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A Response to The Materialists’ “Possible Possum” Gambit

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Frequent commenter Popperian often employs the “Possible Possum Gambit.” Here’s how he does it:

Barry:  An effect cannot be brought about by a cause that is incapable of producing the effect.  A pile of bricks can “cause” some things if they are organized in a particular way, a house for instance.  But a pile of bricks is incapable of causing a mental image of an imaginary unicorn.  Why?  It should be obvious, but I will spell it out.  A pile of bricks is in a different ontological category from a mental image of an imaginary unicorn.  Therefore, we can rule out a priori “pile of bricks” as a possible cause of “imaginary unicorn.”

Similarly, the physical chemicals in the brain are incapable of producing the mental images in the mind.  There is a vast, unbridgeable ontological gulf between physical things and mental things.  Therefore, we can rule out, in principle and a priori “chemicals” as a cause of “thoughts.”

Popperian invariable yells “False!  You’ve committed inductivism.”  Before we show why Popperian is wrong, let’s get clear what he is talking about.  Wikipedia describes the issue as follows:

Generalizing about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that “all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white”, before the discovery of black swans)

So why is Popperian wrong?  Simple, it is not inductivism to assert that things in one ontological category cannot produce effects in another ontological category.  For example, the number “seven” cannot cause the smell of roses.  The color “orange” cannot cause “pi to fifteen digits.”

And if Popperian were to yell, “False! You are committing inductivism,” we would think he is a loon.  This is not the same thing as the black swan error, because we are not inferring a universal principal based upon necessarily limited empirical observations.  Instead, our conclusion is grounded in a more fundamental metaphysical foundation:  logical possibility (or impossibility as the case may be).  In no coherent universe does “seven” cause “smell of roses.”  Therefore, this, like all logically impossible statements, can be ruled out on an a priori basis.

But, Popperian, continues, you don’t know that chemicals cannot cause thoughts.  It’s possible that they do.  This is where Popperian gets “Possible Possum” syndrome.  You remember Possible Possum from the old Deputy Dawg cartoons right?  His catch phrase was “It’s poss-i-bool; it’s poss-i-bool.”  See here.

Well Popperian, that’s not how we do science or metaphysics.  If I say we can rule out a priori “pile of bricks” as a possible cause of “imaginary unicorn” because it is logically impossible for a pile of bricks to cause an imaginary unicorn, it is absurd to stamp your foot and say “You’ve committed the error of inductivism, because it’s poss-i-bool; it’s poss-i-bool!”

Bare, unsupported claims of possibility will not defeat my a priori claim.  You are the one asserting possibility, so it is your burden to demonstrate possibility by outlining a plausible mechanism for how a pile of bricks could cause an imaginary unicorn.  And if you can’t even begin to do so, my claim is unrefuted.

The same goes with my claim that we can exclude “chemicals” on an a priori basis as being a cause of “mental images.”  Again, the bare assertion “it’s poss-i-bool; it’s poss-i-bool” gets you nowhere.  If you say it’s possible, then show us; until then my claim stands unrefuted.

Comments
Zach: The brain mirrors sensory reality, and by doing so, the organism can act with purpose.
I suppose you mean part of the organism can act with purpose? Part of the brain, I suppose. Some physical processes in neural networks located in the brain. Why do you insist on crediting purely physical processes with teleology?
Rosenberg: This [purpose] is harmless, perhaps even helpful—a convenient metaphor. (…) Such expressions, which credit purely physical processes with volition, intention, and foresight, not to mention intelligence and wisdom, can always be cashed in for descriptions that deprive nature of these capacities. It’s obvious why most people have chosen the interpretative culture of the humanities, the path of embroidering on illusion, even after science hit its stride. To begin with, there was selection for the theory-of-mind ability, which carried along conscious thoughts that seem to be about the conspiracies behind people’s behavior. The ability still works, up to limits that social and behavioral science has discovered. Like any by-product of a local adaptation, interpreting people’s behavior in terms of motives is hard to shake, even when the brain’s predictions go wrong, sometimes catastrophically wrong. We won’t give up relying on interpretation until long after the ability that carries it along has ceased to be adaptive. Why? Because interpreting other people’s lives by figuring out what their thoughts might be about is fun, entertaining, and sometimes even great art. That’s how interpretation fools us into thinking it’s doing the work instead of the neural circuits. It’s a lot harder to do science than it is to spin out stories about why people do things in terms of their possible or plausible thoughts about stuff. Experimental science and abstract mathematical theorizing are difficult—boring drudgery for most people. But both are required to produce a neuroscientific explanation of human behavior. So, even many of us who endorse scientism will continue to read and watch and listen to the histories, biographies, memories, novels, films, plays, and broadcasts that employ the illusory approach of finding meaning and purpose in human affairs. It’s easier to follow and much more entertaining than science because it comes packaged as stories, and science never does. Fortunately for us, being scientistic doesn’t require we become scientists. It’s obvious why most people have chosen the interpretative culture of the humanities, the path of embroidering on illusion, even after science hit its stride. To begin with, there was selection for the theory-of-mind ability, which carried along conscious thoughts that seem to be about the conspiracies behind people’s behavior. The ability still works, up to limits that social and behavioral science has discovered. Like any by-product of a local adaptation, interpreting people’s behavior in terms of motives is hard to shake, even when the brain’s predictions go wrong, sometimes catastrophically wrong. We won’t give up relying on interpretation until long after the ability that carries it along has ceased to be adaptive. Why? Because interpreting other people’s lives by figuring out what their thoughts might be about is fun, entertaining, and sometimes even great art. That’s how interpretation fools us into thinking it’s doing the work instead of the neural circuits. It’s a lot harder to do science than it is to spin out stories about why people do things in terms of their possible or plausible thoughts about stuff. Experimental science and abstract mathematical theorizing are difficult—boring drudgery for most people. But both are required to produce a neuroscientific explanation of human behavior. So, even many of us who endorse scientism will continue to read and watch and listen to the histories, biographies, memories, novels, films, plays, and broadcasts that employ the illusory approach of finding meaning and purpose in human affairs. It’s easier to follow and much more entertaining than science because it comes packaged as stories, and science never does. Fortunately for us, being scientistic doesn’t require we become scientists. Now we know what’s wrong with stories. We know how we got saddled with a love of them. And alas, we also know why it’s so difficult for science to displace stories. [Rosenberg]
Box
Seversky:
The computer you typed that into is evidence to the contrary.
That is your opinion. We wouldn't exist in a materialistic world which means computers wouldn't exist. Please model materialistic processes producing a biological replicator. Without that no computers, no technology, no modeling. Please give us some predictions of materialism. Virgil Cain
Virgil Cain @ 73
Materialism lacks testability. It lacks models. It lacks support.
The computer you typed that into is evidence to the contrary. All of our current scientific and technological achievements are based on a materialistic assumption. It has been - and is still being - tested and has passed all such, so far. Our most successful current scientific theories, such as relativity and quantum mechanics and evolution, are accounts of aspects of the material world. It is as well-supported as anything can be. Seversky
Barry: "Similarly, the physical chemicals in the brain are incapable of producing the mental images in the mind." That may be so but the organization of the chemicals is still a precondition for the universe of mind. A photograph of a house is sort of the same relationship as an actual house and a mental image of a house. The photograph is material, and just as well are mental images material, because the existence of them is fact. Love etc. are categorically different from mental objects, because love belongs to the category of agency of a decision. Even I can have a mental image of a leprechaun in mind, to have a mental image of a loving leprechaun in mind, I can make him do things in my mind, but I cannot make an image of the love. mohammadnursyamsu
Zachriel is stuck on mundane "purpose". It is obviously clueless to the higher purpose that ID and Creation say exists. Materialism lacks testability. It lacks models. It lacks support. Virgil Cain
Box: However, your claim that the brain mirrors sensory reality with the purpose in mind “to analyze the past and model the future” is contentious. Purpose is one of those words you overload with meaning. Let's simplify it. The brain mirrors sensory reality, and by doing so, the organism can act with purpose. Box: Can you provide a quote or two? We already quoted Hume. "Reason Is and Ought Only to Be the Slave of the Passions." Box: Argument free assertion. We'll restate. The claim was that materialism was inherently inconsistent, but you have repeatedly failed to justify that claim. You find it implausible, which an entirely different claim. As for the claim that materialism is consistent, it is a closed system. You might find the philosophy limited and incomplete, but again, that is an entirely different claim. Box: "The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives. " What is happening is that there is an equivocation on the word purpose (and with free will). If someone always chooses chocolate over vanilla*, and we show that this is due to some genetic facet in their makeup, that doesn't mean they don't act with purpose in the normal sense of the word when they choose chocolate. * Substitute ice cream or a poke in the eye with a hot poker as the choices to make clear the truth of the statement. Given the choice, people choose. That's what we mean by free will, and the act of choosing is with purpose. Zachriel
A.Rosenberg on “purpose” being a mere metaphor:
This [purpose] is harmless, perhaps even helpful—a convenient metaphor. (…) Such expressions, which credit purely physical processes with volition, intention, and foresight, not to mention intelligence and wisdom, can always be cashed in for descriptions that deprive nature of these capacities. In the rest of this book, hold me to the promise that any talk about purposes is harmless metaphor. Intentions, volitions, designs, solutions, or any other kinds of actions in nature—implied or expressed—must always be cashed in for the mindless process Darwin discovered.
A.Rosenberg: humans are devoid of purposes.
Some of the conclusions to which science commits us sound so bizarre that many people, including scientists and philosophers, have gone to great lengths to avoid them, deny them, or search for a way of taking the sting out of them. Among the seemingly unquestionable truths science makes us deny is the idea that we have any purposes at all, that we ever make plans—for today, tomorrow, or next year. The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives. It is the source of at least two other profound myths: that we have purposes that give our actions and lives meaning and that there is a person “in there” steering the body, so to speak. Farewell to the purpose-driven life. Whatever is in our brain driving our lives from cradle to grave, it is not purposes. But it does produce the powerful illusion of purposes, just like all the other purposeless adaptations in the biological realm.
Box
Zach: Mirroring sensory reality is a function of the brain. That’s hardly contentious.
However, your claim that the brain mirrors sensory reality with the purpose in mind “to analyze the past and model the future” is contentious.
Zach:
Box: All the brain is and does is without purpose — it all simply evolved with no purpose or goal in mind.
According to materialism, the brained organism acts with purpose, even if it sprang from a natural process undirected by a purposeful agent.
Can you provide a quote or two? Meanwhile here is atheist philosopher Rosenberg:
It’s hard to see how there could be purposes or teleology in a physical universe governed by the second law. Let’s be absolutely clear: no teleology, no purposes, goals, or ends. For that matter, no free-floating thoughts carrying around designs. Scientism cannot emphasize this self-denying ordinance of physics more strongly. So, the answer to the persistent question, What is the purpose of the universe? is quite simply: There is none. It turns out that Darwin banished real purposes from the realm of the living as thoroughly as Newton drove it out of physical reality. The banishment of purpose from the universe as a whole also provides for the banishment of purposes that are supposed to make sense of human and other biological activities. When physics disposed of purposes, it did so for biology as well. It is the causal completeness of physics that purges purpose from all living things and their lives. It does so by deploying the process that Darwin discovered. [Rosenberg]
Zach: There is no contradiction in this position, even if you don’t find it persuasive.
Argument free assertion. If there is no contradiction here, then contradictions don't exist. It's like saying that freedom emerges from deterministic processes. Or like saying that life emerges from dead matter. Or like saying that everything emerges from nothing. Wait a minute ... that stuff is what materialists are saying isn't it? Box
Box: The brain and its functions are evolved by purposeless evolutionary processes. Or, according to a materialist, some other natural process. Box: Now you are telling me that the brain has a purpose for “mirroring sensory reality”. Mirroring sensory reality is a function of the brain. That's hardly contentious. Box: All the brain is and does is without purpose — it all simply evolved with no purpose or goal in mind. According to materialism, the brained organism acts with purpose, even if it sprang from a natural process undirected by a purposeful agent. There is no contradiction in this position, even if you don't find it persuasive. Zachriel
Zach: Physicalists assert that mind is a function of the brain, that it mirrors sensory reality in order to analyze the past and model the future.
And that's were the circle closes and we are back at assumptions and assertions. The brain and its functions are evolved by purposeless evolutionary processes. Now you are telling me that the brain has a purpose for "mirroring sensory reality". The goal that the brain has in mind is "to analyze the past and model the future"... Well what can I say? NOT SO according to materialistic evolution. All the brain is and does is without purpose — it all simply evolved with no purpose or goal in mind. Box
Box: Under materialistic evolutionism, an organism doesn’t act with a purpose, a goal — a future state — in mind. If you are referring to organisms without minds, then your claim is tautological. However, organisms with minds do act with a goal in mind. Physicalists assert that mind is a function of the brain, that it mirrors sensory reality in order to analyze the past and model the future. Box: Either an action stems from a purpose or ‘known purposeless evolutionary processes’. You're conflating the proximate cause with the ultimate cause. The materialist still points to the brain as the source of mind whether or not she thinks the brain evolved or the stork brings them. Box: In short: purpose cannot emerge from purposelessness. Yes, that's your claim, and your position. Zachriel
When mRNA is translated into polypeptide chains, it does not make any sense to say that "the organism acts with purpose". Simply because the "organism" does not produce proteins with a purpose in mind. The same goes for all actions of an organism. Under materialistic evolutionism, an organism doesn't act with a purpose, a goal — a future state — in mind. Sure we can still use "purpose" as a metaphor. However "metaphorical purpose" is not at issue here — we are talking about the real thing.
Zach:
Box: Unless … purpose magically *emerges*.
It’s not magic, but posited to be the result of known processes.
Either an action stems from a purpose or 'known purposeless evolutionary processes'. You cannot have both. When the actions of an organism are still the result of 'known purposeless evolutionary processes' — despite emergence of whatever — then there is no purpose. In short: purpose cannot emerge from purposelessness . Box
Box: There is ‘nobody home’ in the robot. Yet it acts purposefully. Box: I suggest that neither ‘purposeless unguided evolutionary processes’ nor ‘a purposeless non-teleological universe’ are likely candidates for the job. Perhaps, but the original contention was that materialism was inherently incoherent. Box: So “purposeful” behavior isn’t grounded by the organism, but by purposeless evolutionary processes. In which case “purposeful behavior” is a mere metaphor and eliminable. It's grounded by the purposeless evolutionary process, which provides an explanation as to why and how purposeful organisms arose. However, it isn't necessary to have a valid scientific explanation to make a self-consistent claim of materialism. You can then say it isn't scientifically grounded, but that's true of non-materialist philosophies that also lack scientific explanations. Box: Unless … purpose magically *emerges*. It's not magic, but posited to be the result of known processes. That you reject this is a scientific question, not a philosophical one. Zachriel
Zach: By analogy, a robot can act with purpose, (...)
There is 'nobody home' in the robot. Everyone understands that the robot is merely instrumental to the purpose of its intelligent designer.
Zach: and while a robot is artificial, that doesn’t mean a natural arrangement of parts can’t also show purpose.
External to the robot there is a purposeful intelligent designer. Obviously purpose doesn't stem from the robot and can therefor not be grounded by the robot. Similarly purpose isn't grounded by the organism, but must be grounded by something external to it. I suggest that neither 'purposeless unguided evolutionary processes' nor 'a purposeless non-teleological universe' are likely candidates for the job.
Zach: Assuming the materialist accepts evolution, then yes; the purposeful behavior of the organism is a product of the evolutionary process.
So "purposeful" behavior isn't grounded by the organism, but by purposeless evolutionary processes. In which case "purposeful behavior" is a mere metaphor and eliminable. Unless ... purpose magically *emerges*. Box
Box: Teleology in biology must be regarded as metaphorical and as eliminable. No. Even if the purposefulness can be reduced (and not all materialists believe everything can be so reduced) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's an emergent quality of organisms. By analogy, a robot can act with purpose, and while a robot is artificial, that doesn't mean a natural arrangement of parts can't also show purpose. That's a matter of empirical investigation, not philosophy. Box: The actions and features of an organism stem from unguided purposeless non-teleological evolutionary processes Assuming the materialist accepts evolution, then yes; the purposeful behavior of the organism is a product of the evolutionary process. Zachriel
Zach: Those materialists who accept evolution see it as a process undirected by a purposeful agent. However, organisms act with purpose.
This is (again) trollish behavior by Zach. We have been over this again and again. He simply refuses to address the point. Materialistic evolution does not posit an organism as a causal agent. Teleology in biology must be regarded as metaphorical and as eliminable. The actions and features of an organism stem from unguided purposeless non-teleological evolutionary processes — NOT from the teleological drive of the "organism" — whatever an "organism" is under materialism. Box
Box: Materialism insists that the universe came into existence without purpose. Has no purpose. Someone can be a materialist and believe in a universe with no beginning. Box: Materialism insists that the universe and everything in it are either physical or supervene on the physical and is devoid of purpose. No. Some materialists see purpose in some things in the universe, but the purpose is parochial. Box: Materialism insists that natural law is without purpose. Okay. Box: Materialistic evolutionism insists that evolutionary processes are unguided and without purpose. Those materialists who accept evolution see it as a process undirected by a purposeful agent. However, organisms act with purpose. Box: They invoke upon *poof* magic. Purpose *emerged*. It's not magic, but posited to be a consequence of organic activity, such as of the brain. Box: Yeah plausible. Sure. Right. You may not find it convincing, but the question was not whether it was plausible, but self-consistent. Zachriel
Zach: It’s relevant if purpose is an emergent property.
Materialism insists that the universe came into existence without purpose. Materialism insists that the universe and everything in it are either physical or supervene on the physical and is devoid of purpose. Materialism insists that natural law is without purpose. Materialistic evolutionism insists that evolutionary processes are unguided and without purpose. Why this emphasis on "no purpose"? Because they cannot allow a divine foot in the door. Then someone points out to the materialists that reason cannot exist without purpose — that science itself cannot exist without purpose (aiming for truth). So, confronted with the undeniable need for purpose, what do they — the materialists — do? They invoke upon *poof* magic. Purpose *emerged*. Purpose emerged in a purposeless universe, which consists of purposeless laws and blind particles in motion, caught up in a purposeless evolutionary process. Yeah plausible. Sure. Right. Box
Box: You are talking about emergence. Again, it’s irrelevant to teleology. It's relevant if purpose is an emergent property. Box: That doesn’t change the fact that the physical structure on which some mental property supervenes is still produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. Or by some other unpurposed process. So? is right. There's nothing inconsistent about the position, even if you don't personally find it convincing. Zachriel
Zach: A typical response is that desire is a brain state.
You are talking about emergence. Again, it's irrelevant to teleology.
Zach: Emergent materialists believe that some things can[not] be reduced, but supervene on the physical.
So? That doesn't change the fact that the physical structure on which some mental property supervenes is still produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. It's irrelevant that some alleged emergent mental property — fully intertwined with a lower physical level — is along for the ride, so to speak. Box
Barry Arrington: Which one is the lie Z? Answered in the other thread. https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/remedial-logic-for-materialists/#comment-576859 Zachriel
Box: You start to talk incoherently, “desire” is not even a physicalistic term. That is incorrect. It's one of the primary questions that distinguishes various flavors of physicalism. A typical response is that desire is a brain state. Box: I’m saying that, according to materialism, birds didn’t grow wings because they had a desire to fly. Whether birds "grew wings" is a scientific question, not a philosophical one. A physicalist may think birds naturally spring from the mud. Box: According the materialistic evolutionist all features and actions of an organism are bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. Emergent materialists believe that some things can be reduced, but supervene on the physical. We pointed this out already. Box: Irrelevant. It's relevant because you directly stated that materialism entails evolution. It does not. Zachriel
Zach:
Box: Only if you embrace holism and posit “organism” as a cause for the teleological “desire to feed”.
A materialist (physicalist) would say there is a mechanism that induces desire within the organism.
You start to talk incoherently, "desire" is not even a physicalistic term.
Zach:
Box: However, according to materialism, the desire to feed does not stem from the organism, but is bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes.
You’re confusing the proximate cause and the ultimate cause.
That is rich coming from you. I'm saying that, according to materialism, birds didn't grow wings because they had a desire to fly. According the materialistic evolutionist all features and actions of an organism are bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes.
Zach: Someone might reject evolution, still be a materialist, and nonetheless think that there is a natural mechanism.
Irrelevant.
Zach: Most materialists probably envision a bottom-up process, but some are emergent materialists and don’t think everything can be reduced in that manner.
Emergence also doesn't ground teleology. // Obviously, Zach is not the only one who speaks incoherently about purpose:
Daniel Dennett: “There is something alien and vaguely repellent about this quasi agency we discover at this level – all that purposive hustle and bustle, and yet ‘there is nobody home’”
Daniel, what grounds purpose if there is nobody home? Who's purpose are we talking about? Box
Zachriel at comment 52 in prior thread:
Q. Are you in favor of chopping up little babies and selling the pieces like meat? A. No.
Zachriel at comment 62 in same thread:
Q. Are you in favor of allowing Planned Parenthood to chop up little unborn babies and distribute their pieces like meat as part of their fetal tissue donation program? A. When a woman decides on a legal abortion, donating the tissue for medicine is appropriate.
Which one is the lie Z? They can't both be true. Barry Arrington
You have no empirical evidence for your grand claims. bornagain77
bFast: eusocial insects are pretty much practicing familial altruism, or more accurately symbiosis, wouldn’t you say? The basics of eusocial behavior are familial, but sometimes eusocial insects will help other families, while sometimes individual insects in a colony will defy altruism. bFast: or more accurately symbiosis, It's not symbiosis. Symbiosis would be ants raising aphids. bFast: And we know, of course, that the benefits outweigh the detriments because evolution tells us so. It's something that can be observed, and entails specific empirical predictions. bFast: Altruism, though not easily practiced by the selfish, provides very strong emotional rewards. Sure. In a more primitive environment, humans physically close one another are likely to be related to one another. Furthermore, humans have a suite of abilities to distinguish individuals from among a group so as to reward cooperation and punish cheaters. Box: Only if you embrace holism and posit “organism” as a cause for the teleological “desire to feed”. A materialist (physicalist) would say there is a mechanism that induces desire within the organism. Box: However, according to materialism, the desire to feed does not stem from the organism, but is bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. You're confusing the proximate cause and the ultimate cause. Someone might reject evolution, still be a materialist, and nonetheless think that there is a natural mechanism. Most materialists probably envision a bottom-up process, but some are emergent materialists and don't think everything can be reduced in that manner. Box: Why do you say that? "Reason is a slave to the passions," a mere tool. Without passion, there is no action. Zachriel
bornagain77: So you admit that you have no real time empirical evidence for your grandiose claims for neo-Darwinian evolution There is plenty of empirical evidence for neo-darwinian mechanisms. Many such experiments are standard in biological training, such as replicating the Lederbergs' Experiment. bornagain77: and that ‘evolution is quite limited’. Because evolution works by modifying already existing structures, it will only explore a tiny subset of possible forms. Zachriel
Zach:
Box: You keep telling me that materialism assumes purpose
No. Most forms of physicalism are consistent with purpose, such as the desire of an organism to feed.
Only if you embrace holism and posit “organism” as a cause for the teleological “desire to feed”. However, according to materialism, the desire to feed does not stem from the organism, but is bottom-up produced by purposeless unguided blind evolutionary processes. Therefor — under materialism — ‘the desire to feed’ is a mere metaphor — and quite misleading — and does not ground teleology.
Zach:
Box: What I’m interested in is grounding purpose / teleology by materialism.
Desire isn’t grounded in your notions of logic or philosophy.
Why do you say that? You say the strangest things ... Box
Zachriel, eusocial insects are pretty much practicing familial altruism, or more accurately symbiosis, wouldn't you say? "as long as the benefits outweigh the detriments." And we know, of course, that the benefits outweigh the detriments because evolution tells us so. There remains a huge difference between a phenomenon existing, and a phenomenon being a powerful drive. Altruism, though not easily practiced by the selfish, provides very strong emotional rewards. Those who seek fulfillment and meaning without it almost always fail to find what they seek, those who seek meaning and fulfillment through it are often very satisfied, even if they have little earthy wealth to show for it. bFast
So you admit that you have no real time empirical evidence for your grandiose claims for neo-Darwinian evolution and that 'evolution is quite limited'. Thanks. I'll remember that the next time you try to extrapolate trivial adaptations (i.e. micro-evolution) as proof for neo-Darwinism's grand claims (i.e. macro-evolution). bornagain77
bFast: Altruistic meaning is the antithesis of Darwinian evolution. That is incorrect. Altruism can be a powerful evolutionary force. A common example is eusocial insects. bFast: Familial altruism makes some sense, but interspecies altruism sufficiently strong as to remove a person’s genes from the pool is by no means unheard of. Not all aspects of altruism need be beneficial to reproduction for it to persist in a population, as long as the benefits outweigh the detriments. Box: You keep telling me that materialism assumes purpose No. Most forms of physicalism are consistent with purpose, such as the desire of an organism to feed. Box: What I’m interested in is grounding purpose / teleology by materialism. Desire isn't grounded in your notions of logic or philosophy. bornagain77: For instance, when pressed for evidence for your neo-Darwinian claims that unguided material processes can produce all the unfathomed integrated complexity we see in life on earth, you misrepresented Lenski’s e-coli adaption of citrate to an oxygenic environment as a prime example of the supposed ‘unlimited’ power of Darwinian processes to build up such unfathomed integrated complexity we see in life. We didn't use the terms "neo-darwinian", "prime example", or "unlimited". Indeed, evolution is quite limited. StephenB: Translation: I will not answer your question. We did answer the question, even providing a link to that answer. Zachriel
Barry Arrington: "My question to you: When the Nucatola says “they want to break even,” what are they selling that they want to break even on? Zach: "Our answer will be found on the other thread." Translation: I will not answer your question. StephenB
Zach states: "Actually, we object to misrepresentation or unsupported claims." Which is yet another lie on your part since you continually misrepresent the exceeding trivial results witnessed for unguided material processes to make completely unsupported, and grandiose, claims for neo-Darwinian evolution. You sir, (at least on UD), are the reigning king of misrepresentation and unsupported claims. For instance, when pressed for evidence for your neo-Darwinian claims that unguided material processes can produce all the unfathomed integrated complexity we see in life on earth, you misrepresented Lenski's e-coli adaption of citrate to an oxygenic environment as a prime example of the supposed 'unlimited' power of Darwinian processes to build up such unfathomed integrated complexity we see in life. As if that trivial adaptation goes even one inch towards explaining how the human brain, which is far more complex than the entire internet combined, can possibly be put together by unguided material processes. Such trivial examples as citrate adaptation and the grandiose claims you make against those trivial examples should be the very definition of unsupported claims we see in dictionaries. notes:
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html The Half-Truths of Materialist Evolution - DONALD DeMARCO - 02/06/2015 Excerpt: but I would like to direct attention to the unsupportable notion that the human brain, to focus on a single phenomenon, could possibly have evolved by sheer chance. One of the great stumbling blocks for Darwin and other chance evolutionists is explaining how a multitude of factors simultaneously coalesce to form a unified, functioning system. The human brain could not have evolved as a result of the addition of one factor at a time. Its unity and phantasmagorical complexity defies any explanation that relies on pure chance. It would be an underestimation of the first magnitude to say that today’s neurophysiologists know more about the structure and workings of the brain than did Darwin and his associates. Scientists in the field of brain research now inform us that a single human brain contains more molecular-scale switches than all the computers, routers and Internet connections on the entire planet! According to Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology at the Stanford University School of Medicine, the brain’s complexity is staggering, beyond anything his team of researchers had ever imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief. In the cerebral cortex alone, each neuron has between 1,000 to 10,000 synapses that result, roughly, in a total of 125 trillion synapses, which is about how many stars fill 1,500 Milky Way galaxies! A single synapse may contain 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A synapse, simply stated, is the place where a nerve impulse passes from one nerve cell to another. Phantasmagorical as this level of unified complexity is, it places us merely at the doorway of the brain’s even deeper mind-boggling organization. Glial cells in the brain assist in neuron speed. These cells outnumber neurons 10 times over, with 860 billion cells. All of this activity is monitored by microglia cells that not only clean up damaged cells but also prune dendrites, forming part of the learning process. The cortex alone contains 100,000 miles of myelin-covered, insulated nerve fibers. The process of mapping the brain would indeed be time-consuming. It would entail identifying every synaptic neuron. If it took a mere second to identify each neuron, it would require four billion years to complete the project. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-half-truths-of-materialist-evolution/ "Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 8, 2012 Excerpt: Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html Component placement optimization in the brain – 1994 As he comments [106], “To current limits of accuracy … the actual placement appears to be the best of all possible layouts; this constitutes strong evidence of perfect optimization.,, among about 40,000,000 alternative layout orderings, the actual ganglion placement in fact requires the least total connection length. http://www.jneurosci.org/content/14/4/2418.abstract The Puzzling Role Of Biophotons In The Brain - Dec. 17, 2010 Excerpt: In recent years, a growing body of evidence shows that photons play an important role in the basic functioning of cells. Most of this evidence comes from turning the lights off and counting the number of photons that cells produce. It turns out, much to many people’s surprise, that many cells, perhaps even most, emit light as they work. In fact, it looks very much as if many cells use light to communicate. There’s certainly evidence that bacteria, plants and even kidney cells communicate in this way. Various groups have even shown that rats brains are literally alight thanks to the photons produced by neurons as they work.,,, ,,, earlier this year, one group showed that spinal neurons in rats can actually conduct light. ,, Rahnama and co point out that neurons contain many light sensitive molecules, such as porphyrin rings, flavinic, pyridinic rings, lipid chromophores and aromatic amino acids. In particular, mitochondria, the machines inside cells which produce energy, contain several prominent chromophores. The presence of light sensitive molecules makes it hard to imagine how they might not be not influenced by biophotons.,,, They go on to suggest that the light channelled by microtubules can help to co-ordinate activities in different parts of the brain. It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,, (So) It’s a big jump to assume that photons do this job. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/422069/the-puzzling-role-of-biophotons-in-the-brain/ ,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, Beyond its functional relevance, the zero time lag synchrony among such distant neuronal ensembles must be established by mechanisms that are able to compensate for the delays involved in the neuronal communication. Latencies in conducting nerve impulses down axonal processes can amount to delays of several tens of milliseconds between the generation of a spike in a presynaptic cell and the elicitation of a postsynaptic potential (16). The question is how, despite such temporal delays, the reciprocal interactions between two brain regions can lead to the associated neural populations to fire in unison (i.e. zero time lag).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/
bornagain77
Zach: Most views of materialism (physicalism) allow for purpose in organisms. In humans, purpose is considered a property of the brain.
Somewhere in a purposeless universe, a amalgamate of matter caught up in a purposeless process — blind unguided purposeless evolution — becomes purposeful? Tell me, what is this purpose in materialistic terms? How does materialism ground it? You keep telling me that materialism assumes purpose, or that things are simply considered to have purpose. We all know that. What I'm interested in is grounding purpose / teleology by materialism. Box
Zachriel (34), "Altruism is not the only way to find meaning." No its not. It is, however, the most potent. The call to altruism is sufficiently strong that it allows people to suicide to attain it. Altruistic meaning is the antithesis of Darwinian evolution. Familial altruism makes some sense, but interspecies altruism sufficiently strong as to remove a person's genes from the pool is by no means unheard of. From a Darwinian perspective, altruism should not even be on the list of sources of meaning -- with the possible exception of familial altruism. bFast
Goodusername: Ingest certain chemicals that affect the physical chemicals of the brain and you’ll see lots unicorns and not just black swans but purple and yellow ones. If you are referring to the class of chemicals I think you are, this is what might happen in recreational or an otherwise irresponsible choice of setting and mindset. At any rate what the experiencer is "seeing" is in the imagination and known to them to be the imagination in these cases. In the correct set and setting what the experiencer may finally be seeing are realms leading to God and known not to be figments of the imagination. This is the purpose for these substances in the first place which brings us back around to the teleological connection. groovamos
Box: You keep offering arguments against materialism. Most views of materialism (physicalism) allow for purpose in organisms. In humans, purpose is considered a property of the brain. Why do you find this problematic? Zachriel
Zach: But a child with a bat has a purpose. So there!
We are in perfect agreement. Way to go Zach! You keep offering arguments against materialism. It makes sense since, as you state in #28, you are not a materialist. Box
Box: So matter, energy and evolution are all without teleology (purpose). But a child with a baseball bat has a purpose. So there! Zachriel
Evolution Is Purposeless and Unguided—Deal with It! Many prominent scientists get it right when they say that evolution is purposeless and unguided. The same is true for plate tectonics, supernovas, radioactive decay, and the weather. If you have a problem with this, read Jerry Coyne at What’s the problem with unguided evolution? and take it up with him. I'm tired of trying to convince theists and accommodationists of something that's as plain as the nose on your face.
Not to beat a dead horse (I think it’s still alive), but I vehemently oppose those evolutionists and accommodationists who won’t affirm that evolution is unguided and purposeless (in the sense of not being directed by a higher intelligence or teleological force). For to the best of our knowledge evolution, like all natural processes, is purposeless and unguided. After all, scientists have no problem saying that the melting of glaciers, the movement of tectonic plates, or the decay of atoms are processes that are unguided and purposeless.
[Larry Moran]
1. Okay! So matter, energy and evolution are all without teleology (purpose). Great! 2. Reason however cannot exist without teleology — e.g. science aims at truth. 3. Materialism cannot ground reason (1&2). 4. Reason exists! Materialism is false Box
Barry Arrington: My question to you: When the Nucatola says “they want to break even,” what are they selling that they want to break even on? Our answer will be found on the other thread. https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/remedial-logic-for-materialists/#comment-576797 Zachriel
Zachriel, In the other thread you posted this quote:
“I think for affiliates, at the end of the day, they’re a nonprofit, they just don’t want to — they want to break even. And if they can do a little better than break even, and do so in a way that seems reasonable, they’re happy to do that,” Nucatola says. But immediately after this statement, Nucatola goes on to say: “Really their bottom line is, they want to break even. Every penny they save is just pennies they give to another patient. To provide a service the patient wouldn’t get.” Planned Parenthood told us that she may have been referring to more general operations of the clinics. http://www.factcheck.org/2015/.....ood-video/
My question to you: When the Nucatola says "they want to break even," what are they selling that they want to break even on? Barry Arrington
bornagain77: the fact is that you defend materialism and/or naturalism tooth and nail day in and day out. Actually, we object to misrepresentation or unsupported claims. Zachriel
bFast: It seems clear to those who analyse our sense of meaning scientifically, that the best way to develop a sense of meaning is through altruism. Altruism is not the only way to find meaning. People find meaning in many different facets of their lives, often through their love of others, but also through love of the creative process, or love of the familiar. Zachriel
You are not a ‘we’ and the fact is that you defend materialism and/or naturalism tooth and nail day in and day out.
Maybe they're not naturalists, either. Daniel King
Zachriel, "It would seem most materialists would reject the universe being teleological, but that doesn’t mean they necessarily reject parochial purpose, such as a child trying to hit a home run." Hmmm, there is a whole line of study in psychology on "meaning". It seems clear to those who analyse our sense of meaning scientifically, that the best way to develop a sense of meaning is through altruism. In an evolutionary world, how the heck? Meaning doesn't come from the home run, it comes from self-sacrifice. bFast
'We’re not materialist' You are not a 'we' and the fact is that you defend materialism and/or naturalism tooth and nail day in and day out. So your denial makes 'you', a real person and not an illusion, a liar. bornagain77
Zach:
Box: Now what you need to understand is that observing teleology in a universe that is supposed to be non-teleological — according to materialism — doesn’t help materialism.
It doesn’t hurt it either.
It doesn't hurt to be contradicted by what is observed?
Zach: For most materialists, purpose is considered a parochial function of the organism.
At issue is the inability to ground that. BTW at the same time most materialists insist that the evolution of life proceeds purposeless and unguided. Baseless assumptions and self-contradictory statements don't count as valid counter-arguments. Box
Box: Your argument at 10:
It is impossible for materialism to ground reason: 1. If materialism is true then the universe, and everything in it, is without teleology (purpose). [--> purpose is inherent to reason as is intensionality] 2. Reason cannot exist without teleology; e.g. science is aimed at truth. [--> inter alia!!!] 3. Materialism cannot ground reason (1 & 2). [--> If materialism, then, not-reason . . . not even computation as computing in the end depends on reason to create it] 4. Reason [--> manifestly, undeniably, self-evidently!] exists. conclusion: Materialism is false
. . . is on target. Not that that will budge those sufficiently determined to reject it. KF kairosfocus
bornagain77: contrary to what you, a person, desperately want to believe, materialism, your philosophy, is one of the most inconsistent philosophies imaginable. We're not materialist, but don't think that how you misrepresent materialism is a persuasive argument. Zachriel
If hydrogen and oxygen show purpose when combining to form water - or water itself shows purpose (ordered to specific, purposeful outcomes like nourishing and sustaining life), then that's a teleological universe. Silver Asiatic
Zach, contrary to what you, a person, desperately want to believe, materialism, your philosophy, is one of the most inconsistent philosophies imaginable. Besides the fact that materialism is empirically falsified by quantum mechanics,
"[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world.,, The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical - and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939
besides being empirically falsified, your philosophy also denies that you really exist as a real person. Yet, the fact that you really exist as a real person is the most sure thing you can possibly know about reality:
David Chalmers on Consciousness (Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo
a few more notes:
"that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.” Francis Crick - "The Astonishing Hypothesis" 1994 “We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good.” Matthew D. Lieberman – neuroscientist – materialist – UCLA professor "What you’re doing is simply instantiating a self: the program run by your neurons which you feel is “you.”" Jerry Coyne https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/04/04/eagleton-on-baggini-on-free-will/ The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant:,,) Read more here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0 "The neural circuits in our brain manage the beautifully coordinated and smoothly appropriate behavior of our body. They also produce the entrancing introspective illusion that thoughts really are about stuff in the world. This powerful illusion has been with humanity since language kicked in, as we’ll see. It is the source of at least two other profound myths: that we have purposes that give our actions and lives meaning and that there is a person “in there” steering the body, so to speak." [A.Rosenberg, The Atheist's Guide To Reality, Ch.9]
At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that:
"consciousness is an illusion"
A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins
”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”. Dawkins vs. Williams - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s
Here Dawkins admits that he cannot live consistently within his worldview
Who wrote Richard Dawkins’s new book? – October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don't feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
at 37:51 minute mark of following video, according to the law of identity, it is shown that Richard Dawkins does not exist as a real person: (the unity of Aristotelian Form is also discussed), i.e. ironically, in atheists denying that God really exists, they end up denying that they themselves really exist as a real persons
Atheistic Materialism – Does Richard Dawkins Exist? – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVCnzq2yTCg&t=37m51s
bornagain77
Box: Now what you need to understand is that observing teleology in a universe that is supposed to be non-teleological — according to materialism — doesn’t help materialism. It doesn't hurt it either. For most materialists, purpose is considered a parochial function of the organism. Zachriel
Zach: People simply observe it. “Look, Dad! I’m going to hit the ball.” Dad pitches the ball. The child swings, and hits the ball.
Sure ppl observe teleology, I agree. Now what you need to understand is that observing teleology in a universe that is supposed to be non-teleological — according to materialism — doesn't help materialism. Box
bornagain77: you need to realize that there is a vast difference between the philosophy of materialism and the people who claim to be materialists. There's some difference. Philosophers tend to confuse themselves a lot. It's hard to be original in philosophy. bornagain77: That materialists, i.e. people, cannot live consistently within the presuppositions of materialism, That's your claim, but materialism is self-consistent, even if you don't find it compelling. Zachriel
Box: It’s not a valid counter-argument to state, as you do: “but most materialists simply assume all that”. People simply observe it. "Look, Dad! I'm going to hit the ball." Dad pitches the ball. The child swings, and hits the ball. https://emmaschildren.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/10198282-happy-father-and-his-son-playing-baseball.jpg Zachriel
Zach, You are right. Most materialists assume the existence of purpose, morality, consciousness, reason and so forth. However once in a while it is being pointed out to them that, given materialism, they cannot ground these things. It's not a valid counter-argument to state, as you do: "but most materialists simply assume all that". Box
Zachriel you need to realize that there is a vast difference between the philosophy of materialism and the people who claim to be materialists. That materialists, i.e. people, cannot live consistently within the presuppositions of materialism, i.e. a philosophy, is certainly not proof that the philosophy materialism is true, but it is in fact solid proof that it is false. That such a simple point escapes your grasp does not reflect well on your ability to reason. Such an elementary failure in logic on your part makes me wonder if you are still trying to learn basic stuff, like how to tie your shoes properly. bornagain77
Box: Sometimes materialism seems infinitely malleable and difficult to pin down, Materialism is not a single view, but a multitude of views; hence you can't necessarily pin down materialism, but you should be able to pin down an individual materialist. Box: but materialists seem particularly fond of the concept of a non-teleological universe. It would seem most materialists would reject the universe being teleological, but that doesn't mean they necessarily reject parochial purpose, such as a child trying to hit a home run. Zachriel
Box: 1. If materialism is true then the universe, and everything in it, is without teleology (purpose). Zachriel: The claim was that materialists reject the existence of purpose bornagain77: no the claim is that the philosophy of materialism denies the existence of purpose ... You need to remove the word "no" from that phrase. bornagain77: the claim is that the philosophy of materialism denies the existence of purpose ... Most materialists recognize that a child swinging a bat is purposeful. It's a parochial purpose, that's all. Your precept is false. Zachriel
Kairosfocus, While I'm a supporter of the argument from rational inference that you and Victor Reppert have presented, the argument presented at #10 is IMO different. My intention is to focus on yet another aspect of reason: the indispensable teleological nature of rational inquiry. Without aim how can reason possibly exist? Sometimes materialism seems infinitely malleable and difficult to pin down, but materialists seem particularly fond of the concept of a non-teleological universe. The argument at #10 is saying: if they want it so much, let them have it :) Box
no the claim is that the philosophy of materialism denies the existence of purpose yet materialists are unable to live consistently with that materialistic presupposition. i.e. Materialists live AS IF their lives had purpose even though their proclaimed materialistic worldview denies its reality. It is called being in cognitive dissonance. I suggest reading Nancy Pearcey's book, 'Finding Truth', for a deeper treatment of the subject:
[Nancy Pearcey] When Reality Clashes with Your Atheistic Worldview - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0Kpn3HBMiQ podcast - Are Humans Simply Robots? Nancy Pearcey on the “Free Will Illusion” http://www.discovery.org/multimedia/audio/2015/08/are-humans-simply-robots-nancy-pearcey-on-the-free-will-illusion/#more-30001 Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: Even materialists often admit that, in practice, it is impossible for humans to live any other way. One philosopher jokes that if people deny free will, then when ordering at a restaurant they should say, "Just bring me whatever the laws of nature have determined I will get." An especially clear example is Galen Strawson, a philosopher who states with great bravado, "The impossibility of free will ... can be proved with complete certainty." Yet in an interview, Strawson admits that, in practice, no one accepts his deterministic view. "To be honest, I can't really accept it myself," he says. "I can't really live with this fact from day to day. Can you, really?",,, In What Science Offers the Humanities, Edward Slingerland, identifies himself as an unabashed materialist and reductionist. Slingerland argues that Darwinian materialism leads logically to the conclusion that humans are robots -- that our sense of having a will or self or consciousness is an illusion. Yet, he admits, it is an illusion we find impossible to shake. No one "can help acting like and at some level really feeling that he or she is free." We are "constitutionally incapable of experiencing ourselves and other conspecifics [humans] as robots." One section in his book is even titled "We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.",,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
bornagain77
bornagain77: Besides not “hitting a home run”, materialism can’t even get on first base as to explaining mind So? The claim was that materialists reject the existence of purpose, but the vast majority of materialists recognize that trying to hit a home run is purposeful. Zachriel
as to: "e.g. hitting a home run." Besides not "hitting a home run", materialism can't even get on first base as to explaining mind:
‘But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can’t even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don’t even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.’ David Barash – Materialist/Atheist - evolutionary biologist and professor of psychology at the ­University of Washington
further notes on the sheer poverty of materialism as to ever explaining mind: David Chalmers is semi-famous for getting the ‘hard problem’ of consciousness across to lay people in a very easy to understand manner:
David Chalmers on Consciousness (Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo
Massachusetts Institute of Technology neuroscientist Sebastian Seung makes this clear in his book “Connectome,” saying:
“Every day we recall the past, perceive the present and imagine the future. How do our brains accomplish these feats? It’s safe to say that nobody really knows.”
There is simply no direct evidence that anything material is capable of generating consciousness. As Rutgers University philosopher Jerry Fodor says,
"Nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. Nobody even knows what it would be like to have the slightest idea about how anything material could be conscious. So much for the philosophy of consciousness. Regardless of our knowledge of the structure of the brain, no one has any idea how the brain could possibly generate conscious experience."
As Nobel neurophysiologist Roger Sperry wrote,
"Those centermost processes of the brain with which consciousness is presumably associated are simply not understood. They are so far beyond our comprehension at present that no one I know of has been able even to imagine their nature."
From modern physics, Nobel prize-winner Eugene Wigner agreed:
"We have at present not even the vaguest idea how to connect the physio-chemical processes with the state of mind."
Contemporary physicist Nick Herbert states,
"Science's biggest mystery is the nature of consciousness. It is not that we possess bad or imperfect theories of human awareness; we simply have no such theories at all. About all we know about consciousness is that it has something to do with the head, rather than the foot."
Physician and author Larry Dossey wrote:
"No experiment has ever demonstrated the genesis of consciousness from matter. One might as well believe that rabbits emerge from magicians' hats. Yet this vaporous possibility, this neuro-mythology, has enchanted generations of gullible scientists, in spite of the fact that there is not a shred of direct evidence to support it."
And whereas the materialists has no clue how to get to first base trying to explain how mind can possibly emerge from matter, the Theist is literally overflowing with positive empirical evidence supporting his belief that mind precedes matter:
A Short Survey Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Excerpt: Putting all the lines of evidence together the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
bornagain77
Zachriel A subjectively chosen goal is not an ontological purpose, and so is incapable of giving true meaning. But that substitution is one of those stock, subject switching dismissive talking points. The real problem is that the evolutionary materialist view utterly undermines the knowing mind and by reducing contemplation to computation -- which it cannot account for either -- it fails to see that it fatally undermines rationality. Let me clip Reppert for just one quick summary:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
This gives more: http://iose-gen.blogspot.com/2010/06/origin-of-mind-man-morals-etc.html#slf_ref KF kairosfocus
Zach: Even if materialism is true, it doesn’t mean people can’t have a purpose; e.g. hitting a home run.
You simply assume what you need to explain. Given materialism — a purposeless universe — how do you explain the existence of purpose? // Dawkins: "The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” Box
Box: 1. If materialism is true then the universe, and everything in it, is without teleology (purpose). Even if materialism is true, it doesn't mean people can't have a purpose; e.g. hitting a home run. Zachriel
It is impossible for materialism to ground reason: 1. If materialism is true then the universe, and everything in it, is without teleology (purpose). 2. Reason cannot exist without teleology; e.g. science is aimed at truth. 3. Materialism cannot ground reason (1 & 2). 4. Reason exists. conclusion: Materialism is false Box
bFast #1 - This is the whole point. Ontologically speaking, the computer "playing chess" is simply switching bits on and off, which are entirely explainable effects from the causation of voltages, wires and transistors. As conscious agents we are able to see that the contrived system is actually playing chess which is an abstract concept and ontologically separate from what the actual device is doing. I think you are confusing things and Barry's point thesis remains valid. aqeels
Of related note to the 'not even wrong' atheistic claim that mind is reducible to chemistry: Einstein was once asked (by a philosopher):
"Can physics demonstrate the existence of 'the now' in order to make the notion of 'now' into a scientifically valid term?"
Einstein's answer was categorical, he said:
"The experience of 'the now' cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics."
Quote was taken from the last few minutes of this following video or can be read in full context in the article following the video:
Stanley L. Jaki: "The Mind and Its Now" https://vimeo.com/10588094 The Mind and Its Now - Stanley L. Jaki, July 2008 Excerpts: There can be no active mind without its sensing its existence in the moment called now.,,, Three quarters of a century ago Charles Sherrington, the greatest modern student of the brain, spoke memorably on the mind's baffling independence of the brain. The mind lives in a self-continued now or rather in the now continued in the self. This life involves the entire brain, some parts of which overlap, others do not. ,,,There is no physical parallel to the mind's ability to extend from its position in the momentary present to its past moments, or in its ability to imagine its future. The mind remains identical with itself while it lives through its momentary nows. ,,, the now is immensely richer an experience than any marvelous set of numbers, even if science could give an account of the set of numbers, in terms of energy levels. The now is not a number. It is rather a word, the most decisive of all words. It is through experiencing that word that the mind comes alive and registers all existence around and well beyond. ,,, All our moments, all our nows, flow into a personal continuum, of which the supreme form is the NOW which is uncreated, because it simply IS. http://www.saintcd.com/science-and-faith/277-the-mind-and-its-now.html?showall=1&limitstart=
The statement, 'the now' cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement’, was an interesting statement for Einstein to make since 'the now of the mind' has, from many recent experiments in quantum mechanics, undermined the space-time of Einstein's General Relativity as to being the absolute frame of reference for reality.
A Short Survey Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Excerpt: Putting all the lines of evidence together the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
i.e. 'the now of the mind', contrary to what Einstein thought possible for experimental physics, and according to advances in quantum mechanics, takes precedence over past events in time. Moreover, due to advances in quantum mechanics, it would now be much more appropriate to phrase Einstein's answer to the philosopher in this way:
"It is impossible for the experience of 'the now of the mind' to ever be divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics."
Experiment and Quote:
Reality doesn’t exist until we measure it, (Delayed Choice) quantum experiment confirms - Mind = blown. - FIONA MACDONALD - 1 JUN 2015 Excerpt: "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it," lead researcher and physicist Andrew Truscott said in a press release. http://www.sciencealert.com/reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms "Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!" Scott Aaronson - MIT associate Professor
Verse:
Psalm 139:17-18 How precious concerning me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
bornagain77
goodusername states
Ingest certain chemicals that affect the physical chemicals of the brain and you’ll see lots unicorns and not just black swans but purple and yellow ones.
and dgw states
The chemicals sensed in smelling freshly cooked bread generate different thoughts than the chemicals sensed in smelling body odor, or tasting canned peaches (which invoke thoughts of what a good fresh peach tastes like.).
Although chemicals can have pronounced effects on the perception of mind, mind still is not reducible to chemistry. That the mind has causal power over the brain and is therefore not reducible to brain is revealed by Schwartz's work in brain plasticity:
The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz's work) - Oct. 2014 - video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70
Moreover besides Brain Plasticity, mind can also, completely contrary to materialistic thought, reach all the way down and have pronounced effects on the gene expression of our bodies:
Scientists Finally Show How Your Thoughts Can Cause Specific Molecular Changes To Your Genes, - December 10, 2013 Excerpt: “To the best of our knowledge, this is the first paper that shows rapid alterations in gene expression within subjects associated with mindfulness meditation practice,” says study author Richard J. Davidson, founder of the Center for Investigating Healthy Minds and the William James and Vilas Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “Most interestingly, the changes were observed in genes that are the current targets of anti-inflammatory and analgesic drugs,” says Perla Kaliman, first author of the article and a researcher at the Institute of Biomedical Research of Barcelona, Spain (IIBB-CSIC-IDIBAPS), where the molecular analyses were conducted.,,, the researchers say, there was no difference in the tested genes between the two groups of people at the start of the study. The observed effects were seen only in the meditators following mindfulness practice. In addition, several other DNA-modifying genes showed no differences between groups, suggesting that the mindfulness practice specifically affected certain regulatory pathways. http://www.tunedbody.com/scientists-finally-show-thoughts-can-cause-specific-molecular-changes-genes/
bornagain77
BA: A nail on the head moment. Our civilisation has been so indoctrinated in a science is the only begetter of truth, a priori ideological evolutionary materialist scientism-driven mindset that more and more we believe in the poofery of chance and necessity driven mindless emergence. I have never heard of the cartoon opossum, but it seems to capture a mindset. Perhaps, we need to go back to Newton's vera causa, demonstrated adequate cause principle: when explaining the cause of traces of an effect that we did not or cannot directly observe we should only allow ourselves to bring to the table causal factors shown to be relevant by causing the like result. Otherwise, we will tend to be caught up in ever more speculative ideologically driven webs of rhetoric. Too often, spun by a clever story-teller dressed up in a lab coat. For instance, above someone suggested:
My computer is known to be a bunch of silicone, doping, gold wires and such — plus a bit of electricity; yet it can play chess pretty well
Left out, that computer is full of hardware and software that are full of functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I that we actually know to have come from the contrivance of highly intelligent and skilled designers. And, on trillions of cases in point, that is the ONLY actually observed actual cause. Worse, a needle in haystack analysis will readily show that the abstract notion that such could spontaneously assemble itself through blind watchmaker chance and blind necessity is vanishingly implausible on the gamut of our observed cosmos. And, there are now others who would suggest, well in some abstractly possible world, the like could conceivably happen for all we know and maybe God thought it elegant to set the ball rolling on that world. So there, there is no reason for us to say that the FSCO/I you point to is a reliable sign of design. At least, empirically detectable design. What non ad hoc reason do you have for dismissing the inductive inference and the associated analysis, much less the point that a relevant and competent- by- its- nature cause is needed for a given effect? Ans: Nil. But it is convenient to burn down empirically based inductive reasoning in order to sustain a dominant ideology of our time, whether on materialistic or speculative theological grounds. On either case, one injects grand delusion and would undermine the basis for soundly and confidently operating in the world of our actual experiences. The incoherence should trip all sorts of warning flags. Likewise we see rebuttal attempts along the lines:
Ingest certain chemicals that affect the physical chemicals of the brain and you’ll see lots unicorns and not just black swans but purple and yellow ones.
I would respectively suggest that illusions like that are based on rearranging existing mental furniture. Material causal factors are never adequate to explain complex, information-rich functionally specific organisation. Again, we see a denial of the mind by substitution of the brain. The underlying problem is a refusal to recognise that computational signal processing (and interfering with it in usually ill advised ways) is simply not in the same category of entity as is the self-aware experience of rational or even delusional contemplation. Which is our first direct experience and the gateway through which we access the world we share. But, we have been indoctrinated not to see the obvious. And of course, the notion that a few chemicals in a pond or in a comet core etc got together and formed a self-replicating enzymatically active entity that evolved by incremental descent with modification through the wonders of natural selection is bound to come up. It is, after all the championed explanatory motif of the evolutionary materialists. The answer to this is the vera causa test: apart from gross ideologically contaminated extrapolation, has such blind chance and mechanical necessity bees shown by observation to be an actually adequate cause to form FSCO/I? No. But, the easy out is to then deny the existence of FSCO/I or pretend that an arbitrarily high burden of proof that it exists has not been met or even to suggest that this is an idiosyncratic notion not worth even entertaining. This is of course closed minded objectionism rooted in selective hyperskepticism. The very text of objecting comments suffices to show cases of FSCO/I as do the computers etc we are using and a world of technology all around. Not that such will faze the determined objector. Just, we will have to recognise what we are dealing with by way of a tangled web of fallacies. It's possible for all we know, under such circumstances, falls to the ground in the face of a bit of 2,000 year old Galilean peasant wisdom:
Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
Time to think again. KF kairosfocus
as to Bob at 4:
"Am I to take it that sound is in the same ontological category as thought? Or merely that chemicals are not involved in sound in any way?"
Sound has a much deeper, 'pre-chemistry', relationship to the origin of nature than you seem to realize.
Big Bang Sound Recording 'Remix' Created By Physicist - 04/04/2013 Excerpt: While you might think that because space is a vacuum the explosion of a singularity wouldn't make any sound at all, Cramer told QMI that "the Big Bang is the exception to this, because the medium that pervaded the universe in the first 100,000 years or so was far more dense than the atmosphere of the Earth." In other words, matter was so dense in the early Universe that it carried sounds waves in much the same way air does on Earth. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/04/big-bang-sound-recording-john-cramer_n_3007975.html Photons and Phonons Excerpt: You see, the primary Planck-Law (E=hf) is metaphysical and independent on the inertia distribution of the solid states.,,, Both, photon and phonon carry massequivalent energy m=E/c2=hf/c2. The matter-light interaction so is rendered electromagnetically noninertial for the photon and becomes acoustically inertial for the phonons; both however subject to Bose-Einstein stochastic wave mechanics incorporative the Planck-Law.,, Where, how and why does E=hf correctly and experimentally verifiably describe the quantum mechanics of energy propagation?,,, http://www.tonyb.freeyellow.com/id135.html Phonon Excerpt: In physics, a phonon,, represents an excited state in the quantum mechanical quantization of the modes of vibrations,, The name phonon,, translates as sound or voice because long-wavelength phonons give rise to sound. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon
semi related:
Engineers make sound (with high enough frequency) to bend light on a computer chip - Nov 26, 2014 Excerpt: "Our breakthrough is to integrate optical circuits in the same layer of material with acoustic devices in order to attain extreme strong interaction between light and sound waves,",, The researchers used the state-of-the-art nanofabrication technology to make arrays of electrodes with a width of only 100 nanometers (0.00001 centimeters) to excite sound waves at an unprecedented high frequency that is higher than 10 GHz, the frequency used for satellite communications. "What's remarkable is that at this high frequency, the wavelength of the sound is even shorter than the wavelength of light. This is achieved for the first time on a chip,",, They are investigating the interaction between single photons (the fundamental quantum unit of light) and single phonons (the fundamental quantum unit of sound). The researcher plan to use sound waves as the information carriers for quantum computing. http://phys.org/news/2014-11-loud-chip.html Evan Grant: Making sound visible through cymatics - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsjV1gjBMbQ Sound waves precisely position nanowires - June 19. 2013 Excerpt: The smaller components become, the more difficult it is to create patterns in an economical and reproducible way, according to an interdisciplinary team of Penn State researchers who, using sound waves, can place nanowires in repeatable patterns for potential use in a variety of sensors, optoelectronics and nanoscale circuits. http://phys.org/news/2013-06-precisely-position-nanowires.html
Verse:
Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
bornagain77
And if Popperian were to yell, “False! You are committing inductivism,” we would think he is a loon.
Am I to take it that sound is in the same ontological category as thought? Or merely that chemicals are not involved in sound in any way? Bob O'H
The chemicals sensed in smelling freshly cooked bread generate different thoughts than the chemicals sensed in smelling body odor, or tasting canned peaches (which invoke thoughts of what a good fresh peach tastes like.). Barry, sorry, but respectfully, this one is a miss. dgw
Similarly, the physical chemicals in the brain are incapable of producing the mental images in the mind. There is a vast, unbridgeable ontological gulf between physical things and mental things. Therefore, we can rule out, in principle and a priori “chemicals” as a cause of “thoughts.”
Ingest certain chemicals that affect the physical chemicals of the brain and you'll see lots unicorns and not just black swans but purple and yellow ones. goodusername
Hmmm. My computer is known to be a bunch of silicone, doping, gold wires and such -- plus a bit of electricity; yet it can play chess pretty well. bFast

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