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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
Box: And if so, does consciousness, as a property, have decision-power? Or lies decision-power with the system?
Liz: I’d say that being consciousness is part of the process of deliberate decision-making. It’s also possible to train yourself to act “unconsciously” as when we learn to be fluent in a musical instrument, for instance, when we don’t need to make individual decisions to move our fingers, yet their is an overall decision to play a phrase, or a chord, or an entire piece of music.
You are not answering my question at all. We are talking past each other. This has been going on for several posts now. I have done my best to ask clear questions. I did rephrase some of them several times. I'm done. Thank you for trying to communicate.Box
September 18, 2013
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Mung:
She would never have offered to refute your argument if she had ever understood it. It’s all your fault, Upright BiPed.
I offered to try to refute it, and tried hard to understand it. I also said I had no confidence I could do it. And then I timed out. So no, it wasn't all Upright Biped's fault. But I do think his argument has serious conceptual problems.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Mung:
“Evolutionary theory is sufficient to explain life”. Is this a claim you’ve frequently encountered here at UD?
It's a simple statement of a claim I've frequently seen attributed to "Darwinists", who have been challenged to defend it. Another version is "Chance and necessity are sufficient to explain life".
In your extensive interactions with Upright BiPed, is that his claim? KF, claims this? Barry claims this? VJT claims this? WJM claims this? PaV claims this? News claims this? Cornelius Hunter claims this? Kirk Dunston claims this? StephenB claims this? I could go on and on and on. Please point to the OP here at UD where it is asserted that Darwinists claim that “Evolutionary theory is sufficient to explain life.”
Well, refer to the Explanatory Filter - if Chance and Necessity are not Sufficient then conclude Design. William of course attributes other beliefs to "Darwinism":
DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is simply another naturally-selected means of genetic distribution. DARWINISM is the belief that PEDOPHILIA is just another naturally-occurring attraction. DARWINISM holds that Hitler and Mother Teresa were moral equals.
By comparison, the claim that Darwinism says that evolutionary theory is sufficient to account for life is only a little bit wrong. And if nobody here thinks that's what Darwinism says, I'm delighted. Because of course, it would be an invalid claim.
Contrary to your assertion, everyone here that I know of claims the exact opposite.
What, that "Darwinists" don't think that evolutionary theory is sufficient to explain life? Or that evolutionary theory isn't sufficient to explain life? It is certainly not valid to claim that "evolutionary theory is sufficient to explain life". No scientific model is ever sufficient.
The claim of ID is that Darwinism does not and cannot, even in principle, explain life.
It certainly cannot explain OOL, and, as yet, we do not have a complete OOL theory. And, depending on what you mean by "Darwinism", it is not a complete explanation for evolution, firstly because to Darwinian mechanisms we must add drift, and secondly because Darwin made no attempt to explain the origins of heritable variance, and we have only scratched the surface of that so far. There will never be a complete account of what evolved from what, and why or how, and so there will never be a sufficient body of evolutionary theory. This means that it is invalid for any scientist to claim: we know everything now; that means that there is no Designer. Science cannot rule out Design.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
I am still waiting for you to make a case that I understand.
She would never have offered to refute your argument if she had ever understood it. It's all your fault, Upright BiPed. The excuses wear thin.Mung
September 18, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Mung, the second claim is essentially that made by Dembski. The first is one often alleged to be made by “Darwinists. They are not “equivalent” indeed, but both are scientifically invalid.
Second claim second. You assert that Dembki's arguments for ID can be reduced to, in essence, the claim that: “We can infer Design from the insufficiency of evolutionary theory to explain life”. This demonstrates a profound misreading of Dembski. It calls into question any claim you've ever made to have understood Dembski or to have dealt with his argument.Mung
September 18, 2013
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Since you claim to study purposes, free will and consciousness, surely you are willing to share with the world their locations in the brain.
I do not think that purposes, free will and conciousness have "locations in the brain". I think that brains, and particular brain networks are necessary for an organism to conceive a purpose and choose to act in a way that will bring it about, and to be concious of the environment, itself, and its own purpose, but I'd say that these capacities - to be conscious of the world and to conceive and excecute a purpose - are properties of the whole organism. To ask the location is like asking which tree is the forest.
//about systems: Is consciousness a property of a system?
Yes. It's a property of some organisms, human beings, for example, although we are not always conscious of very much.
And if so, does consciousness, as a property, have decision-power? Or lies decision-power with the system?
I'd say that being consciousness is part of the process of deliberate decision-making. It's also possible to train yourself to act "unconsciously" as when we learn to be fluent in a musical instrument, for instance, when we don't need to make individual decisions to move our fingers, yet their is an overall decision to play a phrase, or a chord, or an entire piece of music. But normally we do not call actions, at least at the level above trained and flexible automaticity, "decisions" unless we are conscious of making them. When conscious decisions are made, there is evidence for greater involvement of certain brain networks, particularly a network including frontal (dorsolateral prefrontal cortex) and parietal regions (intraparietal sulcus), and there is also another network, involving the anterior insula and the anterior cinculate cortex that seems to be important for registering what is important, and recruiting brain areas necessary for dealing with it (sometimes called the "salience network"). There is also an area in the medial frontal cortex that seems particularly important in self-referential thought. But that doesn't mean that these things are "located" in these regions - it means that these are the parts of ourselves we use when we are actively attending to and engaging with the world. In other words, in my view, "I" am a whole organism, of which my brain is an important, but not, clearly, the only part, nor the only part involved in consciousness and decision-making.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Mung, the second claim is essentially that made by Dembski. The first is one often alleged to be made by “Darwinists. They are not “equivalent” indeed, but both are scientifically invalid.
First claim first:
“Evolutionary theory is sufficient to explain life”.
Is this a claim you've frequently encountered here at UD? In your extensive interactions with Upright BiPed, is that his claim? KF, claims this? Barry claims this? VJT claims this? WJM claims this? PaV claims this? News claims this? Cornelius Hunter claims this? Kirk Dunston claims this? StephenB claims this? I could go on and on and on. Please point to the OP here at UD where it is asserted that Darwinists claim that "Evolutionary theory is sufficient to explain life." Contrary to your assertion, everyone here that I know of claims the exact opposite. The claim of ID is that Darwinism does not and cannot, even in principle, explain life.Mung
September 18, 2013
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Upright Biped:
The problem for you Dr Liddle is that you demonstrate your bad faith and have it recorded on these forums on a regular basis.
That, even if true, and of course, I dispute it, is irrelevant to the rule at TSZ, which is that posters must assume, for the purposes of discussion, that other posters are posting in good faith, whether they believe it to be the case or not. I set up that rule because I wanted to get, if possible, past the mutual suspicion and on to the substance of disagreements.
Like when I asked you if X is even possible without A and you say “no”, then I ask if X is even possible without B, and you say “no”, and so finally I ask if A and B are irreducible conditions for X and you say, “well I don’t see why that is”.
Well, I'd certainly want a link to context before I could comment on that. As I recall, we had a great deal of difficulty in finding clear operational definitions for the terms of our debate, and it is possible that what you are referring to arose from that difficulty.
You do this just because you can’t allow yourself to agree with an ID advocate that biological systems demonstrate irreducibly complex arrangements.
It's not that I "can't bring myself to agree", Upright Biped. In fact, I agree that some biological systems are Irreducibly Complex. I just don't agree (with good reasons) that that is a bar to evolvability.
That is not merely a misunderstanding, Dr Liddle, it’s just plain ole bad faith, and the recorded examples of it can be presented over and over again.
Well, as you don't even seem to have understood my position, I'd say it was misunderstanding.
It’s the same kind of bad faith you displayed when you could not simulate the rise of information based on a material definition of information. But instead of having the integrity to admit it, you played it off that you meant Dembski’s CSI instead.
Upright BiPed, as there are no rules here about assuming good faith I am going to tell you this straight: this is a lie. It is, firstly untrue, and secondly, you know it is untrue. I made it very clear, as soon as you made it clear to me that you were not referring to Dembski's CSI, that my claim did not apply to your measure. This is on record, and you can find the posts, with the dates. In fact, you have already done so in the past, and so have I. That is why I know you know this is untrue. For months - years - now, you have been hounding me about this, and no matter how many times I have said - absolutely explicitly - that I had no confidence I could meet your challenge (though i was willing to have a go), because my original claim had referred to something else - you will not give up accusing me of "bad faith". This is extremely irritating.
Unfortunately, you can’t make a minor spectacle of how important my operational definition of information is, and then turn around after failing to produce it and pretend you thought I meant Dembski’s CSI.
No, indeed. Which is why that wasn't what happened. My original claim wasn't even addressed to you.
It’s intellectually dishonest Dr Liddle.
It is plain dishonest to say things that are not true.
And when you are finally forced to agree with the observations of semiosis, and asked to retract your standing claim to know “no valid argument for design” you can’t then turn around and suddenly start to wonder what semiosis could possibly have to do with design.
I do not "agree with the observations of semiosis". I still find your argument largely incomprehensible. It may be valid or it may not be. But I do not know it to be valid.
It’s just flat dishonest, Dr Liddle, yet you parade yourself around here as a paragon of scientific reason and refinement, peppering the participants here with a constant non-stop flow of personal advertising, promoting yourself in a never ending stream of public announcements as the epitome of a disinterested, metaphysically-neutral scientist – when nothing could be further from the truth.
Oh for goodness' sake, Upright Biped. I am not "parading" - I am having conversations with people. This is simply smear.
It just doesn’t play anymore. But you are not just a benign spectacle of self-denial Dr Liddle, you are also on the attack to protect your territory, and that only makes it worse.
I am not attacking anything. I am attempting to defend attacks on my own integrity.
After I posted literally dozens of trash comments thrown at me while I was debating Bill, you came back to imply that perhaps (just maybe) there was one by elzinga that crossed the line.
I noted that there was a post by Mike, before yours, in the new Penguin Rules thread, that I should have moved. In the previous thread there were a large number of rule-violating posts, by a number of posters, including you. Which is fine, because the rule is not a moral rule, it's just a game rule, which I temporarily suspended.
Then you go right back to into the masquerade; explaining how your new thread was “Penguin Rules” where you’ll not tolerate offending comments. But as it is always the case with you, over and over again, the problem is reality. Half the comments I posted came from your new thread. There was never even the slightest intent by you to remove any comments, and certainly none to reign in your swamp dogs.
Actually there was. And if I did not move subsequent posts, then I apologise. I do not always have the opportunity to moderate as diligently as I would like. But on a quick skim I do not see any other posts that I would move.
Your entire positioning statement on the matter, like The Skeptical Zone itself, is a complete charade. It just doesn’t play anymore. At least not for me. Others apparently feel differently, and that is fine. You and I needn’t interact.
Indeed.
You want to be a shining example of science and reason?
No, I just want to find out about the world, and discuss it.
The next time someone gives you an argument for design, where you must agree with observations and cannot dispute the rationale; then don’t deny it (even if it doesn’t convince you). Instead, try saying “I cannot deny your argument, but I am not convinced by it”.
What if I don't even understand the rationale, or the alleged "observations"? From my PoV you have not made a coherent case, Upright Biped.
It’s really not that hard, unless you can’t do it.
I am still waiting for you to make a case that I understand.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill:
(Anybody asks me about UD, I’m linking them to this thread.)
Is that because in this very thread you posted your absolute best argument in favor of neo-Darwinism and you want lots of people to read that, or because they would find here in this thread your best refutation of the arguments for intelligent design?Mung
September 18, 2013
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Liz
Liz #410 Certainly we can study will and consciousness, using the techniques of neuroscience. Sometimes a microscope is involved, (..)
Since you claim to study purposes, free will and consciousness, surely you are willing to share with the world their locations in the brain. //about systems: Is consciousness a property of a system? And if so, does consciousness, as a property, have decision-power? Or lies decision-power with the system?Box
September 18, 2013
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Jerad:
IF you took the time to really read serious discussions of evolutionary theory you’d realise how intently some of these issues have been debated and what a struggle it has been for there to arise a consensus regarding them.
I'm sure we'd read it if you could ever be bothered to engage in a serious discussion of evolutionary theory.Mung
September 18, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
KF, there is nothing on my site that is any worse that what is regularly tolerated on this one.
Elizabeth Liddle:
And I do not lie.
TSZ:
"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."
Mung
September 18, 2013
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Gads, Elizabeth, you are so frustrating. Why do I assert you're intellectually dishonest? Is the claim warranted? Here's what you wrote, which I quoted up-thread. Do you deny you wrote it?
I know that the ID is that certain patterns are best explained by an intelligent designer.
From your own MOUTH you KNOW that you misrepresent ID every single time you post something like this: “We can infer Design from the insufficiency of evolutionary theory to explain life”. AT BEST that is a straw-man. AT WORST you KNOW it is.Mung
September 18, 2013
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Box
Liz #404 So, I guess the next thing you are going to tell me is that by looking through the microscope you are studying ‘free will’ – or even consciousness itself.
Certainly we can study will and consciousness, using the techniques of neuroscience. Sometimes a microscope is involved, more often techniques like fMRI and electrophysiology (EEG, MEG).
p.s. you owe me a definition of ‘system’ and property; see #275.
OK. Well, I'm using "system" to refer to an assembly of parts that have properties not possessed by the parts, and by "properties", I mean stuff that can be said about them, for instance, colour, phase (solid, liquid, gaseous), what they do, how they behave, etc. So you might describe a habitat as a "system" consisting of organisms and inorganic resources, while those organisms are themselves "systems", consisting in their turn of subsystems (organs, tissues, cells, organelles, molecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles) and so on. At each level we have a system of parts that has properties that are different from the constituent parts.9Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Mung, the second claim is essentially that made by Dembski. The first is one often alleged to be made by "Darwinists. They are not "equivalent" indeed, but both are scientifically invalid.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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You did exactly as you are doing here, which was to repeatedly cast doubt on other people’s good faith.
The problem for you Dr Liddle is that you demonstrate your bad faith and have it recorded on these forums on a regular basis. Like when I asked you if X is even possible without A and you say “no”, then I ask if X is even possible without B, and you say “no”, and so finally I ask if A and B are irreducible conditions for X and you say, “well I don’t see why that is”. You do this just because you can’t allow yourself to agree with an ID advocate that biological systems demonstrate irreducibly complex arrangements. That is not merely a misunderstanding, Dr Liddle, it’s just plain ole bad faith, and the recorded examples of it can be presented over and over again. It’s the same kind of bad faith you displayed when you could not simulate the rise of information based on a material definition of information. But instead of having the integrity to admit it, you played it off that you meant Dembski’s CSI instead. Unfortunately, you can’t make a minor spectacle of how important my operational definition of information is, and then turn around after failing to produce it and pretend you thought I meant Dembski’s CSI. It’s intellectually dishonest Dr Liddle. And when you are finally forced to agree with the observations of semiosis, and asked to retract your standing claim to know “no valid argument for design” you can’t then turn around and suddenly start to wonder what semiosis could possibly have to do with design. It’s just flat dishonest, Dr Liddle, yet you parade yourself around here as a paragon of scientific reason and refinement, peppering the participants here with a constant non-stop flow of personal advertising, promoting yourself in a never ending stream of public announcements as the epitome of a disinterested, metaphysically-neutral scientist – when nothing could be further from the truth. It just doesn’t play anymore. But you are not just a benign spectacle of self-denial Dr Liddle, you are also on the attack to protect your territory, and that only makes it worse. After I posted literally dozens of trash comments thrown at me while I was debating Bill, you came back to imply that perhaps (just maybe) there was one by elzinga that crossed the line. Then you go right back to into the masquerade; explaining how your new thread was “Penguin Rules” where you’ll not tolerate offending comments. But as it is always the case with you, over and over again, the problem is reality. Half the comments I posted came from your new thread. There was never even the slightest intent by you to remove any comments, and certainly none to reign in your swamp dogs. Your entire positioning statement on the matter, like The Skeptical Zone itself, is a complete charade. It just doesn’t play anymore. At least not for me. Others apparently feel differently, and that is fine. You and I needn't interact. You want to be a shining example of science and reason? The next time someone gives you an argument for design, where you must agree with observations and cannot dispute the rationale; then don’t deny it (even if it doesn’t convince you). Instead, try saying "I cannot deny your argument, but I am not convinced by it". It's really not that hard, unless you can't do it.Upright BiPed
September 18, 2013
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Liz #404 So, I guess the next thing you are going to tell me is that by looking through the microscope you are studying 'free will' - or even consciousness itself. p.s. you owe me a definition of 'system' and property; see #275.Box
September 18, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
And I would say that the following two claims are scientifically invalid: “Evolutionary theory is sufficient to explain life”. “We can infer Design from the insufficiency of evolutionary theory to explain life”.
As if the two claims are somehow equivalent. As if the latter claim is one that ID people who post here or at TSZ make. As if Elizabeth is being intellectually honest.Mung
September 18, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Quote-mining: using quotations out of context, often with ellipses, without a link to the source, to support a point that is the opposite of the one the author intended to make.
You didn't supply a link appears to be the excuse du jour. Here's yet more of my wicked "quote-mining:"
My criticism of ID is not of the principle of attempting to detect design, but of the specific arguments made, and methods advanced. I don’t think they are valid, for a number of reasons. But I’ve frequently said that I think that ID investigations could be made rigorous. The problem is that that depends on investigating the methods of the designer. Front-loading is one example that might make different predictions to those of evolution. But an all-purpose “Designer must have done it” doesn’t work – because it is simply a gap-filler, and makes no predictions that can be tested. Whereas a designer who, for instance, frontloaded the genome, could, in principle make a testable prediction.
If my "quote-mining" makes it appear as if you're contradicting yourself it's for one simple reason. You're contradicting yourself.Mung
September 18, 2013
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Box:
Wrong. Neuroscience has never been (and will never be) able to study purpose. Purpose is part of consciousness – the subjective (hidden, private) domain.
Just because something cannot be observed directly, does not mean it cannot be studied. The way we conceive of and execute purpose (and why the process sometimes goes wrong, as in psychosis) is an active area of neuroscience research, and indeed, some of my own work is in this area.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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So, the trumpets are sounding, a viable force is at the ramparts, the gloves are off. You're in Spitfires giving Jerry hell (AK AK AK AK AK AK, take THAT, Nazi bastards!) At AtBC they said, "This is tard." But at UD they say, "This is WAR." Gromit, these amoral atheist materialist Darwinists are going to get the what for now. (Anybody asks me about UD, I'm linking them to this thread.)Reciprocating Bill
September 18, 2013
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And human beings construct models that comport with their worldview, whether they are scientists or not. This is why new paradigms in science are so difficult to get through; scientists are just human beings, subject to the same frailties, ego, stubborn beliefs and irrational commitments as anyone else.
Which is why results are always preliminary, subject to peer review and generally considered provisional until confirmed by repeated verification by several (at least) parties.
The question is, how much of a Rube-Goldberg model are they willing to construct, however absurd and counter-intutive, in order to preserve their worldview or serve their ego, protect their reputation or grants?
You can propose anything you like. Any silly, wild, stupid idea can be brought up. But the ones that gain some tractions are the ones that are explanatory and are verifiable to some extent. The ones that become theories have been verified to the extent that to deny them is less credible than to accept them.
It is either laughably naive or despicably deceptive to portray scientists as being above ego, bias and other human frailties and flaws as they “match models to data” as if such “matching” can be done in a objective vacuum free of a priori commitments. Materialism (and atheism) is the a priori commitment mainstream models of biological data are constructed through, and which data is interpreted by.
Scientists are people and are fallible and frequently wrong. Science is slower, more conservative and slower to accept strange and new ideas until they've been verified by many people over a long period of time under various circumstances.
That’s a model made to fit an ideology, not the data. All kinds of models can be made to fit the data; the problem is that the models a scientist is willing to conceive of is usuallly dictated by their fundamental worldview commitments.
But the models that become consensus are the ones that move past the preliminary, crazy, unfounded, what-the . . . stage.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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J: IF there is a god behind quantum physics then, based on observations and experimentation, s/he/it looks a lot like a series of equations. I’m not ascribing any behaviour or motivations to a deity. I’m saying that the phenomena we observe can be restricted and defined by a limited set of rules. Is that your God?
A: This is silly. Have you done any significant theology?
J: Nope. Is that a requirement of discussing accepted scientific models?
Nah, but it is certainly helpful when discussing what God "looks a lot like."Phinehas
September 18, 2013
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EL has flushed the rest of the little credibility she imagined she had down the toilet.
Dr Liddle is perfectly capable of standing up for herself. And can defend her positions much better that I can. But i find it deeply offensive that someone who has spent hours/days/weeks/months attempting to have a civilised dialogue on this forum is treated with such disrespect.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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But, of course, the great mysteries of QM are just stuff waiting to be explained when the fabled ‘promissory note’ is cashed in, aren’t they Jerad. Merely counter-intuitive.
Not at all. The laws of quantum mechanics are clear and established.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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It was very kind, if characteristic of KM, Jerad, but please don’t go easy on me on the grounds of my bereavement, as my faith has enabled me to weather it with far less pain than would otherwise have been the case. When I start going easy on you and the other trolls, you’ll know something’s wrong!
Which is what I'd assume. You're an intelligent adult. If you're here, joining the debate, then you're 'in'. If you need some time away then you'll take the time. I wouldn't want anyone judging me or evaluating my arguments based on my personal life.
That is simply childish, Jerad. For crying out loud, what makes you think God is coterminous with the equations he has used in his construction and maintenance of the universe? I don’t know why I’m even arguing with you when your capacity for logic is to ‘challenged’.
IF there is a god behind quantum physics then, based on observations and experimentation, s/he/it looks a lot like a series of equations. I'm not ascribing any behaviour or motivations to a deity. I'm saying that the phenomena we observe can be restricted and defined by a limited set of rules. Is that your God?
I could rephrase it, but it would be futile, as you appear incapable of inferring physical or metaphysical implications. You’re a troll, a spoiler, aren’t you. I’ll know better than to be ‘led up the garden path’ by you again. I can’t waste my time arguing at length with someone determined not to understand. I’ll just point out your more obvious mistakes, as and when.
It's your call. Spend time as you see fit.
Don’t come the raw prawn with me, laddie. If Niels Bohr opined that anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it, the clear implication is that it is you, who have not understood it. Bohr seems to have volunteered it, without my asking him. How about that. And you’re none the wiser, I’ll bet.
I still can't quite grasp why you think your interpretation is correct given that almost all physicists think that the theory of quantum mechanics is pretty deterministic.
‘We must be clear that when it comes to atoms, language can be used only as in poetry. The poet, too, is not nearly so concerned with describing facts as with creating images and establishing mental connections.’
Quantum mechanics addresses things that are not able to be experienced by humans in their daily lives. From a metaphoric point of view it's akin to poetry. But . . . the mathematics is clear and solid and proven.
This is the answer to you request for me to ‘rephrase’ my words,’ so that they make a little more sense….’ Your own failure to ‘create images and establish mental connections’ is your problem, and you are foolish enough to blame the messenger.
I still think you are misinterpreting the data.
You proudly that trumpet that you can’t see further than the mathematical equations, with which you imply that you are familiar and understand. You’re like the man who told the stranger who’d asked directions, ‘Well, if I wanted to go there, I wouldn’t set out from here….’
I do not think that you can interpret the findings of quantum mechanics on the macro-scale. I do not think it can be interpreted as giving any validation to any attempt to 'undermine materialism'. The rules of quantum mechanics are clear and established and deterministic. From our perspective they may seem strange and ambiguous but they are strict and limited.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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Axel: I do not think Penrose means what you think he means. Yet again: you cannot calculate "odds" for an event unless you know the conditions under which the event for which you are calculating the "odds" takes place. Probability is a measure of uncertainty. The probability of an event is not a property of the event but a property of our knowledge of the factors governing the event. Penrose calculation might mean a stupendous coincidence; it might mean an Intelligent Designer; it might mean that there are so many universes even unlikely events are likely to turn up some time; or it might mean that we simply still don't understand where the 2nd law of thermodynmics comes from. As he says, shortly after the passage you cite:
How can we gain any further understanding of the origin of the second law? We seem to have been forced into an impasse. We need to understand why space-time singularities have the structures that they appear to have; but space-time singularities are regions where our understanding of physics breaks down.
Infer God from that lack of understanding if you like, but at least let scientists attempt to increase their understanding without accusing them of trying to avoid God.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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The 1?s and 0?s on a buss are unpredictable, don’t follow any pattern aut warning, yet we know they are directed.
If we know the process that drives them and what the output of that process is then they are not unpredictable. Unpredictable does not mean you personally cannot predict them. I know you like to interpret reality based on your personal experience but there's more to it than just what you can understand with your limited view, experience and education. And I would say the same about myself.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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FYI Jerad, My sympathies. You however force me to be plain. Axel has recently lost his wife. I feel like a heel to have to repeatedly put that out in plain words that will hurt him, but you force me to. Your over-reaction to what was obviously meant as a compliment to a woman whose wit he admired, is very inapt here.
In my experience, women of my acquaintance do not like to be referred to as a 'bitch'. But, if I misinterpreted the comment then I shall withdraw on that point.
And for that matter, in the face of a slander fest, I have had to expend energies these past two days that I ought to be husbanding to deal with frightening surgery for a close family member.
Why are you here if your attention should be elsewhere? Why are you neglecting responsibilities which only you can address?
And that is before I come to other matters on my plate. Remember, when these little toxic rhetoric games are played, they are cutting real people who have maybe more than their fair share of painful life challenges handling. And that goes double for what has been going on at TSZ.
I have never, ever had anything to do with TSZ or AtBC. Please stop judging me based on your mis-interpretation of the motivations of the participants of those forums. Sometimes, you sound too blinded by your worldview to treat people like individuals instead of cardboard cutouts from your fantasy culture war.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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This is silly. Have you done any significant theology?
Nope. Is that a requirement of discussing accepted scientific models?
You may disagree with Christian theology or the Judaeo_Christian worldview as you please, but kindly do not twist it into a strawman to ridicule it. The essential point is that God is reason himself who has made and actively sustains an orderly cosmos by his word of power. That he may for good reasons occasionally act beyond the ordinary course does not make him a slave to his rules on the one hand nor a chaotic force on the other. Indeed, for miracles to serve as signs pointing beyond the usual course of the world, there has to be that usual course. Nothing stands out in a chaos as there simply is no pattern to mark a difference against. And more.
I do not understand the idea of a being being reason manifest. It's not possible to study, and make part of science, an entity that acts capriciously and without trace or 'documentation'. I'd ask you to document a full-blown, unambiguous, slam-dunk miracle but I suspect you'd mention Christ's resurrection and then we'd be off debating the historicity of that. Which can only lead nowhere really.
Of course, I point this out at the risk of yet another line of talking points, that ID is creationism in a cheap tuxedo. To which the first rebuttal is, on the declared agendas of too many, evo mat science often seems to be atheism trying to get prestige from a lab coat. But more directly, the inference to design is on inductive logic and empirical evidence, no reference to any religious tradition being necessary. So, let us set aside yet another sophomoric talking point or two and focus the pivotal issues.
I don't think asking you for hard empirical evidence of design or a designer is referencing any particular religious tradition unless you choose to see it that way. You've come up with a hypothesis and I'd like to hear your extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim. Given that your claims for complex specified information and 'islands of functionality' are, at this point, only contentions and not established scientific currency.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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