Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

They said it: “atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist” — a fatal worldview error of modern evolutionary materialist atheism

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Prof. Dawkins of the UK, a leading evolutionary materialist and atheist

It is an open secret that a major motivation for the commonly encountered, too often angry  rejection of  the design inference is a prior commitment to Lewontinian evolutionary materialistic atheism; a common thread that unites a Sagan, a Lewontin, many members of Science institutions and Faculties of Universities, and of course many leading anti-design advocates like those associated with the US-based National Center for Science Education [NCSE], as well as leading “science” [–> atheism] blogs and Internet forums and the like.

Such atheists also often imagine that they have cornered the market on scientific rationality, common-sense and intelligence, to the point where professor Dawkins of the UK has proposed a new name for atheists: “brights.”

By contrast, he and many others of like ilk view those who object to such views as “ignorant, stupid, insane or . . . wicked.” (Perhaps, that is why one of the atheistical objectors to UD feels free to publicly and falsely accuse me of being a demented child abuser and serial rapist. He clearly cannot see how unhinged, unreasonable, irrational, uncouth, vulgar and rage-blinded his outrageous behaviour is.)

For telling instance, in Lewontin’s notorious 1997  NYRB article, Billions and Billions of Demons, we may see:

. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And, if you wish to try the now routine turnabout false accusation of quote mining, kindly cf. here at UD as well as the above linked.]

The ideologically motivated atheistical, evolutionary materialist a priori is plain.

No wonder Philip Johnson rebutted Lewontin thusly, in his November 1997 reply:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  . . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Consequently,  if we are to put the design inference issue on a level playing field so it can be objectively assessed as a valid scientific inference, we have to first address the fatal flaws of reasoning in the underlying thought that clothes materialistic atheism in the holy lab coat. (And of course,  given its sacrificial, protective purpose, it should be no surprise that I have never seen or owned an expensive lab coat.)

So, “scientific” atheism must now go under the microscope:

1 –> The first problem is to accurately define. For that, it is instructive to first cite the well known online Stanford Enc of Phil, in its article on Atheism and Agnosticism by J J C Smart of Monash University:

‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. I shall here assume that the God in question is that of a sophisticated monotheism. The tribal gods of the early inhabitants of Palestine are of little or no philosophical interest. They were essentially finite beings, and the god of one tribe or collection of tribes was regarded as good in that it enabled victory in war against tribes with less powerful gods. Similarly the Greek and Roman gods were more like mythical heroes and heroines than like the omnipotent, omniscient and good God postulated in mediaeval and modern philosophy. As the Romans used the word, ‘atheist’ could be used to refer to theists of another religion, notably the Christians, and so merely to signify disbelief in their own mythical heroes. [First published Tue Mar 9, 2004; substantive revision Mon Aug 8, 2011. Acc: Nov 12, 2011.]

2 –> This is of course exactly what is traditionally understood, and it is what the etymology of the underlying Greek, “a + theos,” would suggest: the denial of the reality of God.  But, if one turns to the reliably evolutionary materialist Wikipedia, we will see that in its article on Atheism, there is now a commonly encountered evidently rhetorically loaded redefinition, as appears in the title for this post:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists . . . . Atheists tend to be skeptical of supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence.

3 –> The last statement, of course, strongly reflects the Lewontinian a priori assertion of materialism, and the underlying notion that to have a supernatural as a possibility would make our cosmos into a chaos. Indeed as Lewontin went on to say: “To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.”

4 –> Back of this, lies Hume’s basic hyper-skeptical error, in effect that there has been a uniform experience that firmly establishes the laws of nature and so we may dismiss any claimed supernatural exceptions as beyond reasonable belief. This boils down to begging the question in various ways, as first of all, we precisely do not and cannot have a global observational basis for the laws of science, they are inductive — thus fallible — generalisations. [Cf. Charles Babbage and Alfred Russel Wallace. (Yes, THAT Wallace, the co-founder of modern evolutionary theory and advocate of intelligent evolution.) Also cf a typical contemporary essay here.]

5 –> Similarly, for a miracle to stand out as being beyond the general course of the world, there must be just such a general course, i.e.  a world in which miracles are possible is one in which there will be general regularities amenable to scientific investigation. Informed theists will then tell us that, that the Author of that general course may, for His own good reasons, occasionally intervene at a higher level, in no wise detracts from the reliability of that general course. That is, Lewontin et al have erected and knocked over a ridicule-loaded strawman caricature of theism. (Newton knew better, 300 years ago in his General Scholium to Principia.)

6 –> Moreover, give that there are in fact millions who across centuries, testify to living encounter with God, and to being transformed thereby — including a generous slice of the leading lights of our civilisation across time [just try the likes of a Pascal, a Maxwell, a Kelvin or an Aquinas, for a quick list], to dismissively reject the possibility of miracles or the credibility of witnesses thereto inadvertently puts the human mind itself under suspicion.

7 –> For if so many millions are deluded, then the mind becomes highly questionable as an instrument of inquiry. That is, the atheist who imagines that those who oppose him are delusional, in the teeth of the numbers and quality of the people in question, saws off the cognitive branch on which he too must sit.

8 –> But, the very definition of atheism as “absence of belief in god or gods” that is now so commonly being pushed as the “real” definition, has deeper problems. For, it is usually offered as an argument that the atheist is simply taking a default view: YOU must prove your theism, I hold no position. (Cf. here too, just for fun.)

9 –> This is fallacious and misleading, indeed, a fatal worldview error. Why is that so?

a: It improperly shifts — and indeed ducks — the burden of warrant on comparative difficulties that any serious worldview must shoulder. If it is to be serious as a worldview.  (And, let me add {Nov14}: we all have worldviews— clusters of core beliefs, views and attitudes that define how we see the world; the question is whether we have thought them through to their idea-roots, connexions, degree of warrant, and forward to conclusions and consequences for us and our societies.)

b: An easy way to see all of this, is to notice how the very same atheists usually want to dress up their atheism in a lab coat.

c: For instance, as Lewontin tried to argue in his 1997 NYRB article, the a priori materialistic scientific elites want the general public to look up to them as the fountain of knowledge and wisdom, and to come to believe that science is “the only begetter of truth.”

d: But, this is NOT a scientific claim, it is a claim about the grounds that warrant knowledge, indeed an assertion of monopoly power over knowledge. Such is therefore properly a philosophical knowledge claim, i.e an epistemological claim.

e: Lewontin is trivially self-refuting.

f: But the claim is also illustrative of how claims at worldview level are inevitably linked to one another.

g: And, the denial or rejection of belief in God is plainly not an isolated claim, it sits in the centre of a cluster of evolutionary materialistic beliefs.

h: Indeed, Lewontin himself goes on to assert that the significant elites believe that “science” is the surest means to put us in touch with “physical reality” [= all of reality, for the materialist],  and that he and his ilk are committed to a priori, absolute materialism.

i: That is the context in which we see that science itself is being radically ideologised by question-begging redefinition. The declarations of the US National Science Teachers Association are particularly revealing on this, once we recognise that for “naturalistic” we can freely read “materialistic”:

The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . .

Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000. Emphases added.]

j: This ideologises science and science education, tearing out of the heart of science any serious concern to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world, and to recognise the inescapable limitations of empirically based inductive methods in that pursuit which mean that science must be open-ended and provisional in its fact claims and explanations.

k: In short, the intellectual duty of care to critically assess the scientific materialism at the heart of the relevant form of atheism we face,  cannot be ducked so easily as by using the rhetorical tactic of putting up a question-begging redefinition of atheism.

l: This means that scientific atheists must warrant their evolutionary materialism,  they must warrant their redefinition of science based on imposition of so-called methodological naturalism, and they must warrant their commonly held view that science monopolises genuine, objective knowledge.

10 –> Evolutionary materialistic atheism, therefore, has a too often ducked challenge to warrant its worldview level claims, on (a) factual adequacy,  (b) logical coherence, and (c) explanatory balance and power [being elegantly simple, but not simplistic and certainly not ad hoc].

11 –> That means it needs to take seriously the implications of the empirically reliable principle that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [especially digitally coded, symbolic information] — once we can directly observe the causal process — are inductively strong signs of design.

12 –> Similarly, it has to seriously address the issue of the best explanations for the credibly fine tuned cosmos we inhabit, which on evidence sits at a precise operating point that facilitates Carbon chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life that uses digital information to guide its self-replication and to synthesise the key nanomachines of metabolic life processes.

13 –> Likewise, it has to address the signs of design that are evident in the living cell, starting with the use of complex, functionally specific digital codes and algorithms to guide critical biochemical processes of life such as protein synthesis.

14 –> The need to account for the increments in complex functionally specific, integrated often irreducibly complex organisation and associated information to account for the dozens of body plans of multicellular life, including our own, is an extension of this challenge.

15 –> Similarly, such materialistic atheists need to credibly account for the reliability and trustworthiness of the human mind, in light of the Haldane challenge that has been on the table since the 1930’s (and of course modern extensions to that challenge):

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” [[“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. ]

16 –> Last but not least, given the force of the amorality confessed to and/or directly implied by leading materialistic atheists such as Dawkins and Provine,  atheistical, evolutionary materialists need to very carefully ponder the issues that were long since put on the table by Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 2350 years ago, in 360 BC:

[[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .

[[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.– [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . .

__________

It seems there are a few questions for scientific atheists to answer to, before we should take their attempt to monopolise science as anything beyond an ideological agenda.

It would be quite interesting to see their answers. END

Comments
This direct and uncalled-for characterization of such beliefs belies the attempt to whitewash Lewontin’s “meaning”; he was directly implicating that belief in god and demons are untrue superstitions and an incorrect view of the world and as things that only exist “in their imagination”.
I suspect that given a list of religions that have existed, you would agree that the majority are false and superstitious. But I tend to agree with your point. It is counterproductive to cast all religion as false and superstitious, just as it is counterproductive to malign the personal morality of all non-believers.Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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Is this any worse than tarring all non-believers as morally perverse, or tarring "Darwinism" with responsibility for Nazism?Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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Why are you narrowing down "natural"? What grounds can we have in confining the "natural" to chance/necessity and their combination? Why is design excluded? Establishing design as a possible causal factor (in some scenarios the best causal factor known) is different from studying the designer.Eugene S
November 17, 2011
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WJM: Unfortunately, it is not just Lewontin, it is a much wider pattern including influence of institutions that are driven by the sort of hostile agendas you described. The pattern of behaviour of say the US NSTA as is cited in the OP, is illustrative. Atheism as proposition, whether stated as active denial or promoted as passive form, is as a rule connected to a much wider worldview and socio-cultural agenda, including in the institutions of science and education. Professor Dawkins and his fellow New Atheists, regrettably, are capital examples in point. KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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Eugene, From the Wikipedia page on Maximus:
While Maximus was in Carthage, a controversy broke out regarding how to understand the interaction between the human and divine natures within the person of Jesus. This Christological debate was the latest development in disagreements that began following the First Council of Nicaea in 325, and were intensified following the Council of Chalcedon in 451. The Monothelite position was developed as a compromise between the dyophysitists and the miaphysists, who believed dyophysitism is conceptually indistinguishable from Nestorianism. The Monothelites adhered to the Chalcedonian definition of the hypostatic union: that two natures, one divine and one human, were united in the person of Christ. However, they went on to say that Christ had only a divine will and no human will (Monothelite is derived from the Greek for "one will"), which led some to charge them with Apollinarian monophysitism.
What the heck are they even talking about? How does reading and understanding something like the gospels turn into this baffling techno-speak? The gospels are so rich in meaning and content, and they've turned it into an empty debate over whether Jesus had a divine will and a human will and invented a dozen new words in the process. Forgive me, but how did Christians survive and worship for years before someone invented the concept of a "hypostasis?" I'm a lifelong Bible student and I've never seen the word until now. He also wrote that Mary was a prominent figure in early Christianity. Do you know how many times she is mentioned in the scriptures after the gospels? I'll leave it to you to count. All of these things pop up hundreds of years after the Bible was written. Some contradict it, some add questionable details, some place great importance on concepts never or barely mentioned in it, and most add a level of complexity and confusion that Jesus could not have possibly intended when he spoke in such simple, accessible terms. No offense, but I'll take the Bible and leave Maximus.ScottAndrews2
November 17, 2011
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I've seen you pound this for months, if not years, but have been unable to see any utility to your position. So someone is a materialist. So what? Physics has developed views of matter that shade into what used to be considered non-material. There are serious discussions of reality that make the "matter" into something more mathematical than the obsolete billiard ball metaphor of particles. The real point of Lewontin is that phenomena and theories describing phenomena must have entailments that suggest avenues of research. The relevance to ID is that one cannot apply the explanatory filter without ruling out natural explanations. It is the first and most important step in applying the filter.Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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There is no escape from being wrong. There are (or have been) thousands of religions and ideologies, and most, by logical necessity, are wrong. Aside from community, there is feedback over time, which can correct errors. But our view of reality will always be limited. What matters to most people is whether a view is useful. What matters to science is whether a view suggests avenues for research.Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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It looks like part of my post did not make it from my head to the keyboard. Anyway, I was saying that before God created the world he already knew what would happen (i.e. the fall of demons and of man and the need for Redemption of the latter).Eugene S
November 17, 2011
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St Maximus the Confessor is one of the greatest saints of Christian Church. His life is an uplifting reading. He defended the right doctrine about the two wills in the Person of Jesus Christ at the time of the Monothelite heresy. He had his tongue and right hand cut off to stop him from preaching. Of course, he did not say anything contrary to the teaching of the Church (and consequently of the Apostles), otherwise the Church would not have recognised him as saint. As to the point I am making, there is nothing (even a potential evil stemming from free willed creatures) can stop God from exercising Providence. God always directs evil that originates in sinful will towards good. Before he created If this is what you are saying, I agree with you on this point.Eugene S
November 17, 2011
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WJM: The real issue is empirical observability of reliable signs of a given causal force or factor at work. I suggest a glance here, here and here at the newer post on that. Once we have a good inductive basis for inference on sign, we are in business. Which we do. Try out Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold. But the problem is that the prejudice against unwelcome signs and where they point will then come into play, e.g. digitally coded, algorithmically fundto0nal complex coded info is a reliable sign of design where we can directly observe it as a cross check. But to then infer that the living cell is full of DNA that meets this criterion and so should be seen as a work of art, will throw up the a priori materialism flags. Which means we do most likely have to resolve the underlying worldview a prioris issue. And in that your observation on the lack of inclination towards comprehensive coherence in thinking is significant, as Zoe also pointed out. GEM of TKI PS: ESt has allowed a 24 hour window to lapse without adequate response on a personality he raised; i.e. on p.1 he implied I was a liar and/or grossly irresponsible tantamount to lying, using the smear-term the Gish gallop (which is itself already a smear of Dr Gish). So, he has worn out his welcome in this thread and others I may have.kairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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Eugene S,.
St Maximus the Confessor says that even if Adam had not sinned, the incarnation of the Son of God would have happened out of his love of man.
There is no disciple named Maximus in the Bible. The apostles who did write the Bible specifically warned to be wary of the teachings that would come after them, not to give them equal weight with the scriptures.
There would have been no death without sin in the universe. But man has gained in Christ more than he lost in Adam.
It's not a question of gain or loss. A work in progress was interrupted, and God saw fit to let to let the diversion run its course. But the scriptures indicate that God's purpose to create an earth and populate it with happy, perfect people has never changed. That would amount to a failure on his part, an inability to complete what he began.ScottAndrews2
November 17, 2011
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Here again, I think that Eigenstate - as with his definition of "supernatural" - refers to a very narrow definition of atheism that, while it might be appropriate to his/her particular worldview arrangement, I think "atheism" is a much more involved and world-view-ish, religion-esque frame of belief reference for others. A larger, deeper, more involved atheism that consequently ridicules, personally attacks, denies, dismisses and maligns those who believe in god or other spiritual/non-material agencies, for no real account other than that they hold such beliefs, is a demonstration of a mere "lack of beliefs". Let's say a stamp collector and one who doesn't collect stamps both served on a committee that had nothing to do with stamp-collecting. If in the course of a meeting about, say, city zoning ordinances, the non-stamp collector stood up and personally attacked with ridicule the hobby of his colleague as a reason why his opinion shouldn't be listened to, or as a reason why his ideas about zoning were wrong, then there is more going on than a mere lack of stamp-collecting interest on the part of the non-collector. If atheists in the scientific commmunity did not refer to the supposed theistic beliefs or motives of ID advocates or young-Earth creationists with open, dismissive ridicule and even motive-mongering, but kept their arguments entirely about the facts, evidence, and research, then one might make the case that such scientists simply "lack" a belief in god. But Lewontin's argument is not a worldview-neutral narrow focus about the limitations of observations and repeatable evidence; it directly and purposefully calls out certain beliefs (such the divine and demons) and characterizes them and other agencies normally associated with the term "supernatural" as irrational superstitions, as an "incorrect view", as "untrue", when he has no authority or reason to make such an association. This direct and uncalled-for characterization of such beliefs belies the attempt to whitewash Lewontin's "meaning"; he was directly implicating that belief in god and demons are untrue superstitions and an incorrect view of the world and as things that only exist "in their imagination". Lewontin's intent is clear: to associate & characterize such particular beliefs as untrue, irrational, and incorrect regardless of any scientific evidence pro or con. Otherwise, he should have made his case without using such examples or pejorative terminology.William J Murray
November 17, 2011
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eigenstate:
Atheism is a religion in the same way not-collecting-stamps is a hobby.
The Uninted States Supreme Court has ruled that atheism is a religion. YOUR opinion means nothing.Joseph
November 17, 2011
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I'm not commenting on NSTA. I'm saying that science can investigate the supernatural if it has effects that can be observed in the natural world. Like it investigates dark matter, even though it can only detect its gravitational effects on regular matter. In addition, regardless of whatever LEWONTIN says or you think he said, science is pretty good at handling new laws and forces. When a piece of photographic film was found to be mysteriously fogged, scientists investigated and we eventually had brand new forces (The week and strong nuclear forces) and a whole new field of science - radioactivity. Ditto for a mysterious glow caused by a discharge tube on the other side of the room. Roentgen didn't say, "This must be supernatural!" He investigated the natural world and discovered x-rays. Einstein even showed that our ideas on such basic things as time and space were wrong and he came out of that pretty good, what with the Nobel Prize and worldwide acclaim and all. What LEWONTIN is saying is that if you try to think up supernatural causes of natural observations, hundreds of years of experience says you are wasting your time.dmullenix
November 17, 2011
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Eigenstate's description of "methodological naturalism" and it's limitations concerning what we call "supernatural", and its subsuming of what we call "art", seem to me to represent a fairly sound and open conceptualization that (1) embraces anything usually (and erroneously) wrapped in the nomenclature of "supernatural" but which has some kind of repeatable, observable effects, and (2)intelligently designed artifacts - which would include most of what people normally refer to as supernatural forces or entities. I think the meaningful problem is that there appears to be a significant bias in the mainstream scientific community and institutions, not against what is the technical definition of "supernatural" as proposed by Eigenstate above, but against inferences, conclusions and interpretations that refer to what are commonly considered to be "supernatural" agencies. In other words, theories (in the loose definition) about ID, god, ghosts, psi, OOBEs, soul, spirit, demons, karma, reincarnation, afterlife, etc. are perfectly acceptable in Eigensgtate's world of scientific discovery (correct me if wrong) as long as thy produce repeatable evidence based on observable effects. They may be hard cases to make; there might be serious difficulty in establishing appropriate tests and protocols for interpretation; they might require new equipment or kinds of experiments. However, they are not ideologically off the table. Eigenstate says that in such cases the "Divine Foot" is not in the door (as per what I think is a much narrower-than-intended-by-Lewontin definition of Divine), but I think the ID community sees it differently; that is the only "divine foot" they cared about in the first place, scientifically speaking. To me, that is just a debate about whether or not the scientific leadership/office is pushing the kind of narrow definition of "supernatural" that Eigenstate refers to, or rather a broader version that includes all concepts traditionally associated with the "supernatural". If "art" is (for this debate) considered to be a part of "nature", then there is no reason ID is not in principle a completely scientific venture, even if it theorizes an intelligent "god" that is only recognizable via an observable pattern (even if aperiodic) of effects.William J Murray
November 17, 2011
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P: Please notice, I specifically pointed out how communities can also be caught up in a mass hysteria of delusion. The presence of a community does not allow escape from the issue of self-referentiality for the materialist. And, that is what the parable of Plato's cave warns against. I suggest you look here at a different way to build up a worldview. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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Now, therefore, you need to ask, how is it, within “the modern materialistic conception of natural phenomen[a]“, we have any reasonable basis for thinking that we are not ALL caught up in hallucinations, including about our vaunted ability to reason and know?
I was taught there is a reason for the phrase "two or three gathered together." The reason I was given is that community places checks and balances on thought, reducing the tendency of individuals to wander off the rails. Kind of a theological peer review.Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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P: A sad story, and not atypical. I have seen a very close relative shift her mind back 70 years and recall and recount to me with astonishing detail -- indeed, relive -- stories that were never told in such details while I was growing up, even as she is increasingly disoriented and disconnected in the present. And as she sees things in the present, there is for instance a confusion between a shiny floor and one wet with spilled water. I have seen others, much younger, who -- having been taught and warned in inappropriate ways for them -- perceive commonsensical situations in astonishingly warped ways. And, these cases underscore that our interpretations of the world are shaped by our perceptions, mediated through our bodies and conditioned by how we interpret. This is an interactive response. So what happens if for instance a man is temporally disoriented and looks at the lady following him as he wanders off and asks, lady, do you not know that I am a married man? (If he -- being temporally disoriented -- recalls his wife as she was 50 years past and not as she now is, what would be the effect? Just, as a suggestion.) Or, what would happen if a confused child has been inadvertently taught to perceive men as abusers; the intent had been to warn about the possibility of abuse, but because there was a lack of reasonable balance, a distorted view of the likelihood of abuse warps ability to respond appropriately. Similarly, I recall now the history of entire nations where communities seem to go collectively mad under the influence of real or perceived threats or crisis, hysteria, propaganda and bigotry they perceived as truth. And yet, for all of these cases, I have known of others where I have seen astonishingly perceptive responses, and tellingly insightful reasoning and sound action. So, I am highlighting that you are speaking of a special case of hallucination; where the issue is what is the difference between delusion and reality. And, how may we be confident that we are accurate in our thinking. Now, therefore, you need to ask, how is it, within "the modern materialistic conception of natural phenomen[a]", we have any reasonable basis for thinking that we are not ALL caught up in hallucinations, including about our vaunted ability to reason and know? Recall, if our CNS's neural circuits are programmed for/by survival and/or forces in our community and individual experiences tracing to chance and mechanical necessity only, then they are not oriented to truth. That is, we face the issue that the great evolutionary story is self-referential and leads to serious questions of incoherence. In short, I am directing your attention to the issues you seem to have consistently overlooked, as raised again just above on p.1 I am beginning to think that WJM and Zoe have a serious point, that in our time we have lost a sense of the vital importance of coherency in our system of thought. Our thinking -- scientific and otherwise -- needs to be factually adequate across the range of relevant facts, it needs to be coherent and the explanations we accept need to be neither simplistic nor ad hoc. That is why I have directed attention to the pivotal issue, as is highlighted in the linked above on p. 1. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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Scott, There is no vicious circularity in this. St Maximus the Confessor says that even if Adam had not sinned, the incarnation of the Son of God would have happened out of his love of man. I believe if Adam had not sinned, we would have already inherited the earth, so to speak. There would have been no death without sin in the universe. But man has gained in Christ more than he lost in Adam.Eugene S
November 17, 2011
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Now, the obvious storage location is the brain, and it is to be noted that often loss of memory is loss of retrieval, not loss of storage. Of course storage can also be lost.
This seems to answer part of my question. The drugs I refer to prevent the conversion of short term memory into long term memory. One of my wife's uncles had a stroke that left him permanently unable to form long term memories. He could function pretty much normally, except that for 25 years he developed no new memories. He needed to be reminded from hour to hour that things had happened since his illness. He would wake up every day ready to go to his old job. I am forced to wonder how the mind fails to notice things like this.Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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P: Pardon, in trying to be brief, I seem to have been obscure to you. As I just noted to SA, your pivotal question above, last evening, was actually in the point where you said "if mind is disembodied . . . " and later on "Assertion of a disembodied mind has little or no Biblical support . . . " This, immediately, implicates the issue of mind and matter, minds and bodies, and thus raises the underlying question of the Original Mind, God. It is in that context that I answered that side. On the side of the roles of different parts in an interactive structured whole, I pointed you to the Eng Derek Smith mimo cybernetic loop model [please read the discussion points], emphasisising in response at 30 above to your onward queries, that:
As the model illustrates [via two-way, looped interaction . . . ], mind-brain interaction and resulting mutual influence is not the pivotal issue, the self-referential incoherence of physicalist notions of mind is, cf here.
That reference to two way looped interaction shows that on "either" view, we are to EXPECT two-way influences, mind on body and body on mind. You will recall my reference to the first man knocked out by a blow to the head and the first man to get drunk, which both can directly affect memory. You will notice that the model exhibits two processors, an i/o in-the-loop controller, implemented in biological entities using neural networks. There is a higher order supervisory controller that is the locus for the creative, imaginative and purposeful. This reflects the paradigm of control engineering, where a process loop is set a target path by a set point that in a servosystem, tracks an intended path. (A useful example to bear in mind is an autopilot for a ship subjected to buffeting.) Adaptive systems have to adjust the i/o-process loop to circumstances. And int his case the use of proprioceptors allows sensing internal state and orientation in the environment, thus creation of an internal model integrated with a world model; which may or may not be accurate. Now, the obvious storage location is the brain, and it is to be noted that often loss of memory is loss of retrieval, not loss of storage. Of course storage can also be lost. Why should the brain not also be a major store for the common memory? Do you not see that this makes the issues you ask, in-common, not experimentum crucis issues that show differential and empirically distinct predictions? And yet, the architecture in question is a general purpose one that is rationalised on known MIMO loop behaviour and requisites, it is not ad hoc. It comes from the logic of dynamical control of a servosystem. (Smith's online book is a great place to go for a useful, fuller discussion. I don't need to agree with him down the line to see that he is onto something very important. You may also want to look at the more complex, complete from of the model. BTW, did they do a servosystems control course in your training? Just curious . . . ) The servosystem view points out that mind-body and body-mind influences, including brain-mind interactions, are not where the pivotal questions lurk, despite what your education and its naturalistic orientation -- this is the dominant school -- would lead you to expect. The issue on empirically anchored warrant per inference to best explanation is not where we have in-common expectations, but where we have key DIFFERENTIAL ones. And those lurk not in interactions and questions of storage etc, but in the higher level issues: real purpose, real choices, real decisions, real responsibility, once we are dealing with humans. For, the loop is a structural phenomenon, under the control of its architecture and the forces involved, whether mechanical interactions down to ion flows in neurons, and the resulting muscular responses -- actuators/effectors of the plant. The loop is a robot, a servosystem. (Remember, I actually believe that some form of an AI entity is possible, and that we may find a way to create something that is on the level of say a beaver within several decades; with transformational potential for industry and space exploration then colonisation. On my view we, beavers and monkeys etc are created intelligences, so there probably is a way to create an intelligence that is self-aware and operates on the level of instincts and built in knowledge bases, even maybe learnable ones. But I suspect we are going to have a much harder problem coming up with a programmed entity that makes real creative, irreducibly complex and non-algorithmic choices above coin-flipping equivalents and the last level of decision case structures in buried algorithms. We may also have problems matching some levels of capacity for intuitive perceptions and the spark of truly creative imagination and initiative. I am not even going to touch the question of conscious, qualitative experiences like the redness of a sunset! Other than to say the idea that software loops can somehow lead to "emergence" of consciousness seems to be conceptually deeply amiss. Such loops could help in sensor-effector systems, but that is worlds apart from conscious, creative awareness.) And if we think only in terms of the loop [and only think seriously in terms of one possible explanatory model . . . others being strawmannised], we are stuck in the loop of the program and the chance variations that affect it, we have no explanation for the intelligent, volitional direction of the entity. Which is precisely what say Crick said, as I will clip from points 13 ff in the linked reading:
13 --> Some materialists go further and suggest that mind is more or less a delusion. For instance, Sir Francis Crick is on record, in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis: . . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. 14 --> Philip Johnson has replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [[Reason in the Balance, 1995.] 15 --> In short, it is at least arguable that self-referential absurdity is the dagger pointing to the heart of evolutionary materialistic models of mind and its origin . . .
This speaks exactly to the determinism and/or chance-necessity driven concept that leads to the reduction to self-refuting self-referential absurdity that I have kept on pointing to: _____________ >> . . . This issue can be addressed at a more sophisticated level [[cf. Hasker in The Emergent Self (Cornell University Press, 2001), from p 64 on, e.g. here as well as Reppert here and Plantinga here (briefer) & here (noting updates in the 2011 book, The Nature of Nature)], but without losing its general force, it can also be drawn out a bit in a fairly simple way: a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of -- in their view -- an "obviously" imaginary "ghost" in the meat-machine. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this meat-machine picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains that (as the Smith Model illustrates) serve as cybernetic controllers for our bodies. d: These underlying driving forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. And, remember, the focal issue to such minds -- notice, this is a conceptual analysis made and believed by the materialists! -- is the physical causal chains in a control loop, not the internalised "mouth-noises" that may somehow sit on them and come along for the ride. (Save, insofar as such "mouth noises" somehow associate with or become embedded as physically instantiated signals or maybe codes in such a loop. [[How signals, languages and codes originate and function in systems in our observation of such origin -- i.e by design -- tends to be pushed to the back-burner and conveniently forgotten. So does the point that a signal or code takes its significance precisely from being an intelligently focused on, observed or chosen and significant alternative from a range of possibilities that then can guide decisive action.]) e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view: . . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions. [[Emphases added. Also cf. Reppert's summary of Barefoot's argument here.] i: The famous evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark: "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)] j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the conceptualised beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt based on such and (v) the "conclusions" and "choices" (a.k.a. "decisions") we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to "mere" ill-defined abstractions such as: purpose or truth, or even logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: in science, one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity . . . >> ______________ Does this help us see more clearly why I think the points you keep emphasising are not the pivot of the issue? With mind-body and body-mind (including brain-mind) interaction, we should not be surprised to see effects that are linked to that interaction. And, sadly, pathologies. To use a simple comparison, if you smash vital parts of a so-called smart phone, it will not work right, and the power of the invisible "cloud" network that allows the visible phone to carry out many of its feats will be crippled. Do we then infer that the cloud does not exist? Interaction is pivotal in any complex highly integrated system. Of course, we can see the network's hardware. So the analogy is not perfect. But then, can we actually SEE the information proper (and not its symbols), or for that matter the energy proper, or the entropy proper? All of these are invisible and inferred from their effects. Let us therefore note Jesus' response to Nicodemus in jn 3, and think on it as a philosophical matter:
Jn 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]” 4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” . . .
Again, we see the issue of inferential knowledge of the invisible, and the conceptual challenge of misunderstanding it from an incomplete perspective. But, such misunderstandings will show their inadequacies by being systematically unable to resolve the paradoxes and reducing to incoherence and factual inadequacy, despite the many patches that have been added time after time. So, let us pause to hear Chalmers on the hard problem of consciousness:
The term . . . refers to the difficult problem of explaining why we have qualitative phenomenal experiences. It is contrasted with the "easy problems" of explaining the ability to discriminate, integrate information, report mental states, focus attention, etc. Easy problems are easy because all that is required for their solution is to specify a mechanism that can perform the function. That is, their proposed solutions, regardless of how complex or poorly understood they may be, can be entirely consistent with the modern materialistic conception of natural phenomen[[a]. Hard problems are distinct from this set because they "persist even when the performance of all the relevant functions is explained."
The wind is blowing . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 16, 2011
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SA: First, P challenged the possibility of mind apart from body, which immediately implies the issue of the nature of God. And, the Judaeo-Christian worldview is theocentric, not anthropocentric. Indeed, the pivotal moment in the Creation narrative is when God breathes -- spirit! [RUACH = breath . . ., cf. Jesus in Jn 3 on spirit/wind and the difference between realms of being] -- into clay, making Man unique. In that context, the concept of being born from above/born again, is that of a spiritual transformation from without being contingent on penitent trust in God, then welling up within and flowing out in a different order of living that will seem inexplicable to those not so energised and transformed. Also, the resurrection is not as spirits, it is of transformed bodies, as 1 Cor 15 emphasises when it speaks of sowing and being raised in transformed form. Thus, we have the prototype, the firstfruits having a body that has novel properties -- it is obviously of a different dimensionality. (BTW, that is where BA 77 is onto something when he talks of the quantum realm as strongly pointing to something beyond our commonsensical realm. At lay level, the quantum double slit experiment is particularly pregnant with pointers to a different dimension of reality, as say the Dr Quantum video introduces. And, just maybe, if that neutrino one cricket pitch too fast results hold up, they point to a short-cut through different, and extended dimensionality. I hardly need to say more than to underscore that for a generation, physical theories have been pointing to multidimensionality as they attempt to explain what is observed, string theory being notorious in this regard.) But, we see that the resurrected prototype is able to eat at supper, be inspected by probing his still fearsome but now powerless wounds, and he makes a roasted fish breakfast by the shores in Galilee. All of these point to a subtle complexity to the biblical worldview that after a generation or more of suppression of having some exposure to the thought world of the Bible in public education, and an increasing general secularisation, people are now by and large not aware of. I simply point to it, as matter of basic accuracy to the text. And, sorry, I don't want to turn this into a philosophical theology and exegesis thread, so I will not go on and on on points. I hope a few sketchy pointers are enough to spark your own onward thoughts. Maybe, you will find this chart and this discussion on perhaps the first comprehensive theological declaration of the church, set in its C1 textual context (thus its historical roots), helpful. Note also the pivotal issues in the Creed and in the NT, as is discussed here. The creed of Nicea (326 and 381, it was slightly expanded after 50 years of debate) is in fact definitive of orthodox historic Christian faith, being the product of the first council that could meet, after the era of persecutions. And no, Dan Brown's caricatures are just that, novelistic strawmen; contrary to his "Fact" declaration in the Da Vinci Code. (Cf also remarks here.) Note, the "spiritual resurrection" concept -- and the pivotal errors of Bart Ehrman, Gerd [?] Ludemann et al -- are discussed here. These scholars, in their zeal to promote the notion of a broad spectrum of early Christianities, to make room for their own contemporary heterodoxy, have unfortunately distorted the actual objective historic case. But, most laypeople, and not a few theology students [thus also, eventually, graduates . . . ], would not have the resources to see the corrective context. (Cf here on the underlying phil and history of ideas issues, paying particular attention to Linnemann and Yamauchi.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 16, 2011
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kf, Petrushka's statements were about the nature of physical men, not about the spiritual nature of God. What I meant is that if we give weight to "mainstream" Christianity, we should remember that the primary subject matter of this site is rejected by mainstream science. Trust me, I'm abundantly familiar with the teaching of the resurrection. In the sermon on the mount, Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth. (He was quoting the Hebrew scriptures.) Everyone he spoke those words to died. Did he speak the truth to them, or will they never inherit the earth? If the goal is to obtain a spiritual life then how would Adam and Eve and their descendants have achieved it? In order to be resurrected as spirits they would have to die, and in order to die they would have to sin. Sin is the price of death. It is a penalty, not the gateway to a reward. Had they not sinned, would they not be right here among us? There, I'm doing it again. Must. Stop.ScottAndrews2
November 16, 2011
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I'm sure you'll post the last word on this topic, but I'll just point out that it isn't likely to have any bearing on my questions. Which are where is the memory stored in a disembodied mind, and why is memory affected by drugs that affect changes in the brain. Why can't the mind look at a damaged brain the way we look at a damaged radio? Why does severing communication between hemispheres prevent one side from knowing what the other side is seeing? These are all basically the same question. I predict that regardless of how many words you post, you will not answer the question.Petrushka
November 16, 2011
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P: I draw attention to the hard problem of consciousness issue (cf. here onlookers for starters) to see how little we understand mindedness as we experience it; not to mention the a prioris commonly seen in the field. And BTW, if a sophisticated processor to do what the human body needs is fairly large, so what? We have already seen [and heard, cf audio at Youtube] why physicalist models fail: the are inescapably incoherent. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 16, 2011
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SA, pardon, but I was simply responding to P's assertion. The textual facts are as I summarised, and on the essential core points are common to historic Judaism & Christianity (recall, Christianity began as a messianistic sect of Judaism): God is Spirit, and is Creator of the material world we inhabit. If you REALLY want a slice or two from the specifically Christian scriptures to provide some documentation, first here is c. AD 62 Colossians:
Col 1:15 He [The Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
The invisibility of God is of course linked to his spiritual and eternal nature. Cf 2 Cor, c. AD 55-7:
2 cor 4: 17 . . . our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands . . .
That should be enough to make the basic point, and if you need to understand the NT view on the resurrection of the body, cf 1 Cor 15. I have no desire to get into theological and exegetical debates here, just to point out that on pretty direct texts, P is not accurate to the historic view. Of course, you are free to hold your own view. G'night. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 16, 2011
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I don't speak for mainstream science. At best I speak from a layman's understanding of mainstream science. I have degrees in experimental psychology and special education, so I have some formal training in learning theory. But my formal education is several decades old. I understand the conundrum posed by consciousness. I simply don't think anything is added by shifting the problem to a hypothetical entity, particularly when the main Western religions don't seem to offer any scriptural authority to the concept. The physical brain poses one large problem. Dualism poses a host of problems. Among them is the problem already pointed out that the physical structure of brains seems to correlate with the observed intelligence of individuals, whether the individuals are human or not. Flies are just as capable of organized movement and perception as humans, but have neurons numbering in the thousands. It seems like a five year old would notice that there's something about big brains and temporal lobes that is required for hosting a mind. What is that, and why is the memory disembodied mind affected by drugs?Petrushka
November 16, 2011
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Since no one can build an working model of a brain, it is a bit premature to talk about the deficiencies. Just modelling such mundane tasks as walking stretch the limits of high powered computers. Pattern recognition is very limited. It is still possible to distinguish between computers and humans with fuzzed up alphabets (although programs are gaining). But whether a particular disembodied mind model is yours or just something you accept, it needs to explain why memory formation seems dependent on the physical brain.Petrushka
November 16, 2011
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kf, I must disagree and assert that Petrushka's statements are fully in line with what the Bible says and its writers believed, if not with the current 'Judaeo-Christian worldview.' If you wish to discuss your religious beliefs, I'll just have to drop back and be silent because I don't want to debate the Bible in this or any other internet forum. I understand that perhaps you speak for "mainstream" Christianity. But if that is to carry weight, let's not forget that Petrushka speaks for mainstream science. That's my $.02. I think it's better if we speak for our own religious beliefs rather than in generalities that unintentionally include others. That being said, I'm used to it and I honestly won't even take offense if you do it anyway.ScottAndrews2
November 16, 2011
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F/N: on the theology side, since you want to go there, FYI we can start with the Biblical declaration, God is Spirit, and of course he is maker of the material world. Then, we can go on from there all day if you want. Your assertions run contrary to the textual facts that outline the historic Judaeo-Christian worldview. F/N 2: And, again, (a) mind-body interaction is all we need to address facts, and (b) the physicalist account refutes itself through self referential incoherence as linked. Start from the Haldane summary as a succinct outline.kairosfocus
November 16, 2011
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