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Controlling the waves of dynamic, far from equilibrium states: the NF-kB system of transcription regulation.

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I have recently commented on another thread:

about a paper that (very correctly) describes cells as dynamic, far from equilibrium systems, rather than as “traditional” machines.

That is true. But, of course, the cell implements the same functions as complex machines do, and much more. My simple point is that, to do that, you need much greater functional complexity than you need to realize a conventional machine.

IOWs, dynamic, far from equilibrium systems that can be as successful as a conventional machine, or more, must certainly be incredibly complex and amazing systems, systems that defy everything else that we already know and that we can conceive. They must not only implement their functional purposes, but they must do that by “harnessing” the constantly changing waves of change, of random noise, of improbability. I have commented on those ideas in the mentioned thread, at posts #5 and #8, and I have quoted at posts #11 and #12 a couple of interesting and pertinent papers, introducing the important concept of robustness: the ability to achieve reliable functional results in spite of random noise and disturbing variation.

In this OP, I would like to present in some detail a very interesting system that shows very well what we can understand, at present, of that kind of amazing systems.

The system I will discuss here is an old friend: it is the NF-kB system of transcription factors (nuclear factor kappa-light-chain-enhancer of activated B cells). We are speaking, therefore, of transcription regulation, a very complex topic that I have already discussed in some depth here:

I will remind here briefly that transcription regulation is the very complex process that allows cells to be completely different using the same genomic information: IOWs, each type of cell “reads” differently the genes in the common genome, and that allows the different types of cell differentiation and the different cell responses in the same cell type.

Transcription regulation relies on many different levels of control, that are summarized in the above quoted OP, but a key role is certainly played by Transcription Factors (TFs), proteins that bind DNA and act as activators or inhibitors of transcription at specific sites.

TFs are a fascinating class of proteins. There are a lot of them (1600 – 2000 in humans, almost 10% of all proteins), and they are usually medium sized proteins, about 500 AA long, containing at least one highly conserved domain, the DNA binding domain (DBD), and other, often less understood, functional components.

I quote again here a recent review about human TFs:

The Human Transcription Factors

The NK-kB system is a system of TFs. I have discussed it in some detail in the discussion following the Ubiquitin thread, but I will describe it in a more systematic way here.

In general, I will refer a lot to this very recent paper about it:

Considering Abundance, Affinity, and Binding Site Availability in the NF-kB Target Selection Puzzle

The NF-kB system relies essentially on 5 different TFs (see Fig. 1 A in the paper):

  1. RelA  (551 AAs)
  2. RelB  (579 AAs)
  3. c-Rel  (619 AAs)
  4. p105/p50
    (968 AAs)
  5. p100/p52  (900 AAs)

Those 5 TFs work forming dimers, homodimers or heterodimers, for a total of 15 possible compbinations, all of which have been found to work in the cell, even if some of them are much more common.

Then there are at least 4 inhibitor proteins, collectively called IkBs.

The mechanism is apparently simple enough. The dimers are inhibited by IkBs and therefore they remain in the cytoplasm in inactive form.

When an appropriate signal arrives to the cell and is received by a membrane receptor, the inhibitor (the IkB molecule) is phosphorylated and then ubiquinated and detached from the complex. This is done by a protein complex called IKK. The free dimer can then migrate to the nucleus and localize there, where it can act as a TF, binding DNA.

This is the canonical activation pathway, summarized in Fig. 1. There is also a non canonical activation pathway, that we will not discuss for the moment.


Mechanism of NF-κB action. In this figure, the NF-κB heterodimer consisting of Rel and p50 proteins is used as an example. While in an inactivated state, NF-κB is located in the cytosol complexed with the inhibitory protein IκBα. Through the intermediacy of integral membrane receptors, a variety of extracellular signals can activate the enzyme IκB kinase (IKK). IKK, in turn, phosphorylates the IκBα protein, which results in ubiquitination, dissociation of IκBα from NF-κB, and eventual degradation of IκBα by the proteasome. The activated NF-κB is then translocated into the nucleus where it binds to specific sequences of DNA called response elements (RE). The DNA/NF-κB complex then recruits other proteins such as coactivators and RNA polymerase, which transcribe downstream DNA into mRNA. In turn, mRNA is translated into protein, resulting in a change of cell function.

Attribution: Boghog2 at English Wikipedia [Public domain]

Now, the purpose of this OP is to show, in greater detail, how this mechanism, apparently moderately simple, is indeed extremely complex and dynamic. Let’s see.

The stimuli.

First of all, we must understand what are the stimuli that, arriving to the cell membrane, are capable to activate the NF-kB system. IOWs, what are the signals that work as inputs.

The main concept is: the NF-kB system is a central pathway activated by many stimuli:

  1. Inflammation
  2. Stress
  3. Free
    radicals
  4. Infections
  5. Radiation
  6. Immune
    stimulation

IOWs, a wide variety of aggressive stimuli can activate the system

The extracellular signal arrives to the cell usually through specific cytokines, for example TNF, IL1, or through pathogen associated molecules, like bacterial lipopolysaccharides (LPS). Of course there are different and specific membrane receptors, in particular IL-1R (for IL1) , TNF-R (for TNF), and many TLRs (Toll like receptors, for pathogen associated structures). A special kind of activation is implemented, in B and T lymphocytes, by the immune activation of the specific receptors for antigen epitopes (B cell receptor, BCR, and T cell receptor, TCR).

The process through which the activated receptor can activate the NF-kB dimer is rather complex: it involves, in the canonical pathway, a macromolecular complex called IKK (IkB kinase) complex, comprising two catalytic kinase subunits (IKKa and IKKb) and a regulatory protein (IKKg/NEMO), and involving in multiple and complex ways the ubiquitin system. The non canonical pathway is a variation of that. Finally, a specific protein complex (CBM complex or CBM signalosome) mediates the transmission from the immune BCR or TCR to the canonical pathway. See Fig. 2:

From: NF-κB Activation in Lymphoid Malignancies: Genetics, Signaling, and Targeted Therapy – Scientific Figure on ResearchGate. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Increased-activity-of-the-CARMA1-BCL10-MALT1-signalosome-drives-constitutive-NF-kB_fig2_324089636 [accessed 10 Jul, 2019]
Figure 3 – NF-κB Activation in Lymphoid Malignancies: Genetics, Signaling, and Targeted Therapy
available via license: Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International

I will not go into further details about this part, but those interested can have a look at this very good paper:

TLR-4, IL-1R and TNF-R signaling to NF-kB: variations on a common theme

In particular, Figg. 1, 2, 3.

In the end, as a result of the activation process, the IkB inhibitor is degraded by the ubiquitin system, and the NK-kB dimer is free to migrate to the nucleus.

An important concept is that this is a “rapid-acting” response system, because the dimers are already present, in inactive form, in the cytoplasm, and must not be synthesized de novo: so the system is ready to respond to the activating signal.

The response.

But what is the cellular response?

Again, there are multiple and complex possible responses.

Essentially, this system is a major regulator of innate and adaptive immune responses. As such, it has a central role in the regulation of inflammation, in immunity, in autoimmune processes, and in cancer.

Moreover, the NF-kB system is rather ubiquitous, and is present and active in many different cell types. And, as we have seen, it can be activated by different stimuli, in different ways.

So, the important point is that the response to activation must be (at least):

  1. Lineage-specific
  2. Stimulus-specific

IOWs, different cells must be able to respond differently, and each cell type must respond differently to different stimuli. That gives a wide range of possible gene expression patterns at the transcription level.

The following paper is a good review of the topic:

Selectivity of the NF-κB Response

For example, IL2 is induced by NF-kB activayion in T cells, but not in B cells (lineage specific response). Moreover, specific cell types can undergo specific, and often different, cell destinies after NF-kB activation: for example, NK-kB is strongly involved in the control and regulation of T and B cell development.

From:

30 years of NF-κB: a blossoming of relevance to human pathobiology

“B and T lymphocytes induce NF-κB in adaptive immune responses through the CARD11:Bcl10:MALT1 (CBM) complex (Hayden and Ghosh, 2008). Newly expressed genes promote lymphocyte proliferation and specific immune functions including antibody production by B cells and the generation of cytokines and other anti-pathogen responses by T cells.”

And, in the same cell type, certain promoters regulated by NF-kB require additional signaling (for example,  in human dendritic cells promoters for Il6Il12b, and MCP-1 require additional p38 histone phosphorylation to be activated), while others can be activated directly (stimulus-specific response).

So, to sum up:

  1. A variety of stimuli can activate the system in different ways
  2. The system itself has its complexity (different dimers)
  3. The response can be widely different, according to the cell type where it happens, and to the type of stimuli that have activated the system, and probably according to other complex variables.
  4. The possible responses include a wide range of regulations of inflammation, of the immune system, of cell specifications or modifications, and so on.

How does it work?

So, what do we know about the working of such a system?

I will ignore, for the moment, the many complexities of the activation pathways, both canonical and non canonical, the role of cyotkines and receptors and IKK complexes, the many facets of NEMO and of the involvement of the ubiquitin system.

For simplicity, we will start with the activated system: the IkB inhibitor has been released from the inactive complex in the cytoplasm, and some form of NF-kB dimer is ready to migrate to the nucleus.

Let’s remember that the purpose of this OP is to show that the system works as a dynamic, far from equilibrium system, rather than as a “traditional” machine. And that such a way to work is an even more amazing example of design and functional complexity.

To do that; I will rely mainly on the recent paper quoted at the beginning:

Considering Abundance, Affinity, and Binding Site Availability in the NF-kB Target Selection Puzzle

The paper is essentially about the NF-kB Target Selection Puzzle. IOWs, it tries to analyze what we know about the specificity of the response. How are specific patterns of transcription achieved after the activation of the system? What mechanisms allow the selection of the right genes to be transcribed (the targets) to implement the specific patterns according to cell type, context, and type of stimuli?

A “traditional” view of the system as a machine would try to establish rather fixed connections. For example, some type of dimer is connected to specific stimuli, and evokes specific gene patterns. Or some other components modulate the effect of NK-kB, generate diversification and specificity of the response.

Well, those ideas are not completely wrong. In a sense, the system does work also that way. Dimer specificity has a role. Other components have a role. In a sense, but only in a sense, the system works as though it were a traditional machine, and uses some of the mechanisms that we find in the concept of a traditional biological machine.

But that is only a tiny part of the real thing.

The real thing is that the system really works as a dynamic, far from equilibrium system, harnessing huge random/stochastic components to achieve robustness and complexity and flexibility of behavior in spite of all those non finalistic parts.

Let’s see how that happens, at least for the limited understanding we have of it. It is important to consider that this is a system that has been studied a lot, for decades, because of its central role in so many physiological and pathological contexts, and so we know many things. But still, our understanding is very limited, as you will see.

So, let’s go back to the paper. I will try to summarize as simply as possible the main concepts. Anyone who is really interested can refer to the paper itself.

Essentially, the paper analyzes three important and different aspects that contribute to the selection of targets at the genomic level by our TFs (IOWs, our NF-kB dimers, ready to migrate to the nucleus. As the title itself summarizes, they are:

  1. Abundance
  2. Affinity
  3. Binding site availability

1. Abundance

Abundance is referred here to two different variables: abundance of NF-kB Binding Sites in the genome and abundance of Nucleus-Localized NF-kB Dimers. Let’s consider them separately.

1a) Abundance of NF-kB Binding Sites in the genome:

It is well known that TFs bind specific sites in the genome. For NF-kB TFs, the following consensus kB site pattern has been found:

 5′-GGGRNWYYCC-3′

where R, W, Y, and N, respectively denote purine, adenine or thymine, pyrimidine, and any nucleotide.

That simply means that any sequence corresponding to that pattern in the genome can, in principle, bind NF-kB dimers.

So the problem is: how many such sequences do exist in the human genome?

Well, a study based on RelA has evaluated about 10^4 consensus sequences in the whole genome, but as NF-kB dimers seem to bind even incomplete consensus sites, the total number of potential binding sites could be nearer to 10^6

1b) Abundance of Nucleus-Localized NF-kB Dimers:

An estimate of the abundance of dimers in the nucleus after activation of the system is that about 1.5 × 10^5 molecules can be found, but again that is derived from studies about RelA only. Moreover, the number of molecules and type of dimer can probably vary much according to cell type.

So, the crucial variable, that is the ratio between binding sites and available dimers, and which could help undertsand the rate of sites saturation in the nucleus, remains rather undecided, and it seems very likely that it can vary a lot in different circumstances.

But there is another very interesting aspect about the concentration of dimers in the nucleus. According to some studies, NF-kB seems to generate oscillations of its nuclear content in some cell types, and those oscillation can be a way to generate specific transcription patterns:

NF-kB oscillations translate into functionally related patterns of gene expression

For example, this very recent paper :

NF-κB Signaling in Macrophages: Dynamics, Crosstalk, and Signal Integration

shows at Fig. 3 the occupancy curve of binding sites at nuclear level after NF-kB activation in two different cell types.

In fibroblasts, the curve is a periodic oscillation, with a frequency that varies according to various factors, and translates into different transcription scenarios accordingly:

Gene expression dynamics scale with the period (g1) and amplitude (g2) of these oscillations, which are influenced by variables such as signal strength, duration, and receptor identity.


In macrophages, instead, the curve is rather:

a single, strong nuclear translocation event which persists for as long as the stimulus remains and tends to remain above baseline for an extended period of time.

In this case, the type of transcription will be probably regulated by the are under the curve, ratehr than by the period and amplitude of the oscialltions, as happened in fibroblasts.

Interestingly, while in previous studies it seemed that the concentration of nuclear dimers could be sufficient to saturate most or all binding sites, that has been found not to be the case in more recent studies. Again from the paper about abundance:

in fact, this lack of saturation of the system is necessary to generate stimulus- and cell-type specific gene expression profiles

Moreover, the binding itself seems to be rather short-lived:

Interestingly, it is now thought that most functional NF-kB interactions with chromatin—interactions that lead to a change in transcription—are fleeting… a subsequent study using FRAP in live cells expressing RelA-GFP showed that most RelA-DNA interactions are actually quite dynamic, with half-lives of a few seconds… Indeed, a recent study used single-molecule tracking of individual Halo-tagged RelA molecules in live cells to show that the majority (∼96%) of RelA undergoes short-lived interactions lasting on average ∼0.5 s, while just ∼4% of RelA molecules form more stable complexes with a lifetime of ∼4 s.

2. Affinity

Affinity of dimers for DNA sequences is not a clear cut matter. From the paper:

Biochemical DNA binding studies of a wide variety of 9–12 base-pair sequences have revealed that different NF-kB dimers bind far more sequences than previously thought, with different dimer species exhibiting specific but overlapping affinities for consensus and non-consensus kB site sequences.

IOWs, we have different dimers (15 different types) binding with varying affinity different DNA sequences (starting from the classical consensus sequence, but including also incomplete sequences). Remember that those sequences are rather short (the consensus sequence is 10 nucleotides long), and that there are thousands of such sequences in the genome.

Moreover, different bindings can affect transcription differently. Again, from the paper:

How might different consensus kB sites modulate the activity of the NF-kB dimers? Structure-function studies have shown that binding to different consensus kB sites can alter the conformation of the bound NF-kB dimers, thus dictating dimer function When an NF-kB dimer interacts with a DNA sequence, side chains of the amino  acids located in the DNA-binding domains of dimers contact the bases exposed in the groove of the DNA. For different consensus kB site sequences different bases are exposed in this groove, and NF-kB seems to alter its conformation to maximize interactions with the DNA and maintain high binding affinity. Changes in conformation may in turn impact NF-kB binding to co-regulators of transcription, whether these are activating or inhibitory, to specify the strength and dynamics of the transcriptional response. These findings again highlight how the huge array of kB binding site sequences must play a key role in modulating the transcription of target genes.

Quite a complex scenario, I would say!

But there is more:

Finally, as an additional layer of dimer and sequence-specific regulation, each of the subunits can be phosphorylated at multiple sites with, depending on the site, effects on nearly every step of NF-kB activation.

IOWs, the 15 dimers we have mentioned can be phosphorylated in many different ways, and that changes their binding affinities and their effects on transcription.

This section of the paper ends with a very interesting statement:

Overall, when considering the various ways in which NF-kB dimer abundances and their affinity for DNA can be modulated, it becomes clear that with these multiple cascading effects, small differences in consensus kB site sequences and small a priori differences in interaction affinities can ultimately have a large impact on the transcriptional response to NF-kB pathway activation.

Emphasis mine.

This is interesting, because in some way it seems to suggest that the whole system acts like a chaotic system, at least at some basic level. IOWs, small initial differences, maybe even random noise, can potentially affect deeply the general working of the whole systems.

Unless, of course, there is some higher, powerful level of control.

3. Availability of high affinity kB binding sequences

We have seen that there is a great abundance and variety of binding sequences for NF-kB dimers in the human genome. But, of course, those sequences are not necessarily available. Different cell types will have a different scenario of binding sites availability.

Why?

Because, as we know, the genome and chromatin are a very dynamic system, that can exist in many different states, continuosly changing in different cell types and, in the same cell type, in different conditions..

We know rather well the many levels of control that affect DNA and chromatin state. In brief, they are essentially:

  1. DNA methylation
  2. Histone modifications (methylation, acetylation, etc)
  3. Chromatin modifications
  4. Higher levels of organization, including nuclear localization and TADs (Topologically Associating Domains)

For example, from the paper:

The promoter regions of early response genes have abundant histone acetylation or trimethylation prior to stimulation [e.g., H3K27ac, (67) and H4K20me3, (66)], a chromatin state “poised” for immediate activation…  In contrast, promoters of late genes often have hypo-acetylated histones, requiring conformational changes to the chromatin to become accessible. They are therefore unable to recruit NF-kB for up to several hours after stimulation (68), due to the slow process of chromatin remodeling.

We must remember that each wave of NK-kB activation translates into the modified transcription of a lot of different genes at the genome level. It is therefore extremely important to consider what genes are available (IOWs, their promoters can be reached by the NF-kB signal) in each cell type and cell state.

The paper concludes:

Taken together, chromatin state and chromatin organization strongly influence the selection of DNA binding sites by NF-kB dimers and, most likely, the selection of the target genes that are regulated by these protein-DNA interaction events. Analyses that consider binding events in the context of three-dimensional nuclear organization and chromatin composition will be required to generate a more accurate view of the ways in which NF-kBDNA binding affects gene transcription.

This is the main scenario. But there are other components, that I have not considered in detail for the sake of brevity, for example competition between NF-kB dimers and the complex role and intervention of other co-regulators of transcription.

Does the system work?

But does the system work?

Of course it does. It is a central regulator, as we have said, of many extremely important biological processes, above all immunity. This is the system that decides how immune cells, T and B lymphocytes, have to behave, in terms of cell destiny and cell state. It is of huge relevance in all inflammatory responses, and in our defense against infections. It works, it works very well.

And what happens if it does not work properly?

Of course, like all very complex systems, errors can happen. Those interested can have a look at this recent paper:

30 years of NF-κB: a blossoming of relevance to human pathobiology

First of all, many serious genetic diseases have been linked to mutations in genes involved in the system. You can find a list in Table 1 of the above paper. Among them, for example, some forms of SCID, Severe combined immunodeficiency, one of the most severe genetic diseases of the immune system.

But, of course, a dysfunction of the NF-kB system has a very important role also in autoimmune diseases and in cancer.

Conclusions.

So, let’s try to sum up what we have seen here in the light of the original statement about biological systems that “are not machines”.

The NF-kB system is a perfect example. Even if we still understand very little of how it works, it is rather obvious that it is not a traditional machine.

A traditional machine would work differently. The signal would be transmitted from the membrane to the nucleus in the simplest possible way, without ambiguities and diversions. The Transcription Factor, once activated, would bind, at the level of the genome, very specific sites, each of them corresponding to a definite cascade of specific genes. The result would be clear cut, almost mechanical. Like a watch.

But that’s not the way things happen. There are myriads of variations, of ambiguities, of stochastic components.

The signal arrives to the membrane in multiple ways, very different one from the other: IL1, IL17, TNF, bacterial LPS, and immune activation of the B cell receptor (BCR) or the T cell receptor (TCR) are all possible signals.

The signal is translated to the NF-kB proteins in very different ways: canonical or non canonical activation, involving complex protein structures such as:

The CBM signalosome, intermediate between immune activation of BCR or TCR and canonical activation of the NF-kB. This complex is made of at least three proteins, CARD11, Bcl10 and MALT1.

The IKK complex in canonical activation: this is made of three proteins, IKK alpha, IKK beta, and NEMO. Its purpose is to phosphorylate the IkB, the inhibitor of the dimers, so that it can be ubiquinated and released from the dimer. Then the dimer can relocate to the nucleus.

Non canonical pathway: it involves the following phosphorylation cascade: NIK -> IKK alpha dimer -> Relb – p100 dimer -> Relb – p50 dimer (the final TF). It operates during the development of lymphoid organs and is responsible for the generation of B and T lymphocytes.

Different kinds of activated dimers relocate to the nucleus.

Different dimers, in varying abundance, interact with many different binding sites: complete or incomplete consensus sites, and probably others. The interaction is usually brief, and it can generate an oscillating pattern, or a more stable pattern

Completely different sets of genes are transcribed in different cell types and in different contexts, because of the interaction of NF-kB TFs with their promoters.

Many other factors and systems contribute to the final result.

The chromatin state of the cell at the moment of the NF-kB activation is essential to determine the accessibility of different binding sites, and therefore the final transcription pattern.

All these events and interactions are quick, unstable, far from equilibrium. A lot of possible random noise is involved.

In spite of that amazing complexity and potential stochastic nature of the system, reliable transcripion regulation and results are obtained in most cases. Those results are essential to immune cell differentiation, immune response, both innate and adaptive, inflammation, apoptosis, and many other crucial cellular processes.

So, let’s go back to our initial question.

Is this the working of a machine?

Of course it is! Because the results are purposeful, reasonably robust and reliable, and govern a lot of complex processes with remarkable elegance and efficiency.

But certainly, it is not a traditional machine. It is a lot more complex. It is a lot more beautiful and flexible.

It works with biological realities and not with transistors and switches. And biological realities are, by definition, far from equilibrium states, improbable forms of order that must continuously recreate themselves, fighting against the thermodynamic disorder and the intrinsic random noise that should apparently dominate any such scenario.

It is more similar to a set of extremely clever surfers who succeed in performing elegant and functional figures and motions in spite of the huge contrasting waves.

It is, from all points of view, amazing.

Now, Paley was absolutely right. No traditional machine, like a watch, could ever originate without design.

And if that is true of a watch, with its rather simple and fixed mechanisms, how much truer it must be for a system like NF-kB? Or, for that, like any cellular complex system?

Do you still have any doubts?

Added graphic: The evolutionary history, in terms of human conserved information, of the three proteins in the CBM signalosome.
On the y axis, homologies with the human protein as bits per aminoacid (bpa). On the x axis, approximate time of appearance in million of years.
The graphic shows the big information jump in vertebrates for all three protens , especially CARD11.


Added graphic: two very different proteins and their functional history


Added graphic (for Bill Cole). Functional history of Prp8, collagen, p53.
Comments
Gpuccio and Silver Asiatic, A few of my thoughts about the relationship between science, philosophy, theology and religion. Creationism is based on a religious text-- the Jewish-Christian scriptures. ID, on the other hand, is at the very least a philosophical inference from the study of nature itself. Even materialists recognize the possibility that nature is designed. Richard Dawkins, for example, has argued that “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.” He then goes on to argue that it is not designed. So what is Dawkins argument? Let’s try out his quote as the main premise in a basic logical argument. Premise 1: “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.” Premise 2: Dawkins (a trained zoologist) believes that “design” is only an appearance. Conclusion: Therefore, nothing we study in the biosphere is designed. The conclusion is based on what? Are Dawkin’s beliefs and opinions self-evidently true? Is the science settled as he suggests? If the answer for those two questions is no (Dawkin’s arguments BTW are by no means conclusive) then what is the reason for not looking at living systems that have “the appearance of having been designed for a purpose?” Couldn't they really have been designed for a purpose? That is a basic justification for ID. It begins from a philosophical neutral position (that some things could really be designed) whereas a committed Darwinian like Dawkins, along with other "committed" materialists, begins with the logically fallacious assumption that design is impossible.john_a_designer
July 17, 2019
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GP @141: But even in the case where you would develop translucent fur, I hope you’ll keep writing OPs for us here, right? :)jawa
July 17, 2019
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Silver Asiatic at #138:
I responded to your statement: Science can investigate anything that produces observable facts. You then said: The correct answer is always the same: science can, and must, investigate, everything that can be observed in reality. Those two statements actually conflict with each other. You ask me to assume your meaning of various terms (as if the meaning is obvious) but in this case, I assume that your first statement is incorrect and you corrected it with the second.
Oh, good heavens! That's what happens when someone (you) discusses not to understand and be understood, but just to generate confusion. You are of course equivocating on the word "investigate". Maybe the second from is more precise, but the meaning is the same. However, let's clarify, for those who can be confused by your playing with words. Science always starts from facts: what can be observed. But science tries to explain facts building theories (maps of reality). Those theories need not include only what is observable. They just need to explain observed facts. For example, most scientific theories are based on mathematics, which is not something observable. Another example. Most theories in empirical science are about possible relationships of cause and effect. But the relarionship of cause and effect is not something that can be observed. My error was probably to use the word "investigate", which was ambiguous enought to allow you to play with it. OK, let's say that science can build hypotheses only to explain observed facts, but of course those hypotheses, those maps of reality, can include any cognitive content, if it is appropriate to the explanation. The word "evaluate" can refer of course both to the gathering of facts and to the building of theories. My original statement was. " Indeed, ID is not evaluating anything about the designer, except for what can be inferred by the observable effects of his interventions." Wasn't it clear enough for you?
I was using the general and ordinary meaning of the term “design”. Whatever is designed, even if using previously existing material, is an act of creation. If that which at one moment was inanimate matter, suddenly, by an act of an intelligent agent becomes a living organism – that is a creation. The designer created something that did not exist before. You limited the term creation to only those acts which are ex nihilo but that’s an artificial limit.
The problem here is not the meaning of the word design, but the meaning of the word creation. The word creation here, in this blog and I would say in the whole debate about ID and more, is used in the sense of "creation ex nihilo", something that only God can do. Why do you think that our adversaries (maybe you too) call us "creationists" and not "designists"? It's strange that one like you, that has been coming here for some time, is not aware of that, and suddenly inteprets "creation" in this debate as a statement about a movie or a book. However, the problem is not the meaning of words, For that, it's enough to clarify what we mean. Clearly, and without word plays. More in next post.gpuccio
July 17, 2019
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ET, The Massachusetts bears may be cool animals, but didn’t get hired for Coca-Cola TV ads like their polar cousins. :)jawa
July 17, 2019
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ET: Thanks to you! :) I suspected you had some special connection with bears! I am more a cat guy, but I do understand love and interest for all animals. :)gpuccio
July 17, 2019
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Thank you, gpuccio. We have a little impasse as I think it is the number of specific mutations and the functions are all the physiological changes afforded by them. In his book "Human Errors", Nathan Lents tells us that it is highly unlikely that one locus will receive another mutation after already getting mutated. And yet it has the same probability for change as any other site. So it looks like evolutionists are talking about the probability of a specific mutation happening regardless of function. As for bears- living in Massachusetts I run into black bears all of the time. They come up on my deck at night. I have photos of them in my yard. And being a dog-person I have a keen interest. That's all- I think they are really cool animals.ET
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ET at #142: Thank you for the further clarifications about bears. You are really an expert! :) However, it is not really the numser of specific mutations that counts. It is the number of coordinated mutations necessaty to get a function, none of which has any functional effect alone. There is a big difference. I have tried to explain that at #140.gpuccio
July 17, 2019
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Pw at #137: "Why is there a drop in the black line in the last graphic in your OP? What does that mean? Loss of function?" You mean the small drop in amphibians in the blue line (BCL10)? Yes, that kind of pattern can be observed often enough, usually in one or two classes. The strict meaning is that the best homology hit in that class was lower than in the older class. Here the effect is small, but sometimes we can see a whole unexpected drop in one class of organisms, while the general pattern is completelt consistent in all the other ones. Technically, we are speaking of human conserved information. That's what is measured here. Probably, it is a loss of function in relation to that protein in that class. That is perfectly compatible with Behe's concept of devolution. That form of the protein seems somtemise to be completely lacking in one class. In some cases, it could also be a technical error in the databases, or in the blast algorithm. We can expect that, it happens. Some of the classes I have considered are more represented in the databases, some less. However, if one proteins lacks any relevant homology in one class in my graphic, that means that none of the organisms in that class showed any relevant homology, because I always consider the best hit among all the proteins of all the organisms os that class included in the Ncbi databases.gpuccio
July 17, 2019
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1- Bears with actual white fur exist 2- There are grizzly (brown) bears with actual white fur. They are not polar bears. 3- I am looking at the number of specific mutations it would take to get a polar bear from a common ancestor with brown bears. That would tell me if blind and mindless processes are up to the task. The paper gpuccio provided gives us a hint and it already goes against blind and mindless processes.ET
July 17, 2019
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Jawa at #134: "Is it possible that the polar bears were affected by drinking so much Coca-Cola in TV commercials?" Absolutely! Let's wait: if I develop translucent fur in the next few years, that will be a strong argument in favour of your hypothesis! :)gpuccio
July 17, 2019
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ET: "Again- polar bears do NOT have white fur. That is elementary school level knowledge in Massachusetts." OK, we have no polar bears here in Italy, so I cannot share your expertise! :) So, I read a little about the issue. Polar bear's fur is hollow and lacks any pigment. Indeed, it is rather transparent. The white color is due to optical effects. And the skin is black, as you say. Brown bears has a fur that is solid and pigmented. OK, what does that mean? First of all, let's say that the fact that the fur is not really white is not important in relation to the supposed selection of white in polar animals, because indeed polar bears appear white, so to the purpose of the supposed positive selcetion there is no real difference. But that is not the real point, I would say. The real point is: what is the mechanism of the divergence between brown bears and polar bears? The paper I mentioned puts the split at about 500000 years ago, that is not much. Some give a few million years. Whatever, it is certainly a rather recent event in evolutionary history. So, can the divergence be explained by neo-darwinian mechanisms, or is it the result of design? Or of some biological algorithm embedded in the common ancestor? The paper I mentioned of course has a neo-darwinian answe, but that could hardly be different. Behe thinks that this can be a case of darwinian "devolution": differentiation through loss of function which goves some environmental advantage. You are definitely in favor of design (or an adaptation algorithm, I am not sure). Who is right? I think this is a case that shows clearly how ID theory is necessary to give good answers to that kind of problems. IOWs, we can answer only if we can evaluate the functional complexity of the divergence. The problem is that I cannot find any appropriate data in all the source that have been mentioned, or that I could find in my brief search, to do that. Why? Because nobody seems to know the molecular basis for the difference in fur structure and pigmentation. And it is not completely clear how functionally important the polar bear fur structure is, even if it is generally believe that it is under positive selection, therefor somehow functional in the appropriate environment. If you have some better data, please let me know. Of course, fur is not the only difference, but for the moment let's focus on that. So, from an ID point of view, we have different possible scenarios, if we could measure the functional information behind the difference in fur structure and pigmentation. To safely infer design according to the classic procedure, we need some function that implies more than 500 bits of functional information. However, as we are dealing here with a population (bears) rather limited in number and slow-reproducing, and with a rather short time window, I would be more than happy with 150 bits of functional information to infer design in this case. The genomic differences highlighted in the paper I quoted seem to be rather simple. Most of them can be interpreted as one aminoacid mutations with loss of function, perfectly in the range of neo-darwinism and of Behe's model. But I have no idea if those simple genetic differences are enough to explain what we observe. The lack of pigmentation is probably easier to explain. For the hollow structure, I have no ideas. The problem is: we have to know the molecular basis, otherwise no computation of functional information can be made. Because, as we know, there are sometimes big morphological differences that have a vert simple biological explanation, and vice versa. So again, I must ask: have you any data about the molecular foundation of the differences? In the meantime, I would say that yhe scenarios are: 1) The differences can be explained by one or more independent mutations affecting functions already present. Or, at most, 2 or 3 coordinated mutations where each one affects the same function in a relevant way, so that NS could intervene at each step (IOWs a simple tweaking pathway of the loss of function, as we see for example in antibiotic resistance). These scenarios are in the range of what RV + NS could in principle do, maybe even in a population like bears. In this case, I would accept a neo-darwinian mechanism as a reasonable explanation, until different data are discovered. 2) The differences imply a gain in functional information of 150+ bits. We can safely infer design. Polar bears were designed, some time about 400000 years ago, or a little more. 3) The differences imply something between 12 bits (3 AAs) and 150 bits. In this case, It would be wise to remain cautious. It is not the best scenario to infer design, even if it is rather unlikely for a neo-darwinian mechanism in that kind of population. Maybe some simple active adaptation algorithm embedded in brown bears could be considered. But such an algorithm should be in some way detailed and shown to be there, not only imagined. IMO, this is how ID theory works. Through facts, and objective measurements of functional information. There is no other way. Just a final note about the "waiting for two mutations" paper. That is of course a very interesting article. But it is about two coordinated mutations needed to generate a new function, none of which individually confers any advantage. IOWs, this is more or less the scenario of chloroquine resistance, again linked to Behe. I agree that such a scenario, even if possible, is extremely unlikely in a population like bears. But the simple fact is that almost all the variations considered by Behe in his reasonings about devolution are very simple. One mutation is often enough to lose a function. One frameshift mutation can inactivate a whole protein, losing maybe thousands of bits of functional information. And we can have a lot of such individual independent mutations in a population like bears in 400000 years. So, unless we have better data on the functional information involved in the transition to polar bears, I suspend any judgement.gpuccio
July 17, 2019
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More on the cute polar bears: Polar bear evolution is marked by rapid changes in gene copy number in response to dietary shift David C. Rinker, Natalya K. Specian, Shu Zhao, and John G. Gibbons PNAS July 2, 2019 116 (27) 13446-13451;   DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1901093116
  Copy number variation describes the degree to which contiguous genomic regions differ in their number of copies among individuals. Copy number variable regions can drive ecological adaptation, particularly when they contain genes. Here, we compare differences in gene copy numbers among 17 polar bear and 9 brown bear individuals to evaluate the impact of copy number variation on polar bear evolution. Polar bears and brown bears are ideal species for such an analysis as they are closely related, yet ecologically distinct. Our analysis identified variation in copy number for genes linked to dietary and ecological requirements of the bear species. These results suggest that genic copy number variation has played an important role in polar bear adaptation to the Arctic.
Polar bear (Ursus maritimus) and brown bear (Ursus arctos) are recently diverged species that inhabit vastly differing habitats. Thus, analysis of the polar bear and brown bear genomes represents a unique opportunity to investigate the evolutionary mechanisms and genetic underpinnings of rapid ecological adaptation in mammals. Copy number (CN) differences in genomic regions between closely related species can underlie adaptive phenotypes and this form of genetic variation has not been explored in the context of polar bear evolution. Here, we analyzed the CN profiles of 17 polar bears, 9 brown bears, and 2 black bears (Ursus americanus). We identified an average of 318 genes per individual that showed evidence of CN variation (CNV). Nearly 200 genes displayed species-specific CN differences between polar bear and brown bear species. Principal component analysis of gene CN provides strong evidence that CNV evolved rapidly in the polar bear lineage and mainly resulted in CN loss. Olfactory receptors composed 47% of CN differentiated genes, with the majority of these genes being at lower CN in the polar bear. Additionally, we found significantly fewer copies of several genes involved in fatty acid metabolism as well as AMY1B, the salivary amylase-encoding gene in the polar bear. These results suggest that natural selection shaped patterns of CNV in response to the transition from an omnivorous to primarily carnivorous diet during polar bear evolution. Our analyses of CNV shed light on the genomic underpinnings of ecological adaptation during polar bear evolution.
OLV
July 17, 2019
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Gpuccio I responded to your statement:
Science can investigate anything that produces observable facts.
You then said:
The correct answer is always the same: science can, and must, investigate, everything that can be observed in reality.
Those two statements actually conflict with each other. You ask me to assume your meaning of various terms (as if the meaning is obvious) but in this case, I assume that your first statement is incorrect and you corrected it with the second.
You are equivocating on the meaning of “creation”. Of course all acts of design are “creative” in a very general sense.
I was using the general and ordinary meaning of the term "design". Whatever is designed, even if using previously existing material, is an act of creation. If that which at one moment was inanimate matter, suddenly, by an act of an intelligent agent becomes a living organism - that is a creation. The designer created something that did not exist before. You limited the term creation to only those acts which are ex nihilo but that's an artificial limit. ID science is not limited to the study of biology. ID also looks at the origin of the universe. In that case, ID is making a claim about the origin of time, space and matter. It is not limited to reconfigurations of existing matter.
You quote me saying: “Indeed, ID is not evaluating anything about the designer…” and then you comment: As I quoted you above ” Science can investigate anything that produces observable facts”, why is not ID evaluating the designer? This is quote mining of the worst kind. The original statement was: ” Indeed, ID is not evaluating anything about the designer, except for what can be inferred by the observable effects of his interventions.” Shame on you.
You're trying to blame me for something here, but what you quoted did not answer the question. You avoided answering it when I asked about God also. You say that science can investigate anything that produces observable facts. You explain that by saying science can only make inferences from observable effects. As I said before, those two ideas contradict. In the first (bolded) you say that science can investigate "the producer" of the facts. You then shame me for asking why ID cannot investigate the designer by saying that ID can investigate the observable effects. As I said above, you corrected your first statement with the second - but you should not have blamed me for something that merely pointed to the conflict here. I'm not trying to trick or trap you or win anything. You make a statement that contradicts everything I had known about ID, as well as what contradicts science itself (that science can investigate anything that produces observations). I'm not really worried about your personal views on these things, I was just interested in what seemed to be a confused approach to the issue.
The designer that we infer in ID is the designer of biological information.
As above, the designer we refer to in ID is the designer of the universe, not merely of biological information. We infer something about the generation of consciousness. In fact, the immaterial quality of consciousness is evidence in support of ID. We look for the origin of that which we can observe.
We infer nothing about the generation of consciousness (I don’t use the term design, because as I have explained I speak of design only for materila objects). As said, nobody here is trying to build a theory of consciousness.
Mainstream evolution already assumes that consciousness is an evolutionary development. I have read ID researchers who have spoken about the irreducible quality of consciousness as evidence of design. Consciousness separates humans from non-human animals. Evolutionary theory offers an explanation, and ID (not your version of ID but others) offers an opposing one.Silver Asiatic
July 17, 2019
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GP, I appreciate your answers at 107. Please, let me ask you another question: Why is there a drop in the black line in the last graphic in your OP? What does that mean? Loss of function?pw
July 17, 2019
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If all of king's horses and all of king's men couldn't put Humpty together again, who else can do it? :)jawa
July 17, 2019
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GP @129: Thanks for referencing the discussion about the Humpty Dumpty argument. Very interesting indeed.PeterA
July 17, 2019
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Is it possible that the polar bears were affected by drinking so much Coca-Cola in TV commercials? :)jawa
July 17, 2019
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GP @131:
About polar bears, and in support of Behe’s ideas: Population Genomics Reveal Recent Speciation and Rapid Evolutionary Adaptation in Polar Bears
Here's another article also mentioning the cute polar bears: Genetic diversity of CHC22 clathrin impacts its function in glucose metabolism Matteo Fumagalli, Stephane M Camus, Yoan Diekmann, Alice Burke, Marine D Camus, Paul J Norman, Agnel Joseph, Laurent Abi-Rached, Andrea Benazzo, Rita Rasteiro, Iain Mathieson, Maya Topf, Peter Parham, Mark G Thomas, Frances M Brodsky eLife 2019;8:e41517 DOI: 10.7554/eLife.41517
CHC22 clathrin plays a key role in intracellular membrane traffic of the insulin-responsive glucose transporter GLUT4 in humans. We performed population genetic and phylogenetic analyses of the CHC22-encoding CLTCL1 gene, revealing independent gene loss in at least two vertebrate lineages, after arising from gene duplication. All vertebrates retained the paralogous CLTC gene encoding CHC17 clathrin, which mediates endocytosis. For vertebrates retaining CLTCL1, strong evidence for purifying selection supports CHC22 functionality. All human populations maintained two high frequency CLTCL1 allelic variants, encoding either methionine or valine at position 1316. Functional studies indicated that CHC22-V1316, which is more frequent in farming populations than in hunter-gatherers, has different cellular dynamics than M1316-CHC22 and is less effective at controlling GLUT4 membrane traffic, altering its insulin-regulated response. These analyses suggest that ancestral human dietary change influenced selection of allotypes that affect CHC22’s role in metabolism and have potential to differentially influence the human insulin response.
 It is also possible that some forms of polar bear CHC22 are super-active at GLUT4 sequestration, providing a route to maintain high blood glucose, as occurs through other mutations in the cave fish (Riddle et al., 2018).
Regulators of fundamental membrane traffic pathways have diversified through gene duplication in many species over the timespan of eukaryotic evolution. Retention and loss can, in some cases, be correlated with special requirements resulting from species differentiation
The genetic diversity that we report here may reflect evolution towards reversing a human tendency to insulin resistance and have relevance to coping with increased carbohydrate in modern diets.
  And here's another one; Environmental contaminants modulate the transcriptional activity of polar bear (Ursus maritimus) and human peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha (PPARA) Heli Routti, Mari K. Berg, Roger Lille-Langøy, Lene Øygarden, Mikael Harju, Rune Dietz, Christian Sonne & Anders Goksøyr  Scientific Reports   volume 9, Article number: 6918 (2019) DOI: 10.1038/s41598-019-43337-w
Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alfa (PPARA/NR1C1) is a ligand activated nuclear receptor that is a key regulator of lipid metabolism in tissues with high fatty acid catabolism such as the liver. Here, we cloned PPARA from polar bear liver tissue and studied in vitrotransactivation of polar bear and human PPARA by environmental contaminants using a luciferase reporter assay. Six hinge and ligand-binding domain amino acids have been substituted in polar bear PPARA compared to human PPARA. Perfluorocarboxylic acids (PFCA) and perfluorosulfonic acids induced the transcriptional activity of both human and polar bear PPARA. The most abundant PFCA in polar bear tissue, perfluorononanoate, increased polar bear PPARA-mediated luciferase activity to a level comparable to that of the potent PPARA agonist WY-14643 (~8-fold, 25??M). Several brominated flame retardants were weak agonists of human and polar bear PPARA. While single exposures to polychlorinated biphenyls did not, or only slightly, increase the transcriptional activity of PPARA, a technical mixture of PCBs (Aroclor 1254) strongly induced the transcriptional activity of human (~8-fold) and polar bear PPARA (~22-fold). Polar bear PPARA was both quantitatively and qualitatively more susceptible than human PPARA to transactivation by less lipophilic compounds.
it should be kept in mind that polar bear metabolism is highly adapted to cold climate and feeding and fasting cycles, and direct comparison of physiological functions between polar bears and humans is thus challenging.
  Here's an article about the brown bears that mentions the polar bear cousins too: Evolutionary history and palaeoecology of brown bear in North-East Siberia re-examined using ancient DNA and stable isotopes from skeletal remains Alba Rey-Iglesia, Ana García-Vázquez, Eve C. Treadaway, Johannes van der Plicht, Gennady F. Baryshnikov, Paul Szpak, Hervé Bocherens, Gennady G. Boeskorov & Eline D. Lorenzen  Scientific Reports   volume 9, Article number: 4462 (2019) DOI: 10.1038/s41598-019-40168-7
The mtDNA of extant polar bears (Ursus maritimus), clade 2b, is embedded within brown bears and is most closely related to clade 2a, the ABC brown bears18.
 OLV
July 17, 2019
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Again- polar bears do NOT have white fur. That is elementary school level knowledge in Massachusetts. "Lack of pigmentation"? It's a translucent hollow tube! Luminescence- when sunlight shines on it there is a reaction we call luminescence (another great word for sobriety check points). The skin is black. To claim that differential accumulation of genetic accidents, errors and mistakes just happened upon luminescence for polar bears, is extraordinary and without a means to test it. Count the number of specific changes already discussed and compare that to waiting for TWO mutations. You will see there isn't enough time in the universe for Darwinian processes to pull it off.ET
July 16, 2019
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For all interested: About polar bears, and in support of Behe's ideas: Population Genomics Reveal Recent Speciation and Rapid Evolutionary Adaptation in Polar Bears https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(14)00488-7
Genes Associated with White Fur A white phenotype is usually selected against in natural environments, but is common in the Arctic (e.g., beluga whale, arctic hare, and arctic fox), where it likely confers a selective advantage. A key question in the evolution of polar bears is which gene(s) cause the white coat color phenotype. The white fur is one of the most distinctive features of the species and is caused by a lack of pigment in the hair. We find evidence of strong positive selection in two candidate genes associated with pigmentation, LYST and AIM1 (Table 1). LYST encodes the lysosomal trafficking regulator Lyst. Melanosomes, where melanin production occurs, are lysosome-related organelles and have been implicated in the progression of disease associated with Lyst mutation in mice (Trantow et al., 2010). The types and positions of mutations identified in LYST vary widely, but Lyst mutant phenotypes in cattle, mice, rats, and mink are characterized by hypopigmentation, a melanosome defect characterized by light coat color (Kunieda et al., 1999, Runkel et al., 2006, Gutiérrez-Gil et al., 2007). LYST contains seven polar bear-specific missense substitutions, in contrast to only one in brown bear. One of these, a glutamine to histidine change within a conserved WD40-repeat containing domain, is predicted to significantly affect protein function (Figure 5B, Table S7). Three polar bear changes in LYST are located in proximity to the N-terminal structural domain and map close to human mutations associated with Chediak-Higashi syndrome, a hair and eyes depigmentation disease (Figure 5C). We predict that all these protein-coding changes, possibly aided by regulatory mutations or interactions with other genes, dramatically suppress melanin production and transport, causing the lack of pigment in polar bear fur. Variation in expression of the other color-associated gene, AIM1 (absent in melanoma 1), has been associated with tumor suppression in human melanoma (Trent et al., 1990), a malignant tumor of melanocytes that affects melanin pigment production.
See also comments #75 and #112.gpuccio
July 16, 2019
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Silver Asiatic:
I mentioned Mozart’s symphonies which were designed in his conscious mind. They weren’t designed on paper or by musical instruments.
No. According to the definitions I have given, and that I always use when discussing ID. Mozart's symphonies were designed when he put them on paper. Before that, they were conscious representations, and not designed objects. As said, we are not discussing how conscious representations take form in consciousness. In ID we are interested only in the design of objects.
Also, if an immaterial entity created other immaterial entities, you would say “that is not an act of purposeful design”?
Again, that would not be design in the sense I have given, Indeed, that problem has nothing to do with ID theory. Immaterial entities do not have a configuration that can be observed, and therefore no functional information can be measured for them. ID theory is not appropriate for immaterial entities. It is about designed objects.gpuccio
July 16, 2019
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EugeneS: I remember the argument mentioned by Sal Cordova, but it seems that the original argument was made by Jonathan Wells (or maybe someone else before him). Here is an OP by V. J. Torley (the old VJT :) ), defending the argument. It gives a transcript of the argument bt Wells. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/putting-humpty-dumpty-back-together-again-why-is-this-a-bad-argument-for-design/ IMO. the argument is extremely strong. OOL theories imagine that in some way some of the molecules necessary for life originated. That some life was produced. The simple fact is: we cannot produce life in any way, even using all the available molecules and structures that are associated to life on our whole planet. The old fact is still a fact: life comes only from life. Even when Venter engineers his modified genomes, he must put them in a living cell to make them part of a living being. When scientists clone organisms, they must use living cells. You cannot make a living cell from inanimate matter, however biologically structured it is. And yet these people really belive that natural events did generate living cells, from completely unstructured inanimate matter! It is simply folly. I will tell you this: if it were not for the simple ideological necessity that "it must have happened without design, because ours is the only game in town", no serious scientist would ever consider for a moment any of the current theories for OOL. As I have said, they are not even bad scentific theories, They are mere imagination.gpuccio
July 16, 2019
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Silver Asiatic:
Do you think that science can investigate God?
As said many times, I don't discuss God in a scientific context. The correct answer is always the same: science can, and must, investigate, everything that can be observed in reality. And, from observed things, infer ever better models of reality. Given that very broad definition, there are no other limitations.
I believe that design is the ultimate creative act. Design is an action of creation with and for a purpose. It begins as a creative act in a conscious mind – a thought which did not exist before is created for a purpose. This thought is then implemented through various means. But how can there be design without creation? How can a purposeful act occur without it having been created by a mind?
You are equivocating on the meaning of "creation". Of course all actd of design are "creative" in a very general sense. But of course, as everyone can understand, that was not the sense I was using. I was clearly speaking of "creation" in the specific philosophical/religious meaning: generating some reality from nothing. Design is not that. In materila objects, design gives specific configurations to existing matter. I always speak of design according to that definition, that I have given explicitly here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/defining-design/ This definition is the only one that is necessary in ID, because ID infer design from the material object. You speak of a "creative act in a conscious mind". Maybe, maybe not. We have no idea of how thoughts arise in a conscious mind. Moreover, as we are not trying to build a theory of the mind, or of consciousness, we are not interested in that. The process of design begins when some form, already existing in the consciousness of the designer as a representation, is outputted to a material object. That is the process of design. That is what we want to infer from the material object. It is not creation, only the input of a functional configuration to an object.
How are immaterial objects constrained by space and time? What measurements can be performed on immaterial entities?
Energy is not material, yet it exists in space and time. Dark energy is probably not material: indeed, we don't know what it is. Can you say that it cannot exist in relation to space and time? Strange, because it apparently accelerates the expansion of the universe, and that seems to be in relation, very strongly, with space and time. If we can or cannot measure something has nothing to do with the properties of that something. Things don't wait for our measures to be what they are. Our ability to measure things evolves with our understanding of what things are. You quote me saying: "Indeed, ID is not evaluating anything about the designer…" and then you comment:
As I quoted you above ” Science can investigate anything that produces observable facts”, why is not ID evaluating the designer?
This is quote mining of the worst kind. The original statement was: " Indeed, ID is not evaluating anything about the designer, except for what can be inferred by the observable effects of his interventions." Shame on you.
What scientific evidence do you have to show that the designer did not design human consciousness? Where do you think human consciousness comes from?
Again, misinterpretation, maybe intentional. Of course I am speaking of what we can infer according to ID theory, The designer that we infer in ID is the designer of biological information. We infer nothing about the generation of consciousness (I don't use the term design, because as I have explained I speak of design only for materila objects). As said, nobody here is trying to build a theory of consciousness. I have alredy stated clearly that IMO science has no real understanding of what consciousness is, least of all of how it originates. We can treat consciousness as a fact, because it can be directly observed, but we don't understand what it is. Could the designer of ciological objects be also the originator of human consciousness? Maybe. Maybe not. I have nothing to infer an answer. Certainly not in ID theory. Which is what we are discussing here. And certainly I have no duty to show that the designer did not originate human consciousness, or that he did, because I have made absolutely no inferences about the origin of human consciousness. I have only said that we infer a designer for biological objects, not for human cosnciousness.
Again, an algorithm is a process or set of rules used for calculation or programmatic purposes. A designer can create an immaterial algorithm in an agent that acts on biological entities. There could be no direct evidence of such a thing, but the effects of it can be seen in the development of biological organisms.
Again, everything is possible. I am not interested in what is possible, but in what is supported by facts. You use the word "algorithm" to indicate mental contents. I have nothing against that, but it is not the way I use it, and it is of no interest for ID theory. Again, ID theory is about inferring a design origin for some material objects. To do that, we are not interested in what happens in the consciousness of the designer, those are issues for a theory of the mind. We only need to know that the form we oberve in the object originated from some conscious, intelligent and purposeful agent who inputted that form to the object starting from some conscious representation. If the configuration comes directly from a conscious being, design is proved. All thhis discussion about algorithms is because some people here believe that the designer does not design biological objects directly, but rather designs some other object, probably biological, which then after some time, deisgne the new biological objects by aòlgorithmic computation programmed originally by the designer. IOWs, this model assumes that the designer designs, let's call it so, a "biological computer" which then designs (computes) new biological beings. I have said many times that I don't believe in this strange theory, and I have given my reasons to confute it. However, in this theory the algorithm is not a conscious agent who designs: it is a biological machine, IOWs an object. That's why in this discussion I use algorithm to indicate an object that can compute. Again, the algorithm is designed, because it is a configuration given to a biological machine by the designer, a configuration that can make computations. If you want to know if a mental algorithm in a mind is designed, I cannot answer, because I am not discussion a theory of the mind here. Certainly, it is not designed according to my definition, because it is not a material object. ID theory is simple, when people don't try to pretend that it is complicated. We observe some object. We observe the configuration of the object. We ask ourselves if the object is designed, IOWs is the configuration we observe originated as a conscious representation in a conscious agent, and was then inputted purposefully into the object. We define an objective property, functional information, linked to some function that can be implemented using the object and that can be measured. We measure it. If the complexity of the function that can be implemented by the object is great enough, we infer a design origin for the object. That's all.gpuccio
July 16, 2019
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GP Thanks very much. Could you point to the 'humpty dumpty' OP you mentioned?EugeneS
July 16, 2019
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GP @106: Regarding Fig. 1 in the OP: "the figure is there just to give a first general idea of the system" I agree. And it does it very well, specially within the context of the fascinating topic of your OP. Even without the missing information that you listed:
Only two kinds of generic signals and receptors are shown. As we have seen, there are a lot of different specific receptors. The pathways that connect each specific type of receptor to IKK are not shown (they are shown as simple arrows). But they are very complex and specific. I have given some limited information in the OP and in the discussion. Only the canonical pathway is shown. Only the most common type of dimer is shown. Coactivators and interactions with other pathways are not shown or barely mentioned. Of course, lncRNAs are not shown.
the figure has many details that give a convincing idea of functional complexity. Thus, after carefully studying the figure to understand the flow of functional information, you reveal how much is still missing, one can only wonder how would anyone believe that such a system could arise through unguided physio-chemical events.PeterA
July 16, 2019
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GP
design is the configuration of material objects
I mentioned Mozart's symphonies which were designed in his conscious mind. They weren't designed on paper or by musical instruments. Also, if an immaterial entity created other immaterial entities, you would say "that is not an act of purposeful design"?Silver Asiatic
July 16, 2019
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GPuccio Again, thank you for clarifications and even repeating things you stated before. It has been very helpful. I am not fully understanding several of your points which I will illustrate below:
GP Science can investigate anything that produces observable facts. In no way it is limited to “matter”.
Do you think that science can investigate God?
And the designer needs not have “created” anything. Design is not creation.
I believe that design is the ultimate creative act. Design is an action of creation with and for a purpose. It begins as a creative act in a conscious mind - a thought which did not exist before is created for a purpose. This thought is then implemented through various means. But how can there be design without creation? How can a purposeful act occur without it having been created by a mind?
Not having a physical body does not necessarily mean that an entity is not subject to space and time.
How are immaterial objects constrained by space and time? What measurements can be performed on immaterial entities?
Indeed, ID is not evaluating anything about the designer...
As I quoted you above " Science can investigate anything that produces observable facts", why is not ID evaluating the designer?
The designer designs biological information. Not human consciousness, or any other consciousness,
What scientific evidence do you have to show that the designer did not design human consciousness? Where do you think human consciousness comes from?
Not “immaterial algorithms”. design is the configuration of material objects, starting from cosncious representations of the designer.
Again, an algorithm is a process or set of rules used for calculation or programmatic purposes. A designer can create an immaterial algorithm in an agent that acts on biological entities. There could be no direct evidence of such a thing, but the effects of it can be seen in the development of biological organisms.Silver Asiatic
July 16, 2019
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EugeneS: Of course they would never succeed, in an autoclave or elsewhere. I suppose that Darwin's argument was that, in the absence of existing life, the first organic molecules generated (by magic, probably) would have been more stable than what we can expect today. Indeed, today simple organic molecules have very short life in any environment because of existing forms of life. The argument is however irrelevant. The simple truth is that simple organic molecules (Darwin was probably thinking of proteins, today they should be RNA to be fashionable) are completely useless to build life of any form. Let's be serious: even if we take all components, membrane, genome, and so on, for example by disrupting bacteria, and put them together in a test tube, we can never build a living cell. This is the classic humpty dumpty argument, made here time ago, if I remember well, by Sal Cordova. It remains a formidable argument. All reasonings about OOL from inanimate matter are, really, nothing more than fairy tales, They don't even reach the status of bad scientific theories.gpuccio
July 16, 2019
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GP Yes, of course. I agree. I have missed out 'physical'. Maybe, it is a distraction from the thread but anyway. I recall one conversation with a biologist. I had posted something against Darwin's explanation of why we can't see another sort of life emerging. Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that, basically, Darwin claimed that organic compounds that would have easily become life are immediately consumed by the already existing life forms. I was saying that this is a rubbishy argument. But according to my interlocutor, it actually wasn't. My friend said it wss extremely difficult to get rid of life in an experimental setting for abiogenesis. In relation to what we are discussing here, this claim effectively means that the existing life allegedly devours any signs of emerging life as soon as they appear. My answer at the time was, why don't they put their test tubes in an autoclave? He said that this was not so easy as I thought as getting rid of existing life also destroys the organic chemicals, and defeats the purpose. Today, I still strongly believe it is a bad argument but for a different reason, i.e. due to the impossibility of the translation apparatus that relies on a symbolic memory and semiotic closure self-organizing. There is no empirical warrant to back the claim that such self-organization is possible. What do you think about Darwin's argument and, in particular, about the difficulty of creating the right conditions for a clean abiogenesis experiment?EugeneS
July 16, 2019
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GP @108: "Maybe you can look at this more detailed figure for the different stimuli, receptors and receptor connections to the activation pathway: https://rockland-inc.com/nfkb-signaling-pathway.aspx" Oh, no! Wow! OK, you have persuaded me. I'm convinced now. Thanks!PeterA
July 16, 2019
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