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The bionic antinomy of Darwinism

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Do you remember when I said “when a thing is untrue, if we say it is true we get contradictions” (The Darwinism contradiction of repair systems)? Here I will deal with another contradiction of Darwinism: that we could name its “bionic antinomy”.

According to Wikipedia “Bionics (also known as biomimetics, bio-inspiration, biognosis, biomimicry, or bionical creativity engineering) is the application of biological methods and systems found in nature to the study and design of engineering systems and modern technology.” In fact, whether we analyze the history of technology, we find how often technical innovations and systems take inspiration from natural models. For some of the more recent examples of biomimetics see The 15 Coolest Cases of Biomimicry. This article synthetically defines bionics as “biologically inspired engineering”.

Bionics divides in sub-fields. For example, robotics, cybernetics and Artificial Intelligence try even to simulate the human body and mind. By the way these research fields are far from having achieved their long-term goal: to construct an artificial intelligent living being. These sub-fields of bionics, despite they are at the forefront of the technological advance, are those where the qualitative differences between artificial and natural systems are maximum. Matters of principle do exist that scientists never will succeed in such task of artificial creation of a true intelligent living being. Yes they will succeed to construct a robot simulating a human, but this robot will be neither really intelligent nor living. And less than less it will be a real “being” either. But this is another story…

The story herein is the strange phenomenon that happens when bionic and biological systems are put on the same table and compared. When a system “biologically inspired” to a certain biological system is considered in technology the terminology applied to it is engineering jargon (what else). When that biological system itself is considered in biology the terminology applied is purely Darwinian. For example, before the sonar of a submarine they say it is sophisticated engineering; before the sonar of a bat they say it is natural selection. This odd double standard always struck me.

What makes this double standard even more absurd is that, as noted above about robotics, the natural systems usually are more optimized and efficient than the equivalent artificial ones. For example, the bats have an echometer emitting 100 kHz supersonic pulses at a frequency of 30 times per second. These waves are reflected and distorted by the surrounding objects and their echoes are intercepted and elaborated by the bat to catch its prey and also just to get around. The signal processing of these echoes is so accurate to allow bats to fly, twisting, looping and zig-zagging through the air, into a completely dark room intersected by tens pianoforte strings without grazing them. The bat’s echometer has more accuracy, more efficiency, less power consumption and less size than any artificial sonar constructed by engineers. What … technological jewel! And many other wonderful examples could be considered in nature.

Let’s try to formalize somehow as a very logic antinomy the double standard situation described above.

(1) Intelligence is what creates and optimizes artificial systems by inserting complex specified information into them. Intelligence is the unique source of CSI.
(2) Bionic systems are fully created by intelligence. Say B the CSI of a bionic system, B > 0.
(3) A bionic system is less efficient than the similar natural system (say N its CSI). Then B < N.
(4) Natural systems are not created by intelligence, then N = 0. This is the fundamental axiom of Darwinian evolution: natural systems seem to be designed by intelligence but it is an illusion only.
(5) From #3 (B < N) and #4 (N = 0) we have B < 0.
(6) From #2 and #5 we have in the same time B > 0 and B < 0, i.e. an absurdum.

The above reasoning logically proves that the evolutionist double standard is a very antinomy. In all logic antinomies there is at least a premise that is untrue. I am sure the UD readers will have no difficulty to discover that the false premise is #4, indeed the Darwinian main hypothesis (all species arose by unintelligent natural processes).
There is a teaching for evolutionists here (as in all other contradictions of Darwinism), simply they cannot have it both ways: biological systems undesigned and their artificial clones designed. Since they cannot deny design in artificial clones, they should resign themselves to consider as designed their biological archetypes too.

Comments
Mr BA^77, Nak, believe what you want you will, and do, anyway no matter what evidence is presented to you. So you agree that Dr Ross' bait and switch on "life supporting body" is not worth defending. A wise choice.Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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Leviathan #61 Nota Bene: I am not Dr. Dembski (unfortunately), rather niwrad. Tell me my reading of your post is incorrect, I hope you don’t really support the following evolutionist contradiction: artifacts are designed, organisms that are far more complex and information rich because self-reproduce are not designed!
I hope you will agree that bacteria are, for all intents and purposes, immortal – given that their life is not pre-empted by a predator.
The adjective "immortal" (= "eternal") you used is exaggerated for at least two reasons. First they need specific environmental chemical/physical conditions suitable to their processes. For example, temperature differences of few degrees may be lethal. These fine tuned conditions are not eternal, and then bacteria are not immortal. Second, at the individual level, when a bacterium divides, in a sense it – as individual – dies, although doing that it generates two new individuals. Therefore, properly speaking, what has a long duration is the species and not the single bacterium (and this is relatively true for higher organisms too). That said, it is true that systems more are lower/simple less the action of entropy on them. IOW more complexity more entropy. But also this supports intelligent design. In fact ID is the only thing able to counterbalances entropy. If complex systems (where entropy is maximum) exist and subsist this means they were created by ID.niwrad
November 16, 2009
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Nak, believe what you want you will, and do, anyway no matter what evidence is presented to you. Leviathan, we ain't even on the same page as far as science is concerned, and from your comments I doubt you are even in the ID camp, but perhaps maybe you are in the ID camp by the slimmest of margins. And Though you may be it seems you are firmly entrenched in the philosophy of materialism to me.bornagain77
November 16, 2009
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BTW, I don't doubt that the Earth is very rare. I've read Rare Earth, and fully expect that if we find life elsewhere it will be very simple. Even if every other planet was equal to Earth, sampling our own 4 billion year history at random points shows what we should expect, at best.Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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Mr BA^77, Since Dr Ross' list of parameters includes the following: time window between the production of cisterns in the planet’s crust that can effectively collect and store petroleum and natural gas and the appearance of intelligent life he obviously is not calculating a probability of a generic life supporting body coming into existence, he is calculating the probability of a specific life supporting body (Earth) coming into existence. He might as well have included the probability of Columbus discovering America. Nor do I know of another researcher so confident in their ability to pin down so many probabilities so definitely. There is only a 30% chance that the infall of buckminsterfullerenes will be the correct value to support the Mets winning the '69 World Series? There is only a 30% chance that the orientation of continents relative to prevailing winds will let Donny Boy win the sixth race at Belmont on August 25, 1966? Our existence is truly balanced on a razor's edge!Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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Bornagain,
That the “mind” of a individual observer would play such an integral yet not complete “closed system role”, in the instantaneous quantum wave collapse of the universe to “3D centrality”, gives us clear evidence that our “mind” is a unique entity.
There is a fundamental disconnect between your conclusion and your premise (at least the one I gleaned from watching that vague and ambiguous Youtube video you linked to). If indeed the "mind" plays an integral role in the instantaneous quantum wave collapse of the universe, it is not a closed system. This is simple logic. Your argument seems akin to the disingenuous claim that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Surely you don't believe this? Furthermore, you have failed to show experimental evidence that there is indeed a "supernatural" component to the human brain that directly correlates with the body in relation to health. If death is simply the soul leaving the body, and has nothing to do with the necessary conditions for life imposed upon that body, then what do we need doctors for? I'll ask again: do you object to the idea that the body is composed of many small, interlocking, working parts that display emergent properties in such a way that if not all the necessary conditions for life are present, the organism ceases living?Leviathan
November 16, 2009
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Leviathan, since Physics directly informs us on what can be known of reality, it directly informs us on what to expect from biology, or as has been said: "Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting." Ernest Rutherford in further note to defend O'Leary's position: That the "mind" of a individual observer would play such an integral yet not complete "closed system role", in the instantaneous quantum wave collapse of the universe to "3D centrality", gives us clear evidence that our "mind" is a unique entity. A unique entity with a superior quality of existence when compared to the "uncertain 3D particles" of the "material" universe. This is clear evidence for the existence of the "higher dimensional soul" of man that supersedes any "material basis" that the soul has been purported to "emerge" from and confirms the theistic postulation for man's being. Quantum Mechanics - The Limited Role Of The Observer - Michael Strauss - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elg83xUZZBs Nak, I can gaze to the heavens and see dust clouds collapsing and infer that it is reasonable that planets, such as our earth, may very well have formed in such a manner. Yet I gaze upon the fossil record and find no gradual transformations to explain novel "kinds" appearing suddenly in the fossil record. Since I know for a fact the entire universe is to have appeared suddenly, I am not left without any avenue of physics to investigate, as the materialists is. In fact from our understanding gained in Quantum mechanics I can most reasonably infer that the cause of the entire universe is the cause we witness in the fossil record. Though you would think that what seems to be slow planet formation may leave an avenue for the materialists to argue from, this avenue is an illusion, for the atheist must find resource to explain the privileged planet principle: excerpt: As opposed to the anthropic hypothesis which starts off by presuming the earth is extremely unique in this universe, materialism begins by presuming planets that are able to support life are fairly common in this universe. In fact astronomer Frank Drake (1930-present) proposed, in 1961, advanced life should be fairly common in the universe. He developed a rather crude equation called the “Drake equation”. He plugged in some rather optimistic numbers and reasoned that ten worlds with advanced life should be in our Milky Way galaxy alone. That worked out to roughly one trillion worlds with advanced life throughout the entire universe. Much to the disappointment of Star Trek fans the avalanche of scientific evidence, which has been coming in recently, has found the probability of finding another planet with the ability to host advanced life in this universe is not nearly as likely as astronomer Frank Drake had originally predicted. Probability For Life On Earth - Michael Strauss - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zfOaXQh2SE There are many independent characteristics required to be fulfilled for any planet to host advanced carbon-based life. Two popular books have recently been written, “The Privileged Planet” by Guillermo Gonzalez and “Rare Earth” by Donald Brownlee, indicating the earth is extremely unique in its ability to host advanced life in this universe. Privileged Planet, which also holds any life supporting world will also be found to allow profound discoveries into the deep mysteries of the universe, has now been made into a video. The Privileged Planet - video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5488284265590289530 There is also a well researched statistical analysis of the many independent "life-enabling characteristics" that mathematically proves the earth is extremely unique in its ability to support complex life. The statistical analysis, which is actually a refinement of the Drake equation, is dealt with by astro-physicist Dr. Hugh Ross (1945-present) in his paper "Probability for Life on Earth". Probability For Life On Earth - List of Parameters, References, and Math - Hugh Ross http://www.reasons.org/probability-life-earth-apr-2004 http://www.johnankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/science/SC2W0304RFT.pdf A few of the items in Dr. Ross's "life-enabling characteristics" list are; Planet location in a proper galaxy's “habitable zone”; Parent star size; Surface gravity of planet; Rotation period of planet; Correct chemical composition of planet; Correct size for moon; Thickness of planets’ crust; Presence of magnetic field; Correct and stable axis tilt; Oxygen to nitrogen ratio in atmosphere; Proper water content of planet; Atmospheric electric discharge rate; Proper seismic activity of planet; Many complex cycles necessary for a stable temperature history of planet; Translucent atmosphere; Various complex cycles for various elements etc.. etc.. I could go a lot further for there are a total of 322 known parameters which have to be met for complex life to be possible on Earth, or on a planet like Earth. Individually, these limits are not that impressive but when we realize ALL these limits have to be met at the same time and not one of them can be out of limits for any extended period of time, then the condition becomes "irreducibly complex" and the probability for a world which can host advanced life in this universe becomes very extraordinary. Here is the final summary of Dr. Hugh Ross's "conservative" estimate for the probability of another life-hosting world in this universe. Probability for occurrence of all 322 parameters =10^388 Dependency factors estimate =10^96 Longevity requirements estimate =10^14 Probability for occurrence of all 322 parameters = 10^304 Maximum possible number of life support bodies in universe =10^22 Thus, less than 1 chance in 10^282 (million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one such life-support body would occur anywhere in the universe without invoking divine miracles. The following is another surprising Privileged Planet parameter which recently came to light: Cosmic Rays Hit Space Age High Excerpt: "The entire solar system from Mercury to Pluto and beyond is surrounded by a bubble of solar magnetism called "the heliosphere." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090929133244.htm The Protective Boundaries of our Solar System - NASA IBEX - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O0qcQZXpII Thus nak, the weight is firmly in favor of Theism, and once again you will retreat to your imagination and snide comments, as you always do when cornered with evidence.bornagain77
November 16, 2009
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Leviathan, from your post here and to Ms. O’Leary, I sincerely doubt you have a firm foundation in the physics.
I fail to see how physics is in any way relevant to the rather simple biology questions I've posed in the above posts. Would you mind going into further detail?Leviathan
November 16, 2009
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Mr BA^77, You cite Dr Wells, But in the 150 years since the publication of Darwin’s Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, no one has ever observed the origin of a new species by natural selection – much less the origin of new organs and body plans. By this logic, I'm sure Dr Wells and yourself are equally skeptical of our current theories of planet formation. In the hundreds of years since Galileo, we have never seen a single new planet being formed.Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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Nak, I knew what you were doing and that credulity is the one in question for you willingly suspend belief in the reality science hands us in order to cling to the belief that your great-great-grand-pappy was a mud puddle. Leviathan, from your post here and to Ms. O'Leary, I sincerely doubt you have a firm foundation in the physics.bornagain77
November 16, 2009
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Dr. Dembski,
As a consequence when evolutionists, to deny design, object that organisms self-reproduce and artifacts do not, they shoot themselves on the foot.
While on the surface this may seem to be a suitable endeavor, it is ultimately doomed to fail on the premise that clearly, as we see in everyday life, engineered artifacts do not undergo the same genome manipulation (and therefore phenotypic changes) that living organisms undergo. In this case, the Darwinian mantra may be correct, but again it is no deterrent to the idea that we cannot detect meaningful design in nature. You go on to say:
Both are subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics: systems unavoidably go towards degradation and advanced mechanisms have to be designed to counter (partially) that trend. I write “partially” because however also organisms finally die under the devastating action of entropy.
Can you give an instance of a single-celled bacterium, while being perpetually supplied with the necessary nutrients and means to life, ceases to exist outside of being actively destroyed by another organism? In this vein, any biologist worth his salt knows that life is a continuous process. I hope you will agree that bacteria are, for all intents and purposes, immortal - given that their life is not pre-empted by a predator. Complex organisms undergo a sort of "entropy" as the one you touched on above, but we must remember that complex organisms are comprised of many, many millions of simpler organisms, and simpler still as we zoom farther and farther in. We must remember to always view biologic systems at the appropriate level. It would not suit a veterinarian to view the dog at the level of microscopic cells anymore than it would suit the microbiologist to view the dog at the macroscopic level!Leviathan
November 16, 2009
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Bornagain,
Of course our resident Darwinian experts could, instead of offering the standard Darwinian fairy tales, tell us exactly, step by step, protein by protein, gene by gene, in a bottom up natural manner, how this multi-tiered system of complexity of the Bats sonar arose via purely naturalistic Darwinian processes. A concise explanation complete with gene knockout experiments and recovery of lost function experiments should suffice.
I feel, as an argument, that this diatribe is especially ineffective seeing as how we as Intelligent Design advocates are consequently required to show, step by step, protein by protein, gene by gene, in a manner consistent with the design mechanism, how this multi-tiered system of complexity of the Bats sonar arose via a source of intelligence. Given that with the current state of affairs that is not humanly possible, it seems rather pedantic to ask it of the Darwinists.Leviathan
November 16, 2009
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Mr BA^77, I'm sorry, I have to admit that I have played upon your credulity. The World Genome Survey has not yet implemented a satellite based real-time genome scan of the entire planet. In fact our ability to record speciation events relies on being there to witness them, and we have poor coverage of most of the globe where speciation events occur. Prof Thomson should have gone on to calculate how many speciation events can be expected in areas we have under observation. Under these more stringent conditions, it makes sense that the two most recent speciations actually observed by the WGS are the 1965 Central Park (NYC) squirrel that evolved the ability to mug tourists (it could differentiate tourists from natives by a willingness to make eye contact), and the 1954 event in which sharks exposed to radiation from underwater atomic blasts evolved lasers on their foreheads.Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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Kontinental #1
Is it legitimate to compare a technical device with living beings who can procreate?
To the goal of the design inference it is more than legitimate. Both artificial and natural systems obey in general to the same scientific laws (in particular to the same chemical/physical and information laws). Both are subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics: systems unavoidably go towards degradation and advanced mechanisms have to be designed to counter (partially) that trend. I write "partially" because however also organisms finally die under the devastating action of entropy. If an artificial system is designed to greater reason its biological counterpart is designed because the self-reproduction feature adds only information. For example, given this discussion deals with bionics, to design a self-reproducing robot is far more difficult than to design a robot not able to self-reproduce. As a consequence when evolutionists, to deny design, object that organisms self-reproduce and artifacts do not, they shoot themselves on the foot.niwrad
November 16, 2009
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Take your pick and how much is your home worth?bornagain77
November 16, 2009
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Mr BA^77, Nak, variation within kind, and I will bet you your home that a loss of genetic diversity from parent kind occurred For which? The beetle or the brine shrimp?Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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Cabal states: Maybe a desire to find confirmation of a religious faith also may lead to wishful thinking? Cabal is that why atheists find confirmation for evolution in every imagination they can conjure up? i.e. why should the atheists "faith" in materialism be any less subject to Criticism than my faith in Theism especially since my "faith" lines up with Quantum Mechanics, Big Bang, Relativity, The Second Law, i.e. why do atheists get a free pass cabal?bornagain77
November 16, 2009
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Further note to cabal: A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have "invented" little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolutionbornagain77
November 16, 2009
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Nak, variation within kind, and I will bet you your home that a loss of genetic diversity from parent kind occurredbornagain77
November 16, 2009
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Mr BA^77, To confirm Prof Thomson's back of the envelope calculation, all you have to do is check the web site of the World Genome Survey. They scan the globe on a real time basis and check the genome of every living organism on the planet, using the same satellite laser technology that the Darwinian Magisterium/Bavarian Illuminati use for mind control. (BTW, they ask me to pass along that your chip needs to be reset, please sit outside today for at least 45 minutes.) Using this remarkable laser technology, they can spot a speciation event no matter where it happens on or under the Earth's surface. You're only a few clicks away from noting the last few speciations - a new beetle that lives on exactly one tree in the Amazon rain forst (recorded in 2003, the tree has since been cut down), and new kind of brine shrimp that can tolerate a higher level of acidity in ocean water (recorded in 2008 in the South Atlantic and really starting to thrive, thanks to global climate change!).Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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Cabal states: As far as I know, in order to observe evolution at work in shorter time spans, experiments on bacteria have been vary successful. But can Cabal find solace in experiments on micro-organisms, since the abruptness and stasis found in the fossil record lends him no "material" comfort? NO!!! Excerpt: Though it is impossible to reconstruct the DNA of these earliest bacteria fossils, scientists find in the fossil record, and compare them to their descendants of today, there are many ancient bacteria spores recovered and "revived" from salt crystals and amber crystals which have been compared to their living descendants of today. Some bacterium spores, in salt crystals, dating back as far as 250 million years have been revived, had their DNA sequenced, and compared to their offspring of today (Vreeland RH, 2000 Nature). To the disbelieving shock of many scientists, both ancient and modern bacteria were found to have the almost same exact DNA sequence. The Paradox of the "Ancient" Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 and this: Revival and identification of bacterial spores in 25- to 40-million-year-old Dominican amber Dr. Cano and his former graduate student Dr. Monica K. Borucki said that they had found slight but significant differences between the DNA of the ancient, 25-40 million year old amber-sealed Bacillus sphaericus and that of its modern counterpart, (thus ruling out that it is a modern contaminant, yet at the same time confounding materialists, since the change is not nearly as great as evolution's "genetic drift" theory requires.) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/268/5213/1060 In reply to a personal e-mail from myself, Dr. Cano commented on the "Fitness Test" I had asked him about: Dr. Cano stated: "We performed such a test, a long time ago, using a panel of substrates (the old gram positive biolog panel) on B. sphaericus. From the results we surmised that the putative "ancient" B. sphaericus isolate was capable of utilizing a broader scope of substrates. Additionally, we looked at the fatty acid profile and here, again, the profiles were similar but more diverse in the amber isolate.": Fitness test which compared the 30 million year old ancient bacteria to its modern day descendants, RJ Cano and MK Borucki Thus, the most solid evidence available for the most ancient DNA scientists are able to find does not support evolution happening on the molecular level of bacteria. In fact, according to the fitness test of Dr. Cano, the change witnessed in bacteria conforms to the exact opposite, Genetic Entropy; a loss of functional information/complexity, since fewer substrates and fatty acids are utilized by the modern strains. Considering the intricate level of protein machinery it takes to utilize individual molecules within a substrate, we are talking an impressive loss of protein complexity, and thus loss of functional information, from the ancient amber sealed bacteria. Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Swine Flu, Viruses, and the Edge of Evolution "Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell--both ones we've discovered so far and ones we haven't--at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It's critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing--neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered--was of much use." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/swine_flu_viruses_and_the_edge.html This following article refutes Lenski's supposed "evolution" of the citrate ability for the E-Coli bacteria after 20,000 generations of the E-Coli: Multiple Mutations Needed for E. Coli - Michael Behe Excerpt: As Lenski put it, “The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under oxic conditions.” (1) Other workers (cited by Lenski) in the past several decades have also identified mutant E. coli that could use citrate as a food source. In one instance the mutation wasn’t tracked down. (2) In another instance a protein coded by a gene called citT, which normally transports citrate in the absence of oxygen, was overexpressed. (3) The overexpressed protein allowed E. coli to grow on citrate in the presence of oxygen. It seems likely that Lenski’s mutant will turn out to be either this gene or another of the bacterium’s citrate-using genes, tweaked a bit to allow it to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen. (He hasn’t yet tracked down the mutation.),,, If Lenski’s results are about the best we've seen evolution do, then there's no reason to believe evolution could produce many of the complex biological features we see in the cell. http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK3U696N278Z93O New Work by Richard Lenski: Excerpt: Interestingly, in this paper they report that the E. coli strain became a “mutator.” That means it lost at least some of its ability to repair its DNA, so mutations are accumulating now at a rate about seventy times faster than normal. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/new_work_by_richard_lenski.html "The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book "Edge of Evolution") Nature Paper,, Finds Darwinian Processes Lacking - Michael Behe - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: Now, thanks to the work of Bridgham et al (2009), even such apparently minor switches in structure and function (of a protein to its supposed ancestral form) are shown to be quite problematic. It seems Darwinian processes can’t manage to do even as much as I had thought. (which was 1 in 10^40 for just 2 binding sites) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/nature_paper_finally_reaches_t.htm lbornagain77
November 16, 2009
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But in the 150 years since the publication of Darwin’s Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, no one has ever observed the origin of a new species by natural selection – much less the origin of new organs and body plans.
From what little I know of evolutionary theory, 150 years seem a somewhat short time to expect new species, new organs or body plans. Besides, seeing how the the current body plan for mammals have stood the test of time for some 50 million years, there appears to be little need for major modifications. Your argument strikes me as being founded on some misconception about what the theory of evolution actually is, and how and why it works. May I suggest that too much effort at thinking in terms of ID and striving to make ID fit the facts may stand in the way of a proper understanding of evolution? As far as I know, in order to observe evolution at work in shorter time spans, experiments on bacteria have been vary successful. Maybe a desire to find confirmation of a religious faith also may lead to wishful thinking?Cabal
November 16, 2009
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You know what's funny Nak, is that even if you could demonstrate a gain of complex functional information, which you can't, you still have to demonstrate that it was a non-teleological, material, process that accomplished the gain in functional information, in order for the base materialistic claim of Darwinism to be validated in the first place i.e. it must be demonstrated that it was unguided, yet this level of empirical validation is now impossible for Darwinists since the hidden variable postulation of quantum mechanics is thoroughly refuted: Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show - July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm i.e. it is conclusively shown that we live in a "theistic" universe where a "completely transcendent first cause' calls all the shots. This is a fact of empirical science nak! If you don't like the implications that's tough and is no excuse for you to pretend/imagine materialism still has a coherent basis. If you want to stay within science then refute the findings. But if you now realize what is clearly obvious and now want to argue against ID from a "natural evil", a "bad design", or a lack of free will perspective, you enter into the realm of theodicy and have left the realm of empirical science, and for that line of argumantation I recommend Dr, Dembski's new book "The End Of Christianity". Excerpt here: Finding a Good God in an Evil World - William Dembski http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf William Dembski's New Book "The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World" Is available at Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/End-Christianity-Finding-Good-World/dp/0805427430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254433434&sr=1-1 Does God Exist? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1JbHRgNowU Thermodynamic Argument Against Evolution Part 1 of 3 - Thomas Kindell - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI1RiTOQ4dobornagain77
November 16, 2009
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mikev6: The question of how the designer operates is (IMHO) far more interesting and important than just identification, and will be a requirement if ID really wants to replace Darwinism as the leading explanation for biodiversity. Darwinism is the leading explanation for biodiversity among those who are biased toward it, away from the alternative, or who haven't given it much thought and believe whatever they hear on TV. As an explanation, Darwinism simply isn't one. It says, in essence, X evolved from Y via this mechanism, that, this other one, or another one, or some combination of them. We're certain enough to know that it happened, but unable to offer any specifics. (Sounds a bit like your criticism of ID.) It's a bit like a coroner who determines that a man was murdered, and says, "I'm sure he was murdered by being shot or stabbed in some part of his body, suffocated, or poisoned. Maybe all, maybe one, or maybe a combination." He claims to explain why there's a dead body on the table, but when pressed, can't actually say what did or didn't happen. Such a weak explanation doesn't need to be "replaced" by a better one.ScottAndrews
November 16, 2009
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Nak, They did not "show" changes, they hypothesized changes, and whats more they hypothesized "miraculous" convergent mutations that just so happened to find, "i.e. converge on", the same miraculous solution in different lineages. That you would insinuate this is rigorous evidence is pathetic... I was thinking more along the lines of you joining the real world of science, instead of darwinian story telling land, and actually violating the fitness test by 140 functional information bits: Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - "The Fitness Test" - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwWpRSYgOE Testing the Biological Fitness of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - 2008 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/darwin-at-drugstore List Of Degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria: http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp Math to calculate gain or loss in functional information: Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUeCgTN7pOo Entire video: http://www.seraphmedia.org.uk/ID.xml Or if that's to tough for you nak, maybe you can just show us a the evidence for the origination of a new species, not a trivial variation within kind: "Perhaps the most obvious challenge is to demonstrate evolution empirically. There are, arguably, some 2 to 10 million species on earth. The fossil record shows that most species survive somewhere between 3 and 5 million years. In that case, we ought to be seeing small but significant numbers of originations (new species) .. every decade." Keith Stewart Thomson, Professor of Biology and Dean of the Graduate School, Yale University (Nov. -Dec. American Scientist, 1997 pg. 516) Darwinism’s Last Stand? - Jonathan Wells Excerpt: Despite the hype from Darwin’s followers, the evidence for his theory is underwhelming, at best. Natural selection - like artificial selection - can produce minor changes within existing species. But in the 150 years since the publication of Darwin’s Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, no one has ever observed the origin of a new species by natural selection - much less the origin of new organs and body plans. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/06/junk_dna_darwinisms_last_stand.html#morebornagain77
November 16, 2009
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Mr BA^77, I think we'll have to wait for these species to have their genomes sequenced before we can take the discussion to that level. But as the article I referenced earlier showed FoxP2 changes in bats we could start there. Do you think these changes represented a loss of information?Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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And Nak, Do you mind showing us these hypothetical beneficial mutations?bornagain77
November 16, 2009
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Mr Joseph, Since we have several examples of gliding mammals, I'm surprised you think the accumulation of mutations would be difficult to show. In this case we have living intermediate forms, as compared to the case of birds from dinosaurs. What brought it into being? Variation What kept it? Selection.Nakashima
November 16, 2009
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Off topic song: Stairway to Heaven on Harp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzKCNDgn3Asbornagain77
November 16, 2009
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mikev6, It is not only that Darwinism is insufficient to explain the generation of complex functional information, reality itself is shown, by rigorous empirics, to be based on complex functional information. Or as Theism has postulated for 2 thousand years "In the beginning was The Word (Logos)". Thus not only is Darwinism insufficient to explain the complex functional information we find in life, as far as the foundational science of Quantum Physics is concerned, Darwinism has no right to even make any claim for non-teleological processes originating life in the first place. i.e. How can you build a house with no foundation on which to build it?bornagain77
November 16, 2009
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