would be reliant on faulty theological presuppositions, because all of science is, at its core, reliant on the following minimal Theological presuppositions:
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 Greg Bahnsen debate available at the bottom of the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://justinholcomb.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist/
Here is a photo that gets the atheist's predicament across humorously
"Hawking’s entire argument is built upon theism. He is, as Cornelius Van Til put it, like the child who must climb up onto his father’s lap into order to slap his face. Take that part about the “human mind” for example. Under atheism there is no such thing as a mind. There is no such thing as understanding and no such thing as truth. All Hawking is left with is a box, called a skull, which contains a bunch of molecules. Hawking needs God In order to deny Him." - Cornelius Hunter http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H-kjiGN_9Fw/URkPboX5l2I/AAAAAAAAATw/yN18NZgMJ-4/s1600/rob4.jpg
Here is a lecture on presuppositional apologetics:
The Atheist’s Guide to Intellectual Suicide – James N. Anderson PhD. - video https://vimeo.com/75897668
bornagain77
February 10, 2015
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Daniel King, you seem to think you have a right to take regularity and order in the universe as a given. It seems safe to say that the default position should be that chaos obtains unless order is imposed. You seem to think you can get your order and regularity for free. Who is doing the assuming? Hmmmm?Barry Arrington
February 10, 2015
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StephenB, after claiming that regularity "points to" law, which "points to" a lawgiver, and after I called that claim ridiculous, said:
It is obvious. What do you think regularity points to, chaos?
What's ridiculous is the invocation of "law" and "lawgiver." Teleological thinking run amok. Assuming one's conclusions is not good intellectual form, StephenB.Daniel King
February 10, 2015
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I asked StephenB:
What criteria distinguish that [philosophical] kind of evidence from scientific evidence or theological evidence or philosophical argument?
He answered:
You didn’t know that evidence also comes in forms that can’t be measured?
Unmeasurable evidence indeed. How does one measure evidence and determine which classes of evidence are measurable and which classes can't be measured? The weeds grow thicker. In any case, I see no criteria in that response that distinguish "philosophical evidence" from other kinds of evidence and I suspect that the category "philosophical evidence" is yet another of StephenB's figments invented ad hoc for rhetorical effect.Daniel King
February 10, 2015
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There is no direct observation of the evolution of humans from ape-like ancestors.
Correct, only imagination can take such a leap.Joe
February 10, 2015
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In science, evidence is the observations that are entailed in a hypothesis.
Unguided evolution doesn't have any entailments nor does it seem to be able to generate any testable hypotheses.Joe
February 10, 2015
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