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The bionic antinomy of Darwinism

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Do you remember when I said “when a thing is untrue, if we say it is true we get contradictions” (The Darwinism contradiction of repair systems)? Here I will deal with another contradiction of Darwinism: that we could name its “bionic antinomy”.

According to Wikipedia “Bionics (also known as biomimetics, bio-inspiration, biognosis, biomimicry, or bionical creativity engineering) is the application of biological methods and systems found in nature to the study and design of engineering systems and modern technology.” In fact, whether we analyze the history of technology, we find how often technical innovations and systems take inspiration from natural models. For some of the more recent examples of biomimetics see The 15 Coolest Cases of Biomimicry. This article synthetically defines bionics as “biologically inspired engineering”.

Bionics divides in sub-fields. For example, robotics, cybernetics and Artificial Intelligence try even to simulate the human body and mind. By the way these research fields are far from having achieved their long-term goal: to construct an artificial intelligent living being. These sub-fields of bionics, despite they are at the forefront of the technological advance, are those where the qualitative differences between artificial and natural systems are maximum. Matters of principle do exist that scientists never will succeed in such task of artificial creation of a true intelligent living being. Yes they will succeed to construct a robot simulating a human, but this robot will be neither really intelligent nor living. And less than less it will be a real “being” either. But this is another story…

The story herein is the strange phenomenon that happens when bionic and biological systems are put on the same table and compared. When a system “biologically inspired” to a certain biological system is considered in technology the terminology applied to it is engineering jargon (what else). When that biological system itself is considered in biology the terminology applied is purely Darwinian. For example, before the sonar of a submarine they say it is sophisticated engineering; before the sonar of a bat they say it is natural selection. This odd double standard always struck me.

What makes this double standard even more absurd is that, as noted above about robotics, the natural systems usually are more optimized and efficient than the equivalent artificial ones. For example, the bats have an echometer emitting 100 kHz supersonic pulses at a frequency of 30 times per second. These waves are reflected and distorted by the surrounding objects and their echoes are intercepted and elaborated by the bat to catch its prey and also just to get around. The signal processing of these echoes is so accurate to allow bats to fly, twisting, looping and zig-zagging through the air, into a completely dark room intersected by tens pianoforte strings without grazing them. The bat’s echometer has more accuracy, more efficiency, less power consumption and less size than any artificial sonar constructed by engineers. What … technological jewel! And many other wonderful examples could be considered in nature.

Let’s try to formalize somehow as a very logic antinomy the double standard situation described above.

(1) Intelligence is what creates and optimizes artificial systems by inserting complex specified information into them. Intelligence is the unique source of CSI.
(2) Bionic systems are fully created by intelligence. Say B the CSI of a bionic system, B > 0.
(3) A bionic system is less efficient than the similar natural system (say N its CSI). Then B < N.
(4) Natural systems are not created by intelligence, then N = 0. This is the fundamental axiom of Darwinian evolution: natural systems seem to be designed by intelligence but it is an illusion only.
(5) From #3 (B < N) and #4 (N = 0) we have B < 0.
(6) From #2 and #5 we have in the same time B > 0 and B < 0, i.e. an absurdum.

The above reasoning logically proves that the evolutionist double standard is a very antinomy. In all logic antinomies there is at least a premise that is untrue. I am sure the UD readers will have no difficulty to discover that the false premise is #4, indeed the Darwinian main hypothesis (all species arose by unintelligent natural processes).
There is a teaching for evolutionists here (as in all other contradictions of Darwinism), simply they cannot have it both ways: biological systems undesigned and their artificial clones designed. Since they cannot deny design in artificial clones, they should resign themselves to consider as designed their biological archetypes too.

Comments
Mung: What is the evidence of this in the case of bat echolocation?
You can't expect to look at a single posited transition and discern Common Descent. However, there is a vast amount of data supporting Common Descent. From that fundamental finding we can make a variety of predictions—such as where to look for answers to the question of which came first, flight or sonar. It's no accident that evolutionary biologists are the ones who make these sorts of discoveries. The evidence supports the flight-first hypothesis. Echolocation evolved from more primitive hearing. Simmons et al., Primitive Early Eocene bat from Wyoming and the evolution of flight and echolocation, Nature 2007.Zachriel
November 17, 2009
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Mung:
But first there would need to be a system in place in which the “minimization of energy costs” could take place.
Nakashima @77
Yes, such system is the natural world. At the level of the individual, the ’system’ is heredity and reproduction, which both creates variance and passes on the existing traits that have varied.
We were specifically discussing the system of bat echolocation, and that is the system which you averred would be evolved towards “minimization of energy costs.” But before the "bat echolocation system" could evolve toward “minimization of energy costs” it would first have to evolved. In my comment above, it is this system I am referring to. Where did it come from, and why not assume that as it came into being it was already finely adjusted to minimize of energy costs?
Nor should we assume that what we see in nature is the ‘best possible’ organism.
Or the best possible system to minimize energy cost. This is exactly the problem Darwin had with adaptations. They seemed entirely too precise. He cold not believe that they could have been formed to such precision according to the mechanism of his theory. It would simply be too improbable, indiscernible from a miracle. Therefore it follows that such a system must have evolved from a "less perfect" or "less optimal" precursor. What is the evidence of this in the case of bat echolocation?Mung
November 17, 2009
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Nakashima:
We still have our little programming exercise to do.
How about in Ruby and/or Ruby on Rails if we want a database back-end and web front-end? http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ http://rubyonrails.org/ This is an exercise I'd love to go through some time, constructing a basic pop gen app and building on it. Do you know of any books that do this?Mung
November 17, 2009
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Mr BA^77, Why don’t you show an example of increased functional complexity in the first place, then let’s argue over the details? Sound fair? Not while we still have Genetic Entropy on the table. We still have our little programming exercise to do. How is your JavaScript?Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Mr BA^77, Nak what are you worried about 140 or 42 or whatever functional bits when you can’t even demonstrate ANY gain in functional complexity? So Kirk Durston was good for a few posts, and now what is he, chopped liver? Just as a side point, do you have any respect for your sources? Your debating style is to flog a source and beat your opponents around the head with it until it is pointed out that you are using a rubber chicken, then you throw it away and move on to the next one. I just get the impression sometimes that you have the same feeling about them that I do - all sizzle, no steak, all hat, no cattle. But its ok, you're making it up on volume...Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Well Nak, Why don't you show an example of increased functional complexity in the first place, then let's argue over the details? Sound fair? I mean really Nak, shouldn't we actually have an example of evolution to argue over??? Or do you just want to argue in case you ever find an example? Seems pointless to me!bornagain77
November 17, 2009
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Mr BA^77, Kalinsky is playing the same games as Durston was, quoting a formula, then making up how to use it. There is no single number such as "Inat" that can be derived with this formula.Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Nak what are you worried about 140 or 42 or whatever functional bits when you can't even demonstrate ANY gain in functional complexity? Intelligent Design: Required by Biological Life? K.D. Kalinsky - Pg. 10 - 11 Case Three: an average 300 amino acid protein: Excerpt: It is reasonable, therefore, to estimate the functional information required for the average 300 amino acid protein to be around 700 bits of information. I(Ex) > Inat and ID (Intelligent Design) is 10^155 times more probable than mindless natural processes to produce the average protein. http://www.newscholars.com/papers/ID%20Web%20Article.pdfbornagain77
November 17, 2009
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Mr BA^77, Okay, so you can't program, and don't see anything wrong with my definition. Let's talk about this number 140 Fits. Where does it come from? How did Mr Durston derive it using Szostak's formula? Easy, he made it up! I watched the video you linked to, though I've seen it before. 140 is the negative log2 of 1/(10^42). In Szostak's formula, the numerator is the number of functional configurations there are, and the denominator is the total number of configurations. 10^42 is the total configurations of what? Of nothing, really. At best, it is Durston's estimate of the number of DNA base mutations that could have occured over the history of the planet. And 1, that is the number of functional configurations of what? So Durston takes a formula from a real paper, applies his own definitions of the variables, and cranks out a number. Why do you expect me to take this seriously? Consider the advice of Szostak's original paper (the one you linked to): We conclude that rigorous analysis of the functional information of a system with respect to a specified function x requires knowledge of two attributes: (i) all possible configurations of the system (e.g., all possible sequences of a given length in the case of letters or RNA nucleotides) and (ii) the degree of function x for every configuration. These two requirements are difficult to meet in many systems. You further demand the use of the parent environment. This makes as much sense as evaluating your function under water. Well, if you say so...Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Tell you what Nak, You respond to the question I, and others on UD, have asked you a thousand times. Please provide direct molecular evidence for evolution of functional complexity greater than what was present in parent species genome in parent bacteria"s native environment (140 Fits). This is a trivial level of real world proof Nak we generate +700 fits every time we write a single page of a letter. If you refuse to answer this direct question but only seek to misdirect with superfluous evolutionary algorithms, algorithms that has been shown to be highly argumentative, of what use is your "science" save to deceive?bornagain77
November 17, 2009
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Thank you, Nakashima-san. It was not easy to locate the correct link in bornagain77's link jungle #81, but I found it.jitsak
November 17, 2009
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Mr Jitsak, In message 81, Mr BA^77 provides a link to the SourceForge site for Mendels Accountant.Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Matters of principle do exist that scientists never will succeed in such task of artificial creation of a true intelligent living being. Yes they will succeed to construct a robot simulating a human, but this robot will be neither really intelligent nor living. And less than less it will be a real “being” either.
We do not know that yet and we never will unless we try.
Not sure if Seversky is still paying attention but this actually interests me somewhat. How would we know if we have succeeded in creating AI that is equivalent to humans? What sort of tests would we run or what criteria would we use to judge that?tragic mishap
November 17, 2009
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Mr Rude, Anyway this is all very interesting because it represents another opportunity to study the limits of evolution. Absolutely correct. Read David Goldberg's "The Design of Innovation" to see some of that being worked out.Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Mr BA^77, I asked you to step outside your comfort zone, not respond with rudeness and indirection. Can you program? What was wrong with my one sentence definition of evolution? Are you willing to work to create evidence?Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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We should always be able to duplicate an algorithm on a different platform. There may be some small differences, depending on the exact assumptions made, but they shouldn't have qualitatively different results. That's why when verifying Mendel's Accountant, it was rather surprising that the results didn't comport with other models. This is the basic recursive algorithm:
Random mutation Calc Genetic Fitness Phylogenetic Fitness (add noise to Genetic Fitness) Selection Mating and Recombination Check for Extinction (Phylogenetic Fitness represents the slings and arrows of fortune.)
It took a while to plow through all the code for Mendel's, but there is a rather strange step. The calculation of "working fitness," which represents differential mating success, appears to be broken.
do i=1,total_offspring work_fitness(i) = work_fitness(i)/(randomnum(1) + 1.d-15) end do
Divide by random!? We can test the effect of this by taking a uniform series of fitnesses k from 1.001 to 2. This is a typical result:
9 Average 31 St.Dev. 362% Relative St.Dev. 1.04 Min 533 Max
The distribution of k has a Relative St.Dev. of 19%. It's worse for fitnesses distributed between 0.5 and 1.5 or 0.5 and 1. Just like the calculation for phylogenetic fitness elsewhere in the algorithm, the calculation is not normalized, meaning it becomes increasingly skewed as the mean diverges from one. (And why ÷Rnd^1? Why not ÷Rnd^½ or ÷Rnd^¾?) This single operation, buried in the code, eliminates the vast majority of the signal from genetic or phylogenetic fitness. A more reasonable calculation of differential mating success, Roulette Wheel, along with normalization, is used in Gregor's Bookkeeper.Zachriel
November 17, 2009
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Maybe whatever evolutionary scenario a designed computer program can be programmed to simulate is but a species of machine learning. Cannot, for example, a robot randomingly probing about have been programmed to map the region being randomly probed? That would certainly amount to an increase in information. Anyway this is all very interesting because it represents another opportunity to study the limits of evolution. I would suggest that man can design machines programmed to discover, and as such this would involve a degree of chance and necessity—chance because discovery involves unknowns and necessity because the machine would have to “know” in advance what to select (if it selected everything this wouldn’t be information until a human went through it and picked out what was important). Stephen Meyer, of course, deals with computer programs such as Ev and Avida in Signature in the Cell. Information and Design and Mind are where it’s at—the open frontier where science is headed if the reactionaries and postmodernists don’t get us first.Rude
November 17, 2009
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Hmm Nak, You pathetically have no real world evidence thus allude to computer models which have been shown to require dishonesty to make them work. Why don't you just present the empirical evidence for evolution? Why must your allude to such shady deception/delusion to continue you fantasy that your great great grand pappy was a mud puddle? Do you really care about the boundary condition between matter/energy and information? i.e. the second law? Thermodynamic Argument Against Evolution (Open System Refutation) Part 3 of 3 - Thomas Kindell - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQBjguaBueE "there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems." John Ross, Chemical and Engineering News, 7 July 1980 Can “ANYTHING” Happen in an Open System? - Granville Sewell Excerpt: If we found evidence that DNA, auto parts, computer chips, and books entered through the Earth’s atmosphere at some time in the past, then perhaps the appearance of humans, cars, computers, and encyclopedias on a previously barren planet could be explained without postulating a violation of the second law here (it would have been violated somewhere else!). http://www.math.utep.edu/Faculty/sewell/articles/appendixd.pdf Evolution's Thermodynamic Failure - Granville Sewell (Professor of Mathematics Texas University - El Paso) http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=9128 Walter L. Bradley, Information, Entropy, and the Origin of Life: Excerpt: He clarifies the distinction between configurational and thermal entropy, and shows why materialistic theories of chemical evolution have not explained the configurational entropy present in living systems, a feature of living systems that Bradley takes to be strong evidence of intelligent design. http://www.discovery.org/a/2640 The ID argument from thermodynamics: Excerpt: "energy cannot create CSI (Complex Specified Information)." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-id-argument-from-thermodynamics/#more-9090 Professor Arthur E. Wilder-Smith "Any amounts of polypeptide which might be formed will be broken down into their initial components (amino acids) by the excess of water. The ocean is thus practically the last place on this or any other planet where the proteins of life could be formed spontaneously from amino acids. Yet nearly all text-books of biology teach this nonsense to support evolutionary theory and spontaneous biogenesis ... Has materialistic Neo-Darwinian philosophy overwhelmed us to such an extent that we forget or overlook the well-known facts of science and of chemistry in order to support this philosophy? ... Without exception all Miller's amino acids are completely unsuitable for any type of spontaneous biogenesis. And the same applies to all and any randomly formed substances and amino acids which form racemates. This statement is categorical and absolute and cannot be affected by special conditions." http://theevolutioncrisis.org.uk/testimony3.php Sea Salt only adds to this thermodynamic problem. ...even at concentrations seven times weaker than in today’s oceans. The ingredients of sea salt are very effective at dismembering membranes and preventing RNA units (monomers) from forming polymers any longer than two links (dimers). Creation Evolution News - Sept. 2002bornagain77
November 17, 2009
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Also, since Zachriel is now unbanned, perhaps he can review the issues found in the source code of Mendel's Accountant, and what biological systems it is relevant to modeling. As a pop gen model (that rigorous math which you questioned the existence of) it seems to model the problems of small populations of bacteria. How quaint.Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Mr BA^77, Whereas, evolution has no rigorous mathematical foundation with which we can rigorously analyze it in any computer simulation: Let me introduce you to the field of population genetics, perhaps you haven't heard of it before. Price's Theorem? John Holland's Schema Theorem? But come, let us reason together. I gave you a definiton of evolution as an abstract process that might happen in many contexts, not just the biological world. I put it all in one sentence for you. Is there any part of that sentence, a phrase, or even a single word, that you disagree is not appropriate to define evolution? I am asking you, Mr BA^77, for some intellectual effort, not a cut and paste of a quotemine. Any single word you would change? Because the next step we'll take together is to turn our agreed definition into code and run it. Are you up for that? Can you program? Can you read code? Tell me what language you are best with, we'll work in that. Once our code is ready, we'll run it. You'll trust evidence that you created, right?Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Nak, Is this your evidence for evolution? Is this a joke?
"Evolution, defined as a change in allele frequencies over time in a population with variable and heritable traits, subject to scarce resources where the traits influence survival, can be confirmed on your PC."
No actual evidence just simulations in a PC? You are kidding right,,, No really Nak specific evidence!!! Well since you then go on to cite/deceive that Dembski favors your position, let's see what Dembski and others say about the man-made, thus fallible, Evolutionary algorithms of computers: It is also extremely interesting to note, the principle of Genetic Entropy lends itself very well to mathematical analysis by computer simulation: "No human investigation can be called true science without passing through mathematical tests." Leonardo Da Vinci Using Computer Simulation to Understand Mutation Accumulation Dynamics and Genetic Load: excerpt: We apply a biologically realistic forward-time population genetics program to study human mutation accumulation under a wide-range of circumstances. Using realistic estimates for the relevant biological parameters, we investigate the rate of mutation accumulation, the distribution of the fitness effects of the accumulating mutations, and the overall effect on mean genotypic fitness. Our numerical simulations consistently show that deleterious mutations accumulate linearly across a large portion of the relevant parameter space. http://bioinformatics.cau.edu.cn/lecture/chinaproof.pdf MENDEL’S ACCOUNTANT: J. SANFORD†, J. BAUMGARDNER‡, W. BREWER§, P. GIBSON¶, AND W. REMINE http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net http://www.scpe.org/vols/vol08/no2/SCPE_8_2_02.pdf Whereas, evolution has no rigorous mathematical foundation with which we can rigorously analyze it in any computer simulation: Accounting for Variations - Dr. David Berlinski: - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2GkDkimkE LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW - William Dembski - Robert Marks - Pg. 13 Excerpt: Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://www.evoinfo.org/Publications/ConsInfo_NoN.pdf The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity - David L. Abel Excerpt: "To stem the growing swell of Intelligent Design intrusions, it is imperative that we provide stand-alone natural process evidence of non trivial self-organization at the edge of chaos. We must demonstrate on sound scientific grounds the formal capabilities of naturally-occurring physicodynamic complexity. Evolutionary algorithms, for example, must be stripped of all artificial selection and the purposeful steering of iterations toward desired products. The latter intrusions into natural process clearly violate sound evolution theory." http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf "Computer simulations of Darwinian evolution fail when they are honest and succeed only when they are not." David Berlinski "... no operation performed by a computer can create new information." Douglas G. Robertson, "Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test," Complexity, Vol.3, #3 Jan/Feb 1999, pp. 25-34. The Evolutionary Informatics Lab: Yet: The human genome, according to Bill Gates the founder of Microsoft, far, far surpasses, in complexity, any computer program ever written by man. Where did all this "transcendent information come from? Euler's Number - God Created Mathematics - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IEb1gTRo74 This related website has the complete working out of the math of Pi and e in the Bible, in the Hebrew and Greek languages: http://www.biblemaths.com/pag03_pie/bornagain77
November 17, 2009
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BA^77 (and onlookers) have you ever run a GA or pop gen program for yourself? Played with the parameters? Thought about the results?Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Mr BA^77, And to what specific evidence, not philosophy, do you point to base this assumption? Happily, this touches again on the bionics of the OP. Evolution, defined as a change in allele frequencies over time in a population with variable and heritable traits, subject to scarce resources where the traits influence survival, can be confirmed on your PC. Probably on your cell phone. Very small genetic algorithm and population genetic programs exist that confirm this process. This is evidence you can create for yourself, anyone can. I don't know anyone on the ID side that denies it does happen. Drs Dembski, Behe, etc. are on board with evolution, deep time and common descent. Is your position different?Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Nak, And to what specific evidence, not philosophy, do you point to base this assumption?bornagain77
November 17, 2009
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Mr Mung, But first there would need to be a system in place in which the “minimization of energy costs” could take place. Yes, such system is the natural world. Populations of varied traits in competition for scarce resources. Efficiency in resource use (minimizing energy costs) leads to more frequent survival. At the level of the individual, the 'system' is heredity and reproduction, which both creates variance and passes on the existing traits that have varied. Nor should we assume that what we see in nature is the 'best possible' organism. It is only the current survivor. There are multiple solutions to eyes, flight, echolocation, conserving heat, eating etc. across birds, bats, and moths.Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Nakashima @40
Minimizing the energy costs of flying and finding food would strongly selected for by evolution.
That may be true. But first there would need to be a system in place in which the "minimization of energy costs" could take place. Else you would be arguing that "the best possible system" just happend to be the original system that evolved, rather than a less optimal system that was subsequently modified.Mung
November 16, 2009
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Mr BA^77, I agree with you on some aspects of Rare Earth as I've said. I'm sorry you find me so disappointing to converse with. It is this sad preference for material explanations that dogs me... Friends have tried to get me to accept a Thor based worldview as the best explanation of the material world, but something keeps holding me back...Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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Nota Bene: I am not Dr. Dembski (unfortunately), rather niwrad.
Oops, forgive me for my mistake.
Tell me my reading of your post is incorrect, I hope you don’t really support the following evolutionist contradiction: artifacts are designed, organisms that are far more complex and information rich because self-reproduce are not designed!
Most definitely not; I believe all organisms display the appearance of design. However, I come from a purely agnostic viewpoint, so the exact nature of the designer is summarily not of interest to me and obviously unattainable under the current state of scientific affairs.
The adjective “immortal” (= “eternal”) you used is exaggerated for at least two reasons. First they need specific environmental chemical/physical conditions suitable to their processes. For example, temperature differences of few degrees may be lethal. These fine tuned conditions are not eternal, and then bacteria are not immortal.
I noted the special conditions for life in my previous post.
Second, at the individual level, when a bacterium divides, in a sense it – as individual – dies, although doing that it generates two new individuals. Therefore, properly speaking, what has a long duration is the species and not the single bacterium (and this is relatively true for higher organisms too).
I fear we are quibbling over minutiae. Would you then accept the definition of a "species" as a living organism? I.E., the human body can be viewed as a large colony of organic systems, each constructed by a smaller set of organic components than the last (until of course you start getting down far enough to the level of inorganic molecules). The exact line we draw to differentiate is simply arbitrary at best, unless we can come up with an objective justification for doing so.
That said, it is true that systems more are lower/simple less the action of entropy on them. IOW more complexity more entropy. But also this supports intelligent design. In fact ID is the only thing able to counterbalances entropy. If complex systems (where entropy is maximum) exist and subsist this means they were created by ID.
I have no quarrel with what is being said here. However, is there currently a way to objectively measure the complexity of a given system vs. the complexity of a second system? I.E., a bacterium vs. a human body?Leviathan
November 16, 2009
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Nak, Here is a song for you, perfectly fitting for your refusal to face the evidence square on, and to want live in a fantasy dream world: Tori Amos Cornflake Girl http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1db7r_tori-amos-cornflake-girl-us-version_musicbornagain77
November 16, 2009
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Nak, it is not that it is not worth defending, in fact there are several fascinating things in the "Privileged Planet Principle" that are wonderful, it is that it not worth discussing with you since you do not a reasonable discussion, go down every blind alley you can find, ignore all the jewels to be found and, As far as I can tell, you only want to believe in your dogmatic atheism no matter what imagination you have to conjure and lie you have to believe in order to do so. Why you are allowed such leeway I have no idea.bornagain77
November 16, 2009
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