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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
tjguy: I'm not O'Hare's son. I've never read the Bible. Bruce David said:
However, in a war of ideas, truth is the most powerful weapon there is. It often takes time to manifest its power, however.
That's a fine, faith-based spiritual sentiment, but there's a reason that nobody tries to sell you anything by telling you the truth. There's a reason that news outlets and academia and political parties don't attempt to win your vote with the truth. There's a reason that the entertainment media doesn't try to get our money by telling us the truth. Identifying emotionally with a product, idea or group, either positively or negatively, is the most powerful tool in the war on ideas. "Truth" has become a disinformation-buried, relativistic commodity in this postmodern world of imagery and terminology manipulation.
What exactly do you hope to gain by rudeness, invective, slander, and ad hominem? How do you imagine that that kind of “weapon” will gain any traction in a war of ideas? Whom are you going to convince with such tactics?
Low-information people that think with their emotions. They can be turned in the right direction, but "the truth", for them, is only what is emotionally compelling. That is why good people can be swayed into doing and supporting bad things; it is made emotionally compelling, and they lack the critical reasoning skills to see through such manipulations. A good rhetorical sound bite or t-shirt slogan, or a good movie with a theme of good character, can do far, far more than any critical reasoning and foray into "truth".William J Murray
September 16, 2013
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Tell you what guys. Let me propose an experiment. I suggest all Marxists, Darwinists, materialists, anti-theists, civilization-destroyers, hate-filled swine, useful idiots (have I missed anyone who might not fit the ID paradigm) all stop posting here, say for the next month? Let’s see what happens.
Count me in -- I'm tired of trying to be where I'm clearly not wanted.Kantian Naturalist
September 16, 2013
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TJGUY It's personal testimony, The day I called out to Jesus and he responded in a manner that could not have been by chance, luck or coincidence. On that day I accepted Jesus as my savior.Andre
September 16, 2013
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Gregory needs to take serious stock, to see to what extent he has become a fellow traveller with evil and/or what Lenin called a useful idiot.kairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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F/N 2: I need to add for record, from my remarks on alleged right wing theocratic fascism here, some notes on fascism's true nature. In so doing, let me openly confess my bias: anti-fascism is my FIRST political commitment, from childhood, literally absorbed at my mother's knee, with commitment to truly democratic historic Christian Civilisation inspired by the sentiments in the US Declaration of Independence a close second. Third, comes a commitment to principled reformation in light of the pervasive moral hazards of finite, fallible, morally fallen/struggling, too often ill willed human beings and institutions shaped by such, and of sound principles of sustainability informed by worldview issues, the Kantian Categorical Imperative influenced by the Golden Rule and the principle of legitimacy in government committed to the defence of the civil peace of justice. (And as I recall, in my boyhood, when we played at soldiers or drew battlefield sketches, the enemy were always nazis, complete with swastikas -- and of course in our boyhood imaginations they always lost.) However, I believe on serious investigation long since passing 10,000 pp of serious readings over the years, that the following (written in warning to Caribbean people in concern over the idolatry of statist political messianism)is fully justified:
[on evidence summarised and linked] let no one even dare to begin to suggest that Hitler was anything more or less than a plainly demonic false political messiah who led his deluded followers into unspeakable evil. We need to understand this, we need to allow it to burn deep into our consciousness, to see just how dangerous and destructive political messianism -- a species of idolatry that, frankly, too many in the Caribbean are peculiarly vulnerable to -- and the notion of a man of destiny who can save us from all our ills are. So, any time we form an undue emotional bond to a politician, or think he is the only one who can save our community from its ills, or mindlessly mouth his or his spin-meisters' talking points, or see him as though he can do no wrong, we are in danger of disloyalty to the true and living God. Not to mention, of doing a lot of harm to our community, for such a politician is almost certainly a political con-man and snake-oil cure-all salesman or worse. (And if you hear in my directness, concern that we have too often been victimised by such charming, glib-tongued deceivers here in the Caribbean, yes, it is there. In fact, I have a deeper worry, our vulnerability to outright fascism.) Fascism. Right wing fanaticism! I hear someone: "Of course that is really dangerous, but we are not going to be taken in by such, especially those silly fundy TV preachers and their fleeced, mindless flocks! Not to mention the right-wing politicians who prey on them!" That sentiment brings out my precise concern. First, are you aware that the founder figure of modern Fascism -- he was trying to become a modern Caesar -- was a leading socialist in Italy, who then took on the focus on nationalism that led to his identity politics? [Cf. Steele's summary here.] Are you aware of the statism -- utter dominance of the state in political and community life -- that is pivotal to fascism from its roots? Let me cite Mussolini's words: "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State." And, let me add (April 28, 2013) this from Hitler in a May day Speech, May 1, 1927: [picture, with the words in part: "We are Socialists . . . and we are all determined to destroy [Capitalist systems] under all conditions"] . . . . Boiling down: Fascism is an irrational -- hysterical and brainwashed -- cultic political reaction to difficult circumstances, manifested in worship of the state as saviour of the dominant "victim group", multiplied by blind loyalty to the projected political messiah and usually intensified by the focussing of "legitimised" hate, slander and blame on designated scapegoat groups and individuals. If we look hard in the mirror, too often -- if we are honest, we will recognise ourselves in this summary. The solution to this, first, is to identify political messianism as idolatry. Putting the state, glib-tongued politicians and their real or imagined powers in the place of loyalty and devotion that belong only to God. Then, we need to repent. After that, we can set about truly sustainable development, in light of good and sound participative democratic and just government and sound community life, with an economy that is built on a solid education system and finding a way to compete effectively in targetted markets that suit our resources and capabilities.
In this context, the smears that have been used to try to label me or invidiously associate me with nazism are not only ill informed slanders, they are deeply offensive expressions of contemptible bigotry fully equivalent to racism, and of disrespect to the point of being a mortal insult. One who resorts to or endorses such needs to know that such crosses the line of civility and for cause will be taken as a declaration of hate-driven enmity on his or her part. Now, I am a Christian, and am duty-bound to remember in all things, that those on the other side, however warped by sin, are made in God's image also. I have a duty of that basic respect called neighbour love. At the same time, I have the same duty of care towards those who the nihilists resorting to such smears would mislead and poison. So, I have the duty of the shepherd, to act in defence from the wolf, overt or hidden under the skin of some poor sheep who trusted only to learn the hard way what happens when one is naive about wolves. Fair warning. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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“If you haven’t got any charity in your heart, you have the worst kind of heart trouble.” – Bob Hope “Having leveled my palace, don’t erect a hovel and complacently admire your own charity in giving me that for a home.” – Emily Bronte “I’m very much a Christian in ideals and ethics, especially in terms of belief in fairness, a deep set obligation to others, and the virtues of charity, tolerance and generosity that we associate with traditional Christian teaching.” – E. O. Wilson “Charity. To love human beings in so far as they are nothing. That is to love them as God does.” – Simone WeilGregory
September 16, 2013
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F/N: Methinks AF and ilk at and around TSZ, would do well to heed the following bit of hard-bought wisdom from a piece of classical literature they so patently despise:
Isa 5:18 ????????Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, who draw sin as with cart ropes, . . . 20 ????????Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 ????????Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight! 22 ????????Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, 23 ????????who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! [ESV]
A word to the wise, or at least, those who have hopes of being wise. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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AF: One last time, your evidence and reasoning to back up the sort of grave accusations you have endorsed in 69 above in this thread, is: __________________ on grounds ___________________. Kindly fill in. In addition, you have plainly falsely pretended — thus, another false accusation — that I have not listed the specific points of concern and have not pointed to the source, even in the context where you have tried to justify those accusations by appealing to smears against the Wedge document so called, and to Bush/Blair hate derangement syndrome. SHAME ON YOU. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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F/N 2: Let me cite the in-brief -- details are linked onwards --response of DI CSC tot he pattern of smears we are seeing: ____________ >> The Truth About Discovery Institute's Center for Science & Culture By: Staff Discovery Institute February 3, 2006 [--> Note, longstanding, so objectors like AF should have taken reckoning of the substance of the below long since before spreading grave false accusations] Misinformation and mischaracterization are rampant in the media coverage of the debate over evolution. Because Discovery Institute’s views and positions recently have been inaccurately reported, and because Discovery Fellows have been maligned in the media in the past, over the past few years we have published a number of Truth Sheets to set the record straight. We have gathered all of these Truth Sheets here to make it easy for the public to learn the truth about the Institute, its Fellows and the work it supports. For answers to Frequently Asked Questions about the Institute, the Center for Science & Culture, and its positions on issues related to the debate over evolution click here. The Truth About Critical Analysis of Evolution Overview:A favorite Darwinist conspiracy theory is to claim that education policies requiring critical analysis of evolution are simply a guise for teaching intelligent design (ID) [--> or Creationism typically conflated with design, in another manifestation of malice aforethought] . For example, Professor Patricia Princehouse was quoted saying “critical analysis is intelligent design relabeled, just as intelligent design was creationism relabeled.” This truth sheet provides five solids reasons why teaching critical analysis of evolution is very different from teaching about intelligent design. Does intelligent design postulate a “supernatural creator?” Overview:No. The ACLU, and many of its expert witnesses, have alleged that teaching the scientific theory of intelligent design (ID) is unconstitutional in all circumstances because it posits a “supernatural creator.” Here we provide several actual statements from intelligent design theorists that the scientific theory of intelligent design does not address metaphysical and religious questions such as the nature or identity of the designer. [--> Just as we can infer arson on evidence of arson as process without knowing a specific arsonist, one can infer design on empirically tested reliable signs of design.] The Positive Case for Design Overview:Many critics of intelligent design have argued that design is merely a negative argument against evolution. This could not be further from the truth. Leading design theorist William Dembski has observed that “[t]he principle characteristic of intelligent agency is directed contingency, or what we call choice.” This brief piece shows that observing the sorts of choices that intelligent agents commonly make when designing systems, a positive case for intelligent design is easily constructed by elucidating predictable, reliable indicators of design. Six Myths About the Evolution Debate. Overview: Across the United States the debate over how to teach evolution is reaching a fevered pitch. Newspapers are daily reporting on one aspect or another of whether to teach evolution, whether to teach criticisms of evolution or even whether to teach alternatives such as the emerging theory of intelligent design. In the midst of all this reporting several misconceptions seemed to have caught on and continue to be repeated with little regard for truth or accuracy. Here are six of the most popular myths debunked. Discovery Institute and "Theocracy". Overview: Periodically certain Darwinists make false and unsubstantiated claims that Discovery Institute advocates “theocracy” or is part of the “radical Christian right” or supposedly supports something called “Christian reconstructionism.” These charges are little more than smears, and they show the bankruptcy of the Darwinists’ own position. Rather than argue about the substance of the scientific debate over neo-Darwinism, all Darwinists can do is engage in baseless ad hominem attacks. The “Wedge Document”: How Darwinist Paranoia Fueled an Urban Legend. Overview: In 1999 someone posted on the internet an early fundraising proposal for Discovery Institute’s Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture. Dubbed the “Wedge Document,” this proposal soon took on a life of its own, popping up in all sorts of places and eventually spawning what can only be called a giant urban legend. Among true-believers on the Darwinist fringe the document came to be viewed as evidence for a secret conspiracy to fuse religion with science and impose a theocracy. These claims were so outlandish that for a long time we simply ignored them. But because some credulous Darwinists seem willing to believe almost anything, we decided we should set the record straight. For a more detailed response please read "The Wedge Document: So What?". [--> Go here for this smear rebuttal document; until the specific rebuttals in it are adequately answered, we can dismiss those repeating smears as irresponsible. And Wikipedia or the like do not count as adequate responses. In addition, the pivotal issue for science is the empirical evidence and inductive logic behind the design inference, notice, not one of the ever so hot objectors has taken on the summary I gave in 40 above. All of these are little more than red herrings led out to strawmen soaked in toxic ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse polarise and poison the atmosphere.] Discussions about how evolution should be covered in school curricula should focus on science and evidence, not on personal attacks. Unfortunately, when you try to improve the teaching of evolution in your school district, groups opposed to teaching any criticisms of evolutionary theory may attack your motives, your sources, and your honesty. They may also seek to smear the personal characters of leading scientists who are skeptical of neo-Darwinism. This has happened to Dr. Jonathan Wells repeatedly. Here are some resources for responding to some of most common attacks you may encounter: The Real Truth about Jonathan Wells: Responding to Smears against the Author of Icons of Evolution. Overview: Since the publication of Icons of Evolution (2000), biologist Jonathan Wells has been subjected to a smear campaign by Darwin-only lobbyists, who have attacked everything from Dr. Wells’s integrity as a scholar to his personal religious beliefs. This fact sheet rebuts some of the most outrageous smears. Alan Gishlick and National Center for Science Education (NCSE) Misrepresent Jonathan Wells’s Science Credentials. Overview: In 2002, NCSE Officials Kevin Padian and Alan Gishlick misrepresented Jonathan Wells’s science credentials, and they still refuse to correct the record. In The Quarterly Review of Biology (March, 2002), National Center for Science Education (NCSE) officials Kevin Padian and Alan Gishlick published false and defamatory information about Jonathan Wells’s science credentials. Although Padian and Gishlick have been presented with documentation about their false claims, they still refuse to correct the record. The NCSE Uses a “Push Poll” to Discredit Discovery Institute’s Bibliography. Overview: In 2002, Discovery Institute prepared for the Ohio State Board of Education a bibliography of 44 peer-reviewed science journal articles written by evolutionists that discussed unresolved questions about various aspects of neo-Darwinism. In response, the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) surveyed the authors of the articles and purported to show that Discovery Institute had misrepresented the articles. In fact, the NCSE was the one engaging in misrepresentation. Its so-called “survey” completely mischaracterized the Institute’s bibliography, and it failed to substantiate the charge that the bibliography was inaccurate. How the NCSE Uses False Charges of “Misquotation” to Stifle Scientific Debate. Overview: Like the boy that cried “Wolf!,” the National Center for Science Education (NSCE) and its supporters repeatedly charge that scientists affiliated with Discovery Institute misquote or otherwise misrepresent the research of evolutionary biologists. On closer inspection, however, these charges turn out to be groundless. They are an intimidation tactic employed by the NCSE to stifle legitimate scientific debate over neo-Darwinism. If the NCSE wants to be taken seriously, it should stop inventing false charges of misquotation and start answering the arguments offered by Darwin’s scientific critics. Letters of Doctoral Support for Icons of Evolution Overview: In the midst of the Texas State Board of Education’s review of classroom biology textbooks in 2003, Jonathan Wells’ Icons of Evolution was distributed across the state, exposing the false evidence that these textbooks contained. Encouraging the board to present Icons of Evolution in the classroom, these letters from Dr. Dean H. Kenyon, Dr. Marvin J. Fritzler, and Dr. Paul K. Chien addressed to the Texas Board of Education demonstrate their doctoral approval of the book. The ACLU’s Selective and One-Sided Advocacy: Ignoring Biology Textbooks that Promote Philosophical Materialism Overview: The ACLU is quick to file lawsuits to censor scientific evidence that they think advances theistic religious viewpoints in schools. Yet they selectively ignore the explicit promotion of philosophical materialism included in textbooks around the nation. Though even leading Darwinists admit that philosophical materialism constitutes a religious viewpoint, this sheet lists many instances of promoting philosophical materialism in textbooks. Why doesn’t the ACLU file lawsuits against using these textbooks? The ACLU’s Selective and One-Sided Advocacy: Ignoring Biology Textbooks that Disparage Intelligent Design Overview: The ACLU challenged a biology textbook that presents intelligent design favorably as a scientific theory as unconstitutional, claiming it represents an “inherently religious view.” Constitutional law states requires the “principal or primary effect” of a law “must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion.” (Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 612 (19971).). Why does the ACLU selectively challenge only textbooks that favorably discuss intelligent design yet never file lawsuits that bash what they consider to be a religious viewpoint? Their hypocrisy reveals their true intention: not to protect religious rights, but to censor evidence that challenges evolution. Secular Purposes for Teaching about Intelligent Design Overview: Teaching students about intelligent design can serve many genuine secular purposes in the science classroom. This list of reasons to teach intelligent design extends from informing students of competing scientific ideas, to developing critical thinking skills, to ultimately enhancing the effectiveness of science instruction. Alan Gishlick and National Center for Science Education (NCSE) Misrepresent Jonathon Wells’s Science Credentials Overview: In The Quarterly Review of Biology (March, 2002), National Center for Science Education (NCSE) officials Kevin Padian and Alan Gishlick published false and defamatory information about Jonathan Wells’s science credentials. Although Padian and Gishlick have been presented with documentation about their false claims, they still refuse to correct the record. Should we Teach Criticisms of Neo-Darwinism? Many Authorities say YES! Overview: Should schools teach students about both scientific strengths and weaknesses of Neo-Darwinism? Authorities ranging from U.S. Congress, to the U.S. Supreme Court, to the U.S. Department of Education and many State Department of Educations say YES—you can and should teach about problems with Darwin! According to authorities listed here, even Charles Darwin himself would support teaching about scientific criticisms of Neo-Darwinism. Have Design Proponents "Invented" Terms about "Darwinism"? Overview: Some critics have accused intelligent design proponents of inventing terms such as “Darwinism,” or “Darwinist”. The reality is that these terms are commonly used by mainstream scientists in the scientific literature - often exclusively to describe evolutionists when combating a pejoratively used term which they nearly exclusively use: “anti-evolutionism.” Below are results of searches of leading journals revealing the common usage of these terms in the mainstream scientific literature. FAQ about the New Kansas Science Standards Overview: Adopted in November 8, 2005, the Kansas State Science Standards incorporated critical analysis of evolution into the curriculum and teach students about both scientific strengths and weaknesses of Neo-Darwinism. As this FAQ explains, the standards to not teach intelligent design, and answer numerous questions such as “What is the scientific basis for the changes?” or “How do parents want evolution taught?” This document also responds to circulating criticisms and misinformation on the decision to adopt these science standards. State Science Standard Language on Evolution Overview:This list compiles direct quotes from several state science standards on the topic of evolution. Many states specifically outline a requirement of student critique and evaluation of the scientific supporting or challenging data for evolution. More than just encouraging analysis, these standards emphasize exposing weaknesses and challenging the generally accepted theory. For daily coverage of how the media reports on the debate over evolution please visit our blog, Evolution News & Views at www.evolutionnews.org. >> ____________ In short, we see ideological accusations not serious and sober discussion, now being openly endorsed by AF. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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words from KF but still no response to my simple question. Kairosfocus! What exactly is it you claim is slanderous at TSZ? Please be specific.Alan Fox
September 16, 2013
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F/N: Onlookers needing a reference for corrections on the Wedge document smears, should cf here. Until and unless AF can show specific cause why the corrections there to commonly circulated accusations do not stand, we can disregard the accusations premised on that longstanding slander, as more of the same coming from an enabler of hate and slander fests. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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AF: Your evidence and reasoning to back up the sort of grave accusations you have endorsed in 69 above in this thread, is: __________________ on grounds ___________________. Kindly fill in. In addition, you have plainly falsely pretended -- thus, another false accusation -- that I have not listed the specific points of concern and have not pointed to the source, even in the context where you have tried to justify those accusations by appealing to smears against the Wedge document so called, and to Bush/Blair hate derangement syndrome. SHAME ON YOU. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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AF, the wedge docume4nt has been twisted into a smear by activists acting in accord with Alinskyite tactics, as has long since been shown on record that you should have accessed if you were at all responsible. As to debates on Bible believing Christians being in the main supporters of the republican party int he US that has utterly nothing to do with the design inference, and it has nothing to do with the scientific evidence that points strongly to design in the world of life and the cosmos in light of standard inductive reasoning. Bush/Blair Derangement Syndrome -- itself a fever swamp hate and slander fest phenomenon -- does not constitute a justification for false accusations of scientific fraud, of neo-nazism, of intent to impose a tyranny rooted in some imagined magisterium or inquisition and the like. But it does reveal the smug sophomoric arrogance and supercilious sneering that seem to drive your ideology. FYI, Dawkins' assertion that those who differ with him are ignorant, stupid insane or wicked is arrant foolishness, a case of ignorant conceit and ill-bred contempt for others. SHAME ON YOU. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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AF: Let me just put it this way, you are now at strike two, and need to show good cause for endorsing the accusations at TSZ, or be openly revealed as an enabler and endorser of slander. KF
What exactly is it you claim is slanderous at TSZ? Please be specific.Alan Fox
September 16, 2013
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AF: Your evidence and reasoning to back up the sort of grave accusations you have endorsed in 69 above in this thread, is: __________________ on grounds ___________________. Kindly fill in. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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Notice, right from the beginning, I have listed the claims being made in the slander and hate fest at TSZ (in a thread that may easily be seen there, a thread I have archived for reference).
Where? And you have to justify statements are slanderous. I have read the wedge document. The alliance between the fundamentalist Christian sects and the Republican party was all too clear at GWB's non-election.Alan Fox
September 16, 2013
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AF: Let me just put it this way, you are now at strike two, and need to show good cause for endorsing the accusations at TSZ, or be openly revealed as an enabler and endorser of slander. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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Onlookers: Notice, right from the beginning, I have listed the claims being made in the slander and hate fest at TSZ (in a thread that may easily be seen there, a thread I have archived for reference). AF's pretence that I am not being specific [and so am dubious] and/or that I have no grounds to object to the assertions in the hate fest, which he has been repeating drumbeat style is false, and he knows or should know it to be false. That is, this is a big lie drummed out repeatedly to create the false impression of truth. AF's enabling is on further display, to the detriment of any shreds of credibility he may have left. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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Mr Fox: As one consequence of your enabler status, you have decisively undermined the presumption of truthfulness or at least sincerity in your remarks. Inter alia, that means that the burden of proof lies on you to show -- despite your low credibility status -- show on solid and independent evidence -- that the design theory movement as a whole is a fraud, perpetrated by theocratic, neo-nazi right wing radicals [that itself is a major blunder on what nazism and fascism historically and ideologically are, onlookers . . . rooted in Stalin's propaganda] intent on creating a religious tyranny, and that the design inference has no merit on principles of induction and a historically and philosophically justified understanding of science and its methods to the point where it is not merely controversial or potentially false (many scientific claims are like that or have been like that including quantum theory and relativity) but willful fraud. While such smears are all too common, onlookers, they are ill founded as can be easily learned. AF is in a position where he knows this or full well SHOULD know this, but for reasons of supporting the amoral, nihilism enabling ideology of evolutionary materialism, has chosen to support smears. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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KF:
Mr Fox: You have just removed all doubts as to your status as a “good cop” enabler and ENDORSER of the hate, lying and slander fest now in progress at TSZ. That removes you from the circle of civil discussion. GEM of TKI
Another non-answer. What exactly is it you claim is slanderous at TSZ? Please be specific.Alan Fox
September 16, 2013
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We owe them no seat at the table of UD, nor IMO should we allow that ilk here. TSZ is nothing but a pitiful collection of anti-theistic, hate-filled swine run by a clever, polite enabler of civilization-destroying marxist, materialist darwinism. Even if a few are only useful idiots parroting nihilistic propaganda, we shouldn't tolerate the persistent nonsense Neil, Alan and others keep spreading here.
What purple prose! Tell you what guys. Let me propose an experiment. I suggest all Marxists, Darwinists, materialists, anti-theists, civilization-destroyers, hate-filled swine, useful idiots (have I missed anyone who might not fit the ID paradigm) all stop posting here, say for the next month? Let's see what happens. Nullasalus may remember a blog called Telic Thoughts. It used to be quite a lively place for discussion, front-loader Mike Gene and a few other articulate ID proponents raised the level of discourse and brought in anti-ID commenters from the scientific community. Discussion was generally civilized and interesting. Incompetent moderation drove away all regular dissenters and Telic Thoughts is now defunct. So, calling all ID skeptics! Join me in an experiment. WJM says "We owe you no seat at the table of UD". Let's all agree to this polite request and leave UD to it's own devices.Alan Fox
September 16, 2013
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Mr Fox: You have just removed all doubts as to your status as a "good cop" enabler and ENDORSER of the hate, lying and slander fest now in progress at TSZ. That removes you from the circle of civil discussion. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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MF: With all due respect, given your intersection with TSZ and the slander, lying and hate fest now in progress, before anything else, you now need to convince us you are not simply a "good cop" enabler of fever swamp hysterical hate, slander and lying. Do, let us know what specific practical steps you have taken in recent days to correct or at least firmly protest and dissociate yourself from what is happening in the hate fest thread: ____________________ . Failing that, we have every right to conclude that you are little more than an enabler of nihilistic Alinskyite agit-prop, and to regard everything you say as part of a strategy summed up by that Machiavellian agitator as follows:
"The end is what you want, the means is how you get it. Whenever we think about social change, the question of means and ends arises. The man of action views the issue of means and ends in pragmatic and strategic terms. He has no other problem; he thinks only of his actual resources and the possibilities of various choices of action. He asks of ends only whether they are achievable and worth the cost; of means, only whether they will work. ... The real arena is corrupt and bloody." p.24 RFR "The first step in community organization is community disorganization. The disruption of the present organization is the first step toward community organization. Present arrangements must be disorganized if they are to be displace by new patterns.... All change means disorganization of the old and organization of the new." p.116, RFR [Rules of action] 3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.) 4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity." 5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." . . . . 13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'... "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...' "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other." [pp. 127 - 134, RFR]
If you show yourself to be either a "good cop" enabler of or "bad cop" overt participant in such tactics, we have a right to view you as the moral equivalent of an outlaw; one who preys on civility in order to destroy its framework and replace it with the sort of amoral, nihilistic barbarism that destroys the civil peace of justice and sets up target groups for systematic harassment, oppression or worse, much much worse. Let me put my declaration regarding the sort of tactics that are already in play by fellow traveller radicals on the table, in light of the point that the stickup artist who points a gun at my head and says your money or your life threatens both:
He who would rob me of my livelihood . . . threatens my life; He who would rob me of my conscience . . . threatens my soul: He who would rob me of my children . . . threatens my posterity.
So, your lame excuse that a lot of Internet debates show incivility cuts no ice. Especially when your ilk -- and yes the fever swamp bigots are plainly your chosen ilk -- are showing themselves to be in service to amoral nihilism, and in thralldom to the precursor to violence, hate. When wolf packs are known to be roaming, we have every right to act in defence of the sheep, the sheep fold and the pasture. In particular if what seems to be a sheep shows itself a wolf hiding under sheep's clothing, by wolfish tactics, there is a right of reasonable self protection and defence of the civil peace of justice. For instance, the fever swamp activists have long had an agenda of disruption of discussion here at UD. It is reasonable in defence that if a commenter behaves uncivilly or disruptively and in an evidently incorrigible manner -- I am not here talking about those who are trying but occasionally fall off the wagon -- then the same tactics that protect the classroom are in order. Out you go to the principal's office, and if necessary, out you go from the school. And no, despite cynical lies to the contrary, that is not "censorship." Censorship is what is happening as we speak at BSU, where a course advocating atheism and using atheistical propaganda has free course but a professor who dared to explore the limits of science through a discussion based seminar and proved sympathetic to ID has been issued a gag order by the president of the institution on instigation of an atheist activist group. And, can you kindly tell me what you and your ilk, being professed to be zealous, have done about such cases of censorship: _______________ So, while it is plain that I have points at difference with WJM in the OP and otherwise, it should be equally plain that reasonable steps must be taken in defence of civil discussion. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
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I asked KF What exactly is it you claim is slanderous at TSZ? Please be specific. KF responds with the non-answer:
AF: You know or easily should know EXACTLY what has been done, just where and why my summary above is accurate. Shame on you for further enabling of smears. KF
It is precisely that I strongly doubt that there is anything slanderous at TSZ that I ask you to make clear what words or comment you are referring to. What exactly is it you claim is slanderous at TSZ? Please be specific.Alan Fox
September 16, 2013
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I suggest that we get pasted because we deserve to get pasted. Perhaps not in the nasty vitriolic way that often happens, but that is the way the other side play. If we want to be respected then we need to up our game and start contributing to the culture. I believe it was William Lane Craig who pointed out that Jews have contributed more to science in the USA than Evangelicals. What are their relative population percentages I wonder? Speaking as an Evangelical, I say that we need 10x or even 100x the current number of Evangelical scientists in the USA and around the world. But we are too busy entertaining ourselves, watching stupid movies, indulging in the Godless entertainment culture, and wasting our lives. We are asleep in the light, and our churches are full of dumb leaders and dumb youth leaders that have little idea about intellectual engagement. (A book came out about 2 years ago demonstrating the pathetic amount of time given to science in youth group and church studies, drawing upon around 1,200 Evangelical and Catholics young people). As I said, we get what we deserve.Christian-apologetics.org
September 16, 2013
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WJM what are you trying to achieve through this war? Virtually all internet debate includes large chunks of acrimonious personal abuse. It hardly matters what the subject is - gun control, climate change, economics, or who is the best football team. I happen to think Lizzie does an extraordinary job of limiting it on TSZ. Nevertheless it happens there and it happens a lot right here on UD (I have just accepted that I will be called stupid, without morals, dishonest, and holding similar views to a mass-murderer). You can become part of it if it gives you some kind of emotional satisfaction but it is not going to enlighten you or anyone else and I can't see what else it is going to do for you. It is also naive to suppose that anyone is going to change their mind on the spot as a result of rational arguments. However, * they might turn it over in their mind and come to a different conclusion later. * someone else might follow the discussion and change their mind * you might learn to refine your own thoughts and express them more clearly (I certainly have) But none of this is going to happen if you engage in a war of words. It is just hot air. Or are you thinking of moving from a war or words to something more physical?Mark Frank
September 16, 2013
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@62 Andre Andre, what did convince you not only that God exists, but that Jesus died for you? What did convince you to give your life to Him? Just curious.tjguy
September 15, 2013
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@61 Bruce said:
However, in a war of ideas, truth is the most powerful weapon there is. It often takes time to manifest its power, however. What exactly do you hope to gain by rudeness, invective, slander, and ad hominem? How do you imagine that that kind of “weapon” will gain any traction in a war of ideas? Whom are you going to convince with such tactics?
Well said! For the most parts, those tactics simply make the opposition angrier and more hateful. The Bible says "A soft answer turns away wrath." It also tells us to "speak the truth in love." Neither of these were taught by Jesus, but are moral principles taught in the Bible. Jesus publicly scourged the Pharisees at times for their hypocrisy, but this was righteous anger. Calling them out on their hypocrisy is fine, but our motive, as believers, should be to show them grace, Christ's love, and the difference that Jesus makes in a person's life. There are times I'd like to do the same thing, but it would be wrong for me to do that.tjguy
September 15, 2013
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@WJM:
tjguy: I call myself a rational theist. No, I don’t believe in forgiveness of sin, but then how I see “what sin is” is probably different from what Christians think. IMO, it’s not something that can be “forgiven” – even by god.
Mr. Murray, how do you even know what sin is if you don’t believe the Bible? Do you make up your own definition for sin? It seems like you do from what you say here. How do you know your definition of sin is right, if it even exists?
I believe that no one escapes the consequences of their intent; not of their actions, but of their intent. Applying the methodology of one’s opponent is not the same as adopting their intent…. But while I’m here, I play to win, not to score style points or make it look to others as if I’m a good guy. I don’t care if onlookers think I’m a bad guy as long as what I do services the good.
OK, so you agree with Jesus that motive is important. But does that mean that only our intent matters or that our actions do not matter at all? I don’t think so. You are advocating the end justifies the means. So, for Muslims who kill to advance the cause of Islam, how could you condemn that? Their intent is good in their eyes, is it not? Who determines what qualifies as a legitimate intent?
I’m not worried about the war because, at the end of the day, the afterlife is more my true home than this world.
How do you know there is an afterlife? How do you know where you will spend the afterlife? If you don’t believe the Bible, where do you come up with your personal views? It seems like you reject Jesus’ teaching on the afterlife, so how did you arrive at your own views?
However, I believe each of us has certain abilities and talents and limitations; we all can only do what we can do, as we can do it. If others are compelled to play nice by their perspective, that’s fine by me, but I’m still going to be making a case, for those that are willing, to take it to the streets – so to speak.
That’s your prerogative of course. I don’t think it will help. Stooping to their level, even if it wins you a few battles, is not worth it in the end in my view, but we will just have to agree to disagree. If I were not a Christian, I’m sure I would feel as you. Sometimes actually I do “feel” like you do. We all do. We all get frustrated, but that is where our moral standards impact how we act, what and why and how we say things, etc. If your standards are different, then certainly your methods will differ. I just don’t think those methods are fitting for people who represent Jesus in this world. Evidently, you do not see yourself as such a person, so that explains your opinion. I thought though that you wrote a book entitled “My Life Without God”. That sure makes it sound as though you became a follower of Jesus. How can you look at Jesus as a Great Teacher and Moral Leader and yet reject His teachings? Was He lying? Was He deceived? Maybe you think He never said those things? But all the disciples obviously believed he did and they gave their lives to follow Him. If He hadn’t said them, they would have known it. If following Jesus and spreading his “false” teaching meant that they would suffer greatly, do you think they would really have done that? Sorry. I don’t know exactly what you believe about Jesus, but from the reviews of this book, like this one, it sure makes it seem as if you are a Christian.
Atheist Madalyn O'Hair's son recounts his turbulent childhood, his search for truth and subsequent commitment to Christ. Bill shares how God's love helped him cope with his family's disappearance and tragic deaths.
tjguy
September 15, 2013
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I became a Christian 3 years ago; and this is what I've learned.... 1.) The most important part about Christianity is belief, then behavior, as you know saved by grace (belief) not by works (behavior). Grace (belief) however compels us to do good (behavior) because it does please our Father. Now to my point; No amount of nice talk, bad talk, fighting, loving or any type of convincing no matter the tactic will work unless there is belief. I was once an unbeliever and I remember the way I treated those that was ignorant and idiotic in their beliefs of the bib sky daddy. Not a single theist no matter how hard they tried could convince me of God's existence, not even the evidence could do that! Whether you are a Christian or not the best advice on this matter you could ever receive comes from Peter... 1 Peter 3:15 "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."Andre
September 15, 2013
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