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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
EL, Rubbish, in one word. The design hyp is a straightforward application of inductive logic on inferring per like causes like, and it is not scientific fraud. ID is not remotely equal to Creationism as the Creationists admit by opposing it as refusing to use scripture as the basis for science. There is no grand ID conspiracy to subvert science and turn our civilisation into a nazi-like tyrannical theocracy. Those who push such are either crazies like 9/11 truthers or are cynically slanderous. In either case this is bigotry and slander. Your hosting ant attempts to pretend that slander are part of dialogue are outright cases of enabling of fraud and you know it or should know it. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Of course you don’t. No one really does, at least not in practice. You just have no convincing reason for believing otherwise.
I don't? Huh. And why is that, exactly? There are a couple of different arguments I've heard for this kind of assertion, and it's never been entirely clear to me just what the assertion is -- William has a doxastic version that seems a bit different from the epistemic and ontological versions I've also seen here and elsewhere. Presumably, the assertion is something like this:
There must be an absolute standard for there to be objective truth.
(William's doxastic version would be, "one must believe in an absolute standard in order to be reasonably entitled to believe in objective truth.") We can take for granted that everyone accepts in practice objective truth, in the sufficiently innocent sense that if I ask you, "is the door closed?", I am not asking for your opinion, but for your report on the fact of the matter -- whether or not the door is closed, and "the door is closed" is objectively true if the door is closed, and objectively false if it is not. Call this "anodyne objectivity". So the questions then would be, (1) is there a sense of "objective truth" more demanding or substantive than anodyne objectivity?; (2) do science, philosophy, logic and mathematics, and ethics require anything more than anodyne objectivity, and (3) do we need to include any supernatural persons as supreme arbiters of truth in order to adequately account for anodyne objectivity or for whatever more demanding account of objective truth we end up with, if the answers to (1) and (2) are "yes"?Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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Except, of course, that I don’t believe that truth is subjective. You believe that I should, but I’ve given my argument in response — the one that hinges on the distinction between the objective and the absolute —
Redefining the term "objective" to include some aspects of what "subjective" means is only an argument a sophist would claim had any value; to then use that redefinition of terms to say "I don't believe that truth is subjective" under that condition is just self-deception. So let me ask you, under your conceptual framework, what gives you the right to assert that something I believe to be true, under my conceptual framework, is false? Is it necessarily false in both of our conceptual frameworks? Wouldn't you have to know how I evaluate the difference between true and false statements, and by what arbiting method, in order to assert that under my conceptual framework, those things are false? Or are you claiming that there exists something outside of conceptual frameworks that arbits true from false that we are both obligated to refer to whether we agree with it or not? Or are you just saying that what I say is false in your conceptual framework, but may be true in my conceptual framework?William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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KN: A lot of the accusation is based on twisting the so called wedge doc into pretzels --and i think AF is a part of that. Several times, the reply has been linked that corrects Ms Forrest's smear (and of others). Above there has been utterly no responsible response. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Liar. I have said that I choose my beliefs based on their utility to my purposes or goals
I am not a liar, William. It simply seems to me that if you base your belief on what suits you you are not basing your beliefs on what you believe to be true. After all, what it suits us to believe is not necessarily coterminous with truth. If there is some other way of interpreting your statement that you chose your beliefs on their usefulness to you, then try to explain it to me. Because I don't get it. Unless, for you, only the truth is useful. In which case, why not simply say you choose your beliefs on the basis of whether you think they are true?
Liar. I don’t declare the science part of any science argument stupid, but rather the irrational and unsupportable ideological inferences and conclusions contained in the “argument” portion of the debate. I don’t have to understand science in order to identify flaws in reasoning when one makes an argument about scientific data and what it implies.
I am not a liar William. You said, at 346 above:
The idea that “natural” and “random” forces (meaning undirected by foresighted intelligence) can create the most sophisticated, complex, interdependent code-based manufacturing and self-regulation system ever seen, and by chance generate novel, functional, integrated form and function that requires the spontaneous, happenstance generation of thousands of perfectly fitted parts and modifications to current architecture and code, is horrendously stupid. There is absolutely no reason in any of the data to think that unaided natural and chance interactions can spontaneously generate such things.
Looks like "the science part" to me.
I don’t ignore it. Just because there exist philosophical literature supporting a concept doesn’t mean it isn’t BS. You seem to think that as long as there is literature supporting an idea, it is necessary to accommodate it as valid or equal to any other idea in print.
No, it doesn't mean it isn't BS. But it does mean that there are powerful counter arguments to your position. And I have seen no evidence that you have addressed them anywhere.
As usual, you are mistaking a statement about what is a logically necessary conclusion of a premise for what people who identify themselves as believing that premise actually believe. None of my memes include the term “Darwinists” because self-identified “Darwinists” can and do hold all sorts of beliefs that are entirely irreconcilable (logically) with their fundamental premises. That’s why I didn’t say “Darwinists believe …” or “Atheists believe …” but rather “Darwinism is the belief ….” and “Atheism is the belief …”
I am making no such error, William. In any normal use of the terms, those statements are false. Atheism is simply lack of belief in god or gods. It is not the set of beliefs you say it is. That you think that lack of belief in god or gods, taken to its logical conclusion, would mean that that rape is whatever you think atheism entails that rape must be does not make atheism that belief. If you wrote: atheism, if true, it would mean that.... you might have a point, although you'd be wrong. As it does, you just have an untrue statement. Atheism may well be a set of contradictory beliefs. But it is not the belief that you say it is.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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KF: some people genuinely think, not without evidential support, that the link between Ahmanson and the DI, coupled concern about the Wedge document (which, frankly, the Wedge so What document doesn't really allay) does indicate at least a program to undermine science education. Not everyone shares that concern, but it is a genuine concern for some people. They are entitled to air it at TSZ, where it can be discussed, and indeed, counter-arguments proposed. Saying something that someone else believes to be unjustified and untrue is not slander. If it were, then UD would be inundated with suits from people who feel unjustly maligned. You need to step back, KF, and consider how things might look from another point of view than your own. I will not suppress views on TSZ just because you find them unfair.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Not only does William appear not to care about truth as is evident from the fact that he appears not to think that a propagandist has any responsibility to avoid being misleading,
I'm hardly concerned with how things "appear" to one as irrational as you.
but he has said that he thinks that belief is a matter of choice, rather than truth.
Liar. I have said that I choose my beliefs based on their utility to my purposes or goals and made no comment about beliefs in general other than to say that IMO most people do not choose their beliefs, and for those that do, most do not choose them rationally.
This is why I have found it so hard to actually engage with his arguments. He freely and commendably agrees that he does not have the scientific training to evaluate a scientific argument, yet is happy to declare it “stupid”.
Liar. I don't declare the science part of any science argument stupid, but rather the irrational and unsupportable ideological inferences and conclusions contained in the "argument" portion of the debate. I don't have to understand science in order to identify flaws in reasoning when one makes an argument about scientific data and what it implies.
And his insistence that atheists are either amoral or “intellectually dishonest” is at very best, disputable, and, frankly, in my view, simply wrong.
Liar. I've explicitly corrected you on this several times. I don't make cases about atheists, but about atheism. I've explicitly said that atheists can be as moral as anyone else. As far as I can remember, I've never claimed that atheists are as a group intellectually dishonest in any general way - I've perhaps made the case that they are about specific beliefs that are irreconcilable with atheism. I've explicitly stated that there have been atheistic philosophers that are intellectually honest about the logical ramifications of atheism.
Not only are atheists perfectly moral people (they have a concept of morality and try to do the right thing, like everyone else) but there is a vast and honorable philosophical literature on the rational basis of secular morality that William simply ignores.
I don't ignore it. Just because there exist philosophical literature supporting a concept doesn't mean it isn't BS. You seem to think that as long as there is literature supporting an idea, it is necessary to accommodate it as valid or equal to any other idea in print.
William’s blanket assertions about “Darwinists” therefore amount to an unsupported slur on an entire and substantial group of people who simply do not hold the beliefs he attributes to them.
As usual, you are mistaking a statement about what is a logically necessary conclusion of a premise for what people who identify themselves as believing that premise actually believe. None of my memes include the term "Darwinists" because self-identified "Darwinists" can and do hold all sorts of beliefs that are entirely irreconcilable (logically) with their fundamental premises. That's why I didn't say "Darwinists believe ..." or "Atheists believe ..." but rather "Darwinism is the belief ...." and "Atheism is the belief ..."
If KF is concerned with slander, I suggest he takes a good hard look at this thread.
The only "slander" here is you lying about what I have said to make it appear I have said things I have not, and in fact have directly corrected you about repeatdly, apparently in order to smear my character.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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Brent:
Of course no one feels ashamed for doing what they think is right. And, when they are shown that they in fact were wrong, there is still no need for shame. When they continue on, without retraction or altering course, however, they should then feel shame. If they do not, I suggest that charity would be to help them feel it.
You've excluded a middle there, Brent: the case where the person, having been given an argument as to why they were wrong, finds that argument unpersuasive. There is a real problem on this site with people failing to understand that people can honestly disagree.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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AF, we cannot help you if you refuse to admit the plain and patent often summarised truth that we can all see for ourselves. But we can note the significance of the attempt to pretend that wanton mass accusation of fraud and conspiracy without basis, and in the teeth of a cogent reply that is persistently ignored. In short, AF you are one of our good cop enablers working with the bad cops so all are in reality bad cops, AGAIN. The difference is last time around it was one person, but now it is all of us. AF obviously has no shame to enable bigotry. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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KN:
Except, of course, that I don’t believe that truth is subjective.
Of course you don't. No one really does, at least not in practice. You just have no convincing reason for believing otherwise.Phinehas
September 20, 2013
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Alan, KF is referring to the thread that connects the Discovery Institute to Christian Dominationism via Abramson. Seems pretty tenuous, if you ask me.Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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That is the context in which I have seen that we have enabling of slander and censorship, at TSZ and BSU respectively.
What slander at TSZ? You persist in this unwarranted claim without the least justification. What slander? Link and quote or have the decency to stop repeating this nonsense. Hope that helps.Alan Fox
September 20, 2013
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Of course no one feels ashamed for doing what they think is right. And, when they are shown that they in fact were wrong, there is still no need for shame. When they continue on, without retraction or altering course, however, they should then feel shame. If they do not, I suggest that charity would be to help them feel it.Brent
September 20, 2013
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We are just going to have to deal with the fact that, at bottom, the naturalist, materialist, atheists have decided that it is permissible to hold contradictory beliefs, even knowingly. There is no other explanation for their behavior. They seem to think that to deny a belief, A, is enough to excuse them, while every other belief they hold means necessarily that they must adhere to A. Point that out to them and they'll just say, "Well, I don't believe A." They just don't accept defeaters and necessary truths, period. (But surely they will post in response, "Of course we do.")Brent
September 20, 2013
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Onlookers, It may be hard to figure out what is going on. Observe, after 500+ comments. WJM put a controversial idea to fight fire with controlled counter fire. On the pro design side it was controversial and there is a debate motivated by concerns as to whether what WJM suggests is right. Now, all of this is in a context of an ongoing set of accusations of fraud and conspiracy to subvert our civilisation. Observe the other side. NONE are challenging the conspiracy theory, all are singing off the same hymn sheet that it is design thinkers who are blameworthy. The accusations -- and notice no sound substantiation when correction was put (and a repeated tip toe-game around it) are simply no worse than what ID people around UD routinely do. Which is simply not so. This off the same sheet is the signature of indoctrination in a party-line and its talking points and tactics. And especially where it is enabling and distracting from serious wrongdoing. And false accusation of a whole movement of fraud and subversion to impose totalitarian tyranny is serious wrongdoing. Imposing censorship in a uni which is supposedly a bastion of academic freedom is likewise soberingly wrong. Look above for a single clear repudiation from the objectors to ID. You will find none. But, how does it persuade? Simple, by making people too confused, suspicious or angry to think straight. And of course, we see the good cops busily enabling the bad cops. That is the context in which I have seen that we have enabling of slander and censorship, at TSZ and BSU respectively. Hope that helps. KFkairosfocus
September 20, 2013
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Not only does William appear not to care about truth as is evident from the fact that he appears not to think that a propagandist has any responsibility to avoid being misleading, but he has said that he thinks that belief is a matter of choice, rather than truth. This is why I have found it so hard to actually engage with his arguments. He freely and commendably agrees that he does not have the scientific training to evaluate a scientific argument, yet is happy to declare it "stupid". And his insistence that atheists are either amoral or "intellectually dishonest" is at very best, disputable, and, frankly, in my view, simply wrong. Not only are atheists perfectly moral people (they have a concept of morality and try to do the right thing, like everyone else) but there is a vast and honorable philosophical literature on the rational basis of secular morality that William simply ignores. William's blanket assertions about "Darwinists" therefore amount to an unsupported slur on an entire and substantial group of people who simply do not hold the beliefs he attributes to them. If KF is concerned with slander, I suggest he takes a good hard look at this thread.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Except, of course, that I don't believe that truth is subjective. You believe that I should, but I've given my argument in response -- the one that hinges on the distinction between the objective and the absolute -- to which your only response thus far has been to dismiss the entire enterprise of philosophizing as conceptual clarification and refinement.Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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But I guess it makes sense for a guy that seems to read countless books and articles to say that reading countless books and articles is the means by which one's commitment to the truth should be measured. In KN's world, reading countless books and articles is probably the decisive method by which all sorts of important things are measured.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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KN, Nothing more hilarious than someone for whom "truth" is a subjective commodity within variant, social constructs scolding someone about their lack of commitment to the truth.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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Brent, I feel shamed when I do things I am ashamed of. I feel no shame for doing what I think right. I would be ashamed if I did otherwise.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Oh, I don't doubt that you really do believe all those assertions about "atheism" and "Darwinism." I don't doubt your sincerity. But there's a difference between whether one considers one beliefs to be true, and whether ones beliefs are actually true. To care about the truth is to care about that difference. And, since all of those assertions are false, and have been shown to be false by Lizzie, and myself, and countless others in countless books, articles, etc. -- and since you can't even be bothered to read a single one of them -- that's what I mean by saying that you don't care about the truth -- not that you're being insincere, but that you can't be bothered to take the time to find out if you're right, because you are unshakably confident that you are.Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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One can use simple, truthful memes and imagery in a way that establishes an emotional reaction. I consider the memes I listed truthful, but I'm not going to make arguments for them here. I've already made arguments for most of them elsewhere.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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KN, You are wrong, and are entirely misrepresenting what I have said. I didn't say the culture war cannot be won by telling the truth. I didn't say that I don't care about telling the truth. I didn't say that I consider my memes untrue. What I said is that the culture war can be better fought by using better marketing and propaganda. I also corrected Liz on some of her misapprehensions about what propaganda is and whether or not I bear any onus to support that which I have only committed to as propaganda. But, I went ahead and supported it, because I do consider it true. I don't consider any of those memes ridiculous or untrue. I'll grant you that on occasion you have paraphrased me correctly before, but you are blindingly incorrect here. Also, there is a difference between the inane sophistry you spout (that, thankfully, most of the public is immune to) and using broad-brush memes with easily-understood, traditional concept and imageery to effectively market an idea to the public.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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*"what goal or purpose one is serving"William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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Well, if you don’t think that lying is wrong, I guess so.
Not all lying is wrong, IMO. Like most things, it depends on the intent and the circumstances, and especially what goal purpose is serving. However, I don't consider any of those memes lies.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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Lizzie, William seems to have decided that the culture war can't be won by telling the truth -- since, he reasons, if it could be won by telling the truth, it would have been won long ago (or perhaps not even started?). He's made it entirely clear that he thinks most people are swayed by emotion, not by logic or evidence. Given that (in my view, pessimistic and unwarranted assumption about human beings), and given that he cares about winning the war, if the culture war can be won for social conservatives/libertarians by making up all sorts of ridiculous claims about "Darwinism" or "atheism," then that's what he is willing to do. In other words, William doesn't care about telling the truth any more, because telling the truth won't help him win the culture war. Mind you, I'll bear this all in mind if he has the gall to accuse me of "sophistry" ever again. So there's no point in telling him that his claims are absurd or false -- he doesn't care about that.Kantian Naturalist
September 20, 2013
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Why would you want to deliberately try to shame someone? That’s kind of childish.
Shame serves a very good purpose, namely to keep one's self from doing things that shouldn't be done. It is a perfectly good emotion to try to illicit, and you see it as childish presumably because shame isn't something normally difficult for one to feel, and therefore needs no encouragement. Some people, however . . .Brent
September 20, 2013
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KF, William has just called me a liar. Should I call that slander?
And do you now see at last that this site is ENABLING such reprehensible, Alinskyite tactics on the part of WJM! Enabling "the foulest willful deception and hate" (comment 37). Enabling "good cop bad cop" manipulative games (comment 38). Enabling "vicious evil and slander" (comment 38). Enabling "civilization-destroying," religiously-driven, anti-reason thuggery (comment 54). Enabling "fever swamp hysterical hate, slander and lying" (comment 71, and my favorite). Enabling "hate and slander fests" (comment 84). Repent, KF, the Dread Pirate Roberts is here for your SOUL!LarTanner
September 20, 2013
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Well, if you don't think that lying is wrong, I guess so. You might want to watch out for the Truth in Advertising campaign though. You wouldn't want to end up on their Wall of Shame. Not good propaganda.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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It is your job as propagandist not to be misleading.
No, it is not. My job as a propagandist is to simply sway public opinion, whether what I say is misleading or not.William J Murray
September 20, 2013
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