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Do we need a context to identify a message as the product of an intelligent being?

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In today’s short post, I shall argue that (a) there are at least some messages which we can identify as the product of an intelligent agent, regardless of their linguistic and social context, and (b) there is no context in which it would be reasonable for us to conclude that a message visible to everyone was a hallucination.

What prompted this discussion

In a post titled Signature in the cell?, Professor Edward Feser argued that no message, in and of itself, could warrant the inference that it was the product of an intelligent agent, without a knowledge of the context of the message. Referring to the hypothetical scenario in which a “Made by Yahweh” message was discovered in every human being’s cells, Feser wrote:

If we’re to judge that Yahweh, rather than extraterrestrial pranksters, hallucination, or some other cause, was behind such an event, it is considerations other than the event itself that will justify us in doing so.

The reference to “hallucination, or some other cause” (presumably a natural one) as a possible explanation for the “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells led me to infer that Feser was acknowledging the legitimacy of a hyper-skeptical stance here – a position for which I criticized him in a subsequent post. Feser wrote a follow-up post in reply, in which he clarified his position:

I neither said nor implied that it would be “perfectly rational” to interpret phrases like the ones in question [e.g. the “Made by Yahweh” message in every cell – VJT] as hallucinations or as something other than a product of intelligence… What I said is that determining what to make of such weird events would crucially depend on epistemic background context, and that if we concluded that God was responsible (as of course we well might), then that epistemic background context would be doing more work in justifying that judgment than the weird events themselves would be.

In a comment attached to a recent post on Professor Feser’s Website, I pressed him to answer two simple questions of mine:

…[A]s an ID theorist, I happen to think it’s absolutely obvious that we can identify some messages as the work of an intelligent designer, regardless of context… From my reading of your [earlier] post, it seemed to me that you were saying that context was essential when drawing the inference that a message was the work of an intelligent agent. I would profoundly disagree.

I’d like to bury the hatchet, so I’ll ask you two questions:

1. Do you agree that if a message saying “Made by _____” were discovered in every human’s cells, it would be irrational to explain away the discovery as a mass hallucination, regardless of whether the message referred to God, Quetzalcoatl, or Steve Jobs as its author?

2. Do you agree that if the message were suitably long and specific (say, 100 characters of perfectly grammatical English with no repetition), it would be irrational not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, regardless of the message’s context?

As we’ll see below, Feser’s answer to both questions was “No.”
Feser replied:

…[O]ther readers have already pointed out what is wrong with your questions. Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be. If we describe various possible contexts in enough detail, we can certainly see how they would make a clear answer possible. That’s why there’s nothing remotely skeptical about what I said. Give us a specific context and sure, we can decide “This suggested interpretation is just indefensible” or “That suggested interpretation is extremely plausible.” But it’s silly to say “Let’s abstract from all context and then ask what the most probable source of the phrase is.” As Mike Flynn pointed out above, there’s no such thing as the most probable source absent all context.

Feser continued:

BTW, Vincent’s attempt to wriggle out of the problem context poses for his position is like certain point-missing attempts to solve the “commonsense knowledge problem” in AI [artificial intelligence – VJT]. As Hubert Dreyfus argues, it makes no sense to think that intelligence can be reduced to a set of explicitly formulated rules and representations, because there are always various context-dependent ways to interpret the rules and representations. To say “Oh, we’ll just put the ‘right’ interpretation into the rules and representations” completely misses the point, since it just adds further rules and representations that are themselves subject to alternative context-dependent interpretations.

Vincent is doing something similar when he tries to come up with these goofy examples of really long messages written in the cell. It completely misses the point, because that’s just further stuff the import of which depends on a larger context. It also completely misses the point to shout “Skepticism!”, just as an AI defender would be completely missing the point if he accused Dreyfus of being a skeptic. There’s nothing skeptical about it. We can know what the context is and thus we can know what the right interpretation is; we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context.

What is a context, anyway?

Remarkably, nowhere in his post does Professor Feser attempt to define what he means by a context – a curious omission. So I’m going to go with a standard dictionary definition: “the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.” I should mention that there is another definition for context: “the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.” However, in the case under consideration, we are looking at a short isolated message, with nothing preceding or following it. So the questions we need to confront are: do we need to attend to “the circumstances that form the setting” for the purported message, in order to rationally conclude that it is (a) not a collective hallucination we are all having, and (b) from an intelligent source? Feser contends that we do, and I maintain that we do not.

Feser’s absurd epistemic claim: there are some contexts in which hallucination may be a reasonable explanation for the discovery of a purported message in every human’s cells

I’d like to go back to a remark Feser made above:

Of course context would be relevant to interpreting such messages. Now, I can easily imagine contexts in which it would be extremely unreasonable to say “Oh, this is a hallucination” and I can easily imagine contexts in which it would not be.

What Feser is saying here is that there are at least some contexts in which it would not be unreasonable [i.e. it might be reasonable] for us to conclude that a purported message discovered by scientists in every human being’s cells was in fact a hallucination. This, I have to say, is outright nonsense.

In order to see why it’s nonsense, let’s imagine a scenario which is as generous to Professor Feser’s case as it is possible to be. Let’s suppose that a worldwide magnetic storm is playing havoc with people’s brains, causing them to hallucinate. It has been claimed that magnetic stimulation of the brain can trigger religious hallucinations, although the evidence for this claim is very thin. But let’s suppose for argument’s sake that this claim is true. During the magnetic storm, some scientists suddenly announce the discovery of a “Made by Yahweh” message in every human being’s cells. Other scientists around the world rush to confirm the claim. Could they all be seeing things in their laboratories? Could mass hallucination be a rational explanation for this sudden discovery of what appears to be a message in our cells?

No, it couldn’t – unless all the world’s scientists have not only started hallucinating, but lost their ability to reason, as well. But that wasn’t the scenario envisaged by Feser: his assertion that he can imagine at least some contexts where it would not be unreasonable to conclude that a purported message was a hallucination presupposes that the people drawing this conclusion still possess the use of reason, even in these far-fetched contexts.

One obvious way in which scientists could confirm that the message was real – even during a magnetic storm that was playing havoc with their perceptions – would be to use double-blind testing, with a control sample of similar-looking cells (say, synthetic cells, or perhaps cells from another species) that did not contain the “Made by Yahweh” message. (A control sample of synthetic cells might contain no message at all, or alternatively, a different message – “Made by Craig Venter” – might be inserted into the cells.) If testing on different scientists produced consistent results – e.g. if they all reported seeing the same message in the same cells – then the hallucination hypothesis would be decisively ruled out, as an explanation.

Interpretation is not the same thing as decoding: why the commonsense knowledge problem is irrelevant to the Intelligent Design project

In his reply to my questions, Feser alluded to the work of AI researcher Hubert Dreyfus, who in a book titled Mind over Machine (Free Press, 1986) which he co-authored with Stuart Dreyfus, defined the commonsense knowledge problem as “how to store and access all the facts human beings seem to know” (1986, p. 78). As Wikipedia notes, “The problem is considered to be among the hardest in all of AI research because the breadth and detail of commonsense knowledge is enormous.”

As we’ve seen, Feser contends that because the correct interpretation of a rule invariably requires contextual knowledge, any attempt to infer that a purported message is in fact the product of an intelligent agent, apart from all context, is doomed to failure. But what Feser is assuming here is that the identification of a purported message as the work of an intelligent agent requires a correct interpretation of that message. As an Intelligent Design advocate, I disagree: all it requires is the decoding of that message, and it may not even require that. (If the message could be independently shown to be both highly specific and astronomically improbable, I believe it would be rational to infer on these grounds alone that an intelligent agent was most likely responsible for producing the alleged message, even if we had no idea what it was about.) Hence Professor Feser’s assertion that “we just can’t know the right interpretation apart from all context” is beside the point.

Decoding a message is very easy, if it is written in the script of a language we already understand: all we need to do is read each word of the script and confirm that it conforms to the grammatical and spelling rules of the language in question. Depending on the language in question, the code we use when reading the words – something we all learned to do at school – may be either a phonic code (for alphabetic scripts), a syllabic code, a logographic code (for ideograms) or a pictographic code. Even if sentence turns out to be grammatically correct, but semantically nonsensical, like Noam Chomsky’s “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously”, decoding it is still a relatively straightforward affair. And if we found such a message inscribed on the walls of every human cell, we should have no hesitation in concluding that some intelligent agent was responsible, even if we didn’t know who that agent was.

(Note: I should like to make it clear that I do not regard people’s ability to read texts written in their own native language as part of the context of a purported message in that language. Defining “context” in this way would make the term absurdly broad. Rather, I would see the ability to read a language as a presupposition of there being any messages in that language at all. The term “context” refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message, and does not include the ability to decode a script.)

Decoding a message is harder when it is written in a language we understand, but where the message is encrypted, using a cipher. In such cases, we might think that at least some background knowledge was essential, in order to decode the message. However, there have been occasions when ciphers were reconstructed through the power of pure deduction – for example, the German Lorenz cipher and the Japanese Purple code. Having successfully decoded the message, it would be the very height of irrationality not to ascribe the message to an intelligent agent, even if we knew nothing of the message’s context. For instance, the message might say, “The weather is sunny,” but in spy-talk that might really mean: “The coast is clear: we can proceed with our plan.” But even if we had no idea of the message’s true import, we could still legitimately infer that it originated from an intelligent source, once we had decoded it.

When the message is written in an unknown language, decoding is complicated by the mathematical fact that there’s always some cipher that can be used to transform an unknown message into any string of English characters you want. This point was made by one of my critics, named Scott, who argued: “100 characters of perfectly grammatical English wouldn’t look like any such thing to anyone who didn’t already read English. For that matter, given a hundred of anything, there’s some cipher according to which the series encodes any 100-character string you care to choose.” In practice, successful decoding of scripts in unknown languages, such as Linear A (used in Crete over 3,000 years ago), relies heavily on context-related clues. The question then arises: what should we conclude if astronauts found what appeared to be an inscription in an unknown language on the Moon or Mars? Without a context of any sort, could we still make the inference that the inscription came from an intelligent source?

I believe we can. A simple illustration will suffice. In 2013, two scientists writing in the journal Icarus argued that there were patterns in the genetic code of living organisms that were highly statistically significant, with features indicative of intelligence which were inconsistent with any known natural process. (The authors of the paper, Vladimir I. Cherbak of al-Farabi Kazakh National University of Kazakhstan, and Maxim A. Makukov of the Fesenkov Astrophysical Institute, list several categories of natural processes, and they are clearly familiar with the relevant scientific literature on the subject.) “Simple arrangements of the code reveal an ensemble of arithmetical and ideographical patterns of symbolic language,” they wrote. These features included decimal notation, logical transformation and the abstract symbol zero. Summing up, the authors argued:

In total, not only the signal itself reveals intelligent-like features – strict nucleon equalities, their decimal notation, logical transformation accompanying the equalities, the symbol of zero and semantic symmetries, but the very method of its extraction involved abstract operations – consideration of idealized (free and unmodified) molecules, distinction between their blocks and chains, the activation key, contraction and decomposition of codons. We find that taken together all these aspects point at artificial nature of the patterns.

The authors tentatively concluded that the decimal system in the genetic code “was invented outside the Solar System already several billions (sic) years ago.” (H/t: Max for correction to my wording.)

Regardless of whether the authors’ claims turn out to be true or not – and I’m not holding my breath – the point is that the identification of the signal they claimed to find in our genetic code was made on purely mathematical grounds, apart from all considerations of context. In order to rule out a natural (as opposed to artificial) source for the message, the only thing the authors needed to ascertain was whether it could be accounted for by known natural causes. One could always hypothesize the existence of a natural cause capable of generating these mathematical features, but the authors argue that the only reasonable inference to draw is that the signal they claim to find in the genetic code is an artificial one, generated by an intelligent source.

(I should point out here that our knowledge of what natural processes are capable of generating is not contextual knowledge, but scientific knowledge. As I stated above, the term “context” properly refers to circumstances that help us understand the meaning of a message. Our knowledge of processes occurring in Nature does not help us to do that.)

I conclude, then, that Professor Feser’s contention that the identification of a purported message as the product of an intelligent source cannot be made, apart from all context, is baseless and incorrect. I hope that Professor Feser will be gracious enough to acknowledge this in the future.

Comments
RDFish, Q: How does the cheetah run so fast? A: Athleticism!
Nice try. If athleticism has a defined set of properties, it is perfectly reasonable to ask which is more athletic a cheetah or a sloth. Athleticism does have a fairly well defined set of properties. Look it up. The form of your question is analogous to: Q: Why is a smart person smart? A: Intelligence Which of course explains nothing because being smart is a property of being intelligent by definition. But when a term has a defined set of properties, and intelligence certain does have a fairly well defined set, then it is perfectly reasonable to ask: Q: Who is more intelligent, Mike, who has severe down syndrome retardation, or Joe, who has a PhD in math from Harvard? A: JoeVishnu
August 17, 2014
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A.B. "Based in this definition, god must be ruled out as a possible designer. Why would an omnipotent, all knowing being need to learn?" Oddly enough, based on that definition, blind undirected mystic forces are in desperate need of an explanation on how exactly they learned and accomplished anything even remotely intelligent or for that matter became self-aware from nothing in order to do so. But first, let's start with your purposefully retarded asinine assumption here about the Creator, which not even a religious person knows.DavidD
August 17, 2014
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K: "Intelligence – Wikipedia aptly and succinctly defines: “capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn.” . . . ." Based in this definition, god must be ruled out as a possible designer. Why would an omnipotent, all knowing being need to learn?Acartia_bogart
August 17, 2014
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RDFish:
ID rests on the assumption of libertarianism
Reference please. We all know how you love to make stuff up and act as if it is real.Joe
August 17, 2014
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PS: On the ignore and willfully caricature policy cf Mung here, in light of the original post and discussion thread where I took on a delimited subset of RDF's remarks, his inaccurate and strawmannish mischaracterisation of ID.kairosfocus
August 17, 2014
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SB: I define intelligent activity scientifically as a selection among alternatives for a specific purpose, which can be interpreted philosophically either as personal contra-causal free will or impersonal immanent teleology.
I’m not sure what you mean by the latter, but just as you say, these are NOT scientific definitions, because according to science, we have never detected anything that acts contra-causally.
You cannot grasp the difference between a philosophical interpretation of a scientific definition and a philosophical definition posing as a scientific definition? Further, where did you ever get the absurd idea that something must be "detected" or even exist in order to be defined?StephenB
August 17, 2014
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kairosfocus on RDF
What is more interesting is how you switch from an empirical inference to projection of a phil assumption you reject while ignoring something that is easily empirically and analytically verifiable. Which, strongly implicates that the root problem we face is ideological, driven and/or influenced by a priori evolutionary materialism [perhaps by the back door of methodological impositions] and/or its fellow travellers.
Yes, well stated. We also have this rather large problem of RDF's proclivity to use words like "definition" and "assumption" interchangeably for the apparent purpose of creating the wrong impression. I define a unicorn as a horse with a horn projecting out from its forehead. That doesn't mean that I assume unicorns exist.StephenB
August 17, 2014
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RDF
As for your obsession with my use of the term in other threads, I’ve already explained what I meant. I understand you’d like to change the subject and focus on that instead of providing a definition of intelligence that is consistent and empirically accesible for ID, but it won’t help.
As I made clear, indeed, as I proved, you don't know what you meant. You were just throwing words around for effect. I don't blame you for wanting to avoid the subject.
Your definition implies that there is a qualitative difference between a river making a selection and a person making a selection, because the former is determined and the latter is not
. My explanation of the definition, which you asked for, (not the definition itself) implies that there is a difference, which of course, there is. Only a materialist would think that a river makes selections the way humans do, which is why no one believes you when you say you are not a materialist.
This is nothing but a claim that contra-causal free will is true, no matter how you true to spin it.
ID's scientific definition of intelligence falls short of contra-causal free will; my philosophical definition of intelligence is identical with contra-causal free will. That is why some atheists, like Bradely Monton and Bill Gates, can accept ID science, while neither person would ever agree with my philosophy. Somehow, you cannot grasp these distinctions.
Therefore, according to your definition of “intelligence”, ID rests on the assumption of libertarianism, an unprovable metaphysical assumption.
That is a serious logical error. Even If ID defined intelligence as contra-causal free will, which it doesn't, it wouldn't follow that ID assumes contra-causal free will. A definition is not an assumption. Definition the act of making definite, distinct, or clear; a defining : We need a better definition of her responsibilities. the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, idiom, etc., as found in dictionaries. Assumption a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof. "they made certain assumptions about the market" synonyms: supposition, presumption, belief, expectation, conjecture, speculation, surmise, guess, premise, hypothesis; More ------------------------------------------------------------ You have a serious problem understanding the meanings of the words you use (such as "intelligence," "Intelligent activity," "definition," "assumption,") which I why I have no difficulty at all showing that you often don't know what you are saying. Or, if you do understand the meanings of the words you are using, such as "definition" and "assumption," then you are willfully saying things that you know are not true. So, I have to ask the question: When you say that ID "assumes" contra-causal free will, is it because you are confused about the meanings of words, or is it because you choose to lie? I really want to know.StephenB
August 17, 2014
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RDF: While it is clear that you are studiously ignoring, I find it important to speak for record:
ID rests on the assumption of libertarianism, an unprovable metaphysical assumption
This characterisation of SB's reasoning is false to the full set of options he puts on the table, but I leave answering that to SB. What is more interesting is how you switch from an empirical inference to projection of a phil assumption you reject while ignoring something that is easily empirically and analytically verifiable. Which, strongly implicates that the root problem we face is ideological, driven and/or influenced by a priori evolutionary materialism [perhaps by the back door of methodological impositions] and/or its fellow travellers. First, intelligence is a summary term for the underlying capacity of certain observed beings to emit characteristic behaviours, most notably to generate FSCO/I in its various forms. For example as your posts in this thread demonstrate, you understand and express yourself in textual language in accord with well known specifications of written English. It can be shown that it is extremely implausible for blind chance and/or mechanical necessity to stumble upon zones of FSCO/I in the sea of possible configurations, once we pass 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity. Where as 3-d descriptions of complex functional objects can easily be reduced to strings [cf. AutoCAD etc], discussion on strings is WLOG. At no point in years of discussion have you ever satisfactorily addressed this easily shown point. (cf. here.) Despite your skepticism, the above is sufficient to responsibly accept the significance of intelligence per a basic description and/or examples such as humans and dam-building beavers or even flint-knapping fire-using omelette-cooking chimps -- there is at least one such. Then there was a certain bear who was a private in the Polish Army during WW II. Etc. Being human is obviously neither necessary to nor sufficient for being intelligent. Nor for that matter -- given the significance of fine tuning of our observed cosmos from its origin, would it be wise to demand embodiment in a material form. Where also, it has been sufficiently pointed out -- whether or no you are inclined to accept such -- that a computational material substrate is not enough to account for insightful, self-aware rational contemplation. We should not ideologically lock out possibilities. Where also, the notion of "proof" -- as opposed to warrant per inference to best explanation -- is also material. In both science and serious worldviews discussion, IBE is more reasonable as a criterion of reasonableness than demonstrative proof on premises acceptable to all rational individuals etc. The projection of such a demand while one implicitly clings to a set of a prioris that are at least as subject to comparative difficulties challenge is selective hyperskepticism. So, already we see a functional framework for identifying the attribute intelligence and using it as an empirically founded concept. One that is in fact a generally acknowledged commonplace. Let me again cite Wiki, via the UD WACs and Glossary as at 206 above . . . which of course you ignored:
Intelligence – Wikipedia aptly and succinctly defines: “capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn.” . . . . Chance – undirected contingency. That is, events that come from a cluster of possible outcomes, but for which there is no decisive evidence that they are directed; especially where sampled or observed outcomes follow mathematical distributions tied to statistical models of randomness. (E.g. which side of a fair die is uppermost on tossing and tumbling then settling.) Contingency – here, possible outcomes that (by contrast with those of necessity) may vary significantly from case to case under reasonably similar initial conditions. (E.g. which side of a die is uppermost, whether it has been loaded or not, upon tossing, tumbling and settling.). Contingent [as opposed to necessary] beings begin to exist (and so are caused), need not exist in all possible worlds, and may/do go out of existence. Necessity — here, events that are triggered and controlled by mechanical forces that (together with initial conditions) reliably lead to given – sometimes simple (an unsupported heavy object falls) but also perhaps complicated — outcomes. (Newtonian dynamics is the classical model of such necessity.) In some cases, sensitive dependence on [or, “to”] initial conditions may leads to unpredictability of outcomes, due to cumulative amplification of the effects of noise or small, random/ accidental differences between initial and intervening conditions, or simply inevitable rounding errors in calculation. This is called “chaos.” Design — purposefully directed contingency. That is, the intelligent, creative manipulation of possible outcomes (and usually of objects, forces, materials, processes and trends) towards goals. (E.g. 1: writing a meaningful sentence or a functional computer program. E.g. 2: loading of a die to produce biased, often advantageous, outcomes. E.g. 3: the creation of a complex object such as a statue, or a stone arrow-head, or a computer, or a pocket knife.) . . . . Intelligent design [ID] – Dr William A Dembski, a leading design theorist, has defined ID as “the science that studies signs of intelligence.” That is, as we ourselves instantiate [thus exemplify as opposed to “exhaust”], intelligent designers act into the world, and create artifacts. When such agents act, there are certain characteristics that commonly appear, and that – per massive experience — reliably mark such artifacts. It it therefore a reasonable and useful scientific project to study such signs and identify how we may credibly reliably infer from empirical sign to the signified causal factor: purposefully directed contingency or intelligent design . . .
Indeed, on just this it is you who have a burden of warranting dismissal of the concept. Where also, design can be summed up as intelligently directed contingency that evidently targets a goal, which may be functional, communicative etc. We easily see this from text strings in this thread and the PCs etc we are using to interact. Again, empirically well founded. So, the concept of intelligent design is a reasonable one, and FSCO/I as reliable sign thereof is also reasonable. In that context the sort of rhetorical resorts now being championed by objectors actually indicate the strength of the design inference argument. Had it been empirically poorly founded, it would long since have been decisively undermined on those grounds. The resort instead to debating meanings of widely understood terms and the like is inadvertently revealing. But also, this is clearly also a worldviews level issue. So, I again highlight from Reppert (cf. here on) on why it is highly reasonable to point to a sharp distinction between ground-consequent rational inference and blindly mechanical cause effect chains involved in the operation of a computational substrate such as a brain and CNS are:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
Unless we are sufficiently intelligent to understand and infer based on meanings, and unless we are also fr4ee enough to follow rational implications or inferences rather than simply carry out GIGO-limited computational cause-effect chains, rationality itself collapses. So, any system of thought that undermines rationality through computational reductionism, or through dismissing responsible rational freedom is delusional and self referentially incoherent. You may wish to dismissively label responsible freedom as "contra-causal free will," or the like and dismiss such as "unprovable." That is of no effective consequence to the fact of responsible rational freedom that is not plausibly explained on blindly mechanical and/or stochastic computation. Which last is a condition of even participating in a real discussion -- I dare to say, a meeting of minds. That is, we again see the fallacy of trying to get North by heading due West. It is time to reform and renew our thinking again in our civilisation, given the patent self-refutation of the ever so dominant evolutionary materialism. As Haldane pointed out so long ago now:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
It is time for fresh, sound thinking. KFkairosfocus
August 17, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
I define intelligent activity scientifically as a selection among alternatives for a specific purpose, which can be interpreted philosophically either as personal contra-causal free will or impersonal immanent teleology.
I'm not sure what you mean by the latter, but just as you say, these are NOT scientific definitions, because according to science, we have never detected anything that acts contra-causally. As for your obsession with my use of the term in other threads, I've already explained what I meant. I understand you'd like to change the subject and focus on that instead of providing a definition of intelligence that is consistent and empirically accesible for ID, but it won't help. Your definition implies that there is a qualitative difference between a river making a selection and a person making a selection, because the former is determined and the latter is not. This is nothing but a claim that contra-causal free will is true, no matter how you true to spin it. Therefore, according to your definition of "intelligence", ID rests on the assumption of libertarianism, an unprovable metaphysical assumption. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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Hi Vishnu,
Well of course “athleticism” is a useful explanation even when it’s not nailed down with the hyper precision you’re seeking.
Most ID folks deny the analogy, but you accept the analogy and insist that athleticsm is actually a valid explanation. Wow! Q: How does the cheetah run so fast? A: Athleticism! What have we learned about about cheetahs by receiving this answer, Vishnu? And how about this: We see something that is nothing like anything we've seen before moving quickly across the sky. We ask how it manages to move so quickly, and we answer athleticism. What in that case (a case analogous to ID, where the nature of the Designer is unknown) do we learn by saying athleticsm is the answer?
Now, without all the usual whining, which animal is more athletic, a cheetah or a sloth?
First, ID does not compare different levels of intelligence - it treats intelligence as a binary quality. Even so, your example proves my point, not yours: If the event is "hanging from trees", then sloths are clearly the better athlete of course, since cheetahs can only hold on for a short time and sloths can even sleep without letting go.
Which animal possesses more athleticism, a cheetah or a sloth? Pick one.
You tell me - remember, the event is "hanging from trees". (And none of your whining!) Now do you get it? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 17, 2014
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sorry, I meant 'Mung' @228DavidD
August 16, 2014
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Mund: "Isn’t this ground that’s been travelled before with RDFish? RDFish knows what RDFish means by intelligence until RDFish doesn’t know what RDFish means by intelligence." ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ LOL, That's the exact take & observation Phillip Skell had with Darwinian explanations "Darwinian explanations for such things are often too supple: Natural selection makes humans self-centered and aggressive – except when it makes them altruistic and peaceable. Or natural selection produces virile men who eagerly spread their seed – except when it prefers men who are faithful protectors and providers. When an explanation is so supple that it can explain any behavior, it is difficult to test it experimentally, much less use it as a catalyst for scientific discovery."DavidD
August 16, 2014
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Hoping VJT will be back today/tomorrow. VT Torley @36:
Mung would argue that the knowledge that the botanist brings to the case constitutes “context.” I don’t think it does, as the knowledge in question is not knowledge about senders and receivers, or about the meaning of messages, but botanical knowledge about the natural world.
And I think you are both mistaken and contradicting yourself. :) The naturalist in this case is the sender of a message. The bottle is the carrier of the message, the plant specimen is the content of the message. None of this has anything at all to do with how the "message" will be interpreted upon receipt, or if it will even be recognized as a message. Whether it will be recognizable as a message would require contextual information. The meaning of the message would also require contextual information. And that's the point. VJ Torley @10:
But as I explained in my post, even if the sentence didn’t make sense (e.g. “Colorless green ideas sleep furiously”), we would still ascribe it to an intelligent source, simply because it was perfectly grammatical.
We can here identify at least two contexts that are required in order for this "message" to be ascribed to an intelligent source. English language words and English language grammar. I put "message" in quotes because I find it difficult, if not impossible, to ascribe the term "message" to nonsense. If it makes no sense it is not a message. The purpose of a message is to communicate. It's not possible to communicate via nonsense. VJ Torley @11:
...all I was concerned to argue was that the identification of a message from an intelligent source did not require a context.
That is what I understood you to be saying. But if you read through the posts of your defenders in this thread, they appear to think you were making a different argument entirely. (Or they chose to ignore your argument in order to argue againt Feser's position.) VJ Torley @35:
The proposal which I’m making is that while some knowledge of the context is required in order to recognize that some arrangement of matter and/or energy, in fact, contains a message, no knowledge of the context is required in order to infer that some arrangement of matter and/or energy is, in fact, the product of an intelligent agent.
VJ Torley @36:
In my post, I defined the context of a purported message as “the circumstances that form the setting” for the purported message, and that help us understand its significance.
So now you are saying that context is required to identify this or that as a message. Is that a change from your earlier position? VJ Torley @11:
...all I was concerned to argue was that the identification of a message from an intelligent source did not require a context.
The identification of a message requires a context. The determination of whether or not the source of that message is intelligent requires further context. We seem to have reached agreement on the first but not the second. VJ Torley @35:
The proposal which I’m making is that while some knowledge of the context is required in order to recognize that some arrangement of matter and/or energy, in fact, contains a message, no knowledge of the context is required in order to infer that some arrangement of matter and/or energy is, in fact, the product of an intelligent agent.
No knowledge of the context is required in order to infer that some arrangement of matter and/or energy is, in fact, the product of an intelligent agent. That was your initial position. Has it changed? Did you mean to say no additional context is required? Some knowledge of the context is required in order to recognize that some arrangement of matter and/or energy, in fact, contains a message. I find it difficult to resolve those two positions. Can you clarify? Do you mean that once we know we have a message we know it came from an intelligent source? Or do you mean that even if we don't know we have a message we can still infer an intelligent source?Mung
August 16, 2014
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Vishnu. You suggest that athleticism is well understood by people. I think that the use of this term is broadly open to interpretation. Is a linebacker an athlete or just someone who is big and strong? Does the presence of strength alone make someone an athlete? What about baseball pitchers? They can throw a ball very hard, but does that make them an athlete? Is a goon in hockey an athlete? What about a professional pool player? They don't have to be physically fit but they have to have good reflexes, muscle control and an innate understanding of geometry and physics. Would you consider an entity that could think abstractly and problem solve intelligent if it was not self aware? What about an entity that could design and build complex structures but could not think abstractly or problem solve?Acartia_bogart
August 16, 2014
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Hi Upright Biped, I don’t know where you found that quote, but I believe that in that context, by “intelligent activity” RDFish meant “the action of human beings or other animals”. Since RDFish provides no canonical definitions for such terms, both RDFish proponents and RDFish critics use them to mean all sorts of different things – which is one of my primary criticisms of RDFish. Isn't this ground that's been travelled before with RDFish? RDFish knows what RDFish means by intelligence until RDFish doesn't know what RDFish means by intelligence.Mung
August 16, 2014
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I wonder how energy is a scientific concept and intelligence isn't. Manfred Eigen:
Mass-energy is "everything" that constitutes the physical structure of our universe. However, when asked what "that stuff", which manifests itself in such diverse and mutually intertransformable appearances, really is, science replies with an embarrassed silence. We know how to measure it, but we simply do not know what it is. To quote Richard Feynman, from his legendary The Feynman Lectures on Physics: "It is important to realize that in physics, today, we have no knowledge of what energy is."
Eigen:
Hence, what we can say so far is: we do not know what energy is. It must be "something" of a universal nature that appears in material and non-material forms and has the propensity to distribute itself among all states that are accessible without losing or gaining one iota; the amount of energy is perfectly accountable for.
So why should information be any different? Can science tell us what information is? Eigen:
Similarly, when matter advanced to animation it had to start with a convergence of entropy to specify information that carries meaning. Energy and information are the two irreducible prerequisites of our existence.
Intelligence: The ability to harness energy (whatever that is) in order to produce information (whatever that is).Mung
August 16, 2014
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Let's see how a little rhetorical colouring through loaded words transforms the meaning of energy:
a vague descriptive term referring to particular, unspecified abilities that may include things such as learning, solving novel problems, using natural language, composing music, [being able to be converted into work, being conserved and dissipated in events] and so on and so on
or, information:
a vague descriptive term referring to particular, unspecified abilities that may include things such as learning, solving novel problems, using natural language, composing music, [being the stuff conveyed in messages, being linked to surprise, possibly being at stake in the dissipation of entropy )another rather unclear term once we ask what it is, really)] and so on and so on
In short, the issue is not attitude but substance. And, I am sure RDF knows that metrics for intelligence have been created. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2014
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By the way, RD, my definition plugs in to your statement very nicely: “In our uniform and repeated experience, CSI-rich systems invariably arise from a process by which an intelligent agent makes selections for a purpose, and thus there is a low a priori likelihood that CSI-rich systems have arisen by other means” LOL. My definition, which was already on the record, makes your claim intelligible, and your definition, which was specially crafted to clarify your claim, makes it incomprehensible.StephenB
August 16, 2014
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RDF:
Yes, this helps, and it is of course what I expected you to say. You deny that a river makes a selection, because rivers’ actions are determined by natural laws – in other words, they do not possess free will. Despite your denials – and your apparent genuine incomprehension of your own assumptions – you identify intelligent activity with contra-causal free will.
I define intelligent activity scientifically as a selection among alternatives for a specific purpose, which can be interpreted philosophically either as personal contra-causal free will or impersonal immanent teleology. Philosophically, I hold to personal contra-causal free will and reject impersonal, immanent teleology, but my philosophical preference does not intrude on my scientific definition, which must exclude all philosophical presumptions. I really wish you could grasp that point. RDF's definition of intelligent activity
A vague descriptive term referring to particular, unspecified abilities that may include things such as learning, solving novel problems, using natural language, composing music, and so on and so on.
Well, that's all well and good except for the fact that your definition of the word doesn't match your application of the word: “In our uniform and repeated experience, CSI-rich systems invariably arise from intelligent activity, and thus there is a low a priori likelihood that CSI-rich systems have arisen by other means”. If you plug your definition in to your application, here is what you get: “In our uniform and repeated experience, CSI-rich systems invariably arise from a vague descriptive term referring to particular, unspecified abilities that may include things such as learning, solving novel problems, using natural language, composing music, and so on and so on and thus there is a low a priori likelihood that CSI-rich systems have arisen by other means”. Would you care to try again with a new definition that makes sense with your argument.StephenB
August 16, 2014
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RDFish:
You pretend that I am stupid and crazy,...
YOU might be pretending to be stupid or crazy but we don't pretend that you are. I can support the claim the you are willfully ignorant. ID is a scientific endeavor because it makes testable claims and for example, endeavors to figure out the reality behind our existence.Joe
August 16, 2014
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Or, if you prefer the nounal/property form vs the adjectival... Which animal possesses more athleticism, a cheetah or a sloth? Pick one.Vishnu
August 16, 2014
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RDFish, Now, without all the usual whining, which animal is more athletic, a cheetah or a sloth? Pick one.Vishnu
August 16, 2014
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RDFish, Last night I went over dozens of posts you've made in the last 12 months. I think someone should create a compendium and let your words speak for themselves in contrast with themselves. I don't have the time. Take for example:
Like “athleticism”, “intelligence” is a vague descriptive term. “Athleticism” refers to various primarily physical abilities (running, jumping, lifting, throwing, etc), and “intelligence” refers to various primarily mental abilities (learning, solving novel problems, using natural language, etc). Neither of these terms are suitable as explanations for anything, and they are never used as explanations for anything – except in ID.
Well of course "athleticism" is a useful explanation even when it's not nailed down with the hyper precision you're seeking. "Dad, why can uncle Joe play football better than you? Because he's a better athelete." That's a perfectly reasonable answer. My son knows exactly what I mean because my son knows that an "athelete" (someone who possesses "athleticism") is someone who spends time at the gym, plays sports, develops his muscles, eats the right stuff, and has a passion for sports. The word is not vacuuous. Neither is "intelligence" despite your whining to the contrary. Whatever intelligence is, there are several common features that most reasonable men can agree on to the degree that it is not vacuous in scientific exploration. Get over it. This has been explained to you over and over but it doesn't stick. So yes, I think you've got a problem. Either you cannot grasp what others are saying, or you're in denial, or your a troll. It really doesn't matter which.Vishnu
August 16, 2014
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Hi Vishnu, You pretend that I am stupid and crazy, but I am neither. If you're going to spend time here reading my posts and writing your own, doesn't it at least make sense to try and actually understand my arguments? Of course I don't think rivers are conscious entities that make decisions like people. My point to StephenB was that his understanding of "intelligence" is what philosophers call "contra-causal" (or "libertarian") free will. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 16, 2014
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Hi StephenB,
Rivers and lightning bolts do not make selections because they slavishly obey the laws of nature, which remove all other options, including the prospect of making a selection. Does that help?
Yes, this helps, and it is of course what I expected you to say. You deny that a river makes a selection, because rivers' actions are determined by natural laws - in other words, they do not possess free will. Despite your denials - and your apparent genuine incomprehension of your own assumptions - you identify intelligent activity with contra-causal free will. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
August 16, 2014
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Like the detectives down at the police station like to say, let a man jabber on long enough, and he'll eventually give himself away.Vishnu
August 16, 2014
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RDFish: Yes, they do make selections. A river could choose any path to the sea, but of all the possible paths, it selects the lowest one.
How could a river choose or select any path to the sea? Folks, I think we're all getting to the bottom of RDFish's incoherence. Astonishing.Vishnu
August 16, 2014
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SB: My definition did not change nor does it include rivers or lightning bolts. Rivers and lighting bolts do not make selections. But thank you for playing. RDF
Yes, they do make selections. A river could choose any path to the sea, but of all the possible paths, it selects the lowest one. Instead of just insisting that these are not “selections”, you’ll need to actually explain why not.
Unbelievable! RDF thinks that rivers and lightning bolts make selections. Why does he make such a ridiculous statement? Obviously, he is trying to undermine the perfectly logical point that an intelligent agent makes selections for a purpose, distinguishable from the law-like regularity of nature--a distinction which he cannot bear to contemplate. So, he attributes human-like qualities to physical phenomena--as if rivers and lightning bolts could conduct a cost-benefit analysis--as if they could conceive a strategy in support of a goal--as if gravity was not making their choices for them. Now RDF wants me to explain why these physical changes are not selections. All right, I will be happy to help him out here. Rivers and lightning bolts do not make selections because they slavishly obey the laws of nature, which remove all other options, including the prospect of making a selection. Does that help?StephenB
August 16, 2014
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Kairosfocus, Great comments as usual!
Want of a precising or genus-difference definition is not a good basis for saying something is meaningless. And, intelligence is like that.
A reasonable working definition is sufficient. Scientific progress, like engineering, advances by successive approximation.
And no, I will not bring in relativistic effects save to note that E = mc^2 appears as a consequence of relativity on motion as a zero velocity energy term
One derivation simply substitutes in the relativistic change in mass. Thanks for the link to the economic paper---looks interesting! I've often wondered why what is consumed doesn't get more attention. For example, one society buys mostly lattes and ice cream, another one personal computers and other technology, and so on. A historian, maybe it was Toynbee, compared ancient Boeotia, a happy agrarian society, with Athens, forced into sea trade by a lack of anything significant beyond olives, goats, and rocks. -QQuerius
August 16, 2014
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