Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

BA77’s observation: “many influential people in academia simply don’t want Design to be true no matter what evidence . . .”

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The inimitable BA77 observes:

I [used] to think that if ID could only get its evidence to the right people in the right places then they would change their mind about Darwinian evolution and we would have a fundamental ‘paradigm shift’ from the ‘top down’. But after a few years of banging my head on that wall to no avail, I realized that it is not a head problem with these people so much as it is a heart problem. i.e. many influential people in academia simply don’t want Design to be true no matter what evidence you present to them. Indeed, in many educational institutions, there is a systematic effort in academia to Expel anyone who does not toe the Darwinian party line . . . . Scientists are subject to the same pride and prejudices as everyone else.,,, perhaps more so when the issues relate to their preferred worldview.

He concludes: “Thus the growth in popular support for ID has been more of a ‘bottom up’ affair.”

He cites Max Planck on the rise of new paradigms one funeral at a time:

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it . . .

Is this what we have come to?

Are we so stubborn as that in the face of the force of evidence such as the significance of the only known cause of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I] and the linked isolated needles in a haystack configuration-space blind search challenge:

csi_defn

DI’s Stephen Meyer addresses much the same point in speaking to what critics of his Darwin’s Doubt seem to almost uniformly miss:

[youtube Ljy1yfGdC5Y]

Why, or why not? Kindly, explain. END

Comments
Melvinvines, Interesting discussion at your site. Should be an OP here. KF look at it. Thanks for link.jerry
August 4, 2014
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rich @ 10 you state:
“Many religious people want evolution to be false / design to be true no matter what the evidence”.
rich, there is a sharp difference between the two positions is that Design proponents put their neck on the line in regards to falsification and Darwinists do not!! In the following video, Michael Behe shows how easy it is to falsify Intelligent Design. However, he also explains how difficult it is to falsify evolution. Falsifying Intelligent Design - Michael Behe, PhD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf26zlgZ0es Indeed, can Darwinian evolution be falsified at all? Does Evolution have a Hard Core ? Excerpt: “nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific,,,,” - Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, quote was as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture http://www.samizdat.qc.ca/cosmos/philo/hardcore_pg.htm What the vast majority of Darwinists fail to realize (or ever honestly admit to) is that Darwinian evolution is not even a 'real' physical science in any proper sense but that Darwinian evolution is more realistically thought of as a pseudo-science. Even Jerry Coyne himself, the self-appointed Grand Inquisitor of Darwinian evolution, admits that Darwinian evolution lacks the rigor of a proper physical science: “In science’s pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics. For evolutionary biology is a historical science, laden with history’s inevitable imponderables. We evolutionary biologists cannot generate a Cretaceous Park to observe exactly what killed the dinosaurs; and, unlike “harder” scientists, we usually cannot resolve issues with a simple experiment, such as adding tube A to tube B and noting the color of the mixture.” - Jerry A. Coyne – Of Vice and Men, The New Republic April 3, 2000 p.27 - professor of Darwinian evolution at the University of Chicago The main reason why Darwinian evolution is more properly thought of as a pseudo-science instead of a proper science is because Darwinian evolution has no rigid mathematical basis, like other overarching physical theories of science do. A rigid mathematical basis in order to potentially falsify it (in fact math, in so far as math can be applied to Darwinian claims, constantly shows us that Darwinian evolution is astronomically unlikely),, “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” (Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/quote-of-the-day-8/ WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True - Roger Highfield - January 2014 Excerpt:,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—'laws'—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25468 Active Information in Metabiology – Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II – 2013 Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.4/BIO-C.2013.4 HISTORY OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY – WISTAR DESTROYS EVOLUTION Excerpt: A number of mathematicians, familiar with the biological problems, spoke at that 1966 Wistar Institute,, For example, Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,—with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that the genes of E. coli contain over a trillion (10^12) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/20hist12.htm Darwin's Doubt - Chapter 12 - Complex Adaptations and the Neo-Darwinian Math - Dr. Paul Giem - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFY7oKc34qs&list=SPHDSWJBW3DNUaMy2xdaup5ROw3u0_mK8t&index=7 See also Mendel's Accountant and Haldane's Ratchet: John Sanford further notes here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oaPcK-KCppBztIJmXUBXTvZTZ5lHV4Qg_pnzmvVL2Qw/editbornagain77
August 4, 2014
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"My Criteria for Design" I am often asked by evolutionauts to specify what makes me think an entity is designed rather than being an illusion of design. This question is so simply answered, anyone with half a brain could put together a rational answer... http://evoillusion.org/40-my-criteria-for-design/melvinvines
August 4, 2014
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I will add a third thing so now it is three fold why there is resistance. People feel free to add others.
In academia, there's an enormous fear of appearing to be ignorant, unsophisticated or out of touch with the most cutting-edge aspects of culture. Materialist atheism is seen as revolutionary and a rebellion against old standards. Atheist thinkers and artists are the foundation of post-modernism, and nobody wants to be expelled from that elite group. ID is not welcome in that club because it has historical roots and is a threat to academia. The supernatural cannot be directly observed and that's considered a limit to scientific exploration. Researchers don't like limits. In the US, something like the movie Inherit the Wind had a powerful effect for decades with the idea that opposition to evolution came entirely from ignorant religious fanatics. People who have never seen the film and know nothing about the trial still think that. Some creationist religious teachers have lacked sophistication or scholarship and that has been exaggerated to make them look totally ignorant. It's a double-standard, of course, considering many unsophisticated comments from evolutionists, but religious believers are often held to a higher standard and that's understandable in many ways.Silver Asiatic
August 4, 2014
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F/N: Jerry is indeed one of the originals. KFkairosfocus
August 4, 2014
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Jerry: Your analysis seems, to me to supplement BA77's remark. Your further points on how Darwin's synthesis and the neo-D synthesis carried the day and still have considerable persuasive power need to be fleshed out and seriously addressed. Why an inductive logic point that in material part pioneered by an agnostic, Hoyle, should be cast as "creationism in a cheap tuxedo," and how the substantial point comes to so often be lost in the shouting etc, needs to be addressed. We need to get back to key issues. KFkairosfocus
August 4, 2014
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Now, since you seem to be a defender of pure untainted science, I dare you to explain how we got the complex systems described in my posts in the mentioned thread.
I believe you have misread my comment. There is no bigger supporter of ID than me. I go back further on this site than KF and BA77. But I will say what I believe and my comment represented that. It was not why I question ID but why I believe others do.jerry
August 4, 2014
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Anthropic, you seem to be quite new so welcome to UD. I get the impression you would like to elaborate and provide some substantiating details and/or links. Do, please -- several of your claims are strong but rather skeletal. (In short, kindly provide warranting details, clips and/or links; as the comment insert box shows certain HTML tags can be used. As a starter, it can be argued that every worldview depends on a set of "first plausibles" that constitute its "point of faith" . . . agree or disagree, why?) KFkairosfocus
August 4, 2014
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Unfortunately, since materialism is a matter of faith, it is very difficult indeed to convince true believers that there is actual evidence against it.
I agree and make it the fourth reason.jerry
August 4, 2014
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Jerry: Interesting point. If I catch you right
I am not sure what you are trying to say. I am just saying why I think there is resistance to ID. This is based on my observations here and with others. And also amongst those who believe in God and don't have the religious axe to grind. ID has the upper hand with the science and the logic but I was trying to explain why it is falling on deaf ears amongst the elite. I believe BA77 is probably right and that it will gain acceptance at lower levels (but they must be educated lower levels) and that is how it will eventually win the day. But it may not be soon. I will add a third thing so now it is three fold why there is resistance. People feel free to add others. The overall rationale for a naturalistic form of evolution is extremely compelling. Opposition fell to Darwin quickly after his publication. His logic was overwhelming for nearly everyone (the power of artificial selection, homologies and geographic distribution of species and natural selection seemed so obvious a process). What was at issue for a fairly long time was mechanism and natural selection eventually won the day by the 1940's after mutations and Mendel's work proved the basis for genetics. Now we all know that this is bogus but the basic argument provided by Darwin is still compelling and it is hard to cut through that.jerry
August 4, 2014
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Jerry at 4: One thing I'd say is that a militant atheist/materialist is every bit as much a person of faith as any theist. The belief that matter is ultimate simply cannot be demonstrated empirically. In fact, there is much evidence that mind/information/relationship is fundamental in a way that matter is not, such as the origin of matter/energy and space/time in the Big Bang, the origin of information needed for life, the origin of information needed for the Cambrian explosion, nine decades of experimental results in quantum mechanics, and neuroscience showing immaterial thoughts causing the material brain to restructure itself, and the fact that immaterial laws govern the material universe. Historically, there is also the very well attested resurrection of Jesus. The great majority of historians now concede that Jesus really died, his body really disappeared and never was found, and that many people saw & talked with him, and that they absolutely believed his claim to have risen from the dead. By far the most reasonable explanation for these facts is that there was a literal resurrection, with mind/info/relationship once again trumping matter. Unfortunately, since materialism is a matter of faith, it is very difficult indeed to convince true believers that there is actual evidence against it. In fact, the more evidence piles up, the more hostility ensues, usually expressed at those who bear the unwelcome tidings. Witness the reaction to the ENCODE findings...anthropic
August 4, 2014
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Rich, while your pausing to comment is appreciated, did you take time to look at the discussion of the evidence relating to FSCO/I or to watch the video that pointed to the implications of the needle in haystack problem -- also cf no 3 above? Do you care to give a substantial response to that, or do you only want to play at turnabout rhetoric and dismissive remarks about others? KFkairosfocus
August 4, 2014
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Is this comment helpful? I could offer "Many religious people want evolution to be false / design to be true no matter what the evidence". I din't see either advancing dialogue. And I don't think anyone has enough time to imitate the inimitable BA77.rich
August 4, 2014
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JERRY: Second, for a large part of history, humans ascribed lots of events to supernatural powers. Including the present; if you don't believe it then you haven't sampled late night talk radio lately. And sir, you might try to come up with a natural source for nature that the everyman can understand, good luck with that. Multiverse babble just doesn't cut it, it leaves the everyman out so that the theorists become a priesthood with their own privileged 'understanding'. So as it is, a belief in something superior to nature as nature's source is itself natural, and the reason human beings throughout history have universally taken to this natural outlook. You have to be really naive to think otherwise. Modern society has disposed of that. Nonsense. In the most modern of societies, the United States, a clear majority rejects instead the cult of Darwinism whether neo- or not, and its 19th century non-scientist figurehead. It is intellectually satisfying to know that superstition is nonsense. ID reintroduces superstition and it is difficult to admit there is some unknown force, an intelligent one, that controls our destiny. The second sentence is mostly incoherent, its second phrase with an undefined subject. The first sentence is seemingly true for a person thinking superstition includes the belief in human beings as not soulless. You will never convince the majority that your belief in personal obliteration in the end constitutes a sane, existentially coherent worldview. I proved this to myself not only during two periods of atheism in my past but in the following scenario. I was commenting in P.Z. Myer's blog nine years ago. P.Z. had commented that he would rather experience brain damage than experience religious belief. I immediately pointed out that the good man would not only experience brain damage, but more; he would experience brain annihilation in conjunction with his hoped-for personal annihilation. Now on his blog, the website will forward to your email any contributor's comments intended for your inbox, and I got a handful of angry comebacks including one from P.Z. in my inbox. Now this is pretty insane, when I calmly point out the obvious implications of a worldview to those subscribing to it, and it makes them angry. And one of the angry people berated me for bringing up death, such a downer subject. So you might reconsider the claim that materialism is all peachy and satisfying.groovamos
August 4, 2014
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jerry @ 4 If you prefer to discuss science without 'too much' philosophical or theological chatting, I invite you to look at the thread about "The Third Way" (see the link below). Notice that in that thread I have posted (so far) over 180 links to scientific reports from relatively recent research publications, many taken from top high-impact peer-reviewed publications. Now, since you seem to be a defender of pure untainted science, I dare you to explain how we got the complex systems described in my posts in the mentioned thread. Please, stick to pure untainted scientific explanations, provide as many details as you can, and make sure your explanation is coherent, holds water and can withstand any intensive interrogation. Note that science poorly understands the detailed functioning of many mechanisms referred in my posts, hence your task is quite challenging. As you will see, the folks from "The Third Way" would appreciate your assistance, because they can use a little help from their friends ;-) Ready? Go for it! Please, keep us updated on your progress. Take your time, don't rush it. But perhaps this is a piece of cake for you? Here's the mentioned link: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/a-third-way-of-evolution/#commentsDionisio
August 4, 2014
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D: Sobering insights from a very old book. But then, we don't tell truth by the clock or the calendar. KF PS: My fav defn of truth comes from another old book, Ari in Metaphysics, Bk IV 1011b: truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not that it is not.kairosfocus
August 4, 2014
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Jerry: Interesting point. If I catch you right, in short, the deep seated prejudices of an era dominated by evolutionary materialism are being used to smear and dismiss an unwelcome inductive logic and linked analysis-rooted idea that cuts across the comfort zones of secularist orthodoxy. The problems with that are fairly obvious, as evo mat is self refuting (and inherently amoral thus tending to be corrosive of the moral foundations of the community [noted since Plato in The Laws Bk X c 360 BC]. . . regardless of hot claims to the contrary), and what is at stake is the empirical and analytical credibility of its lab coat clad origins narrative. After 150 or 80+ years for macro-evo and OOL, resp, the issue is: laying censorship and strawman tactics aside, what is the empirical ground for your claims? And, the ancient observation that the human heart is desperately wicked and deceitful is all too well substantiated by the long reaches of history. Including, the history of proudly scientific secularist regimes. And, BTW, when deep worldview commitments are at stake and there is intense polarisation, progress is typically generational. KFkairosfocus
August 4, 2014
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"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9
In the Old Testament, the “heart” is more than the seat of emotion. It represents the basis of character, including the mind and the will. [Reformation Study Bible by Ligonier Ministries]
"Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it" Proverbs 4:23 (NIV) "The heart of the wise makes his speech judicious and adds persuasiveness to his lips." Proverbs 16:23 (ESV)
Dionisio
August 4, 2014
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I believe what we are dealing with is two fold. First, there a tremendous resistance to organized religion as just some authoritarian power telling you what can and cannot be done based on some ancient assessment of what is required. You see most religions trying to modernize, such as accommodating abortion, same sex marriage, equal roles for men and women, sexual expression, etc. ID comes across as part of this old time religion. I know it has nothing to do with that but it is intertwined with religion. Just look at the comments here by pro ID people. Second, for a large part of history, humans ascribed lots of events to supernatural powers. Modern society has disposed of that. It is intellectually satisfying to know that superstition is nonsense. ID reintroduces superstition and it is difficult to admit there is some unknown force, an intelligent one, that controls our destiny. There are thousands of creation stories which we admit are nonsense. So why isn't ID just another one of these superstitious stories that will eventually be explained away. To the intellectually elite we are just a temporary annoyance. I don't believe it is one funeral at a time since that is not what ID is. It is not just an alternative theory of nature. It is a another creation story to most, the reintroduction of superstition.jerry
August 4, 2014
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BA77: Yup, Behe does point out the obvious as admitted by Dawkins etc, but one of the problems we are seeing is that we are dealing with those programmed to apply selective hyperskepticism to dismiss the obvious when it does not fit the preferred ideology. (I think that lies behind a lot of what we see.) Never mind, that the vera causa test is involved: we are addressing a remote unobserved past and should constrain explanations by the requisite of showing actual observed capacity to account for relevant phenomena. Nor, are such moved by the sort of search space blind sampling challenge outlined above, they imagine that by demanding an exact probability calc they can dismiss anything linked to FSCO/I. EL, RTH et al, kindly note, that is a fallacy. The point of a needle in haystack limited resources search challenge is that we already know that a relatively tiny sample of size s of a very large population W, with all but logical certainty, will reflect the bulk, not rare, isolated tiny special zones T. We don't need precise probability calcs to see that. Further, it is patent that a sample of a set is a subset, and so it comes from the power set of W. That means the search for an unreasonably effective search comes from a much higher order space than a direct search. With overwhelming space to be directly searched already, that is a dead end. We don't need a precise probability calc to see that either. Likewise, there is but one well known, empirically well supported solution to the problem of overwhelming search: guidance, the provision of active information that puts one close to a hot zone, effectively collapsing the search. And no, the fact that we can only sample a small fragment of W is the problem, so the notion of restating it on the assumption it must have worked, as if that is the solution fails also. Yes, we can only scan a small part of the space; unless guided to the RIGHT small part or a right small part, so that we can for instance scan for uphill direction of improved function and hill climb, to assume or imply that presto we are in the right place to start with begs the question at stake. In short, once we are on a beach we can sense and move uphill, assuming reasonable smoothness, but the problem was to find an island with a beach. This of course first shows the relevance of the OOL issue: the FIRST island of function has to be found. It also, points to the second one: onward islands are even more isolated. A simple cell, so called, credibly requires a genome 100 - 1,000 kbases. Main body plans, 10 - 100+ mn bases more, on simple examination of genomes. Notice, no exact probability calcs required so far. I saved the "best" for last. The tree of life model, notoriously, begins at OOL (that notorious Smithsonian OOL blob), and branches, implicitly implying there is a smoothly graded incrementally improving path across a vast continent of possible life forms from molecules to Mozart. Of this there is simply no good evidence and indeed Amino Acid sequence space and protein fold domains analysis shows that we do have a strong pattern of deeply isolated islands of function in a space dominated by seas of non-function. All this is quite consistent with the message of FSCO/I: when function emerges from the interaction of a cluster of matched, properly arranged, oriented and coupled parts, these constraints point straight to tight constraints on the set of arrangements that will work, as opposed tot he vastly more numerous patterns that won't. And of course, we are still looking at sampling challenges without needing to do an exact probability calculation. The exact probability calc red herring led away to a strawman conveniently set up to be pummelled, fails. KFkairosfocus
August 4, 2014
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And it is not as if the evidence has not been abundantly forthcoming for ID. Dr. Behe, author of 'Darwin's Black Box', makes the observation, as even prominent Darwinists admit, that 'life reeks of design':
Michael Behe - Life Reeks Of Design - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdh-YcNYThY
Thus Darwinists see the design, admit that the 'appearance of design' is overwhelming, but their hearts refuse to accept it: Verse and Music:
Jeremiah 17:10 “I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.” Evanescence - My Heart Is Broken http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/my-heart-is-broken/USWV41100052
bornagain77
August 4, 2014
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Do we progress one funeral at a time?kairosfocus
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