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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
What you are describing is propaganda.
Yes. Among other things, we need to better propagandize for our views, and against those of our enemies.
It is what is used by people and organizations to persuade when truth is not an option.
If by "not an option" you mean "useless for the most part", then yes. The truth is useless when it comes to swaying the views of most people, IMO.
Personally, if I felt that my only recourse to bring about the change I wished to see was to use propaganda, I would find something else to occupy my time.
As I said, you are free to do whatever you wish. Is using a gun in defense of truth and religious liberty somehow less evil than using propaganda in defense of truth and religious liberty? Yes, that's exactly what the side without principles wishes us to think - that propagandizing and marketing is somehow beneath us, and should be left for the evil to utilize. And so we let them hypnotize the masses and march us off of our high ground edifice.
But in any case, effective propaganda never relies on the kind of invective you are proposing here. It is much more subtle.
Effective propaganda and marketing uses a multi-tiered approach that includes the 2x4 as well as the subtle. If you doubt it, just look at TSZ - it's full of people that have bought the blatant dismissal and ridicule hook, line and sinker, and act as the cultural shock troops. You may not wish to believe that people are manipulated by overt invective, but many are.
Be wary of the Pogo dictum: “We have met the enemy and he is us.” When one stoops to the level of those with whom one is fighting, there is always the danger of becoming that which you despise.
And there you are, parroting the mantra of the enemy, beseeching us to not use effective tactics because those tactics will make us "like them". Because I use a gun to stop a serial killer doesn't mean I'm a serial killer. Yes, if most people in the world were spiritual, philosphical intellectuals like you and KN, then polite, rational debate might win the day. Unfortunately, that is not what we find in the world. We're up against implacable, non-rational, hate-filled nihilists and real theocratic warlords (not the ones Western atheists imagine reformed, post-enlightenment Christians to be, but the real, radical, Caliphate Muslim variety). Polite, rational debate is not going to win the day against those extremists.William J Murray
September 16, 2013
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LT,
My response to WJM simply showed that if he wants a war based on ridiculous positions, the Christian position is itself open to profound ridicule — deservedly and justifiably — on several fronts.
I take it you want that sign?Brent
September 16, 2013
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#111 Kairosfocus To me, as a non-christian perhaps, the profound wisdom of this quote (and many others) is lost on me. For the most part the verse strikes me as rather obvious. It seemed a fitting description for islam, until the wine and strong drink was introduced.Box
September 16, 2013
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Mark Frank #107
Me too – it will help me kick the habit – no more comments on UD until 16th of October.
Nooooo Mark :( Please reconsider your decision. (I like Mark... he is the unique person who appreciates my English :) )niwrad
September 16, 2013
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Guys as much as it frustrates me too, the idea of using propaganda, marketing and sticking it to them just does not sit well. That does not win the war that just makes it ugly. The truth will always win.....Andre
September 16, 2013
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LT, the attempted turnabout shows a strawman caricature of the design argument. As you know or should know, the evidence of FSCO/I in light of known causal forces, points to design as causal process per reliable empirically tested sign. That is the empirical case. So, FSCO/I points to design. That is empirically grounded evidence that then calls up the question, that we know also that design reflects purpose, which is associated with intelligent, volitional agent. So, on evidence of design as causal mechanism, we face questions -- which may go beyond science of candidate designers. All of this you know or should know by now so your repeated resorts to strawman caricatures and the associated toxic context in view raise serious questions indeed about your agenda. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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Sorry. I mean to address 115 to you, Box.Axel
September 16, 2013
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The Christian church seemed vulnerable 2000 years ago. Especially with its catchy motto: 'Take up your cross and follow me.'Axel
September 16, 2013
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PS: The Christian faith and wider Judaeo-Christian, theistic worldview, can be addressed on merits, though UD is not the place for a general debate. Save where someone like Dawkins plays at atmosphere poisoning or pretends that the existence of Jesus of Nazareth is historically dubious. Similarly, this worldview has a voice through its incorporated major ethical tradition -- pivoting on the Golden rule and our equal worth as made in God's image. I make references here on and here on for those interested in a 101 on warrant.kairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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KF, you first: Kindly point out a case where complex functionally specific digital code that works in algorithms and is associated with implementing machines came about in our observation by an immaterial, all-powerful, all-knowing being. My response to WJM simply showed that if he wants a war based on ridiculous positions, the Christian position is itself open to profound ridicule -- deservedly and justifiably -- on several fronts.LarTanner
September 16, 2013
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Bye, materialists! Promises, promises. They have to come back here. This is where the de facto authority is. You cannot keep atheists away even from general, Christian forums. They must bore the living day-lights out of each other on their own threads. And what intellectual fare can they profer. More Forrest Gump news flashes?Axel
September 16, 2013
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Onlookers: Ducking out just now allows MF to avoid addressing the issue of enabling of blatant and abusive smearing ongoing at one of his fav hangouts, TSZ. The good cop bad cop game proceeds. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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Box I did cite a biblical passage above. Which part of:
Isa 5:18 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, who draw sin as with cart ropes, . . . 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight! 22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, 23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! [ESV]
. . . do you reject as wise counsel (all that I said it is) and why. Do, let us know. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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Wow, Gregory! What a first choice as a paragon of 'heart'. Bob Hope. He might have given a lot of money to charity (not exactly the widow's mite), but he was a major, serial adulterer.Axel
September 16, 2013
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WJM: See why I emphasise the appeal to common good sense of the equivalent to the unprejudice4d man in the Clapham bus stop, informed by reasonably accessible facts? And, notice how the above objections simply do not address the facts in evidence. LT, for instance, kindly point out a case where complex functionally specific digital code that works in algorithms and is associated with implementing machines came about in our observation by blind chance and mechanical necessity: _________. Correct answer, nil. Such is routinely seen to be produced by intelligence and is only plausibly done by design, on needle in haystack grounds. Now, the evo mat agenda wants us to rule out this possibility ahead of examining the facts so that regardless of the utter implausibility it will be concluded that it "must" have happened by blind chance and mechanical necessity despite the evidence. The patent question begging, once the ordinary person understands this, will cause such agendas to implode. That is why there is such an effort to poison the atmosphere by slander -- slanders that LT and others need to very explicitly distance themselves from and repudiate. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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Tell you what guys. Let me propose an experiment. I suggest all Marxists, Darwinists, materialists, anti-theists, civilization-destroyers, hate-filled swine, useful idiots (have I missed anyone who might not fit the ID paradigm) all stop posting here, say for the next month? Let’s see what happens.
KN:
Count me in — I’m tired of trying to be where I’m clearly not wanted.
Me too - it will help me kick the habit - no more comments on UD until 16th of October.Mark Frank
September 16, 2013
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WJM said: Because the truth is, materialists hold a ridiculous position; that such complex bio-architecture was generated by a series of chance mistakes is an appallingly stupid position. We should call it such. People should be made to feel stupid for adopting such a stupid position. We should make that position as emotionally unappealing as possible.
LarTanner said: Right, because the evidence points to that very complex bio-architecture having been generated be a temperamental, invisible dude who forbids people to masturbate.
If you so enjoy parading your stupidity perhaps we can all pitch in and buy you a neon sign. We had to know that someone would come up with a post to vindicate everything WJM has said. Congratulations, LarTanner.Brent
September 16, 2013
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#LarTanner: Right, because the evidence points to that very complex bio-architecture having been generated be a temperamental, invisible dude who forbids people to masturbate.
I feel that Lar Tanner is right in bringing this up, since several people insert bible quotes in this thread. It's up to them to defend Christianity. I wonder about the bible quoting. For sure it's no good 'war tactics', since the conjuncture intelligent design & Christianity is doubly vulnerable. I'm very much interested in intelligent design, but I'm no christian. The suggestion of the existence of the aforementioned conjuncture makes me feel rather uncomfortable from time to time at uncommondescent.Box
September 16, 2013
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When the metaphysical findings of quantum mechanics of 80+ years ago, and ever since, for that matter c.f. bornagain77's dismissal as a spammer(!), are routinely scoffed at by the metaphysical naturalists, here, we are bound to conclude that we are dealing with refractory children, not intellectual peers; children, moreover, who should not even be in a regular school, but a reformatory school. The fact of the matter is that it serves the interests of the hyper-cynical, large corporations to have science touted as the ultimate paradigm of all knowledge. (Must keep religion out of it. That's just for imaginary stuff..). But crucially science qua scientism. Once the mechanistic paradigm is relegated to its proper metaphysical station, immeasurably below QM, the game will be up for them. It will be much more difficult for them to 'manufacture consent', to use Chomsky's term. The only corrupt propaganda tool left to them will be politicians' staple: opinion polls.Axel
September 16, 2013
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WJM, re. #92:
Low-information people that think with their emotions. They can be turned in the right direction, but “the truth”, for them, is only what is emotionally compelling. That is why good people can be swayed into doing and supporting bad things; it is made emotionally compelling, and they lack the critical reasoning skills to see through such manipulations.
What you are describing is propaganda. It is what is used by people and organizations to persuade when truth is not an option. Personally, if I felt that my only recourse to bring about the change I wished to see was to use propaganda, I would find something else to occupy my time. But in any case, effective propaganda never relies on the kind of invective you are proposing here. It is much more subtle. Be wary of the Pogo dictum: "We have met the enemy and he is us." When one stoops to the level of those with whom one is fighting, there is always the danger of becoming that which you despise.Bruce David
September 16, 2013
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What must be done **right now** is to make atheism/materialism emotionally unappealing, and make theism/spirituality/religion emotionally satisfying.
By whatever means necessary and facts be damned!
Because the truth is, materialists hold a ridiculous position; that such complex bio-architecture was generated by a series of chance mistakes is an appallingly stupid position. We should call it such. People should be made to feel stupid for adopting such a stupid position. We should make that position as emotionally unappealing as possible.
Right, because the evidence points to that very complex bio-architecture having been generated be a temperamental, invisible dude who forbids people to masturbate.LarTanner
September 16, 2013
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I completely agree with WJM.computerist
September 16, 2013
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WJM for president! I very much agree that we need better marketing. For starters I propose a T-shirt slogan thread. Also uncommondescent should get a facelift, including the addition of a decent menu with indexes of topics.Box
September 16, 2013
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OOps, lost my train of thought. Just said to KN in reply to his "not even wrong" appeal to "facts":
the FACT is that we cannot and have not observed the actual past of origins and are forced to inductively infer on signs. The further FACT is that FSCO/I exists as posts in this thread demonstrate as do the PCs we are using. It is a FACT that FSCO/I per billions of cases is a reliable sign of design. It is a FACT that life from the cell up is full of FSCO/I. It is a FACT that one is reasonable to take such as a basis for INFERRING inductively, that this is a sign of the design of life. It is a further FACT that in so inferring no appeal or assumption was made that has necessary roots in any religious tradition. It is also a FACT that one may reasonably infer from sign to causal process and observe that as designs reflect purposeful intelligence in action, a designer is the best explanation of an evident design, thus the evidence of design as process SUPPORTS the credibility of there being a designer of life. Onwards on similar cosmological evidence one may reasonably argue to the cosmos as designed and that this is best explained on and provides support for a cosmological designer.
We are dealing with people who want to warp people's minds to perceive a highly questionable theory about the deep and unobserved past, on dynamics that simply have not been shown to have the suggested capability, that the pictured past is a FACT. That is a serious bit of mind-bending and it needs to be exposed. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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WJM: Strat marketing in the market of ideas and agendas, will have to start with worldviews. (I think here Bass S- curve dynamics and the associated issue of adopters and refusers in an adoption wave. We have pioneers and early adopters, but do need the investments in a problem child to move growth rate to surge to dominance in the teeth of an entrenched and ruthless orthodoxy. The strategy is idea- insurgency, and viable force in being with a powerful base online and in a good, independent, well funded secure brick and mortar base. Some online education and the like will help. If we can get a couple of good talk radio shows and podcasts going that will help. The strategy of going around the lockout in science institutions through the IEEE etc has been very successful. Just this is going to take time. At popular level there needs to be a strong appeal to common good sense in light of obvious cases. Capital case in point is that the living cel contains digital code and implements algorithms to make proteins, tracing to code stored in DNA. The last time we saw codes popping out of noise and algorithms, was: __________. And, with proper backup, the Lewontin and Provine quotes are worth their weight in gold. The NSTA board declaration and its joint action with NAS to hold children in Kansas hostage are also potential scandals. False accusations of theocratic nazism and the like need to be exposed and the absence of effective anser in this thread speaks volumes.) We are indeed in a Kulturpampf, with pivotal institutions at stake, such as the academy, legislatures, science. Yes, there is a need for a popular, persuasive case, and this will have to take some of the dimensions of a public relations campaign, but that is by no means the core of the case to be made. There is going to have to be a patent breakdown of a system, and there will have to be credible alternative ideas and implementers. Int his case, a return to proper inductive logic and balanced critical awareness informed by sound analysis and scientific research, will be key. That is in part why I just said to KN:kairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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WJM, I don’t really want to opine about this thread, although I have very strong professional opinions about these topics. I just want to say that I really appreciate what you do. I wouldn’t change a thing.Upright BiPed
September 16, 2013
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KF, Yes, it would be nice to build the general population's ability to reason - but, IMO, that is a multi-generational project. What must be done **right now** is to make atheism/materialism emotionally unappealing, and make theism/spirituality/religion emotionally satisfying. IMO, ID is an idea that can be used in that manner. I'm not saying we should give up the science or the critical arguments in favor of it, but negative invective about the materialists clinging to the inventiveness of the chance faeries to build complex interdependent code-operated machinery would be, IMO, more effective on more people. Because the truth is, materialists hold a ridiculous position; that such complex bio-architecture was generated by a series of chance mistakes is an appallingly stupid position. We should call it such. People should be made to feel stupid for adopting such a stupid position. We should make that position as emotionally unappealing as possible. People naturally gravitate towards ID and religious/spiritual ideas anyway - because that is how they are designed, and it offers a sense of belonging to something greater, of purpose and value. The truth isn't enough, IMO; we need better marketing.William J Murray
September 16, 2013
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IMO, most people do not move from one idea to an entirely different one because of facts or sound critical reasoning; they move to a different idea largely because they are emotionally attracted to that idea and are emotionally dissatisfied with their previous idea. This is why many people become atheists. They become emotionally dissatisfied with/repulsed by their current idea of god (easy enough to do, given the right rhetoric and uncritical emotional pleading), and become emotionally attached to logically unsupportable atheistic sound bites and tropes. The infotainment industry and academia pave the way for this emotional manipulation by always portraying the religious or spiritual as evil or crazy, and portray agnostics or atheists as rational, more intelligent, or more "enlightened". For example, in virtually any futuristic sci-fi movie or series, if religion is presented at all, it is always the earmark of a backwards, foolish society. Always. There are no critical arguments about first principles and necessary axioms in the media. There is a manipulation of sentiment and feeling by portraying sequences of imagery and text a certain way. This also reflects why our political landscape is the way it is. People in great numbers are not moved by critical thinking on the issues and facts, but rather by how information and imagery is manipulated to appeal to them emotionally.William J Murray
September 16, 2013
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WJM: We need to build ability to reason, drain the intensity and rage that warp judgement, and expose the cynically deceptive and destructive. Yes short quips, stories, vids and images are important but in the end PISTIS in its proper sense and rhetorical context is about soundly based conviction and trust that one is willing to act on. It so happens too that in counselling Timothy Paul uses this term in his reference to "continue in the things you have learned and become CONVINCED OF" KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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F/N: I will say this on KN's part, he comes closest to an attempt at civility at the TSZ thread I have seen so far. From my archival PDF (and I leave the annoying formatting that imposes as evidence): ______________ >> Kantian Naturalist on September 12, 2013 at 8:17 pm said: Returning to Lombrozo’s article — which occasioned the piece at Uncommon Descent — I can’t imagine that she would say that “charity” goes “all the way down,” so to speak, to include empirical matters of fact. When it comes to empirical matters of fact, including the highly generic statements of well-confirmed empirical theory, there is not much room for charity. About empirical matters of fact one can be wrong (as creationists are) or not even wrong (as ID proponents are). [--> KN, the FACT is that we cannot and have not observed the actual past of origins and are forced to inductively infer on signs. The further FACT is that FSCO/I exists as posts in this thread demonstrate as do the PCs we are using. It is a FACT that FSCO/I per billions of cases is a reliable sign of design. It is a FACT that life from the cell up is full of FSCO/I. It is a FACT that one is reasonable to take such as a basis for INFERRING inductively, that this is a sign of the design of life. It is a further FACT that in so inferring no appeal or assumption was made that has necessary roots in any religious tradition. It is also a FACT that one may reasonably infer from sign to causal process and observe that as designs reflect purposeful intelligence in action, a designer is the best explanation of an evident design, thus the evidence of design as process SUPPORTS the credibility of there being a designer of life. Onwards on similar cosmological evidence one may reasonably argue to the cosmos as designed and that this is best explained on and provides suppoer for a cosmological designer.] However, when it comes to considerably more metaphysical statements and principles — such as naturalism and theism — we are dealing with notions only tangentially connected (at best) with empirical matters of fact, and in that domain, charity is clearly the best policy. The much murkier cases, between the obviously empirical and the obviously metaphysical, are in the ethical and political domains. For example, think about folks who have religious objections to alternatives to abstinence-only sex education. It’s not really clear how the interests of public health are best balanced against the right to freedom from state interference in one’s private life. But at least some charity towards one’s opponents, and not demonizing the other side, would go a long way. [--> KN, you are acting in the face of a slander and hate fest any you failed to directly confront it. Indeed you seem unhappy but intimidated and try hints at an unrelated matter. Remember, this is a case of false accusation of fraud and of totalitarian intent, in words that are a code for accusation of nazism in effect. I think it is fair and well merited comment for me to say here, not good enough. Please do better next time.]>> ________________ Sad. KFkairosfocus
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