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How ID sheds light on the classic free will dilemma

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The standard argument against free will is that it is incoherent.  It claims that a free agent must either be determined or non-determined.  If the free agent is determined, then it cannot be responsible for its choices.  On the other hand, if it is non-determined, then its choices are random and uncontrolled.  Neither case preserves the notion of responsibility that proponents of free will wish to maintain.  Thus, since there is no sensible way to define free will, it is incoherent. [1]

Note that this is not really an argument against free will, but merely an argument that we cannot talk about free will.  So, if someone were to produce another way of talking about free will the argument is satisfied.

Does ID help us in this case?  It appears so.  If we relabel “determinism” and “non-determinism” as “necessity” and “chance”, ID shows us that there is a third way we might talk about free will.

In the universe of ID there are more causal agents than the duo of necessity and chance.  There is also intelligent causality.  Dr. Dembski demonstrates this through his notion of the explanatory filter.  While the tractability of the explanatory filter may be up for debate, it is clear that the filter is a coherent concept.  The very fact that there is debate over whether it can be applied in a tractable manner means the filter is well defined enough to be debated.

The explanatory filter consists of a three stage process to detect design in an event.  First, necessity must be eliminated as a causal explanation.  This means the event cannot have been the precisely determined outcome of a prior state.  Second, chance must be eliminated.  As such, the event must be very unlikely to have occurred, such that it isn’t possible to have queried half or more of the event space with the number of queries available.

At this point, it may appear we’ve arrived at our needed third way, and quite easily at that.  We merely must deny that an event is caused by chance or necessity.  However, things are not so simple.  The problem is that these criteria do not specify an event.  If an event does meet these criteria, then the unfortunate implication is so does every other event in the event space.  In the end the criteria become a distinction without a difference, and we are thrust right back into the original dilemma.  Removing chance and necessity merely gives us improbability (P < 0.5), also called “complexity” in ID parlance.

What we need is a third criteria, called specificity.  This criteria can be thought of as a sort of compression, it describes the event in simpler terms.  One example is a STOP sign.  The basic material of the sign is a set of particles in a configuration.  To describe the sign in terms of the configuration is a very arduous and lengthy task, essentially a list of each particle’s type and position.  However, we can describe the sign in a much simpler manner by providing a computer, which knows how to compose particles into a sign according to a pattern language, with the instructions to write the word STOP on a sign.

According to a concept called Kolmogrov Complexity [2], such machines and instructions form a compression of the event, and thus specify a subset of the event space in an objective manner.  This solves the previous problem where no events were specified.  Now, only a small set of events are specified.  While KC is not a necessary component of Dr. Dembski’s explanatory filter, it can be considered a sufficient criteria for specificity.

With this third criteria of specificity, we now have a distinction that makes a difference.  Namely, it shows we still have something even after removing chance and necessity: we have complex specified information (CSI).  CSI has two properties that make it useful for the free will debate.  First, it is a definition of an event that is neither caused by necessity or chance.  As such, it is not susceptible to the original dilemma.  Furthermore, it provides a subtle and helpful distinction for the argument.  CSI does not avoid the distinction between determinism and non-determinism.  It still falls within the non-determinism branch.  However, CSI shows that randomness is not an exhaustive description of non-determinism.  Instead, the non-determinism branch further splits into a randomness branch and a CSI branch.

The second advantage of CSI is that it is a coherent concept defined with mathematical precision.  And, with a coherently definition, the original argument vanishes.  As pointed out in the beginning of the article, the classic argument against free will is not an argument against something.  It is merely an argument that we cannot talk about something because we do not possess sufficient language.  Properly understood, the classical argument is more of a question, asking what is the correct terminology.  But, with the advent of CSI we now have at least one answer to the classical question about free will.

So, how can we coherently talk about a responsible free will if we can only say it is either determined and necessary, or non-determined and potentially random?  One precise answer is that CSI describes an entity that is both non-determined while at the same time non-random.

——————-

[1] A rundown of many different forms of this argument is located here:http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/standard_argument.html

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity

Comments
Ciphertext,
In ruminating further, I believe I understand a “sticking” point you have regarding “DNA as code”. Is it fair to assume you object to the notion that DNA is carrying a message? And by message I mean: Message def. #1 : a communication containing some information, news, advice, request, or the like, sent by messenger, radio, telephone, or other means.
Partially, but DNA is also not a medium on which a message is stored. DNA does not "communicate" with anything; the action of transcription is purely mechanical.
My understanding is that to say “DNA is code”, is simply stating that you view DNA as the complete instruction set (i.e. source code) for developing the physical structures of a human form (assuming the DNA provided is human). In this instance, the message transmitted is most likely nothing more than instructions. How those instructions are interpreted depends upon the system (cell, essentially) reading the instructions. Is that not the case? Could a “spleen” cell read the human DNA and use it to attempt to make a “liver” cell? My biology is a bit rusty (I’m more versed in computer programming).
This is my understanding of how "DNA is code" is casually used. And as I noted, I'm fine with this use. The problem I have is when the above is equivocated with computer code. The two are not the same thing.
RE: Key/Lock example I believe I take a less narrow view of the key/lock system. I think you could make a persuasive argument that the key is imparting a coded message. Non human readable obviously and quite specific. The message is useful only to the lock for which it was intended. In the case of mechanical key systems, it can be copied quite easily with varying degrees of message fidelity. The message only makes sense to a human, once they impart a meaning to it. I prefer to associate the human readable symbol “now”, with the message that the key is delivering. The message isn’t really “about” anything more than it is a directive. A very, very, basic command. The lock performs it’s action upon receiving that command. In the case of most locking mechanisms it cycles between “retain control” (or “locked” if you prefer) and “release control” (or “unlocked”) upon receiving the command from the key.
To be fair I could actually go along with this, however like all analogies, it isn't perfect and breaks down upon close scrutiny of certain detailed exceptions. So in general the idea that a key contains a message for a lock is fine, but in specific, particularly if we get into the details of information theory, the analogy becomes inaccurate. That's the point I've been addressing with my "DNA is code" comments. Certainly the analogy works at a superficial level. But if we then try to take that to a detailed level and compare it more specifically to the concept of coding for computer programs, it becomes inaccurate.Doveton
July 19, 2011
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@Doveton RE: Symbols and Code In ruminating further, I believe I understand a "sticking" point you have regarding "DNA as code". Is it fair to assume you object to the notion that DNA is carrying a message? And by message I mean: Message def. #1 : a communication containing some information, news, advice, request, or the like, sent by messenger, radio, telephone, or other means. My understanding is that to say "DNA is code", is simply stating that you view DNA as the complete instruction set (i.e. source code) for developing the physical structures of a human form (assuming the DNA provided is human). In this instance, the message transmitted is most likely nothing more than instructions. How those instructions are interpreted depends upon the system (cell, essentially) reading the instructions. Is that not the case? Could a "spleen" cell read the human DNA and use it to attempt to make a "liver" cell? My biology is a bit rusty (I'm more versed in computer programming). RE: Key/Lock example I believe I take a less narrow view of the key/lock system. I think you could make a persuasive argument that the key is imparting a coded message. Non human readable obviously and quite specific. The message is useful only to the lock for which it was intended. In the case of mechanical key systems, it can be copied quite easily with varying degrees of message fidelity. The message only makes sense to a human, once they impart a meaning to it. I prefer to associate the human readable symbol "now", with the message that the key is delivering. The message isn't really "about" anything more than it is a directive. A very, very, basic command. The lock performs it's action upon receiving that command. In the case of most locking mechanisms it cycles between "retain control" (or "locked" if you prefer) and "release control" (or "unlocked") upon receiving the command from the key. ciphertext
July 19, 2011
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Although there is a completely different sense in which it is (I now realise Dr Nim IS digital - I'd forgotten how cool it was). DNA does have "flip-flops" but they aren't the bases, they are at the level of the genes. Genes can be turned on and on, and turning off one gene can stop it suppressing another, so in that sense, a cell really is like Dr Nim - which protein is expressed is contingent on the settings of a large number of switches that respond to chemical input. But that's not usually the sense in which DNA is considered like a computer. The "bits" in the sense I am using it are actually the genes, which can be in an off state or an on state. If we want to regard DNA as "quaternary" code, then the "switcher" isn't in the cell at all, but in the environment - a very attenuated metaphor. And it works in a weird way - the switches are randomly reset, and the environment "chooses" the settings it likes. Then those settings go on and make critters, which in turn reset a whole lot more settings, from which, again, the environment "chooses" the one it likes. So the environment is the programmer. This is true in a real sense. It's the answer to where the information in the genome came from (or, at least, the Darwinian answer).Elizabeth Liddle
July 19, 2011
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Actually, maybe it is digital. But I'm still not convinced DNA is!Elizabeth Liddle
July 19, 2011
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Or, if a cell is a computer, so is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._NIM wchich it sort of is. But it isn't digital.Elizabeth Liddle
July 19, 2011
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tbh, I don't think that digital metaphors work for cells at all. They are automatons rather than computers. DNA does indeed "code for" proteins, but it does so mechanically, by means of a specific set of objects, called tRNA molecules, in which one end mates with triplets of RNA (made using DNA as a jig, effectively) and the other with amino acid. These are then physically shunted through a machine that mates the amino acids to produce a protein and release the tRNA molecules to be reused. I don't think the proteins, or the amino acids are any more "machine code" or "digital" than DNA is. In fact, the whole thing is analog, not digital - we are just tempted to call it digital because the building blocks are discrete molecules. But so are the cogs and jigs and cams and racks of an automaton. Which, like a cell, is full of information, and information transfer systems. I think the digital part is a red herring.Elizabeth Liddle
July 19, 2011
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I've always said that DNA is alphabetic, not digital. I haven't yet been persuaded otherwise. But it contains information, on almost any definition.Elizabeth Liddle
July 19, 2011
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KF,
What is the problem here, other than that the implication is that we have coded digital information in the heart of the living cell and by far predating human life and technology?
The problem here is that I can't find any evidence that DNA is digital code for anything.
The real issue is not with the reality of information in the macromolecules of life, but in its implications.
Not for me. I am not disputing that DNA imparts information.
If that is the problem, it is — frankly — willfully obtuse to try to throw up mountain out of molehill objections to the information technology used in life forms, in the face of what has been well established, decades ago.
I've not said anything about information being an issue. Neither has Lizzie from what I've read, so I'm not sure where your complaint above comes from.
It is time to deal with implications, not to pretend that the past several decades of work since the early 1950s and even before, did not happen.
Then we're in agreement on that point.Doveton
July 19, 2011
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KF, The key/lock is a better analogy for DNA/tRNA binding and information transfer than computer code. The only difference of course is that once the key and lock align, the lock pins then create another key as a mirror on the on the other side, which in turn is aligned to create a polypeptide. So your steps 1-6 above are fine. You then get to this:
7 –> We see a digital (discrete state) string system, based on 4-state [GCAT/U] or 20-state [AA] elements.
Who is "we"? None of the geneticists I know see this and certainly don't either.
8 –> The specificity tied to functions is informational, and D/RNA sequences have an implied coded meaning per the rules that are often seen in genetic code tables, at least for the protein coding parts.
What implied coded meaning? Nothing is coded. Your own key/lock analogy above illustrates that nothing is coded, unless you think that a key is some kind of code and a lock is some kind of translator. If that is the case, what "message" does your house key hold and how is it any different from your car key?
9 –> The information stored in the strings can be measured in essentially the same way as that stored in strings of text on a page or in a computer memory or on a CD can be measured.
"Essentially the same way"? Feel free to demonstrate such a measurement then.
10 –> Indeed this has been routinely done for decades by investigators such as Yockey et al.
Could you provide a reference for Yockey's (or anyone elses' work) measurement of DNA information. Thanks!Doveton
July 19, 2011
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KF,
Pardon me, but right now you come across a bit oddly, as this stuff is not rocket science. What do the GCAT/U elements in a string of DNA do, that is materially different from what the 1,s and 0?s do in conventional representations of PC codes?
1s and 0s in a binary assembly represent second level symbols (letters, words, images, etc). GCAT/U do not represent any symbols whatsoever.
(Hint, cf text, illustrations and vid here. Then, come back to what Crick was saying. Say slowly: “three- LETTER codons.” Cf here. Also here. BTW, the tRNA end that latches to the AA locks through a standard CCA end coupler to the COOH end of the AA. It is the loading enzyme that ensures the right AA goes on the right tRNA. This is an exercise in code translation.)
No, it isn't. There is no code translation. This is simple molecule binding that has a mechanical reaction.Doveton
July 19, 2011
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F/N: Let's try 1 --> Pull a Yale type lock key from your pocket and look at the sequence of prongs. This is a string type data structure with coded elements in a chain. It works by key-lock fitting to push pins in the lock cylinder so the cylinder can rotate. 2 --> DNA, and RNA are similarly string structures [four state], with key-lock fitting, within the DNA strands, to mRNA and then to tRNA. 3 --> In the Ribosome, proteins are made codon by codon, with AUG as start then successive codons as elongating AAs until a stop codon triggers termination. 4 --> AAs are attached through matching anticodons on tRNAs, with the AA held by the COOH end on the opposite side of the tRNA through the standard CCA coupler. 5 --> As a result, proteins in their primary structure are strings too, generally with 20-state elements. The sequence is controlled by mRNA. 6 --> Proteins then fold and may clump and be activated, to perform their tasks in the living form. 7 --> We see a digital (discrete state) string system, based on 4-state [GCAT/U] or 20-state [AA] elements. 8 --> The specificity tied to functions is informational, and D/RNA sequences have an implied coded meaning per the rules that are often seen in genetic code tables, at least for the protein coding parts. 9 --> The information stored in the strings can be measured in essentially the same way as that stored in strings of text on a page or in a computer memory or on a CD can be measured. 10 --> Indeed this has been routinely done for decades by investigators such as Yockey et al. __________ What is the problem here, other than that the implication is that we have coded digital information in the heart of the living cell and by far predating human life and technology? The real issue is not with the reality of information in the macromolecules of life, but in its implications. If that is the problem, it is -- frankly -- willfully obtuse to try to throw up mountain out of molehill objections to the information technology used in life forms, in the face of what has been well established, decades ago. It is time to deal with implications, not to pretend that the past several decades of work since the early 1950s and even before, did not happen. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 18, 2011
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Doveton: Pardon me, but right now you come across a bit oddly, as this stuff is not rocket science. What do the GCAT/U elements in a string of DNA do, that is materially different from what the 1,s and 0's do in conventional representations of PC codes? (Hint, cf text, illustrations and vid here. Then, come back to what Crick was saying. Say slowly: "three- LETTER codons." Cf here. Also here. BTW, the tRNA end that latches to the AA locks through a standard CCA end coupler to the COOH end of the AA. It is the loading enzyme that ensures the right AA goes on the right tRNA. This is an exercise in code translation.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 18, 2011
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Ciphertext,
Perhaps we should “baseline” the definitions for symbol and code, such that our (technically the discussion thread’s) conversation can be more productive.
Very good suggestion. Your summary seems quite accurate and well-stated btw. I agree with the definitions as you've laid them out.Doveton
July 18, 2011
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@Doveton Though, I suggest this as a benefit to all reading the post. RE: Post 195
No question. However, if that is the case, the question then should be, is the definition of code being used in the thread appropriate for the comparison to computer code? That’s the issue I was attempting to point out.
Perhaps we should "baseline" the definitions for symbol and code, such that our (technically the discussion thread's) conversation can be more productive. It (base lining the definitions) has the added benefit of "calibrating" the conversation, such that the conversation will remain civil in tone. I find that once frustration enters into the mix, the communicable parties become less and less civil in their tone, for so long as the frustration continues. Let me take a stab at offering the first definitions for both "symbol" and "code". Symbol, def. #2-- a letter, figure, or other character or mark or a combination of letters or the like used to designate something: the algebraic symbol x; the chemical symbol Au. Code, def. #1 -- a system for communication by telegraph, heliograph, etc., in which long and short sounds, light flashes, etc., are used to symbolize the content of a message: Morse code. Code (verb), to translate (a message) into a code; encode.
Not there isn’t, and indeed that is my point. Pseudo-code is the basis of how computer coding works, but is not analogous to how DNA works.
That is a reasonable observation regarding computing. However, inherent in that perspective is the concept of "abstraction". Usually, you name a particular "level" of abstraction based upon its symbology. In brief, the lowest level of abstraction is machine code. Which, in the world of binary computing (virtually all digital computers in operation today) means "0's" and "1's". (Truthfully, you could get much lower to "frequencies" of electric current, as that is really what the 0 and 1 represent in the computing hardware.) When you step out of the machine code realm, you have to make use of compiler software. One of the drawbacks to abstraction. But, it frees the programmer from having to know machine code rather than simply to know ABOUT machine code. The reasons are many for why you would want to employ abstraction, but chief among them is the gains in efficiency and functionality you obtain by doing so. You are using a "sort" of pseudo code with respect to machine code when you write a program using one of the many computer programming languages available (i.e Java, C, Perl, C#, etc...). Essentially, you've traded the symbols of 0 and 1 for other symbols such as: PUT, GET, While, For, and Print, to name a few. Those symbols "mean" more, carry more information, than either the 0 or 1. Indeed, you can substitute the instruction desired to be performed by using one PUT symbol versus many, many, many 0's and 1's that require a precise and appropriate arrangement. The compiler, will take the PUT and convert it to machine code. Incidentally, we refer to the collection of "abstracted" symbols (commands) as source code. This level of abstraction is where I believe the "DNA is code" proponents are suggesting DNA resides. Certainly, the DNA strand itself isn't a biological equivalent of machine code. I believe that those would be the proteins themselves. However, if you consider the DNA to be an ordered assembly of proteins that symbolize the instructions (i.e. source code) to be given to cellular components for the construction of other proteins; the notion of DNA being an abstracted form of biological "code" does seem at least "tenable".ciphertext
July 18, 2011
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Lizzie,
Butting back in (very temporarily) I don’t think doveton’s capable of serious abstract thought and I’m almost positive EL is not.
Well, I have to disagree. I think we both are. In fact I’m sure we all are. But I do think that insinuating that your opponent isn’t is a exceptionally cheap way to try to score a point.
Well put, though I confess I reacted to this a bit differently. Such statements can indeed be meant to score points, but on the off chance it's a genuine opinion, my thought is that those who think I (or you or anyone else for that matter) am incapable of serious abstract thought are under no obligation to stoop to my level. Hey...there are plenty of other folks out here to discuss things with; life is too short to waste time in discussions that aren't stimulating.Doveton
July 18, 2011
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Mung,
So the questions are: How do “0? and “1? attain their status as symbols?
Humans assign that status.
Where does the assignment for what “0? and “1? represent come from?
Humans.
Who or what assigns meaning to symbols?
Humans.
Who or what determines that symbol x conveys information about y?
Humans determine both the meaning of symbol x and the syntax of the use of symbol x.
What is information?
There are a number of definitions. Here's one I particularly like: 2 a (1) : knowledge obtained from investigation, study, or instruction (2) : intelligence, news (3) : facts, data From Merriam-Webster
The symbols conferring the message “type the word “what” on your computer” have substance – we both agree. Unless one actually types the word “what” on a keyboard connected to a computer. At that point, there are no more symbols. Or substance. Once again, this doesn't make any sense to me. Are you suggesting that the typed characters, "w", "h", "a", and "t" are not symbols of binary constructs? Are you really under the impression that they have no substance on your monitor and in the computer's memory? What do you think your monitor does?Doveton
July 18, 2011
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Mung,
The symbols conferring the message “type the word “what” on your computer” have substance – we both agree.
Unless you received that message on your computer. In that case, no symbols. Or no substance.
Could you elaborate on this statement. It does not make sense to me in the context of the discussion.Doveton
July 18, 2011
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KF,
Tell that to Crick:
“Now we believe that the DNA is a code. That is, the order of bases (the letters) makes one gene different from another gene (just as one page of print is different from another)” [March 19, 1953 letter to son, Michael about DNA.]
And? Watson referring to DNA as "code" in a casual letter to his son goes right along with what I noted as well. I don't see the problem.
What is plainly happening is that since the implications of there being a definite digital code in DNA are quite evident but inconvenient to your position, you are now trying to deny the antecedent to evade the consequent. Only to end in increasingly patent absurdity.
Not at all - I for one would welcome such an implication if it actually existed, for it would be a monumentally fascinating discovery, to say nothing of an exciting opportunity for research. However, given what we have discovered, this just plainly isn't the case.Doveton
July 18, 2011
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Mung and tg: Just found these little droppings on my pillow:
But really, is it because we have a different point of view? Or could it perhaps be the actual nature of the “arguments”? I’ve suspected for some time that many of Elizabeth’s posts are fueled by a certain chemical not known for it’s contribution to rational thought.
I suggest it’s because we not only have a different point of view, but very different fundamental assumptions underlying our arguments. I’m still prepared to try to find out what these are, but it isn’t helped by the kind of snide comment I note above. Nor your repeated accusations that I am lying.
Butting back in (very temporarily) I don’t think doveton’s capable of serious abstract thought and I’m almost positive EL is not.
Well, I have to disagree. I think we both are. In fact I’m sure we all are. But I do think that insinuating that your opponent isn’t is a exceptionally cheap way to try to score a point. Not pretty. And not, tbh, indicative of the serious abstract thought of which I’m sure you are capable.Elizabeth Liddle
July 18, 2011
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Ciphertext,
Perhaps the issue is that there is a mismatch in how you defined “code” as it is being used in this thread, and how others have defined it?
No question. However, if that is the case, the question then should be, is the definition of code being used in the thread appropriate for the comparison to computer code? That's the issue I was attempting to point out.
I think what you are describing in your post is symbolic code also known as “pseudo-code”. However, I don’t believe there is an analogue for its application in the biological sciences is there?
Not there isn't, and indeed that is my point. Pseudo-code is the basis of how computer coding works, but is not analogous to how DNA works.Doveton
July 18, 2011
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Butting back in (very temporarily) I don't think doveton's capable of serious abstract thought and I'm almost positive EL is not. Without revisiting the WWWest example, who couldn't figure that out as an ILLUSTRATION of the point. Carry on gents. You are doing great! :-) p.s. You may want to ask doveton how to explain the answers to your questions in terms of general relativity, QM, the Standard Model, and/or the four fundamental forces in nature. That should be fun. He's probably already got it dodged. The man's a wizard when it comes to E&E. (escape and evasion we used to call it)tgpeeler
July 17, 2011
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So Doveton appears to agree that "0" and "1" are symbols, and that as symbols what they represent can be changed, and that as symbols what they mean can be assigned, and that as symbols they can convey information about something, say, the state of a carbon atom. So the questions are: How do "0" and "1" attain their status as symbols? Where does the assignment for what "0" and "1" represent come from? Who or what assigns meaning to symbols? Who or what determines that symbol x conveys information about y? What is information?
The symbols conferring the message “type the word “what” on your computer” have substance – we both agree.
Unless one actually types the word "what" on a keyboard connected to a computer. At that point, there are no more symbols. Or substance.Mung
July 17, 2011
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thanks tgpeeler. And Chris Doyle even more so, lol. But really, is it because we have a different point of view? Or could it perhaps be the actual nature of the "arguments"? I've suspected for some time that many of Elizabeth's posts are fueled by a certain chemical not known for it's contribution to rational thought.Mung
July 17, 2011
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OMG. Upright, KF, null, GP, Mung... you guys have the patience of Job. Beam me up, Scottie...tgpeeler
July 16, 2011
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So Doveton makes an appearance in #106:
Symbols are made up of matter. Ergo, they fall under the science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions. I can’t think of any symbol out there that isn’t made up of matter or energy.
Doveton 129:
The symbols conferring the message “type the word “what” on your computer” have substance – we both agree.
Upright BiPed 164:
Doveton, does your computer process symbols?
Doveton 168:
No.
Doveton 129:
The symbols conferring the message “type the word “what” on your computer” have substance – we both agree.
Unless you received that message on your computer. In that case, no symbols. Or no substance.Mung
July 15, 2011
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Nullasalus:
No, I’ve built a position for myself where the data and evidence support my view.
My point precisely :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 15, 2011
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Consider that you have just boxed yourself into a position from which you cannot be wrong. That is not a good position to be in. No, I've built a position for myself where the data and evidence support my view. Oh, it's terrible to be in a position where the data supports me, and you're stumbling into accidental support of my claims by badly flubbing some pretty basic claims. Woe is me. ;) I haven't just been sitting here merely asserting that Dennett's position is incoherent and that you have misunderstandings. I've happily provided references, I've quoted Dennett directly, I've pointed out what his views entail. You've danced around this, and even dove for the bizarre move of 'Well intentionality and qualia are the same thing for Dennett', which is a little like saying that a plus sign and a multiplication sign are 'pretty much the same thing for Leibniz'. You are saying, in effect: No, I'm providing evidence - direct quotes from Dennett, buttressed by arguments and observations - supporting my interpretation of him, and criticizing his thoughts based on those quotes and references to his work. You've responded by weakly objecting, and screwing up Dennett's own relatively simple claims. Whether it's due to simply not knowing what you're talking about or actively bluffing, I can't say. Now you're playing the old chestnut of "The one who insists that 2 + 2 = 4 is a fanatic because he's certain he's right. The one who entertains the possibility that 2 + 2 = 5, blue, or cow is open-minded and should be lauded". In short, I have not 'boxed myself into a position where I cannot be wrong'. I've provided evidence - and you've accidentally provided me evidence - that I'm right. You've done a pretty poor job of replying to this, so now you're falling back to the tried and true method of 'Maybe I'm right, maybe you're right - who's to say! You'll admit it's logically possible for me to be right though, yes?' to draw the subject away from that inconvenient 'evidence and argument' stuff. I don't expect you to cop to this - run of the mill internet, really. But hopefully something will sink in for you down the road.nullasalus
July 15, 2011
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Nullasalus: There's probably not a lot of point in continuing this conversation, but let me just take one of your points:
The indications are you don’t even understand Dennett on this point, to say nothing of agreeing with him. Again, the fact that you thought Dennett’s intentionality paper was about qualia drives home the point that you really don’t understand some fundamental aspects of these discussions, period, not to mention Dennett’s own views. When you affirmed that you think intentionality is just another word for qualia for Dennett, that pretty much verified that again.
Consider that you have just boxed yourself into a position from which you cannot be wrong. That is not a good position to be in. You are saying, in effect: Dennett is inconsistent Lizzie thinks Dennett is consistent Therefore Lizzie must have misunderstood Dennett. Because Lizzie has misunderstood Dennett, Lizzie has demonstrated that she is incapable of understanding that Dennett is inconsistent. Therefore Lizzie's claim that Dennett is consistent is likely to be wrong. This supports the case that Dennett is inconsistent. But there is another possiblity: Dennett is consistent. Lizzie has understood Dennett Nullasalus thinks Dennett is inconsistent. Therefore Nullasalus has misunderstood Dennett. Good night :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 15, 2011
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Doveton: Tell that to Crick:
"Now we believe that the DNA is a code. That is, the order of bases (the letters) makes one gene different from another gene (just as one page of print is different from another)" [March 19, 1953 letter to son, Michael about DNA.]
What is plainly happening is that since the implications of there being a definite digital code in DNA are quite evident but inconvenient to your position, you are now trying to deny the antecedent to evade the consequent. Only to end in increasingly patent absurdity. "If you need to get up out of the hole, stop digging in further . . . " G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 15, 2011
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For a start, why would Dennett talk about a “self-forming act” if he denied that selves existed? Well, you could, I suppose, conclude (as you did, unexpectedly to me) that this just means that Dennett is inconsistent and incoherent. Yeah, I think I'm going to stick with "Dennett is inconsistent and incoherent" - based on a plain reading of the man's thoughts there and elsewhere - rather than go with the word of a person who clearly either doesn't understand or cannot accept what Dennett is thinking. "Self-forming acts" for Dennett are metaphor. They are something derived, with their meaning assigned. What I said was: "There’s not even a fact of the matter that persons or selves exist. All that exists is metaphor and convenient ways of speaking. The only “selves” that exist are what are treated as selves by convention. And there’s no convention other than what’s treated as convention by another convention." If you want to say "selves exist, because I'm assigning that meaning to that configuration of atoms over there, and that's all it takes for something to exist", you go right ahead. It just exposes why the metaphors and such are so important for your position: Because once you speak bluntly, it becomes clear how empty and incoherent your view is. Well, it does seem like it. Yes, of course the thing has no meaning when divorced from a mind. But who divorced it from a mind? Not me. I said that the thing had a history, that history included the person who wrote the list, and that person has a purpose “in mind” when she wrote that list. Hence my answer “yes”. And there it is. Of course, I asked you if there was a fact of the matter about the list, irrespective of what anyone labels it. So of course you throw out an answer of 'yes' and stipulate 'so long as someone labels it'. And I’d say that what we think we are thinking is indeed what we are thinking. What else would it be? (serious question). What we derive them to be thinking. Again, you don't get Dennett, and you're missing out on a key understanding he is trying to offer. And apparently you're doing so because you acknowledge that if Dennett is really saying what he's saying, then what he's saying is ridiculous. I am not aware that Dennett thinks any differently, and it is certainly explicit in Hofstadter, who seems at least to think he agrees with Dennett. Of course you're not. I mean, Dennett only explicitly says that all meaning is derived meaning. He only denies original intentionality, he only explicit says that there is no 'fact of the matter' what a person is thinking other than what we derive them to be thinking. Really, you're missing all this because you're quite reasonably responding to it with "That's insane", then making the additional move of, "So therefore he can't really be saying THAT. No, he has to be saying something else entirely." Which is leading you off into vagueness land, where all you can really do is gesture in the air and mumble "emergence" or "recursion". Seriously - entertain for a moment the possibility that you are wrong, and that you have misread Dennett deeply on this point. Because I'm giving you his own writings, written clearly, and you're not absorbing them. But his point, AFAICT, is not the multivalence of the list, but the fact that if you write something on a list, the list derives its intentionality (what it is “about”) from the use to which you put it (reminding you what to buy at the shop). If, instead of writing a list, you simply make a list “in your head” (perhaps using your “phonological loop” – that’s what I do) then that list in your head also has “derived intentionality” in just the same way as the shopping list does – from the use to which you put it. Indeed, that’s exactly what he says: No, it's not 'exactly what he says'. Dennett's statement applies not only to the list, but also *to our interpretation of the list*. What you don't appreciate is that the uses you talk about - 'I'm using this list as a grocery list' - is yet another thought, and yet another thing that must be interpreted, yet another thing with derived meaning. The very act of 'making a list in your head' is also derived, as is whether or not there is a list 'in your head'. When you affirm that certain thoughts are indisputably about this or that - that you are thinking about Texas right now, period, no interpretation needed, and a third party interpretation that says you're thinking about daffodils is incorrect - you are parting with Dennett, because Dennett has no room for people's thoughts matter-of-factly being about one certain thing. If a thought/brain state X is truly "about" some other thing, and if it's not merely "about" it in the same way that "eggs" on a list is "about" (a shopping list, a recipe, a poem, nothing at all), then that aboutness is intrinsic - and Dennett is wrong, and materialism itself is wrong. Dennett, is seems to me, is simply saying that when Jones thinks he is seeing a something called a horse, he thinks he is seeing a something called a horse. No, that's not the point. Do you think his opponents are arguing against the claim that when Jones 'thinks is he seeing a something called a horse, he thinks he is seeing a something called a horse'? Do you think his opponents are arguing that this is all about what we can discover by talking to Jones? Come on. Dennett's right there saying "However hard it may be to determine exactly which state he is in, he is really in one or the other (or perhaps he really is in neither, so violently have we assaulted his cognitive system)." - and then moving on to note that this is the view he (Dennett) is arguing against. When he says "we may grant that one of her conscious states is about the thimble", that's yet another instance of derived meaning. Betsy's state is 'about the thimble' in the same way 'eggs' on the list is about whatever the third party minds derive it to be about. The Betsy example does nothing for you, first because the entire example has to be read through Dennett's quaint looking-glassing of the words involved, from consciousness to thought. But when Dennett talks about Betsy 'looking for the thimble' or 'thinking about the thimble', those words cash out to - they must cash out to, for Dennett - third party interpretation. Derived meaning. This isn't about perceptual states versus representational states. I’ll take Dennett, thanks. And yes, I know it is a continuous loop. Apparently, you don't even know what Dennett is talking about. But I'm not surprised that you wouldn't let a little thing like vicious circularity get in the way of believing something. Sure. But where we are at odds is whether this means that thoughts, love, selves, etc are not “real” – do not exist, which is what you claimed Dennett was arguing. He isn’t. “Derived” does not mean “not real”. Does it? But where we are at odds is whether this means that bigfoot, the loch ness monster, ghosts, etc are not "real" do not exist, which is what you claimed Sagan was arguing. He isn't. "Imaginary" does not mean "not real". Does it? Again, I know that you're not about to let a little thing like vicious circularity muck up your views here, but ideas do have logical consequences. And you so far seem to be struggling to valiantly resist Dennett: You're crying "No! I know what I'm thinking! I have unique, personal, indisputable access to my thoughts and no one else has this access! I'm thinking about love! You can't tell me I'm thinking about something else and be right!" But yes, Elizabeth - I can. According to Dennett. Well, I can be "right", but that too is just another instance of derivation, of interpretation, of assigned meaning. All thought is, because in the end we're all just two-bitsers. According to this view, all we have are metaphors, manners of speaking. There is no deeper, certain reality regarding what anyone is "thinking about", because if there was such a deeper, certain reality, then original intentionality would exist and Dennett's view would be defunct on the spot. Because this seems to me to be the crux of the disagreement, not only between you and Dennett, and between you and me, but between most materialists and non-materialists. The indications are you don't even understand Dennett on this point, to say nothing of agreeing with him. Again, the fact that you thought Dennett's intentionality paper was about qualia drives home the point that you really don't understand some fundamental aspects of these discussions, period, not to mention Dennett's own views. When you affirmed that you think intentionality is just another word for qualia for Dennett, that pretty much verified that again. Non-materialists think that by accounting for such higher order concepts as “love” and “self” and “mind” in terms of fundamental physical processes, materialists are denying their existence – we are “reducing” them to no more than elementary particles. You are not 'accounting for' any of those things physically. I'd say you are eliminating them, but really, at this point your arguments and statements here are such a jumble that I'm starting to realize you're not even aware of what position you yourself are taking. Again: All meaning, for Dennett, is derived meaning. All 'thoughts about' are derived, assigned - and that includes selves, mind, and love. "Donna loves Greg" is nothing but an interpretation, a derivation assigned to acts of the thing I interpret or derive to be Donna and Greg - and my interpretation itself is only an interpretation in virtue of yet another interpretation, and so on unto vicious circularity. The same goes for "Donna hates Greg". So when you say "Love is my God" and "Love is real" - well gosh, EL. That's one interpretation of your thoughts, one meaning someone is deriving. But I can derive something else from the same physical particulars. "EL has embraced a coping mechanism" for example. "EL worships Hate" would be another. And the best part is, since the only meaning and intentionality available is two-bitser intentionality, assigned/derived intentionality, by Dennett I wouldn't be wrong about any of this. There's no original intentionality, no indisputable fact of the matter about what you or me or anyone else is thinking. You're going to have to accept what it means for all intentionality to be derived intentionality. You've swallowed up the vicious circularity part. But really, there's other consequences you're going to have to take too.nullasalus
July 15, 2011
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