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The bionic antinomy of Darwinism

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Do you remember when I said “when a thing is untrue, if we say it is true we get contradictions” (The Darwinism contradiction of repair systems)? Here I will deal with another contradiction of Darwinism: that we could name its “bionic antinomy”.

According to Wikipedia “Bionics (also known as biomimetics, bio-inspiration, biognosis, biomimicry, or bionical creativity engineering) is the application of biological methods and systems found in nature to the study and design of engineering systems and modern technology.” In fact, whether we analyze the history of technology, we find how often technical innovations and systems take inspiration from natural models. For some of the more recent examples of biomimetics see The 15 Coolest Cases of Biomimicry. This article synthetically defines bionics as “biologically inspired engineering”.

Bionics divides in sub-fields. For example, robotics, cybernetics and Artificial Intelligence try even to simulate the human body and mind. By the way these research fields are far from having achieved their long-term goal: to construct an artificial intelligent living being. These sub-fields of bionics, despite they are at the forefront of the technological advance, are those where the qualitative differences between artificial and natural systems are maximum. Matters of principle do exist that scientists never will succeed in such task of artificial creation of a true intelligent living being. Yes they will succeed to construct a robot simulating a human, but this robot will be neither really intelligent nor living. And less than less it will be a real “being” either. But this is another story…

The story herein is the strange phenomenon that happens when bionic and biological systems are put on the same table and compared. When a system “biologically inspired” to a certain biological system is considered in technology the terminology applied to it is engineering jargon (what else). When that biological system itself is considered in biology the terminology applied is purely Darwinian. For example, before the sonar of a submarine they say it is sophisticated engineering; before the sonar of a bat they say it is natural selection. This odd double standard always struck me.

What makes this double standard even more absurd is that, as noted above about robotics, the natural systems usually are more optimized and efficient than the equivalent artificial ones. For example, the bats have an echometer emitting 100 kHz supersonic pulses at a frequency of 30 times per second. These waves are reflected and distorted by the surrounding objects and their echoes are intercepted and elaborated by the bat to catch its prey and also just to get around. The signal processing of these echoes is so accurate to allow bats to fly, twisting, looping and zig-zagging through the air, into a completely dark room intersected by tens pianoforte strings without grazing them. The bat’s echometer has more accuracy, more efficiency, less power consumption and less size than any artificial sonar constructed by engineers. What … technological jewel! And many other wonderful examples could be considered in nature.

Let’s try to formalize somehow as a very logic antinomy the double standard situation described above.

(1) Intelligence is what creates and optimizes artificial systems by inserting complex specified information into them. Intelligence is the unique source of CSI.
(2) Bionic systems are fully created by intelligence. Say B the CSI of a bionic system, B > 0.
(3) A bionic system is less efficient than the similar natural system (say N its CSI). Then B < N.
(4) Natural systems are not created by intelligence, then N = 0. This is the fundamental axiom of Darwinian evolution: natural systems seem to be designed by intelligence but it is an illusion only.
(5) From #3 (B < N) and #4 (N = 0) we have B < 0.
(6) From #2 and #5 we have in the same time B > 0 and B < 0, i.e. an absurdum.

The above reasoning logically proves that the evolutionist double standard is a very antinomy. In all logic antinomies there is at least a premise that is untrue. I am sure the UD readers will have no difficulty to discover that the false premise is #4, indeed the Darwinian main hypothesis (all species arose by unintelligent natural processes).
There is a teaching for evolutionists here (as in all other contradictions of Darwinism), simply they cannot have it both ways: biological systems undesigned and their artificial clones designed. Since they cannot deny design in artificial clones, they should resign themselves to consider as designed their biological archetypes too.

Comments
So you have the audacity to claim increased functional complexity is no problem??? Did I miss the post where you showed a violation of the fitness test? Could you please repost that one minor detail??? I'm sure you just accidentally overlooked that one minor point of actually demonstrating a gain of functional complexity before claiming that natural processes can create all this life we see around us.. I hope you don't mind me being a stickler for such a trivial thing as actual empirical proof Nak,,,You know you probably have tons of other things you would rather do than to present evidence,,, such as belittle me hoping that will take the sting out of the fact you have not presented ANY evidence!bornagain77
November 18, 2009
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Mr Collin, Most ID-er’s don’t dispute that increases in complexity exist, Welcome to the wacky world of BA^77! He doesn't seem to agree with your vision of 'most ID-ers". I'm just answering his question. I actually haven't heard many ID-ers make a claim that certain fossils are as complex as a modern species. It is more important what paleobiologists think, ne? For most of us amateurs, it is hard to see the details that drive the analysis of the experts. The shape of small bone, a little tooth, we don't realize the significance these items can have. I'm not a great one for sports analogies like blocked a shot. With Mr BA^77 and his seemingly endless supply of quotes and videos, I think of it as popping these little balloons of disingenuousness one by one. BTW, how did you find your way onto UD?Nakashima
November 18, 2009
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I wonder what it would take to get a separate thread started for this. Anyone?Mung
November 18, 2009
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Nakashima
Would you agree to JavaScript for those reasons?
You provide some compelling reasons for using JavaScript. Anyone can create a web page on their hard drive and load it in a browser. Makes sense! Yes, I'd love to have us go through an exercise like this. I think it would be interesting, informative, and maybe even entertaining!Mung
November 18, 2009
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Nak, The problem is that no one observed how the change from fossil bats to modern bats took place. Most ID-er's don't dispute that increases in complexity exist, but dispute that Darwinian mechanisms have ever been shown to be the cause. I apologize if this is somewhat different than what I said before. Increases in complexity happen, and we've only seen it happen when an intelligent agent does it. Also, although ID does not depend on it, ID-ers will point out when very old fossils look just as complex or extremely similar to or MORE complex and adaptive than modern counterparts. If you refute the contention that fossil bats are just as complex as modern bats, then you have blocked a shot, but not scored a point of your own.Collin
November 18, 2009
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Mr BA^77, Fossil bats to modern bats.Nakashima
November 18, 2009
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Nak, Demonstrate a gain in functional complexity so as you can have a basis to make your claims, or else personally refute your dogmatic, and unflinching, materialism, then I will be willing to discuss the secondary issue Genetic Entropy found in the fossil record. This is science Nak, where rigor is demanded in all other branches of science save apparently for Darwinism, and just because you find the theistic implications unpleasant if you were to refute your dogmatic materialism, does not detract from the fact that you are in blatant disconnect with empirical evidence in so far as establishing a basis to work from.bornagain77
November 18, 2009
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Mr BA^77, Why the sudden demand for in the lab demonstrations? Fossil evidence was good enough for you when you were misquoting Wikipedia, now all of a sudden two fossil bats lacking modern echolocation function is a lack of proper sequence??Nakashima
November 18, 2009
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And Nak will you ever be forthright with an increase of functional complexity that we can actually see in the lab,,,or will we forever have to trust that your imagination has it all figured out and we shouldn't worry about such a thing as actual empirical evidence? Why are you ignoring this argument with easily refutable red herrings? i.e. your lack of proper fossil sequence to back your claims for bats? Why do you not address the primary question at hand? Where is the evidence Nak? Will you continue to dodge the question that clearly has primary relevance to the whole issue? Do you pretend this is not of direct importance? Where is the increase of functional complexity Nak? Why is it never witnessed Nak? or as that old lady use to say in the commercials "Where's The Beef"??!!??bornagain77
November 18, 2009
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Mr Mung, How about in Ruby and/or Ruby on Rails if we want a database back-end and web front-end? Thank you for your input. For the purposes I was thinking of, I was proposing javaScript because I think it is more important to give everyone (onlookers included) an app they could cut and paste into a web page and run immediately, albeit slowly. Everyone's browser can run JavaScript. Also the JavaScript syntax is pretty transparent, so non-programmers should be able to follow along. Would you agree to JavaScript for those reasons?Nakashima
November 18, 2009
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I suppose I was trying to be funny with the frogs fur, because presumably a frog-ish like animal became a mammal. (I'm using "frog" very loosely). And I meant really to say that increases in complexity and information content have not been shown. Listen, I really think that a lot of the controversy in origins debate has been needlessly generated by assuming if creationism is not true then evolution is, and if evolution is not true, then creationism is. I think that Intelligent Design is an honest attempt at compromise and it seems to me that ID-ers are more willing to look at the truth than some others. Can't we find evidence of design in nature? Is it really unscientific to try? Is it against science to follow the truth even if that truth implies a God? (the Big Bang was only reluctantly accepted by some because it seems to imply a creation).Collin
November 17, 2009
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BA77, I don't know if the ID movement will really benefit from you flooding UD with references to AIG and other YEC sites. Especially, since these sources are not even ID friendly. E.g., AIG recently dismissed Dr. Dembski's theodicy because from their point of view it is incompatible with the bible. Thus, I am afraid you can not have it both ways in the long run.osteonectin
November 17, 2009
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Mr BA^77, I'm sorry my reading comprehension is a little weak. Could you point out to me where on that Wiki page there is any support for your claim for full echolocation? Perhaps you are confusing it with the page for the other 52 million year old bat from the same formation, Onychonycteris finneyi. Of that bat, Wiki says Onychonycteris finneyi is the strongest evidence so far in the debate on whether bats developed echolocation before or after they evolved the ability to fly. O. finneyi had well-developed wings, and could clearly fly, but lacked the enlarged cochlea of all extant echolocating bats, closer resembling the old world fruit bats which do not echolocate.[1] This indicates that early bats could fly before they could echolocate. Or perhaps with this other Wiki page on another early bat, Palaeochiropteryx, Palaeochiropteryx is an extinct genus of bat. Palaeochiropteryx from Eocene Europe had wings formed from enlarged hands, even though their wings were less advanced than the modern bats. Their earbones show that they used a basic form of sound to locate their prey (most likely insects), although this sense was not as advanced as today's. Have bats gained functional complexity in 52 million years? A resounding yes!Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Mr Collin, i don't dismiss all his sources, but can only address one at a time. Thank you for the compliment. I hope you'll see in my raising tri-color vision that I'm willing to talk about the elephant. When you use a word like 'rare', you have to be willing to answer 'compared to what?'Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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About planet formation. I get the impression from space.com that astronomers are a lot more humble about planet formation than biologists (and others) are about evolution. It's as if they have some kind of psychological need for evolution to be true. For an ironically titled article: "Missing link found in planet formation" http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planet_formation_041209.htmlCollin
November 17, 2009
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Nakashima, You are right; nitpicking was the wrong word. And Bornagain77 seems to have conceded the point. AND I think you can be fairly witty at times. But you once again ignored the elephant in the room. Increases in complexity are as rare as frogs fur. Anyway, dismissing all of his sources seems like you sweeping unpleasant ideas under the rug. Some of his sources are of more worth than others, which is true of any bibliography anyway. By the way, I often get the impression that evolution is all sizzle and no steak.Collin
November 17, 2009
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Breaking news!! A friend just alerted me to how Noah was able to fit all the animals on the Ark - quantum superposition! After all the Ark was 300 qubits by 50 qubits by 30 qubits. Now that is high tech! :)Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Nak buddy don't you worry for me on Szostaks math, I'm loaded for bear on that. The main focal point is, as I have steadfastly maintained all day long and you have kept trying to switch, is for you to find a gain in functional complexity so that we might even see if evolution has even occurred!!! You are the one who wants to dodge the issue with BS... I have consistently and steadfastly maintained that you have ZERO ZILCH NADA examples to put forth for increased functional complexity,,, Do you seriously think you can dodge this by anything other than the concrete evidence demanded for evolution to be considered true in the first place? Sell your worthless banter elsewhere! Present evidence or at least have the guts to admit you have none!!! By the way Nak, as you are fully aware, echolocation is fully developed in the oldest bat fossil ever found, so quit trying to deceive others when you know better! 52.5 million year old fossil with full echolocation already present: Icaronycteris http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icaronycterisbornagain77
November 17, 2009
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Mr Collin, Sorry, I also take your point on debate etiquette, and would point out that I have stated clearly where I thought he had a good point about Rare Earth.Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Mr Collin, Thank you for expressing your opinion. I'm well aware that Mr BA^77 often throws up several points at the same time. Alas, it is not my style to write long posts. I'm not cutting and pasting from a large file of quotes and YouTube videos. All of my witty repartee is custom built, and often involves a good bit of fact checking to make sure I am confident of my position. That takes time. I'm interested in what you think is nit picking in our recent banter. If Kirk Durston had asserted that Szostak's work led to a limit of 140 fits and I said 'Not so, the number is 139!' that I agree would be nit picking. But in the case of Durston's misuse of Szostak's formula I completely disagreed with it, and presented why. Even Mr BA^77 seems to agree with my objections, as he immediately changed the subject from "Ha, come up with 140 Fits!" to "140, 42, whatever!"Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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Mr BA^77, If you'd like to talk about gains in functional complexity, let's talk about three color vision in primates.Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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that's "debater" not "debated"Collin
November 17, 2009
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Nakashima, Bornagain77 makes 10 persuasive points and I am almost convinced until you come and ... don't address them. Well, you do address one by nit-picking and get a tactical advantage, but you ignore the elephant in the room: No increase in complexity or information content is ever shown. It's like you can't even admit that he might have a smidgen of a point. A good debated admits it when the other side makes a good point; otherwise he looks unreasonable.Collin
November 17, 2009
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bornagain: Try any of these: http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html I particularly like the yeast studies, where genome duplication and gene divergence were seen. A Bacterial study also showed "Beneficial mutations are generally thought to be rare but, surprisingly, at least three mutations (12%) significantly improved fitness in maltose, a resource novel to the progenitor." Those should get you started, I suppose. By the way, you're list of antibiotic resistances seems horribly misguided. Many are the response to the antibiotic, not the mechanism of resistance. For example, the SOS response is activated by bacterial in the presence of penicillin so they don't divide without a cell wall and blow themselves apart. However, the resistance is B-lactamase, a enzyme that directly cleaves penicillin. This is NO loss of information, but a gain of a quite unique function.RobertC
November 17, 2009
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Mr Mung, As Mr Zachriel has said, it seems that the evidence (52 million year old bat fossils) is that bats evolved flight first. Echolocation evolved later. On the minimization issue, imagine two populations of primitive bats. In one population, the bats use the force of the air expelled from their lungs naturally during the downstroke of flapping to vocalize. The air would get pushed out anyway, so the additional cost of vocalizing is small. In the other population, the bats attempt to vocalize without synchronizing to their flapping. Some of their vocalizations still fall in with their natural breathing pattern and are low cost, but most of their vocalizations will require a separate breath from the breath rhythm of the flapping. This is an additional energy cost and disruptive to flight. Which population of bats eats more insects? The less tired ones, the ones that minimise energy costs. Eventually they dominate the population. Flight and good hearing predated echolocation - the specialized vocalizations came last. The assumption that the 'system' of all these things coming into existence (how?) as a finely tuned whole is unecessary, and the general pattern of scientific explanation is to prefer the explanation that makes the fewest assumptioins, and yet explains the data.Nakashima
November 17, 2009
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A little more music to help you find what you need Nak: Can't Find My Way Home http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT-SFgkVlnobornagain77
November 17, 2009
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"We don’t expect to see large amounts of change over relatively short spans of time." What shall we do with the data that indicates otherwise?Upright BiPed
November 17, 2009
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A little music to help you search Nak: Third day _ I Can feel It http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkfC1_x1t-8bornagain77
November 17, 2009
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Hey Nak I'm looking for an example of gain in functional complexity so we go through the Szostak equation in detail. Could you help me find some? I looked here and all the bacteria seem to have lost molecular functionality straight out the gate: List Of Degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria: http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp Antibiotic - Phenotype Providing Resistance Actinonin - Loss of enzyme activity Ampicillin - SOS response halting cell division Azithromycin - Loss of a regulatory protein Chloramphenicol - Reduced formation of a porin or a regulatory protein Ciprofloxacin - Loss of a porin or loss of a regulatory protein Erythromycin - Reduced affinity to 23S rRNA or loss of a regulatory protein Fluoroquinolones - Loss of affinity to gyrase Imioenem - Reduced formation of a porin Kanamycin - Reduced formation of a transport protein Nalidixic Acid - Loss or inactivation of a regulatory protein Rifampin - Loss of affinity to RNA polymerase Streptomycin -Reduced affinity to 16S rRNA or reduction of transport activity Tetracycline - Reduced formation of a porin or a regulatory protein Zittermicin A - Loss of proton motive force You can see my dilemma (or is that Darwin's Dilemma) So, no to be deterred, I looked here and though it seemed to gain function initially the functionality indeed came at a loss of functionality of a genome as well as failing to gain functionality over the parent strain once a normal environment was reinstituted with the removal of nylon: Nylon Degradation – Analysis of Genetic Entropy Excerpt: At the phenotypic level, the appearance of nylon degrading bacteria would seem to involve “evolution” of new enzymes and transport systems. However, further molecular analysis of the bacterial transformation reveals mutations resulting in degeneration of pre-existing systems. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v4/n1/beneficial-mutations-in-bacteria But dang it Nak,,,I really want to go through Szostaks equation with a fine tooth comb,,, so I persisted in looking,,,I brought the big evolutionary cannon,,,,drum roll,,, LENSKI"S E_COLI,,,splash boom bammmm!!!! Darndest thing though Nak,,,same thing as with Nylonase,,, Lenski’s e-coli – Detailed Analysis of Genetic Entropy Excerpt: Mutants of E. coli obtained after 20,000 generations at 37°C were less “fit” than the wild-type strain when cultivated at either 20°C or 42°C. Other E. coli mutants obtained after 20,000 generations in medium where glucose was their sole catabolite tended to lose the ability to catabolize other carbohydrates. Such a reduction can be beneficially selected only as long as the organism remains in that constant environment. Ultimately, the genetic effect of these mutations is a loss of a function useful for one type of environment as a trade-off for adaptation to a different environment. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v4/n1/beneficial-mutations-in-bacteria And to let you on a little secret Nak,,,I think Lenski could be heading for a Genetic Meltdown with his "cuddled" bacteria: New Work by Richard Lenski: - Michael Behe Excerpt: Interestingly, in this paper they report that the E. coli strain became a “mutator.” That means it lost at least some of its ability to repair its DNA, so mutations are accumulating now at a rate about seventy times faster than normal. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/new_work_by_richard_lenski.html So Nak being the staunch evolutionist you are,,,with such unflinching faith in the almighty power of mud to turn into people and trees, givin enough time and chance that is,,, I am sure that you can help me out on finding a gain in functional complexity so that you may set me in order on all these other evolutionary algorithms and Szotaks math and such stuff as you deem me mentally deficient in. You don't have to trouble yourself too much with hundreds of thousands of examples of gains in functional complexity, that I am sure you have ready access to,, just four or five off the top of your head should be enough to clear Szostak's math up. Ocean Sunset - Poem - Third Day - Music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zay_jHpEz0sbornagain77
November 17, 2009
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bornagain77: Please provide direct molecular evidence for evolution of functional complexity greater than what was present in parent species genome in parent bacteria”s native environment (140 Fits).
I'm confused on this point. Leaving aside what would reasonably meet your concept of 140 "fits," the Theory of Evolution posits a more-or-less incremental process over long periods of time. We don't expect to see large amounts of change over relatively short spans of time.Zachriel
November 17, 2009
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