Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A “simple” summing up of the basic case for scientifically inferring design (in light of the logic of scientific induction per best explanation of the unobserved past)

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In answering yet another round of G’s talking points on design theory and those of us who advocate it, I have outlined a summary of design thinking and its links onward to debates on theology,  that I think is worth being  somewhat adapted, expanded and headlined.

With your indulgence:

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>> The epistemological warrant for origins science is no mystery, as Meyer and others have summarised. {Let me clip from an earlier post  in the same thread:

Let me give you an example of a genuine test (reported in Wiki’s article on the Infinite Monkeys theorem), on very easy terms, random document generation, as I have cited many times:

One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the “monkeys” typed, “VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t” The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in “The Two Gentlemen of Verona”. Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from “Timon of Athens”, 17 from “Troilus and Cressida”, and 16 from “Richard II”.[24]

A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulates a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took “2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years” to reach 24 matching characters:

RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r”5j5&?OWTY Z0d…

Of course this is chance generating the highly contingent outcome.

What about chance plus necessity, e.g. mutations and differential reproductive success of variants in environments? The answer is, that the non-foresighted — thus chance — variation is the source of high contingency. Differential reproductive success actually SUBTRACTS “inferior” varieties, it does not add. The source of variation is various chance processes, chance being understood in terms of processes creating variations uncorrelated with the functional outcomes of interest: i.e. non-foresighted.

If you have a case, make it . . . .

In making that case I suggest you start with OOL, and bear in mind Meyer’s remark on that subject in reply to hostile reviews:

The central argument of my book is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form).

Notice the terminology he naturally uses and how close it is to the terms I and others have commonly used, functionally specific complex information. So much for that rhetorical gambit.

He continues:

Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power.

Got that?

Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . . In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion] Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . .}

In effect, on identifying traces from the remote past, and on examining and observing candidate causes in the present and their effects, one may identify characteristic signs of certain acting causes. These, on observation, can be shown to be reliable indicators or signs of particular causes in some cases.

From this, by inductive reasoning on inference to best explanation, we may apply the Newtonian uniformity principle of like causing like.

It so turns out that FSCO/I is such a sign, reliably produced by design, and design is the only empirically grounded adequate cause known to produce such. Things like codes [as systems of communication], complex organised mechanisms, complex algorithms expressed in codes, linguistic expressions beyond a reasonable threshold of complexity, algorithm implementing arrangements of components in an information processing entity, and the like are cases in point.

It turns out that the world of the living cell is replete with such, and so we are inductively warranted in inferring design as best causal explanation. Not, on a priori imposition of teleology, or on begging metaphysical questions, or the like; but, on induction in light of tested, reliable signs of causal forces at work.

And in that context the Chi_500 expression,

Chi_500 = Ip*S – 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold

. . . is a metric that starts with our ability to measure explicit or information content, directly [an on/off switch such as for the light in a room has two possible states and stores one bit, two store two bits . . . ] or by considering the relevant analysis of observed patterns of configurations. It then uses our ability to observe functional specificity (does any and any configuration suffice, or do we need well-matched, properly arranged parts with limited room for variation and alternative arrangement before function breaks] to move beyond info carrying capacity to functionally specific info.

This is actually commonly observed in a world of info technology.

I have tried the experiment of opening up the background file for an empty basic Word document then noticing the many seemingly meaningless repetitive elements. So, I pick one effectively at random, and clip it out, saving the result. Then, I try opening the file from Word again. It reliably breaks. Seeming “junk digits” are plainly functionally required and specific.

But, as we saw from the infinite monkeys discussion, it is possible to hit on functionally specific patterns if they are short enough, by chance. Though, discovering when one has done so can be quite hard. The sum of the random document exercises is that spaces of about 10^50 are searchable within available resources. At 25 ASCII characters, at 7 bits per character, that is about 175 bits.

The proverbial needle in the haystack
The proverbial needle in the haystack

Taking in the fact that for each additional bit used in a system, the config space DOUBLES, the difference between 175 or so bits, and the solar system threshold adopted based on exhausting the capacity of the solar system’s 10^57 atoms and 10^17 s or so, is highly significant. At the {500-bit} threshold, we are in effect only able to take a sample in the ratio of one straw’s size to a cubical haystack as thick as our galaxy, 1,000 light years. As CR’s screen image case shows, and as imagining such a haystack superposed on our galactic neighbourhood would show, by sampling theory, we could only reasonably expect such a sample to be typical of the overwhelming bulk of the space, straw.

In short, we have a very reasonable practical threshold for cases where examples of functionally specific information and/or organisation are sufficiently complex that we can be comfortable that such cannot plausibly be accounted for on blind — undirected — chance and mechanical necessity.

{This allows us to apply the following flowchart of logical steps in a case . . . ladder of conditionals . . .  structure, the per aspect design inference, and on a QUANTITATIVE approach grounded in a reasonable threshold metric model:

The per aspect explanatory filter that shows how design may be inferred on empirically tested, reliable sign
The per aspect explanatory filter that shows how design may be inferred on empirically tested, reliable sign

On the strength of that, we have every epistemic right to infer that cell based life shows signs pointing to design. {For instance, consider how ribosomes are used to create new proteins in the cell:

The step-by-step process of protein synthesis, controlled by the digital (= discrete state) information stored in DNA
The step-by-step process of protein synthesis, controlled by the digital (= discrete state) information stored in DNA

And, in so doing, let us zoom in on the way that the Ribosome uses a control tape, mRNA, to step by step assemble a new amino acid chain, to make a protein:

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)
Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

This can be seen as an animation, courtesy Vuk Nikolic:

[vimeo 31830891]

Let us note the comparable utility of punched paper tape used in computers and numerically controlled industrial machines in a past generation:

Punched paper Tape, as used in older computers and numerically controlled machine tools (Courtesy Wiki & Siemens)
Punched paper Tape, as used in older computers and numerically controlled machine tools (Courtesy Wiki & Siemens)

Given some onward objections, May 4th I add an info graphic on DNA . . .

Fig I.0: DNA as a stored code exhibiting functionally specific complex digital information (HT: NIH)
Fig I.0: DNA as a stored code exhibiting functionally specific complex digital information (HT: NIH)

And a similar one on the implied communication system’s general, irreducibly complex architecture:

A communication system
A communication system. Notice the required arrangement of a set of well-matched, corresponding components that are each necessary and jointly sufficient to achieve function, e.g. coder and decoder, transmitter and receiver, Transmitter, channel and receiver, etc.

In turn,  that brings up the following clip from the ID Foundation series article on Irreducible Complexity, on Menuge’s criteria C1 – 5 for getting to such a system (which he presented in the context of the Flagellum):

But also, IC is a barrier to the usual suggested counter-argument, co-option or exaptation based on a conveniently available cluster of existing or duplicated parts. For instance, Angus Menuge has noted that:

For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met:

C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function.

C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time.

C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed.

C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant.

C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly.

( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)

In short, the co-ordinated and functional organisation of a complex system  is itself a factor that needs credible explanation.

However, as Luskin notes for the iconic flagellum, “Those who purport to explain flagellar evolution almost always only address C1 and ignore C2-C5.” [ENV.]

And yet, unless all five factors are properly addressed, the matter has plainly not been adequately explained. Worse, the classic attempted rebuttal, the Type Three Secretory System [T3SS] is not only based on a subset of the genes for the flagellum [as part of the self-assembly the flagellum must push components out of the cell], but functionally, it works to help certain bacteria prey on eukaryote organisms. Thus, if anything the T3SS is not only a component part that has to be integrated under C1 – 5, but it is credibly derivative of the flagellum and an adaptation that is subsequent to the origin of Eukaryotes. Also, it is just one of several components, and is arguably itself an IC system. (Cf Dembski here.)

Going beyond all of this, in the well known Dover 2005 trial, and citing ENV, ID lab researcher Scott Minnich has testified to a direct confirmation of the IC status of the flagellum:

Scott Minnich has properly tested for irreducible complexity through genetic knock-out experiments he performed in his own laboratory at the University of Idaho. He presented this evidence during the Dover trial, which showed that the bacterial flagellum is irreducibly complex with respect to its complement of thirty-five genes. As Minnich testified: “One mutation, one part knock out, it can’t swim. Put that single gene back in we restore motility. Same thing over here. We put, knock out one part, put a good copy of the gene back in, and they can swim. By definition the system is irreducibly complex. We’ve done that with all 35 components of the flagellum, and we get the same effect. [Dover Trial, Day 20 PM Testimony, pp. 107-108. Unfortunately, Judge Jones simply ignored this fact reported by the researcher who did the work, in the open court room.]

That is, using “knockout” techniques, the 35 relevant flagellar proteins in a target bacterium were knocked out then restored one by one.

The pattern for each DNA-sequence: OUT — no function, BACK IN — function restored.

Thus, the flagellum is credibly empirically confirmed as irreducibly complex. [Cf onward discussion on Knockout Studies, here.]

The kinematic von Neumann self-replicating machine [vNSR] concept is then readily applicable to the living cell:

jvn_self_replicator
The kinematic vNSR shows how stored coded information on a tape can be used to control a self-replicating automaton, relevant to both paper tape and the living cell

Mignea’s model of minimal requisites for a self-replicating cell [speech here], are then highly relevant as well:

self_replication_mignea
Mignea’s schematic of the requisites of kinematic self-replication, showing duplication and arrangement then separation into daughter automata. This requires stored algorithmic procedures, descriptions sufficient to construct components, means to execute instructions, materials handling, controlled energy flows, wastes disposal and more. (Source: Mignea, 2012, slide show as linked; fair use.)

HT CR, here’s a typical representation of cell replication through Mitosis:

[youtube C6hn3sA0ip0]

And, we may then ponder Michael Denton’s reflection on the automated world of the cell, in his foundational book, Evolution, a Theory in Crisis (1986):

To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter [[so each atom in it would be “the size of a tennis ball”] and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell.
We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines . . . . We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices used for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction . . . . However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equaled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours . . . .
Unlike our own pseudo-automated assembly plants, where external controls are being continually applied, the cell’s manufacturing capability is entirely self-regulated . . . .[[Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, Adler, 1986, pp. 327 – 331. This work is a classic that is still well worth reading. Emphases added. (NB: The 2009 work by Stephen Meyer of Discovery Institute, Signature in the Cell, brings this classic argument up to date. The main thesis of the book is that: “The universe is comprised of matter, energy, and the information that gives order [[better: functional organisation]  to matter and energy, thereby bringing life into being. In the cell, information is carried by DNA, which functions like a software program. The signature in the cell is that of the master programmer of life.” Given the sharp response that has provoked, the onward e-book responses to attempted rebuttals, Signature of Controversy, would also be excellent, but sobering and sometimes saddening, reading.) ]}

An extension of this, gives us reason to infer that body plans similarly show signs of design. And, related arguments give us reason to infer that a cosmos fine tuned in many ways that converge on enabling such C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life on habitable terrestrial planets or similarly hospitable environments, also shows signs of design.

Not on a prioi impositions, but on induction from evidence we observe and reliable signs that we establish inductively. That is, scientifically.

Added, May 11: Remember, this focus on the cell is in the end because it is the root of the Darwinist three of life and as such origin of life is pivotal:

The Smithsonian's tree of life model, note the root in OOL
The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Multiply that by the evidence that there is a definite, finitely remote beginning to the observed cosmos, some 13.7 BYA being a common estimate, and 10 – 20 BYA a widely supported ballpark. That says, it is contingent, has underlying enabling causal factors, and so is a contingent, caused being.

All of this to this point is scientific, with background logic and epistemology.

Not theology, revealed or natural.

It owes nothing to the teachings of any religious movement or institution.

However, it does provide surprising corroboration to the statements of two apostles who went out on a limb philosophically by committing the Christian faith in foundational documents to reason/communication being foundational to observed reality, our world. In short the NT concepts of the Logos [John 1, cf Col 1, Heb 1, Ac 17] and that the evident, discernible reality of God as intelligent creator from signs in the observed cosmos [Rom 1 cf Heb 11:1 – 6, Ac 17 and Eph 4:17 – 24], are supported by key findings of science over the past 100 or so years.

There are debates over timelines and interpretations of Genesis, as well there would be.

They do not matter, in the end, given the grounds advanced on the different sides of the debate. We can live with Gen 1 – 11 being a sweeping, often poetic survey meant only to establish that the world is not a chaos, and it is not a product of struggling with primordial chaos or wars of the gods or the like. The differences between the Masoretic genealogies and those in the ancient translation, the Septuagint, make me think we need to take pause on attempts to precisely date creation on such evidence. Schaeffer probably had something right in his suggestion that one would be better advised to see this as describing the flow and outline of Biblical history rather than a precise, sequential chronology. And that comes up once we can see how consistently reliable the OT is as reflecting its times and places, patterns and events, even down to getting names right.

Strawman
A Strawman

So, debating Genesis is to follow a red herring and go off to pummel a strawman smeared with stereotypes and set up for rhetorical conflagration. A fallacy of distraction, polarisation and personalisation. As is too often found as a habitual pattern of objectors to design theory.

What is substantial is the evidence on origins of our world and of the world of cell based life in the light of its challenge to us in our comfortable scientism.

And, in that regard, we have again — this is the umpteenth time, G; and you have long since worn out patience and turning the other cheek in the face of personalities, once it became evident that denigration was a main rhetorical device at work — had good reason to see that design theory is a legitimate scientific endeavour, regardless of rhetorical games being played to make it appear otherwise.>>

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In short, it is possible to address the design inference and wider design theory without resort to ideologically loaded debates. And, as a first priority, we should. END

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PS: In support of my follow up to EA at 153 below, at 157, it is worth adding (May 8th) the Trevors-Abel diagram from 2005 (SOURCE), contrasting the patterns of OSC, RSC and FSC:

osc_rsc_fsc

Figure 4: Superimposition of Functional Sequence Complexity onto Figure 2. The Y1 axis plane plots the decreasing degree of algorithmic compressibility as complexity increases from order towards randomness. The Y2 (Z) axis plane shows where along the same complexity gradient (X-axis) that highly instructional sequences are generally found. The Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC) curve includes all algorithmic sequences that work at all (W). The peak of this curve (w*) represents “what works best.” The FSC curve is usually quite narrow and is located closer to the random end than to the ordered end of the complexity scale. Compression of an instructive sequence slides the FSC curve towards the right (away from order, towards maximum complexity, maximum Shannon uncertainty, and seeming randomness) with no loss of function.

 

Comments
Gregory here misreports what he did in 4 above, opening words: "Stop deceiving . . . " This is a false accusation of deceit that on the doubling down in this post, G puts himself to STRIKE 2. KF [ADDED, later, cf 58 below, PS for onward links that justify my disregard for G's little vs big ID terminology -- neither are accurate to design theory and both, esp the big ID term as he has redefined [wrenched] it, are rhetorically loaded.] The fact that ‘design theory’ differs from ‘Intelligent Design theory' (IDT) is not an “unwarranted personal attack.” Since when is truth considered as ‘poisoning the atmosphere’? Will KF *ever* stop conflating IDT with 'design theory'? Should we try to calculate a FSCO/I for the probability of this? ;)Gregory
May 3, 2013
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Onlookers, Observe how the problem of tangents continues (I guess I will come back later to make some remarks on some, but only to neaten things up a bit, not to entertain more tangents). Eugen's remarks on a self assembling self replicating automaton are telling, let's bring them to the leading edge of the comments stream lest they be buried:
Self-assembling systems in the cell are fascinating. I see something of a similar process on human scale when I visit our robotics supplier. There is a production line where robots are partially assembling their own motors akin to partial self-replication. Even that small line is quite a complication with consideration of delivery of components, conveyors, speed synchronization, robot programming, interlocks, safety issues, error recovery, power delivery etc. It would be engineering nightmare to design complete self replicating machine in a way described by von Neumann. When we study cell we see similar action but on a smaller scale and in chemical domain rather than electro mechanical. There are number of organized, precise chemical processes at work. They sometimes run in parallel, they are coordinated, self-checking, components are auto repairing, etc “Order is the basis of organization and therefore the most fundamental problem in biology.” von Bertalanffy
Worth thinking about. KF PS: I would say (as a first bit of neatening up) Hitler had an invitation to penitence but when he was of age refused to pay that price and instead struck a fatal bargain with the devil. The innocents who died under his demonic hell-breathed madness -- I think the White Rose movement had that dead right -- would fall under the grace of innocence. Welcomed by God. But those of us who are of age to be accountable should not presume upon such. Perhaps I should clip Paul on this subject, as a foundational and starting point remark on that:
Rom 2:1 Therefore you are without excuse, whoever you are, when you judge someone else. For on whatever grounds you judge another, you condemn yourself, because you who judge practice the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment is in accordance with truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think, whoever you are, when you judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you have contempt for the wealth of his kindness, forbearance, and patience, and yet do not know that God’s kindness leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath for yourselves in the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment is revealed! 6 He will reward each one according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality, 8 but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness. 9 There will be affliction and distress on everyone who does evil, on the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, for the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous before God, but those who do the law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. 15 They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, 16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus. [NET]
So, we start with the light we do have and the question, do we walk by the light we know or should know? The undulled, undistorted conscience being the first point of contact with the voice of God. So, do we pass the test of conscience, and the test of our own sense of morality when we judge others, consistently? What do we do when we stumble? Beyond that, I focus on the light we know or SHOULD know. For instance, what is the import of our strong sense that what Hitler did was evil and worthy of condemnation? I suggest that it is a major showing of the point that murder is wrong. So, what grounds wrong? That is, in the foundation of our worldviews, if they are right, is an IS that can properly bear the weight of OUGHT. There is no such is in matter, energy and space-time or laws of chance and necessity. the only serious candidate is the inherently good and wise Creator God. So, already, we are without excuse, as Paul also said in Rom. Our consciences do point to the truth, as the candle of the Lord within. I think we need to look hard at worldview foundations, and here on will help. Including, this on the problem of good vs evil. Then also I suggest that there is good evidence that God has intervened decisively in human history, and suggest here on. But the main subject for the thread needs to be highlighted, not distracted from. Consistent ducking and dodging tells us that the balance on the merits is not where the objectors resorting to distractions want to go.kairosfocus
May 3, 2013
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What distinguished Einstein, Planck and Bohr from the Consensus was that they were capable of metaphysical thought,
They did, but one does not need to believe Eisnstein's metaphysics to accept Einstein's scientific proofs. Einstein is a genius for theorizing space-time and then having it proved an accurate model of the world; you don't need to accept Spinoza's God in order to understand General Relativity, his metaphysics was orthogonal to material truth.sigaba
May 3, 2013
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‘Schrodinger demonstrated that their interpretation was incomplete.’
The problem is the cat. Cats cannot be both alive and dead at the same time, but the Copenhagen Interpretation says they are, up until the point where you look in the box, at which point the cat is suddenly dead and had been dead, or alive and had been alive. You can either completely change your understanding of epistemology and philosophy to include supernatural non-causality, simultaneous life-death, and a physical world that depends on the conscious observer, or you can figure out why the Copenhagen Interpretation isn't complete, the second solution is more parsimonious and we have Many Worlds as a result. I would note that since you cited Bohr, he himself didn't think the observer collapsed the wavefunction either, he disagreed with the implications of his own narrative because he only intended the Copenhagen Interpretation to apply to the precise apparatus being used -- he didn't think the CI was applicable to thought-experiments or extemporization. If you're appealing to QM authority on the matter, almost none of them think consciousness plays a role in QM, except maybe Gene Wigner. Penrose has hypotheses for how the brain requires QM to operate, which is another interesting problem, but none of these are proved experimentally. Is it that my mind is closed to non-experimental truth, is that it?sigaba
May 3, 2013
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Before I go - when Einstein's resorted to his aesthetic criterion for choosing his hypotheses, he was not being scientific. So what!!!!!! Science is for pedants. What distinguished Einstein, Planck and Bohr from the Consensus was that they were capable of metaphysical thought, and that is what they engaged in much of the time, evidently to your utter mystification.Axel
May 3, 2013
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You wouldn’t have discovered it in a million years, since you have an overwhelming, a priori repugnance for what you can’t understand.
Where does that come from? Are you talking to someone else?sigaba
May 3, 2013
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Yes, metaphysics is more exalted than physics, as it underpins all scientific belief. 'Planck and Bohr’s math is correct,' That's all you need to say. You would have done well to leave it at that. 'Schrodinger demonstrated that their interpretation was incomplete.' Perhaps you could enlighten us further? Back later.Axel
May 3, 2013
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You wouldn't have discovered it in a million years, since you have an overwhelming, a priori repugnance for what you can't understand. I'll bet you call the counter-rational nature of the paradoxes in QM, 'counter-intuitive'!Axel
May 3, 2013
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Rubbish! You understand the metaphysics better than Planck and Bohr, who discovered and developed it?
Planck and Bohr's math is correct, but Schrodinger demonstrated that their interpretation was incomplete. Of course, QM is a physical theory, not a metaphysical one. Metaphysics isn't science, it's philosophy and spirituality.sigaba
May 3, 2013
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'QM is objective and operates the same, wether we know it exists, or wether all mind in the universe are dead.' Rubbish! You understand the metaphysics better than Planck and Bohr, who discovered and developed it? That'll be the day.Axel
May 3, 2013
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Does quantum mechanics seek to define the identity behind the consciousness, or does it rather infer the role of consciousness by its effects on matter, as observed?
The idea that Quantum Mechanics requires some sort of consciousness in order to "collapse the wavefunction", or that QM is contingent on an observer, is a misinterpretation, promulgated by pop-sci books and careless reporters, and persists with people who read about Schrodinger's Cat from Deepak Chopra books. QM is objective and operates the same, wether we know it exists, or wether all mind in the universe are dead.sigaba
May 3, 2013
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The problem with the position of billmaz:
I don’t happen to believe in a personal God, though I pray all the time, just in case, and am repeatedly reminded of its futility. In the same vein, I don’t see a God intervening in the fates of man or the planet. But things may be subtle, I grant you that, so I can never say God is not present. If He is present, though, the evidence of eons of extinct species, close similarities between extinct and present species, (morphologically, genetically, etc.) sure makes us believe that He just let the forces roll without intervention. The arguments that I hear from ID that these similarities are just God’s way of using the same constructs over and over again for new species sound blatantly hollow. You can’t seriously believe that as a rational human being, never mind a scientist. So what is the answer? All of this evidence has to be explained by ID.
Let's take billmaz's position serious for a second. 1. He believes in a God who 1. designed a system of very few universal laws, 2. defined these laws in forces which allow for fluctuations at a quantum level, but average out at the macro level quite perfectly, 3. set 20-30 ( don't know the right number here ) constants to incredibly precise values to allow for complex chemistry. 4. Foresaw that these unique values would allow incredible structures to be built based on carbon, water, oxygen, nitrogen and a few other important elements. 5. .... ( Ad nauseum the list of constraints go on to allow for biological bodies ) Yet according to billmaz this God is not personal, He has all the ability to do all the above, yet He is not "Personal" - meaning what? 1. He can't carry on a conversation? He does not have a conscious even though man does? He can't find a way to communicate? He has no understanding of morality? ... And billmaz takes the absurd position that billmaz has enough wisdom to evaluate whether the design of millions of animals who went extinct was necessary in order to create this world we live in. When you look at it this way, the position of billmaz is absurd at best. I will correct something in billmaz's statement. He said: I don't happen to believe in a personal God. What he really means to say: Despite all the evidence, I don't want God to be personal. This is why God correctly says, "The fool hath said in his heart there is no God". The position that there is no God and the universe just came about by chance -- is untenable. The position that there is a God, who can do all the things necessary to create the universe, but can't communicate with his creation -- is absurd. I don't believe there IS a god by faith. I believe there IS a god by the rules of logic and science ( ID ). I believe this God is personal because logic demands that His ability must be a superset of mine, not a subset. So I believe in a personal God by the simple application of logic and science. I believe that the sacrifice of God's Son is able to atone for my sins by faith and faith alone.JDH
May 3, 2013
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lastyearon, But how does an atheist, such as yourself, justify using a theologically based 'argument from evil' to argue against the truthfulness of Theism in general and Christianity in particular. Are you not sawing off the branch you are sitting on by assuming the existence of evil to ultimately deny the reality of evil? As to the necessity of Christ to avoid horrid NDE's, I submit this,, It should be noted: All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE (Near Death Experience) studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE's: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g It should also be noted that there are also a few notable hellish NDE's reported within Judeo-Christian cultures. This one was particularly interesting: video - (former atheist professor) Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/joni-heaven-howard-storm-j924/#.UKvFrYYsE31 and this: Suicide NDE Hell Testimony - Angie Fenimore - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWjH8hAFYkw Greyson and Bush (1996) classified 50 Western reports of distressing NDEs into three types: * The most common type included the same features as the pleasurable type such as an out-of-body experience and rapid movement through a tunnel or void toward a light but the NDEr, usually because of feeling out of control of what was happening, experienced the features as frightening. * The second, less common type included an acute awareness of nonexistence or of being completely alone forever in an absolute void. Sometimes the person received a totally convincing message that the real world including themselves never really existed. (note* according to one preliminary study, a similar type of this NDE may be very common among the Buddhist culture of China) * The third and rarest type included hellish imagery such as an ugly or foreboding landscape; demonic beings; loud, annoying noises; frightening animals; and other beings in extreme distress. Only rarely have such NDErs themselves felt personally tormented. Further notes: A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese) Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE's reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE's to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience. http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Zhi-ying/Zhi-ying-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1992-11-39-48.pdf The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 Several studies (Pasricha, 1986, Schorer, 1985-86) & Kellehear, 1993) Murphy 1999,2001) have indicated that the phenomenologies of NDEs is culture-bound. (Of Note: Judeo-Christian Culture NDEs are by far the most pleasant "phenomena") Here is a fairly disturbing Jewish NDE: Jewish near death experience part 1 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Ns3D6Tpfs Of note: I though this NDE af a Jewish woman who grew up in a Judeo-Christian culture was interesting: I arrived in an explosion of glorious light into a room with insubstantial walls, standing before a man about in his thirties, about six feet tall, reddish brown shoulder length hair and an incredibly neat, short beard and mustache. He wore a simple white robe. Light seemed to emanate from him and I felt he had great age and wisdom. He welcomed me with great love, tranquility, and peace (indescribable) - no words. I felt, "I can sit at your feet forever and be content," which struck me as a strange thing to think/say/feel. I became fascinated by the fabric of his robe, trying to figure out how light could be woven! http://bibleprobe.com/reneturner.htmbornagain77
May 3, 2013
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lastyearon, But how does an atheist, such as yourself, justify using a theologically based 'argument from evil' to argue against the truthfulness of Theism in general and Christianity in particular. Are you not sawing off the branch you are sitting on by assuming the existence of evil to ultimately deny the reality of evil? As to the necessity of Christ to avoid horrid NDE's, I submit this,, It should be noted: All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE (Near Death Experience) studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE's: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g It should also be noted that there are also a few notable hellish NDE's reported within Judeo-Christian cultures. This one was particularly interesting: video - (former atheist professor) Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/joni-heaven-howard-storm-j924/#.UKvFrYYsE31 and this: Suicide NDE Hell Testimony - Angie Fenimore - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWjH8hAFYkw Greyson and Bush (1996) classified 50 Western reports of distressing NDEs into three types: * The most common type included the same features as the pleasurable type such as an out-of-body experience and rapid movement through a tunnel or void toward a light but the NDEr, usually because of feeling out of control of what was happening, experienced the features as frightening. * The second, less common type included an acute awareness of nonexistence or of being completely alone forever in an absolute void. Sometimes the person received a totally convincing message that the real world including themselves never really existed. (note* according to one preliminary study, a similar type of this NDE may be very common among the Buddhist culture of China) * The third and rarest type included hellish imagery such as an ugly or foreboding landscape; demonic beings; loud, annoying noises; frightening animals; and other beings in extreme distress. Only rarely have such NDErs themselves felt personally tormented. Further notes: A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese) Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE's reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE's to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience. http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Zhi-ying/Zhi-ying-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1992-11-39-48.pdf The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 Several studies (Pasricha, 1986, Schorer, 1985-86) & Kellehear, 1993) Murphy 1999,2001) have indicated that the phenomenologies of NDEs is culture-bound. (Of Note: Judeo-Christian Culture NDEs are by far the most pleasant "phenomena") http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindestxt.htm Here is a fairly disturbing Jewish NDE: Jewish near death experience part 1 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Ns3D6Tpfs Of note: I though this NDE af a Jewish woman who grew up in a Judeo-Christian culture was interesting: I arrived in an explosion of glorious light into a room with insubstantial walls, standing before a man about in his thirties, about six feet tall, reddish brown shoulder length hair and an incredibly neat, short beard and mustache. He wore a simple white robe. Light seemed to emanate from him and I felt he had great age and wisdom. He welcomed me with great love, tranquility, and peace (indescribable) - no words. I felt, "I can sit at your feet forever and be content," which struck me as a strange thing to think/say/feel. I became fascinated by the fabric of his robe, trying to figure out how light could be woven! http://bibleprobe.com/reneturner.htmbornagain77
May 3, 2013
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Chance Ratcliff,
I’ll close with an adage that I find suits this circumstance. Christianity is an exclusive club, and everyone is invited to join.
Were the 1 million Jewish children who died in the holocaust invited to join? If not, are they burning in hell for eternity? Was Hitler invited to join? If he accepted, is he in heaven? _______ Atmosphere poisoning, cf. discussion here, which builds on 47 below. KFlastyearon
May 3, 2013
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Hi Kairos Thanks for the detailed article and explanations. Self-assembling systems in the cell are fascinating. I see something of a similar process on human scale when I visit our robotics supplier. There is a production line where robots are partially assembling their own motors akin to partial self-replication. Even that small line is quite a complication with consideration of delivery of components, conveyors, speed synchronization, robot programming, interlocks, safety issues, error recovery, power delivery etc. It would be engineering nightmare to design complete self replicating machine in a way described by von Neumann. When we study cell we see similar action but on a smaller scale and in chemical domain rather than electro mechanical. There are number of organized, precise chemical processes at work. They sometimes run in parallel, they are coordinated, self-checking, components are auto repairing, etc “Order is the basis of organization and therefore the most fundamental problem in biology.” von BertalanffyEugen
May 3, 2013
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Onlookers, observe the lack of a clear counter-example to the design inference. Debates over definitions of things that are observed (or at least observationally grounded) entities, are no substitute. And, that pattern of changing the subject -- and, too often, poisoning the atmosphere -- instead of providing a devastating counter-example, has characterised the design debates in and around UD and elsewhere. That speaks volumes on the actual balance of the core case on the merits. The inference to design as causal process anchored on tested, reliable signs such as FSCO/I, is here showing just how well warranted it is, once the clouding, polarising and poisoning clouds clear. And, it should be plain that if we have strong empirically grounded warrant to infer design of life and of the cosmos [cf. linked discussions in OP], that opens up a lot of lines of onward, worldviews level reasoning on origins, especially of the cosmos, that a priori materialists are very uncomfortable with. That's not science, it is phil, but we should notice that the materialist a priorism we are dealing with is a bleeding back of phil into science that is even trying to redefine the nature of science and its methods. Begging big questions in so doing. KFkairosfocus
May 3, 2013
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Methinks billmaz is confused:
And for you to say that it is not an obligation for ID to answer questions of who and what and where the designer is contradicts scientific thinking. We always want to know who and what and where. That is the driving force of knowledge. That fact that you insist on restricting your horizon is an acknowledgment that the implications are too vast, and too difficult, to face scientifically.
1- ID is about the DESIGN 2- Reality dictates that in the absence of designer input or direct observation, the ONLY POSSIBLE way to make ANT SCIENTIFIC determination about the designer(s) or specific processes used, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence 3- Yes the design inference opens up other questions. But those are SEPARATE from determining design and tghen studying it. 4- And THAT proves the design inference is NOT a scientific dead-end as someone will attempt to answer those questions. Perhaps BillMaz can tell us how we can deduce the who and how just given the thing he/ she/ it designed. Good luck with that...Joe
May 3, 2013
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billmaz: I got into a similar kind of debate 18 months ago with gpuccio and others, and I'm still not sure if I was on to something or spouting drivel. The long and the short of it was that I felt a lack of a bare-bones, rigorous definition of a "designer" that would do better than a self-referential "someone/something that designs", including humans, aliens, gods and (tentatively) beavers while excluding "natural forces". Ultimately you finish up at "conscious mind". Much fun ensues trying to define that. After 18 months of having occasional little thinks to myself, my current idea is to try to define mind with reference to information. "Any system that constructs/uses/creates abstract models/imprints of present/potential reality." Or something like that. I know you're after some sort of Grand Explanation, but I wonder if this sort of thing might help. I mean it's all very well to speak of "design detection", but you either need to identify the Designer or come up with a definitive boundary of what is or is not a designer. --- On to theology, I notice your quandary about "eternal punishment", and I wonder what you would make of the following verses taken together: Psalm 146:3-4 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Romans 6:7 (Expanded Bible) Anyone who has died is made free [justified; declared righteous] from sin’s control. Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.englishmaninistanbul
May 3, 2013
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billmaz, perfect love is expressed in the atoning sacrifice. Jesus said,
"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends."
And that's exactly what Jesus did. So the act of sacrifice is itself the perfect act of love, because it provides a complete pardon for anyone who willingly accepts it. The only way to accept it is to believe it, but that confession of belief -- of your own sin and guilt before God, your need for salvation and a savior, and your acceptance of the death and resurrection of God's Son as sufficient to pay the penalty of that sin -- provides the promise of eternal life and the resurrection from the dead. Jesus said,
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." -- John 6:40
The need of the sacrifice and its centrality to the Christian message was spelled out by the apostle Paul:
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve."
It can be helpful to put the activity of justice and forgiveness into a familiar context. Imagine you were brought into court because you owed a severe debt that you refused to pay, and right before the verdict was rendered, which would have you imprisoned indefinitely, somebody showed up to pay the debt on your behalf, paid in full with nothing left owed. But by accepting the free gift you would be acknowledging your guilt, and confessing your need of redemption. This is the act of mercy, and it requires a confession of guilt. Mercy is not getting that which you deserve. Paul wrote,
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -- Romans 6:23
But grace is getting something that you don't deserve. Paul also wrote,
"...we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him." -- 1 Corinthians 2:7-9
However the message is difficult for some to accept. This is why I recommend praying about it directly.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." - 1 Corinthians 1:18-19 "...but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength" -- 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
This is how love, justice, and mercy are all satisfied. The hard part is the confession of guilt. One doesn't need a Savior if one has no sin. Jesus said,
"“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" -- Luke 5:31-32
These questions you ask are perfect questions to direct at God humbly and sincerely and with expectation of answer. I think if you follow through with reading John's gospel, and be willing to pray for guidance in understanding the truth about who Jesus is and how you can be certain, you'll be answered. That is my personal experience and my belief. I'll close with an adage that I find suits this circumstance. Christianity is an exclusive club, and everyone is invited to join. I hope you consider accepting the invitation. Only then can we teach you the secret handshake. ;)Chance Ratcliff
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BM: I see the underlying philosophical and theological issues that drive what you are wanting to discuss. And in its context, that is fine. In the context of science as an empirically grounded investigation, however, trying to force grand metaphysical debates before inspecting facts on the ground and seeking to discern patterns in those facts, has historically been deeply counter-productive. Indeed, it has often ended up -- as arguably is happening right now with the evolutionary materialist school of thought that currently dominates origins science studies -- imposing ideological orthodoxies that hamper the responsible investigation of the world as it is. Yes, I know, I know, that is the sort of "anti-science" accusation typically projected against people of theistic worldviews nowadays [which BTW has played a role in more than one unjustified bit of career busting by the evolutionary materialists and fellow travellers]. But to imagine the problem is confined to -- or even most likely to be found in the context of -- theism is proving to be a mistake. The problem is the dead hand of a dominant orthodoxy multiplied by the sort of agendas that see themselves justified in resorting to "all means necessary" tactics and abusive power reinforcement. By contrast I suggest you may want to ponder this summary of what science at its best is about:
science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on: a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical -- real-world, on the ground -- observations and measurements, b: inference to best current -- thus, always provisional -- abductive explanation of the observed facts, c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein's favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments], d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and, e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, "the informed" is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.) As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.
(And yes, this comes from the same IOSE.) There is something quite reasonable and self-justifying, in accepting the commonsense experience that we live in a world that is reasonably orderly and intelligible, grounding empirically based investigations seeking to elucidate the driving patterns, the laws, forces, constraints and factors that make the world tick. Then, investigating on effectively public observable facts and working out the driving patterns of reality. Cf. the design inference filter flowchart in the OP. It is in that context that it is reasonable to ask whether objects of interest can show signs that show causes tracing to chance, mechanism and design. Which is what design theory investigates. So, there is nothing disingenuous or hidden agenda about this, it is a matter of the question of what can be warranted on empirical facts open to in principle public inspection. Then, we can infer on best explanation of such facts to find out what is the most satisfying causal account. That the world of life seems replete with signs pointing to design is significant, but it is not in itself a proof that the cell based life we have examined, life on this planet, is caused by anything more than a molecular nanotech lab several generations beyond Venter et al. Gong beyond, there is a considerable body of evidence that we live in a cosmos with a finitely remote in time beginning, which implies causal dependence on an underlying necessary being as root of existence. The nature of that cause is not specified by that finding, but it sure gives pause. To multiply by signs of fine tuning that sets up the sort of life enabling cosmos we live in, does raise the issue of design by a designer with the skill, power and knowledge to create a cosmos. That is discussed in a linked from the OP, here. In my view, if that is what you want to explore the proper place for it is cosmology. KF PS: On your worldviews level concerns you may want to look here on.kairosfocus
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I’d like to take a stab at billmaz’s questions regarding why ID must be restrictive. Lets start with the premise that Science speaks with authority. And ID is part of Science. When a scientist (wearing the lab coat with the ID embroidered over the pocket) uses the science of design detection and makes claims that something is the product of a designer, he wants those claims to have the authority of Science. Were he to go beyond what is warranted by the evidence and speculate on the identity of the designer (while still wearing the lab coat), that would diminish the authority of the design claim. By sticking to just what can be inferred from the evidence, the ID scientist distances himself from materialist scientists who continually cross over into philosophical speculation without knowing that they are doing it. That’s because they see materialism and rationality as the same thing (as per the Philip Johnson quote above). Of course ID scientists are free to take off their lab coats whenever they want to and speculate on the implications of their scientific findings into the small hours (wearing smoking jackets, I assume). William Dembski assumes the two roles in his books and takes pains to make clear which claims are science based and which are his philosophical or theological speculations.Dr.Ford
May 2, 2013
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Thanks Chance. I understand perfect justice, but how does that square with perfect love, perfect mercy, and perfect understanding? Anyway, have a good night.billmaz
May 2, 2013
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billmaz,
"Chance, thank you for the privilege of talking to you."
Likewise.
"Quantum mechanics tries to do whatever it can. If it can define the identity behind consciousness it will, but as of now it can only “infer the role of consciousness by its effects on matter, as observed,” as you state. It has limitations, but not self-imposed! It tries to get to the bottom of it, as much as it can. It is different from ID because it does not limit itself. It goes on."
Intelligent Design is limited by its empirical nature and historical reasoning. This is why it can be considered scientific. If it employed philosophical arguments it would be philosophy, and if it employed theological arguments it would be theology. As a matter of fact, with regard to the latter, critics of ID try and tie it to theology specifically to level the claim that it is unscientific. Because ID limits its methodology to detecting the effects of intelligence, it remains in the realm of the empirical, which is a strength and not a weakness. Anyone is free to use ID reasoning and extend it to its philosophical and theological implications, but one must first accept that design detection is legitimate. Some ID critics, even those who advocate the expansion of ID into other realms of inquiry, don't confess that much.
"Regarding Christianity’s claims of being severe with regard to crossing over, I don’t believe in a severe God. I don’t think any god would do anything to His children that I would not do to mine, and I’m only human. I would never condemn my children to an eternity of suffering, no matter how bad or ignorant they were. Severity has always been a part of religion that I’ve rejected out of hand. No God could be severe. He, above all else, has to be understanding of the ignorant human condition He has placed us in. And, might I reiterate, He placed us in this human condition, not you or I."
This is not uncommon. Many protest the claims of Christianity on similar grounds, that they can't imagine a God who would punish. However when taken in total it makes more sense, and there are good apologetics that address these exact issues. So it's important to take in the entirety of claims, which is why I recommended the Gospel of John. It is a good, relevant account of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, as well as documentation of his unequivocal claims. At least with this approach, you can react to and question the actual words, where most people end up rejecting a caricature of Christianity, but know little about the various arguments and evidences, much less the actual gospel account. With regard to punishment, there are at least a couple of things to consider. One is that a perfect God requires perfect justice, which is where the punishment part comes in. However I believe that nobody who does not accept Christ will want to enter God's presence. God will honor this desire by pushing those who reject him out of his realm. Hell, whatever it happens to be, will be populated by those who fled from heaven -- they were not simply sent. The other part of the equation is perfect love. God is not just perfectly just, he is perfectly loving. So he sent his Son to die in our place and take our punishment on himself. This is the remedy. This same offer of redemption is available universally to anyone who will accept it. Therefore, anybody who chooses the remedy is taken into eternal life. Anyway, there is abundant material available to answer just about every question or objection, so I'm not really the best person to lay out everything. I just wanted to make sure you understood that this option existed, and give you a way to find out for yourself. I hope you at least consider what I suggested. It is possible to have fellowship with the Living God through acceptance of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin. And sin is something that's about as evident in this world as design.Chance Ratcliff
May 2, 2013
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Billmaz:
Eric, with all due respect, and I mean that, you have to be kidding me. I have given you several examples of how I would improve the human organism. The human genome is imperfect, we all, I hope, acknowledge that. For you to say that we, between the two of us, can’t come up with a hundred, nay a thousand, improvements, is preposterous.
Great. But I'll make it easy; I won't ask for thousands. Give me just a couple of specific improvements you would make. Not in broad vague strokes like "the heart should be a parallel system, not a linear one." Tell me the details. What would be involved in making the changes? What additional developmental resources and restraints would be required? How would your proposed change impact other systems? What other drawbacks or possible negatives would your proposed solution impose? What additional resources would be required to maintain the new system through the life of the organism and how do those compare with the existing system? What are the engineering tradeoffs? How would the system hold up over thousands or millions of years of lineal descent? Look, I don't dispute that nearly any physical system can be improved. I have some involvement with systems design and am regularly challenged to think about why we don't have higher throughput, a faster processor, more graphics capability, the latest switching fabric, lower power consumption, etc., etc. Designs always -- inevitably -- require tradeoffs in terms of time, resource costs, maintenance, etc. So it gets pretty tiring to hear people waving their arms about some allegedly imperfect design, when they haven't the faintest clue how or whether it would make sense to implement some alternate design. And usually all they offer (no offense, but this is all you've done here so far too) is make some broad statement about "gee, the system would be better if it had x" without offering any substantive details. As a designer, that rings incredibly hollow to me. Further, the conclusion that is so often drawn from an "imperfect" design -- that God wouldn't have done it -- is a purely theological/philosophical argument that has nothing to do with the science. Yet even on that theological/philosophical point, there are several possible reasons for imperfect design that quickly jump to mind without even breaking a sweat: (i) the designer isn't personally capable of producing a more perfect design, (ii) the designer was constrained by certain physical parameters that resulted in compromises to the design, (iii) the design wasn't intended to be perfect, but only "good" or good enough, (iv) the design has degraded over time, (v) the designer isn't interested in making a "perfect" design and perhaps even intends the design to break down over a certain amount of time, or (vi) the designer was not attempting to provide an environment of comfort, ease, and everlasting health, but perhaps to provide an environment in which to experience pain, sorrow, discomfort, and ultimately death. Again, these are interesting questions in their own right, but they do not have to be dealt with as part of intelligent design proper, and intelligent design has no obligation to go there, however much people may cry out for answers to such questions.Eric Anderson
May 2, 2013
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Thanks chance. Now respond to some of my comments. Don't leave me hanging.billmaz
May 2, 2013
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billmaz, here's how to go about embedding a quote. Typing this in a comment, <blockquote>quotation</blockquote> Will produce this:
quotation
Likewise you can do these: <strong>strong text</strong> produces strong text <em>emphasized text</em> produces emphasized text <strike>strikethrough text</strike> produces strikethrough text That's most of the common ones. :)Chance Ratcliff
May 2, 2013
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Chance, thank you for the privilege of talking to you. You know, I wish that someone would teach me how to bring your quotes up like you guys do into my post. Anyway, you said, “Does quantum mechanics seek to define the identity behind the consciousness, or does it rather infer the role of consciousness by its effects on matter, as observed?” Quantum mechanics tries to do whatever it can. If it can define the identity behind consciousness it will, but as of now it can only “infer the role of consciousness by its effects on matter, as observed,” as you state. It has limitations, but not self-imposed! It tries to get to the bottom of it, as much as it can. It is different from ID because it does not limit itself. It goes on. Regarding Christianity, I’ve not rejected it, as you propose, I’ve just observed it, from a distance. I don’t reject anything since, like Socrates, I know nothing. I think we all need a little humility, and admit that we really don’t know anything. We believe, some of us, but belief is not knowledge. Regarding Christianity’s claims of being severe with regard to crossing over, I don’t believe in a severe God. I don’t think any god would do anything to His children that I would not do to mine, and I’m only human. I would never condemn my children to an eternity of suffering, no matter how bad or ignorant they were. Severity has always been a part of religion that I’ve rejected out of hand. No God could be severe. He, above all else, has to be understanding of the ignorant human condition He has placed us in. And, might I reiterate, He placed us in this human condition, not you or I.billmaz
May 2, 2013
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billmaz,
"If quantum mechanics says that consciousness is required to “collapse” a wave function, physicists go forward (as they have) and try to define consciousness (which they’ve tried to do, unsuccessfully) in order to get to the bottom of things."
Does quantum mechanics seek to define the identity behind the consciousness, or does it rather infer the role of consciousness by its effects on matter, as observed? This isn't drastically different from the limitations of ID as follows directly from its methodology.
"When we do pass over to the other side, I don’t thing it will look like anything we’ve ever been taught in church or school. It has to be grander than that."
If you've already rejected Christianity, and are not willing to reexamine it, then there may not be much more for me to say. (I usually avoid theological discussions but sometimes they are warranted by certain comments.) However I think this point should be stated. Christianity's claims are severe with regard to crossing over. Once you do, it's too late to make the decision. "Just as a man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people;" (Hebrews 9:27-28a) For that reason and others, it's important to consider carefully the choice to accept or reject Christ:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his hone and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." -- John 3:16-19
You appear to have a strong desire to know and fellowship with God. I believe the way to make the introduction is that which I've laid out. Making a leap of faith with regard to asking God directly about the truth of Jesus Christ is how that door may be opened to you. This is my personal take based on personal experience. With that said, I'll refrain from further theological discussion unless prompted. Thanks for your courtesy, billmaz. :)Chance Ratcliff
May 2, 2013
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Chance, "It’s not disingenuous at all. It follows directly from ID methodology, which deals with properties of the effects of intelligence, not the identity of the designing intelligence." I'm sorry, but I think that your idea is self-restrictive in order for you not to be placed in a position to take a “religious” point of view. If quantum mechanics says that consciousness is required to “collapse” a wave function, physicists go forward (as they have) and try to define consciousness (which they’ve tried to do, unsuccessfully) in order to get to the bottom of things. You don’t just stop at one point and say “That’s all I’m trying to prove, that intelligence is the source of evolution” without going forward to research and try to define what this intelligence is. That is the scientific (and I dare say, the human) quest. I understand, because of the criticism involved, that you want to stay away from the implications of ID, but these implications are not just philosophical, they are real, and they are scientific. It goes to the heart of ID. Eric, with all due respect, and I mean that, you have to be kidding me. I have given you several examples of how I would improve the human organism. The human genome is imperfect, we all, I hope, acknowledge that. For you to say that we, between the two of us, can’t come up with a hundred, nay a thousand, improvements, is preposterous. And for you to say that it is not an obligation for ID to answer questions of who and what and where the designer is contradicts scientific thinking. We always want to know who and what and where. That is the driving force of knowledge. That fact that you insist on restricting your horizon is an acknowledgment that the implications are too vast, and too difficult, to face scientifically. Look, I am aware of the politics involved in all this. But I’m not interested in all that. I’m interested in getting to the bottom of ID and its implications. Chance, thank you for your prayers and your kind thoughts. I was brought up as an Eastern Orthodox but only marginally, and have been able to only reach the point of believing Jesus to be a prophet, equal to Mohamed and Buddha and others. The words of Jesus are similar to words said by other prophets. That is not a small feat. I believe that prophets do have a glimpse of the reality, but only a glimpse. When we do pass over to the other side, I don’t thing it will look like anything we’ve ever been taught in church or school. It has to be grander than that.billmaz
May 2, 2013
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