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WJM Throws Down the Gauntlet

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All that follows is WJM’s:

Modern physics has long ago disproved the idea that “matter” exists at all. Timothy’s position might as well be that because we all perceive the sun moving through the sky from east to west, it is a fact that it is the sun that is doing the moving.

Just because we perceive a world of what we call “matter” doesn’t change the fact that we know no such world actually exists regardless of what our perception tells us. What we call “matter” is a perceptual interpretation of something that is not, in any meaningful sense, “matter”. We know now (current science) that matter is, at its root, entirely “immaterial”, despite what our macro sensory perceptions have told us for millennia (like the sun moving through the sky).

Materialists are clinging to a pre-Victorian perspective of what it is we are perceiving, long since discarded after over a hundred years of experimental results.

Now we get to the so-called “material-immaterial interaction problem”. First, there is no “material world,” so it’s problematic to begin with a term that draws from an archaic, unscientific understanding of what it is we are perceiving.

Second, has the “material-material” interaction problem even been addressed, much less “solved”? We have absolutely no idea **how** “matter” interacts with other “matter”. We can describe the behavior of that interaction, then use a term to refer to that model as if that term was an actual “thing”, but describing the behavior is not explaining the **how** of the interaction.

When so-called dualism objectors can first explain matter/matter interaction, and when they can tell us what they mean by “material” and “immaterial”, they will then have a meaningful foundation to form a cogent objection to the idea of material/immaterial interaction.

Any materialist here up to that very basic task?

Comments
WJM @ 110 Have you considered that you might be trapped in the Cartesian Theater? Micheal Egnor has a fascinating article on the theory of perception. Does perception happen at the object or at the sensory organs? https://evolutionnews.org/2015/12/perception_and/juwilker
August 21, 2018
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jdk said:
I have pointed out several times that this is not a settled matter,
That local reality has been disproved is as settled as "disproved" and as "settled" as things get in the provisional nature of science. That photons and electrons are affected by conscious observation and not mere interaction with supposed physical surroundings is as settled as it gets in science. Just because materialism-committed physicists don't like what the evidence implies doesn't change any of that, as you allude to as you contniue:
and that prominent QM theorists have objected to this idea on the grounds that it leads to solipsism.
They object to this rational implication of the evidence on the grounds that they dislike where they think the implication leads.
These same issues pertain to wjm’s thesis: if five people all report seeing that the rock broke the window, even though each person’s experience of that perception is available only to themself, the consensual agreement about what they saw is strong evidence that there is in fact a rock and a window external to themself.
Yes, it is. I've never said otherwise. Just because the theory of an external reality is good at explaining a lot of evidence/experience doesn't mean it is true. Insisting that evidence repeatedly gathered and proved via further experimentation doesn't mean what it rationally indicates - that the external reality model is wrong - is displaying ideological commitment to the external reality model. It's like clinging to the geocentric model when evidence clearly demonstrates that view is wrong.
Yes, what we experience is mediated by the nature and capabilities of our senses (for instance, we could in theory see more of the electromagnetic spectrum to that the color of the rock would be different), so we can’t know the “thing-in-itself”: we can only know that thing as it appears to us (as Kant explained).But that doesn’t mean that the thing-in-itself doesn’t have an independent reality.
No, but the quantum evidence that has disproved local reality has demonstrated exactly that very thing. It doesn't render the "exterior reality" model unusable; it just means that what we experience is not what that model describes and that there are phenomena that do not fit that model. Unfortunately for external realists, that non-fitting phenomena is the deep foundation of all of what we experience as an "external physical reality".William J Murray
August 11, 2018
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wjm invokes quantum mechanics, as he has done in the past, in stating:
There is also substantial quantum experimental evidence that the “independent, physical, external world” theory is incorrect. ... I think that the theory that the so-called “physical world” is some sort of mental/experiential construct is the place to start, and there has been (IMO) a lot of experimental and testimonial evidence to support this perspective.
I have pointed out several times that this is not a settled matter, and that prominent QM theorists have objected to this idea on the grounds that it leads to solipsism. Excerpt From: Adam Becker. “What Is Real?.” iBooks.
“If wave functions are information rather than objects in themselves, they must be information of a rather peculiar sort. “Whose information?” demanded John Bell. “Information about what?” To resolve the measurement problem, information-theoretic interpretations had to answer these questions. The most immediate and Copenhagen-friendly answers were “my information” and “information about my observations”—but to Bell, such answers were profoundly inadequate. Placing observation at the center of physics smacked of positivism, a philosophy that Bell had entertained and rejected during his college days, concluding that it led inevitably to solipsism. Solipsism—the idea that you are the only person, and everyone and everything else is merely a hallucination of some kind in your own mind—was a problem that had haunted positivism from the start. Information-based interpretations of quantum physics ran the risk of collapsing into solipsism as well. If the information that the wave function represented was your information, what makes you so special? And how could different observers agree on the same information? How could your information appear to be an objective fact in the world, something capable of creating interference patterns plain for all to see?
These same issues pertain to wjm's thesis: if five people all report seeing that the rock broke the window, even though each person's experience of that perception is available only to themself, the consensual agreement about what they saw is strong evidence that there is in fact a rock and a window external to themself. Yes, what we experience is mediated by the nature and capabilities of our senses (for instance, we could in theory see more of the electromagnetic spectrum to that the color of the rock would be different), so we can't know the "thing-in-itself": we can only know that thing as it appears to us (as Kant explained). But that doesn't mean that the thing-in-itself doesn't have an independent reality.jdk
August 11, 2018
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SA,
I can refer to it without naming it. In other words, the exterior world does not exist because I named it. I believe it exists because I can prove that it does.
I assume you mean, you can provide evidence and argument in favor of the theory that an independent, external physical world exists. There is also substantial quantum experimental evidence that the "independent, physical, external world" theory is incorrect. I don't disagree that we have consensual experiences that make it appear as if we live in an external, independent physical reality; I'm just saying that the theory that an actual external physical reality exists is an unnecessary and limiting ideological perspective akin to materialism. I'm not saying it is not a useful theory. It is. But there is a difference between a theory being useful in a context, and being held as an ideological truth. With the latter, when evidence arrives on the scene that contra-indicates the theory or demonstrates problems with it, the evidence is dismissed, ignored or downplayed. I think the proper point here would be to ask if anyone has a theory that better explains the evidence and is more useful, or at least provides some practical benefit or means of testing. I think that the theory that the so-called "physical world" is some sort of mental/experiential construct is the place to start, and there has been (IMO) a lot of experimental and testimonial evidence to support this perspective.William J Murray
August 11, 2018
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SA, once we have distinct things, even objects of rational imagination, || + | --> ||| will still obtain. The conscious experience of rational imagination is real, and first principles of reason and thence the logic of being apply. Abstracta such as numbers are real, though we may debate in what way. This extends to issues of ought, logical entailment and more. Further, our experience of an external world is is in key part mediated through conscious reflection and schemes of thought that turn that into confusion may freely be rejected as absurd. KFkairosfocus
August 10, 2018
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WJM, been busy, If we use base 3, 2 + 1 is one three and no units, 10_base 3. KFkairosfocus
August 10, 2018
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SA @ 104 I also am a Christian theist. I agree with many things you say, but sometimes I think you make too strong of statements that you cannot support. You speak as if you understand the mind of God. "God is outside of time. There is no sequential process of logic in God’s mind. God does not need logic – all conclusions are known instantaneously" I know that you think you understand these things, but I'm fairly certain you don't. You are likely using the same revealed Scripture that I use. And these Scripture do not so strongly lead to the conclusions you state. We really have no idea what we mean when we say "God is outside of time" We can only describe it, not understand it or use for prediction, self enlightenment, or solidifying other truths (in my humble opinion). I think we need to be careful claiming that we know how God's mind works.juwilker
August 9, 2018
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WJM
it is presumed to be true because of the ideological commitment to the “external physical reality” perspective.
It is presumed true because all parties had access to what the camera showed and all accept that they did not create the experience in their own thoughts. They trust their senses to correctly detect what they see (and that they actually saw something). All the witnesses have that universal experience – they saw something that was not themselves. It’s universal, not consensual.
So, you are admitting that physical reality does not necessarily precede the idea of a thing. In fact, in your belief, the idea of a thing precedes all physical reality. Correct?
Theologically, yes – God is the First Cause of all things. God is not physical or material – God created material things as well as spiritual entities. So, God precedes all things, yes. I accept that. God cannot follow from something else – because God cannot be dependent on another cause.
Thus, mind and thought, under your paradigm, precede and do not rely on the physical. I would also assume that you believe God was rational and logical and knew math, even without any physical world objects to tie such concepts to?
The physical is what is temporal – created for a physical universe that has an existence in time. When we speak of God “having a mind”, that is not correct. God is pure being without parts. Additionally, when we talk of logic, rationality and math – these are artifacts of human reasoning. These are also created realities. They are not “parts” of God. Human reason has some similarity to God’s thought – but no – God is not “rational” or “logical” or “mathematical” in how we understand those terms. Those terms are oriented to human reason. Logic for example, is sequential. It moves through steps from premise to conclusion. It is linear. You speak of “preceding” that also is a time-bound concept. Something coming before or after. God is outside of time. There is no sequential process of logic in God’s mind. God does not need logic – all conclusions are known instantaneously. The “process of reason” or “rationality” is also a human process. It is the process of comparing and contrasting different entities. It is sorting truth from falsehood. None of this applies to God. There is no comparison of concepts in God’s mind where He will then choose a conclusion or solution. We do this however, and God created an external reality for us in order that we would know if our conclusions are true or false. We generate our thoughts from information gained from the senses, then we abstract concepts from them and sequentially compare them and seek the truth
Well, there’s a lot to unpack here. First, I don’t think you have the right to claim anything about “universal expereince.”
I would think that in your view I have the right to claim anything and everything. That’s a key problem, as I see it. In my experience, I have the right. I would think you would necessarily have to support that. To say that I don’t have the right would contradict my own experience – which has as much value as any.
Second, you use what you NAME “an external material world” as the “basis” for your proof – but, that’s what the discussion is about – the nature of what you have NAMED “the external physical world.”
I can refer to it without naming it. In other words, the exterior world does not exist because I named it. I believe it exists because I can prove that it does.
Third, I’m not sure it is the “basis” of any proof, because without logic and math, which are entirely mental constructs, “proving” doesn’t exist.
Well, we showed that math does not prove itself. We used a reference to prove that 1+1=2. It’s not just a mental concept. “Triangles have three sides”. That’s defining something. Now, when I see something called a triangle I can validate or falsify that by counting the actual sides. Logic is the same. We have to start with premises that are true and we validate by the external reality. All pine trees are plants This is a pine tree Therefore this is a plant. But this argument would be false if the first premise is false. But we accept the first premise because of our universal experience of plants and pine trees. The first principles of logic are proven in external reality. Otherwise, if they can be questioned as only conditionally correct – correct only because of consensus – then logic falls apart.
Experience is caused by something. What do you think causes it? Mind.
Do you believe that your mind is distinct from other minds?
I wonder, do you believe that intelligent, rational beings with thoughts and experiences existed before the supposed external, physical world existed?
Similar to my response on God’s mind – human reason (rationality) did not exist before humans. I believe angels were created by God as pure spirit. But there could be no rationality or logic where there is no sequence of time (moving from premise to conclusion). Where there is no time, there is no real process – things occur instantaneously. We call angels “intelligent” because they possess the spiritual power that God gave them. But they do not need to use logical arguments to arrive at conclusions. They go immediately to the truth of matters- they are in the presence of God so they apprehend the truth about being in one instance, without the need for arguments and proofs. As such, there is no need for an external material reality for them. For humans, there is such a need because we exist in the sequential development of time and our awareness grows towards the truth of things via reason and logic.Silver Asiatic
August 7, 2018
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WJM Your worldview is radically different than my own so I apologize in advance for writing a lot in order to try to understand and also to explain my thoughts.
I think we’d need to explain how we arrived at this consensual experience, how it was created (where it came from), and why we have it. WJM: Why is that?
Well, we’re using consensual experience to validate our arguments and conclusions. Proving that 1+1=2 you pointed to a consensual experience as the means we would use to prove that argument. So, the consensus experience has a high value – it’s a standard. Why does 1+1=2? Because consensual experience can demonstrate it. So, that consensus is a validator – a reason. I am saying therefore, if consensual experience is that which validates our proof, we need to know why consensus has that value. Why is it the standard? In my view, I believe there is an external reality that is universally accessible. I do not appeal to a consensus. A universal reality does not come from human minds, but is a given. A consensus view of things is changeable. A changeable standard provides an uncertain foundation. If the consensus experience on what "1" is, changes – then 1+1 will no longer =2. What is the likelihood of the consensus view of that experience to change? It is essential to know this. If it is something that could change on a daily basis (like what is the most popular investment in stock today), then it has little long term value. If the consensus is something that never will change – how would we know that? What kind of trust can we put in the consensus experience? That is why we should know where the consensus comes from. Did we create it? Do many people have this experience because they are ignorant or deceived? Additionally, to use the consensus as a validator, we need to know what (how much) the consensus actually is. It is a vast majority, borderline? What is the consensus opinion on the morality of abortion? That is changeable but even today, what is the popularity or not of that act? So, the consensus standard has very high meaning for moral norms. The consensus experience is that murder of an innocent person is immoral. But you’re saying that is not universal. There is a minority, non-consensus view. This leaves all moral questions on an uncertain foundation. That may be fine but why should one accept the consensus view of anything? How do we even know it is a consensual experience? Would we have to take votes and surveys of people to find out what to base our reasoning on?
Is rational communication between people not possible unless we know where the supposed external physical world came from, and why it exists?
Rational communication is not possible if there is no external reality. We know that the origin of the external world is not from our own mind – otherwise, if it was – then rational communication would not be possible. When replacing the external world, which we know exists outside of ourselves and therefore we use an an objective, universally accessible standard for logic and reason – when replacing that with a consensus experience world, we need to know at least to an equal extent, what the origin of that world is, how we can access it, and why it exists. I do have an explanation for the external world and why it exists. I am a Christian theist so I have that explanation. So, to replace the external world, for which I have an explanation, for a different world for which you have no explanation – is not reasonable. Therefore, I am asking why I should base my conclusions on a consensus experience? Why should I believe a consensus experience exists? In economic terms – let’s say someone gives me money that is based on the gold standard. This is comparable to my belief in external reality. When I have this paper money, I can exchange it for gold, which I can physically receive in nuggets or bars. The value of the paper is supported by something tangible. Now, you say that I should exchange that money, for example, for a different currency that is supported by an unknown standard. You do not know what the standard is, where it came from, or why it has value. You may say that the value of this currency is better than the gold. But with the gold-oriented money, I know what the standard and value is. Like it or not, I accept what it is. For the new currency (consensual experience), I’m just asking what that standard actually is. How much value does it actually have? It is used it to prove 1+1=2 (ignoring for now that I could choose a minority-view experience to refute that same equation) so it must have high value – but where does this value come from? There are several options for where the consensus experience came from: 1. We manufacture everything that we experience (the only thing that exists is our individual mind) 2. Someone or something else created the illusion of the consensus experience and implanted it in us (mind in vat idea, I suppose) 3. In ancient times the human race all experienced the same things somehow 4. The chemical properties of our brain produce this consensus experience in all who have it (and does not produce it in those who don’t) I’m sure there are many others
I don’t think you need to be able to explain how and why a thing exists, or even how it works, in order to be able to use it. The history of the world is full of being able to use things successfully without understanding how they came to exist or why. Did we need a full understanding of modern physics before we were able to walk, build things, innovat? No.
I didn’t request a “full understanding”. It seems you are saying that you can offer nothing at all about what you believe the origin of the consensus experience is. So, I would say, even in primitive history, humans offered some conjecture on where everything came from. Again, I think it’s unreasonable to propose consensual experience as a standard which we should use for making judgements without offering some idea about where that standard comes from.
No. Consensual can mean as few as two people.
I would appreciate more of a definition on what consensual is.
I don’t know what you experience, SA, but not everyone in my experience is having “the same subjective experience”. In fact, people in my experience report having many very different kinds of experiences, some that conflict with my own experience, which can make rational discussion on those topics very difficult.
I can offer many ideas on concepts where everyone has the same understanding, and has done so since the beginning of human history. (Truth has a fundamentally different value than falsehood, for example). The term ‘everyone’ means that causes for exceptions are understood. We already mentioned 1+1=2. If that formula is based on a consensus view alone, then it is easy to falsify the formula. This is what destroys reason. If it is not universal that 1 distinct unique entity exists, then it is easy to falsify any mathematical formula. That is the basis of logic also. Something must exist as itself, as distinct from other things.
I disagree that we have universal commonality of experience in the first place. What most people operate under is that assumption, and that anyone who has experiences that contradict the presumed commonality is labeled as crazy, lying, or deceitful.
It seems that you’re saying that nobody can be crazy, lying or deceitful.
Often, witnesses to the same scene report entirely different things; it is presumed that when one shows a recording of the incident, that means the recording is what “actually” happened. That may or may not be true;
If it is true, then I believe that contradicts your viewpoint. I think in your view, nothing “actually” happened. There is no external reality. Every witness has a subjective experience. What causes that experience? You’re saying that you don’t know, I believe. If the experience is caused by something that happened, then that’s an external reality. If all witnesses created the experience, then all testimonies are true.Silver Asiatic
August 7, 2018
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SA said:
I think we’d need to explain how we arrived at this consensual experience, how it was created (where it came from), and why we have it.
Why is that? Is rational communication between people not possible unless we know where the supposed external physical world came from, and why it exists? I don't think you need to be able to explain how and why a thing exists, or even how it works, in order to be able to use it. The history of the world is full of being able to use things successfully without understanding how they came to exist or why. Did we need a full understanding of modern physics before we were able to walk, build things, innovat? No.
Am I correct in thinking that “consensual” is another term for “universal”? In other words, every human being has these same experiences and always had had them?
No. Consensual can mean as few as two people.
If so, the question of origins is relevant, I think. Either way – how is it that everyone has the same subjective experience? What is causing it?
I don't know what you experience, SA, but not everyone in my experience is having "the same subjective experience". In fact, people in my experience report having many very different kinds of experiences, some that conflict with my own experience, which can make rational discussion on those topics very difficult.
The external reality explains the experiential commonality. So, as above, what is the alternative explanation for the commonality of experience?
I disagree that we have universal commonality of experience in the first place. What most people operate under is that assumption, and that anyone who has experiences that contradict the presumed commonality is labeled as crazy, lying, or deceitful. Often, witnesses to the same scene report entirely different things; it is presumed that when one shows a recording of the incident, that means the recording is what "actually" happened. That may or may not be true; it is presumed to be true because of the ideological commitment to the "external physical reality" perspective.
Yes. He created a world with material and spiritual elements, by love out of his intelligence and will (describing the indescribable oneness of God using human terms).
So, you are admitting that physical reality does not necessarily precede the idea of a thing. In fact, in your belief, the idea of a thing precedes all physical reality. Correct? Because you follow that up with:
God possesses all being and lacks nothing. The idea for photons and quarks came from His mind – in other words, by Design.
Thus, mind and thought, under your paradigm, precede and do not rely on the physical. I would also assume that you believe God was rational and logical and knew math, even without any physical world objects to tie such concepts to?
I think I prove it exists through universal experience and that the material world is used as the basis of proofs.
Well, there's a lot to unpack here. First, I don't think you have the right to claim anything about "universal expereince." Second, you use what you NAME "an external material world" as the "basis" for your proof - but, that's what the discussion is about - the nature of what you have NAMED "the external physical world." Third, I'm not sure it is the "basis" of any proof, because without logic and math, which are entirely mental constructs, "proving" doesn't exist.
Experience is caused by something. What do you think causes it?
Mind.
I agree. We have different kinds of experiences and different kinds of thoughts.
I wonder, do you believe that intelligent, rational beings with thoughts and experiences existed before the supposed external, physical world existed?William J Murray
August 7, 2018
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WJM
Or, we could say it requires reference to consensual-physical experience, whether or not what we are experiencing is **actually** something that exists independently of our observation.
I think we'd need to explain how we arrived at this consensual experience, how it was created (where it came from), and why we have it. Am I correct in thinking that "consensual" is another term for "universal"? In other words, every human being has these same experiences and always had had them? If so, the question of origins is relevant, I think. Either way - how is it that everyone has the same subjective experience? What is causing it?
I understand what you’re saying; my point is that you are adding an unnecessary condition to consensual experience – that it is primarily an “external reality”. Whether or not an external reality exists, we require some degree of experiential commonality in order to communicate at all, much less “prove” anything.
The external reality explains the experiential commonality. So, as above, what is the alternative explanation for the commonality of experience?
Those questions are perfectly valid from a perspective that presupposes external material reality that is independent of mind, that it is material reality that precedes mind.
I think we're speaking different languages here so I can't follow.
I’m not sure how to even reconcile that with you being a theist; did God create the world ‘out of nothing” in His mind?
Yes. He created a world with material and spiritual elements, by love out of his intelligence and will (describing the indescribable oneness of God using human terms).
I mean, where did God get the idea for photons and quarks?
God possesses all being and lacks nothing. The idea for photons and quarks came from His mind - in other words, by Design.
If your point is that the material world must be the basis for all thought, the fallacy lies in the assumption that a material world actually exists.
I think I prove it exists through universal experience and that the material world is used as the basis of proofs.
What is actually the basis for all thought is experience, whether an external physical world exists or not.
Experience is caused by something. What do you think causes it?
If we have different kinds of experience, we have (generally speaking) different kinds of thoughts. Do you not agree?
I agree. We have different kinds of experiences and different kinds of thoughts.Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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SA said:
So the proof requires this external reference.
Or, we could say it requires reference to consensual-physical experience, whether or not what we are experiencing is **actually** something that exists independently of our observation.
I am saying this is universal and that another person can understand and accept the proof because they also can access the same external reality.
I understand what you're saying; my point is that you are adding an unnecessary condition to consensual experience - that it is primarily an "external reality". Whether or not an external reality exists, we require some degree of experiential commonality in order to communicate at all, much less "prove" anything.
Do we manufacture reality ourselves out of nothing in our mind? Or perhaps it is a matrix-like world that we are living in – all an illusion?
Those questions are perfectly valid from a perspective that presupposes external material reality that is independent of mind, that it is material reality that precedes mind. I'm not sure how to even reconcile that with you being a theist; did God create the world 'out of nothing" in His mind? I mean, where did God get the idea for photons and quarks? If your point is that the material world must be the basis for all thought, the fallacy lies in the assumption that a material world actually exists. What is actually the basis for all thought is experience, whether an external physical world exists or not. If we have different kinds of experience, we have (generally speaking) different kinds of thoughts. Do you not agree?William J Murray
August 6, 2018
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jdk @ 95 That was good, yes.
Start with solid, distinct objects such as rocks to represent unity
Ok yes the "unity" we would point to "the nature of rocks" - these objects are of the same sort of thing. But they are also each unique. We see one rock and a similar but different one. This is what is impossible in an abstract world alone because thoughts do not have material characteristics that we can refer to this way.Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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mike1962 made the statement: "Your head is in a vat." But what do you mean by that specifically?Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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the edit feature doesn't seem to be working ... WJM - in my question I mean, why do we agree (have consensus) that there are 2 objects that we can identify, when the idea remains personal & subjective? If we received no sensory input, where did our concept of the objects come from? Do we manufacture reality ourselves out of nothing in our mind? Or perhaps it is a matrix-like world that we are living in - all an illusion? Just wondering.Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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WJM I think that's the only way. We reference an object and then demonstrate that the addition of another gives a larger group (bigger in count by one additional object). So the proof requires this external reference. I am saying this is universal and that another person can understand and accept the proof because they also can access the same external reality. What do you think is the origin of the consensus of subjective/personal experience?Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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That's right. Start with solid, distinct objects such as rocks to represent unity, assign words to help abstract the idea of quantity from the particular instances of rocks. Then assign words to further groups (two things, etc.), then show that combining a group of one thing with another group of one thing gives the same quantity as the group we have already defined as having a quantity of two.jdk
August 6, 2018
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SA, I supposed I'd attempt to use the consensual-physical mode of experience to demonstrate, using objects and words.William J Murray
August 6, 2018
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WJM Someone else.Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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jdk @90, Thanks for your response. It looks to me that we are in agreement about much of this. SA asks:
How do you prove that 1+1=2 and that 2 > 1 ?
How would I attempt to prove it to whom? Myself? Someone else?William J Murray
August 6, 2018
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WJM
That may be true of your concept of “the concept of true”, but it is not true of my concept.
How do you prove that 1+1=2 and that 2 > 1 ?Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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Hi WJM. First, I'm not sure what part of your comments are actually in response to your discussion with SA, which I have only partially paid attention to. But I'll reply anyway. 1. When I said, "Solipsism is sort of a useless metaphysical position.", you wrote
There’s a difference between operating under the assumption that there is an external reality, and insisting that the consensual-physical category of experience defines and is the sole standard of “what is real.”
I agree, My thoughts are real, and no one else can even experience them. 2. When I wrote, "We have ways to prove that the earth is not flat. We have no way to prove that “out there” is not really out there, but just in my head.", you wrote,
Actually, we do. They’re the set of experiments (if they exist in your experiential framework) including the two-slit experiment, the delayed choice and other such research, that have conclusively (at least in my consensus-physical experience) proved (as much as anything gets “proved” in science) that without our conscious observation, nothing physically discrete would exist. The entire physical universe would only exist as quantum potential without discrete characteristics or locations.
I am not sure this matter of the meaning on QM in respect to what is real is settled. As I have mentioned before, I just read "What Is Real?: The Unfinished Quest for the Meaning of Quantum Physics", by Becker, which discusses the various alternative interpretations of QM. I wrote a bit about this in another thread: one somewhat relevant comment was here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-eugene-wigner-on-the-principal-argument-against-materialism/#comment-659836 3. When I wrote, "Are we justified in concluding, not as a solid proof, but as a reasonable conclusion upon which to base our knowledge, that there is really a world out there, and that our direct sensory experience of it, at the macro level at which it exists, is a reliable starting point for investigating the nature of the world?, you wrote
This same logic can be applied to the geocentrisim or flat-earth beliefs. What are you going to believe – your so-called “direct sensory perception”, or the evidence collected by scientific research?
Hmmmm. You seem to have ignored all my disclaimers. Of course I accept that my immediate sensory experience of the world is not the final arbitrator of what is true, and that multiple people, using instruments which extend our senses, contribute to our understanding of what is true about the world. 4. When I wrote, "Or, looking at this from a different direction, what conclusion do you draw that you we can’t prove that the senses are reliable?", you wrote,
Without logic, the senses tell us absolutely nothing “reliable”. It is not the senses that gives us any form of “reliability”, but rather reason when applied to experiential information. It is the mental that finds meaning and value in any experience – consensual-physical or otherwise (same shared-conensual physical disclaimers as above). Putting the physical world ahead of the mind/consciousness as arbiter of reality is a case of putting the cart before the horse. Mind is primary because it is the one that not only sorts the whole thing out, but it is apparently what is generating the appearance of the physical world in the first place.
Of course our mind is critical to knowing: we have sensory experiences of the external world, but that experience is both limited by the capabilities of our senses (we can't see radio waves, for instance) and is presented to us in our conscious experience. No matter how much sensory input is received by our physical body, our conscious experience is an integrated presentation of that sensory experiences which brings us our understanding of the external world which we are experiencing.jdk
August 6, 2018
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jdk said:
We assume that is true. Solipsism is sort of a useless metaphysical position.
There's a difference between operating under the assumption that there is an external reality, and insisting that the consensual-physical category of experience defines and is the sole standard of "what is real."
We have ways to prove that the earth is not flat. We have no way to prove that “out there” is not really out there, but just in my head.
Actually, we do. They're the set of experiments (if they exist in your experiential framework) including the two-slit experiment, the delayed choice and other such research, that have conclusively (at least in my consensus-physical experience) proved (as much as anything gets "proved" in science) that without our conscious observation, nothing physically discrete would exist. The entire physical universe would only exist as quantum potential without discrete characteristics or locations. (Please note that I am now framing my discussion here to denote that I am not assuming that we share 100% that which we refer to as the consensual-physical.)
re we justified in concluding, not as a solid proof, but as a reasonable conclusion upon which to base our knowledge, that there is really a world out there, and that our direct sensory experience of it, at the macro level at which it exists, is a reliable starting point for investigating the nature of the world?
This same logic can be applied to the geocentrisim or flat-earth beliefs. What are you going to believe - your so-called "direct sensory perception", or the evidence collected by scientific research? It seems you are only accepting what scientific evidence "can prove" if it agrees with your narrative. (That is, if we share similar consensual-physical histories on the matter.)
Or, looking at this from a different direction, what conclusion do you draw that you we can’t prove that the senses are reliable?
Without logic, the senses tell us absolutely nothing "reliable". It is not the senses that gives us any form of "reliability", but rather reason when applied to experiential information. It is the mental that finds meaning and value in any experience - consensual-physical or otherwise (same shared-conensual physical disclaimers as above). Putting the physical world ahead of the mind/consciousness as arbiter of reality is a case of putting the cart before the horse. Mind is primary because it is the one that not only sorts the whole thing out, but it is apparently what is generating the appearance of the physical world in the first place. SA said:
You’ve asked me if something is “true” and as I explained to WJM, the concept of “true” only has meaning when it can refer to some external reality that is accessible on a universal level.
That may be true of your concept of "the concept of true", but it is not true of my concept.William J Murray
August 6, 2018
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mike1962 I'll just echo jdk's questions and perhaps take it a bit farther. You're using the word "prove". My position is that you cannot prove anything without relying on information gained from the senses. So, your interest in proving things affirms that you believe the senses are reliable means of understanding. Otherwise, to seek to prove something is illogical. This is what I mean by how subjectivism destroys rational thought. You've asked me if something is "true" and as I explained to WJM, the concept of "true" only has meaning when it can refer to some external reality that is accessible on a universal level. We assert that the first principles of logic are true because we cannot have any rational thought without them. To use logic to attempt to defeat the first principles of logic is self-refuting. Experientialist monism violates the law of identity and thus invalidates logic.Silver Asiatic
August 5, 2018
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So Mike, what position do you take? Are we justified in concluding, not as a solid proof, but as a reasonable conclusion upon which to base our knowledge, that there is really a world out there, and that our direct sensory experience of it, at the macro level at which it exists, is a reliable starting point for investigating the nature of the world? Or, looking at this from a different direction, what conclusion do you draw that you we can't prove that the senses are reliable?jdk
August 5, 2018
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SA, Reliability of the senses is not something that is self-evidently true. Do you claim it is for yourself?mike1962
August 5, 2018
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mike1962
You can’t prove your senses are reliable, from your senses.
Just interested, how would you prove that statement?Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2018
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I agree, you can't. I am saying that also.jdk
August 4, 2018
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You can't prove your senses are reliable, from your senses. That should be a non-brainer, philosophically speaking. Lay back and think about it. :Dmike1962
August 4, 2018
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We have ways to prove that the earth is not flat. We have no way to prove that "out there" is not really out there, but just in my head. The two are not analogous.jdk
August 4, 2018
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