Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evidence Against Chance and Necessity (Also Known As Darwinism) is Evidence for Design

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In another thread, poster madsen presented the following challenge:

I’m holding out hope that the next post will concern positive evidence for ID rather than more critiques of Darwin.

In mathematics there is a method of proof called “proof by contradiction.” The logic behind this proof is the following: Establish two possible alternatives. Assume that one of the alternatives is true, and prove it to be logically contradictory. A superb example of proof by contradiction is Euclid’s (circa 300 BC) proof that the number of primes is infinite.

Let’s apply the method of proof by contradiction to the chance-and-necessity versus design debate.

Of course, this is not a mathematical model, but there are some very illuminating similarities. There are two options: 1) design (foresight and planning), and 2) the materialistic laws of physics, chemistry, and probability – which are purported to have produced all biological phenomena, from the information-processing machinery of the cell to the human mind.

Option 2) might have been believable in the 19th century, when it was thought that life was fundamentally simple, but it is completely unsupportable in light of modern science. The preponderance of scientific evidence and mathematical analysis weighs overwhelming in support of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Let us not hear about “self-organization.” Sodium chloride forms salt crystals, and water freezes into snowflakes, but salt crystals and snowflakes contain no information (other than that about how the molecules mechanically interact as they coalesce), and they certainly don’t form information-processing machinery.

Of course, there is always the possibility that there is a third option, besides design versus chance and necessity, but I’d like to hear it. In the meantime, logic, evidence, and mathematics weigh heavily on the side of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Comments
Arthur: The alert level was just lowered, but area restrictions are still strong. Driving my wife back home, we observed ol smoky protesting the reduction, pluming away strongly for the first time in a while. I guess he did get into the locally made Volcano Rum stocks for the St Pat's day after all. Oh well . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
08:37 PM
8
08
37
PM
PDT
DonaldM,
Forgive me, but this appears to be just grasping at straws. It is irrelevant when, where, how, who or why the design occurred.
In the case of the bulldozer example, it is entirely relevant to consider over what time period and how it was constructed, however. I take your point that the time at which it was designed is unimportant. As the bulldozer was clearly constructed from scratch in one step or generation, the only alternative to design is a tornado in a junkyard scenario, which is virtually impossible. On the other hand, a bird is the product of a millions-of-years long process. I am not forced to posit its origin in a single step. Why is it not possible that this bird belongs to a sequence of organisms in which this "specified complexity" you refer to increased over time, and that at some point in the distant past, its remote ancestor's specified complexity was below whatever threshold you use for inferring design?madsen
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
03:24 PM
3
03
24
PM
PDT
Arthur, Take a basic biology course and look for the transcription and translation process.jerry
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
03:05 PM
3
03
05
PM
PDT
jerry [182],
Utterly wrong. You were told what to google for.
Wha??? I was told what to google for? I have no idea what you're talking about. I mentioned earlier that a different FSC (in which the s) stands for "sequence" was cited in two papers by the same authors. That's not really mcuh of a blip. What was I told to google for, and how does that change my conclusions?David Kellogg
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
01:57 PM
1
01
57
PM
PDT
Jerry, great to hear from you. So is (Functional)Complex Specified Information something concrete, observable, measurable? How do you detect it? What units is it measured in?Arthur Smith
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
01:04 PM
1
01
04
PM
PDT
kairosfocus: Instead, we have observed the reliable causal history of sufficient cases of FSCI, and are sufficiently aware of the search space challenges of finding islands of function in large state spaces to infer that design for good reason is a better, EMPIRICALLY WARRANTED explanation than chance for the contingency + specified function. (Forces of mechanical necessity produce reliable regularities, so they do not account for high contingency, i.e. large config spaces.) Effectively, kairo, and without all the elaborate phrases, what you're saying is that the I.D. explanation of the origins of FSCI is....wait for it....FSCI. Is this going to give I.D. a great reputation as a theory with explanatory power? My point that FSCI cannot be a prerequisite for its own existence means: (a) That FSCI could exist in life without a designer. (b) That intelligent designers of life could exist without requiring intelligent designers. It's not a point intended to prove life without design, merely that information based arguments do not support I.D. because of their built in contradictions. I'll have a look at your link.iconofid
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
01:03 PM
1
01
03
PM
PDT
"I’m willing to accept that FCSI (or its scrambled variants) has a more or less stable meaning. However, it seems more to be a philosophical than a scientific term; in any event, the scientific community has utterly ignored it." Utterly wrong. You were told what to google for.jerry
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
12:55 PM
12
12
55
PM
PDT
So is (Functional)Complex Specified Information something concrete, observable, measurable? How do you detect it? What units is it measured in? (Sorry about broken link)Arthur Smith
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
12:47 PM
12
12
47
PM
PDT
Kariofocus, Absolutely. How do things stand with the volcano now? Any possibility that the forbidden zone will be reduced? Upthread is a question you may have overlooked.Arthur Smith
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
12:43 PM
12
12
43
PM
PDT
PS: We tend to have an off-line life, so please remember that a lot of things around UD proceed from day to day, not moment to moment. (For instance I have been with two sets of clients, have been to the local public library, and have done several family chores plus communicated directly with people in three other islands so far today, plus putting up significant materials on an online education project I am working on; all since my previous comment here. And more has to be done, on several fronts.)kairosfocus
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
12:36 PM
12
12
36
PM
PDT
ICON; First, please read here from my always linked. Second, exactly no-one has said or implied that instantiations of functionally specific complex information in contingent beings (those that are not necessary beings) are self-caused. So, kindly refrain from a strawman argument. Instead, we have observed the reliable causal history of sufficient cases of FSCI, and are sufficiently aware of the search space challenges of finding islands of function in large state spaces to infer that design for good reason is a better, EMPIRICALLY WARRANTED explanation than chance for the contingency + specified function. (Forces of mechanical necessity produce reliable regularities, so they do not account for high contingency, i.e. large config spaces.) I observe, too, that you are not posing an empirical counter-instance to the example I posed -- a contextually responsive text in English -- of any consequence, but are resorting to cases where the cause is not directly known, and/or are trying to play around with contingent/ necessary being issue without sufficient care to see that we are talking of caused entities, not absurd self-causing ones. Similarly, we are not resorting to infinite regresses of causes, we are simply pointing out that on massive observation FSCI comes from intelligence, so if we see it in a case of otherwise unknown cause, it is reasonable to infer to intelligent cause, not undirected stochastic contingency, aka lucky noise. Here, finally, is my comment on bio- viri and the cell's DNA- RNA- Ribosome- enzyme- Protein system: Viri are the bioworld equivalent of trojan horses that hijack the cell's nanotech computer, reprogramming it for a destructive purpose. But that carries the implication that we have stumbled on -- not Paley's watch in a field -- but instead a COMPUTER, complete with codes and associated instructional and data structure/markup languages, digital data, algorithms, alterable programs and implementing machinery, in the heart of life forms. Computers are both irreducibly complex and functionally specific and complex information machines. In cases of our observation, such come from intelligences. So, we have good reason to infer to design of the entity that has these computers in them. (Complete with the equivalent of today's malware epidemic running around. There is a REASON we talk of computer viruses!) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
12:32 PM
12
12
32
PM
PDT
DonaldM: Because we already know by experience that every time we encounter something that exhibits the feature of specified complexity and where we know the causal history of that something, we find that intelligence is the cause. And we already know by experience that every time we encounter something that exhibits the feature of specified complexity and where we know the causal history of that something, the intelligence that caused it has specified complexity for which we don't know the cause. The argument that specified complexity has its origins in intelligence automatically falls apart, because all intelligent designers, by definition, require it. Gil’s point in the OP still stands unrefuted. There is a complete absence of evidence that unguided chance and/or necessity can account for specified complexity and it is pervasive and systemic. Yet no-one answers my questions about functional proviruses. Is their FSCI chance or design? And I repeat, for the umpteenth time, FSCI cannot be a prerequisite for its own existence. That obvious point refutes Gil's.iconofid
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
12:09 PM
12
12
09
PM
PDT
jerry, I have found the attempts to justify the rigor of FCSI (and variants) interesting so long as they avoid the ad hominem to which they've tended. There's no need to insult me. The only thing I've insulted is kairosfocus's writing style. Back to the issue. As sparc [151] points out, "Even UD regulars initially had problems grasping the advanced concept of FCSI." So what jerry's 4th grade niece finds easy was difficult for some. Possibly the most amusing moment in that discussion comes from bFast, whose first sentence agrees with my main point. bFast writes:
FSCI is a term that doesn’t have very wide acceptance. However, the concept has been on the table for a long time. The concept of CSI is a foundational concept of the ID movement. The CSI that is of particular note is the “functional” subset. I think that the term FSCI clarifies the issue, however the issue has been clearly defined for a long time prior to the GEM’s clarifying terminology.
So: a "clearly defined" issue was "clarified" by the "clarifying terminology" of GEM (kairosfocus). A rule of thumb in technical writing is that if you have to say that something is clear, it's probably not. I'm willing to accept that FCSI (or its scrambled variants) has a more or less stable meaning. However, it seems more to be a philosophical than a scientific term; in any event, the scientific community has utterly ignored it. (As to the book The Mystery of Life's Origin, that has indeed been cited, but almost entirely by creationists and IDists. Its influence is highly constrained and scientifically negligible.)David Kellogg
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
12:08 PM
12
12
08
PM
PDT
Madsen
Plants and animals, on the other hand, are not built by humans. They might have been designed, but if I take one particular animal, say a bird, and try to pin down the point in time in which the designing occurred, I get stuck.
Forgive me, but this appears to be just grasping at straws. It is irrelevant when, where, how, who or why the design occurred. In my thought experiment we took what we knew from experience here on earth - that bulldozers exhibit the feature of specified complexity at only intelligence can produce that feature -- and applied to a similar looking machine on a far distant planet. In encountering the bulldozer the question of who made it or when was it made is irrelevant to the inference that it was, in fact, designed by an intelligence. Why? Because we already know by experience that every time we encounter something that exhibits the feature of specified complexity and where we know the causal history of that something, we find that intelligence is the cause. But somehow we get "stuck" when we encounter the very same feature in a biological system. Is this feature also caused by an intelligence or is it the result of unguided chance and/or necessity? We have no experience whatsoever of anything that exhibits the feature of specified complexity being the result of unguided chance and/or necessity, but plenty of experience with it being the result of intelligent design. Gil's point in the OP still stands unrefuted. There is a complete absence of evidence that unguided chance and/or necessity can account for specified complexity and it is pervasive and systemic. It is also evidence of absence and design is thus confirmed as the better alternative, even if we don't know who, what, when, where, why or how. That is the point.DonaldM
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
09:58 AM
9
09
58
AM
PDT
jerry, of course it's not conclusive. it is the fossil record. and perhaps i was a bit too glib in saying that the same system was in place. but it certainly argues against your proposition that "it is not something that a species could slowly adapt into or one that could suddenly pop up from large changes to the genome and be exapted." this shows evidence that noncervical air sacs, which are responsible for unidirectional air flow in birds, were present in their dinosaur ancestors. whether they served the exact same function is beside the point- these features are not unique to birds and could easily have been exapted from dinosaurs. the latter is actually extremely likely since theropods are the direct ancestors of birds. in other words, this is good evidence that what you say couldn't happen easily could.Khan
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
09:37 AM
9
09
37
AM
PDT
khan, Thank you for the article. Except your conclusion and their conclusion is not quite the same. I think they found evidence that parts of such a system may have been in this fossil. It certainly supports that such a system could have been there but it is not conclusive. I am certainly not one to have a definitive opinion on what has been found. I am just reading the conclusion and the previous paragraph. "In sum, although we may never be able to sort out the most important factors behind the origin and evolution of the unique avian pulmonary system, discoveries such as Aerosteon provide clues that help to constrain the timing and circumstances when many of the fundamental features of avian respiration arose." Maybe someone more familiar with bird anatomy and the crux of these findings could comment. The article has a good description of the avian pulmonary system.jerry
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
09:25 AM
9
09
25
AM
PDT
kairosfocus: "ICON: Try this one:".... kairo, in the post you're replying to, I said that the English language certainly seems to contain FSCI as you guys describe it. I like FSCI. I see it in the human provirus that produces syncytin, for example. So, I'm wondering whether I.D. people see this as something designed. As you can guess, I don't. FSCI is a reliable and successfully tested sign of intelligence. So, test it on functional proviruses, and assess the likelihood of an intelligent design origin for them. Selective hyperskepticism game over, get over it. You're skeptical of natural explanations for natural phenomena, and I'm skeptical of supernatural explanations for natural phenomena. Were both skeptics, and the game is certainly not over. Do you agree with me that intelligence cannot exist without FSCI, and that FSCI can exist without intelligent design. FSCI cannot be a prerequisite for its own existence.iconofid
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
09:22 AM
9
09
22
AM
PDT
jerry,
The have a unique oxygen delivery system not found in any other species. An oxygen delivery system unbelievably appropriate for flight.
un, except that it is found in flightless theropods as well? http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003303Khan
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
08:29 AM
8
08
29
AM
PDT
The designer(s) of living organisms also fit that category. We have no idea who it/ they was/ were but I recognize living organisms as being designed, information-rich systems. No, they don't. I've identified the designer(s) of this house as human. And, according to your own arguments, information rich systems do not require intelligent design. Intelligent designers are, by their nature, information rich and full of FSCI. FSCI cannot be a prerequisite for its own existence. That's not an argument against the intelligent design of life. I'm merely pointing out that FSCI based arguments cannot possibly support it. I fully support the notion that what you describe as FSCI can exist without requiring a designer, and therefore, your mysterious designers could exist.iconofid
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
08:08 AM
8
08
08
AM
PDT
jerry,
birds are a bad example as an icon for a naturalistic process. The have a unique oxygen delivery system not found in any other species. An oxygen delivery system unbelievably appropriate for flight. It is not something that a species could slowly adapt into or one that could suddenly pop up from large changes to the genome and be exapted.
I'll leave the matter of whether the oxygen delivery system could have developed gradually to biologists. I brought up the bird example in the context of DonaldM's bulldozer scenario. I'm simply saying that the logic used (by me, anyway) to conclude the bulldozer was designed doesn't work when applied to birds.
“I claim that you haven’t ruled out birds as a counterexample.” Again an absolute is being claimed for ID when ID does not make any such claims.
I'm not saying anything about ID itself making absolute claims. My point was in response to this statement of DonaldM's:
We have no experience whatsoever that unguided chance and/or necessity can produce such a system. That applies to biological systems as well.
I'm not satisfied that his bulldozer thought experiment rules out the possibility that birds have arisen through naturalistic processes.madsen
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
08:07 AM
8
08
07
AM
PDT
Jerry: I fear you are right. But I have given the specific challenge: put up, or stand exposed as part of the problem that is tearing our civilisation apart; and thus part of why not just ID science is needed but an ID movement as part of a wider reform pushback on the runaway destruction of our civilisation. And, I think that we are dealing with people who do not seem to understand the fire they are playing with, if they succeed more and more in wrecking the foundations of our civlisation. Do you wield a wrecking ball on the house you are inside of? Why or why not? Do you saw off the branch on which you sit? Why or why not? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
08:02 AM
8
08
02
AM
PDT
ICON: Try this one: 1] A contextually responsive ASCII, English text string 2] Of at least 143 7-bit characters [i.e. 1,000+ bits] 3] Constitutes FSCI as a simple and common example, where 4] In every observed test case, case such a string is the product of design, and 5] this among other cases allows us to make the strong induction that such FSCI is a reliable sign of intelligence. 6] Which is subject to empirical test and dis-confirmation by instantiation of counterexample. 7] but, since we know this and such is simply not forthcoming [including, Weasel is a circular argument] 8] FSCI is a reliable and successfully tested sign of intelligence. Selective hyperskepticism game over, get over it. GEM of TKI PS: if you doubt me, show me a case where for instance this post (862 characters) can be reasonably and credibly deemed the product of lucky noise, not design.kairosfocus
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
07:51 AM
7
07
51
AM
PDT
birds are a bad example as an icon for a naturalistic process. The have a unique oxygen delivery system not found in any other species. An oxygen delivery system unbelievably appropriate for flight. It is not something that a species could slowly adapt into or one that could suddenly pop up from large changes to the genome and be exapted. "I claim that you haven’t ruled out birds as a counterexample." Again an absolute is being claimed for ID when ID does not make any such claims. Also ID says nothing about when design took place, how often it took place and who did the designing. There are some speculations on when, origin of life and the Cambrian, but more confident predictions will only come when many more genomes are mapped and analyzed and understood. If birds were designed specifically, then it would have been much later. Again their oxygen delivery system will be key in what claims are made about birds.jerry
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
07:37 AM
7
07
37
AM
PDT
DonaldM,
You seem to be suggesting here that if something is actually designed it comes from a factory. If something as complex as a bulldozer requires intelligent design why assume that something far more complex — a living organism — doesn’t require any design at all? The fact that organisms are offspring of their parents is really irrelevant. In a sense bulldozers are the “offspring” of the factories that produce them and those factories were in turn designed to produce them. The point is that any system that produces specified complexity is itself the result of intelligent design. We have no experience whatsoever that unguided chance and/or necessity can produce such a system. That applies to biological systems as well.
My only assumption here is what I've actually observed: Things such as bulldozers, 747s, skyscrapers, etc., are built from scratch by humans, and are therefore designed. If you present me with one of these machines or structures, I would likely be able to trace back its history, determine its manufacturer, and probably discover the engineers or architects who did the designing. Plants and animals, on the other hand, are not built by humans. They might have been designed, but if I take one particular animal, say a bird, and try to pin down the point in time in which the designing occurred, I get stuck. The bird was not built from scratch. It is the offspring of its parents. There is no justification for concluding any designing was done by the bird's parents. We can follow the bird's ancestors back generation after generation, and I simply cannot locate a point in time where the designing happened. So, unlike in the bulldozer example, I can't make a case for design with the bird. You say that we have no experience that unguided chance and necessity can produce biological systems such as the bird, but that is exactly what is at issue here. I claim that you haven't ruled out birds as a counterexample.madsen
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
06:57 AM
6
06
57
AM
PDT
"Animals may have been designed certainly, but nothing in my experience allows me to conclude that with any certainty." To clear a point about ID. There is no declaration by ID that anything is absolute. Only that certain things are probable and other things are highly probable and other things are of very low probability. ID always holds out the possibility of a naturalistic cause for any specific phenomenon but will continually point out that no cause has ever been found for the issues under debate or that there are physical obstacles to many naturalistic processes claimed to be operating in the evolution of life. So there is no claim that is absolute. The only absolute claim in this debate is the one proffered by the Darwinists that no intelligence was involved or even possible in the creation of life or any of its evolution.jerry
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
06:23 AM
6
06
23
AM
PDT
To them it is a game . . . Jerry, I disagree. It's not a game, but a religion with internal inconsistencies that don't stand up to reason, and that's why we get the irrational (and quite anti-intellectual) responses to our arguments.tribune7
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
06:22 AM
6
06
22
AM
PDT
Jerry: [cite]"The English language is an example of FSCI."[/cite] That's interesting. It certainly seems to contain functionally specific complex information. Who designed the Saxon and Norman invasions of England, I wonder?iconofid
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
06:14 AM
6
06
14
AM
PDT
kairosfocus, The anti ID people here are not here to engage in a conversation. They have nothing to offer and are not hear to listen to our point of view. They can not defend the part of evolutionary theory that we challenge which is telling and so they must take another tact. To them it is a game, a joust, a disruption. The amazing thing is they believe something they cannot defend but make farcical, frivolous, irrelevant, childish remarks. You could find probably 50 more adjectives to describe the behavior. Trying to reason with them is useless. They will go back to their dens and joke about how they are disrupting things here and feel proud about themselves. For that is their objective. The sad thing is that some of these people are in their mid 40's to 60 years old and this is what they find useful with their lives. This is their self image. So I think a special pleading with them is just what they want. They want to distract and demean people here not converse with them.jerry
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
06:09 AM
6
06
09
AM
PDT
PS: WAC item 28 on FSCI: _____________________ 28] What about FSCI [Functionally Specific, Complex Information] ? Isn’t it just a “pet idea” of some dubious commenters at UD? Not at all. FSCI — Functionally Specific, Complex Information or Function-Specifying Complex Information (occasionally FCSI: Functionally Complex, Specified Information) – is a descriptive summary of the particular subset of CSI identified by several prominent origins of life [OOL] researchers in the 1970’s – 80’s. For at that time, the leading researchers on OOL sought to understand the differences between (a) the highly informational, highly contingent functional macromolecules of life and (b) crystals formed through forces of mechanical necessity, or (c) random polymer strings. In short, FSCI is a descriptive summary of a categorization that emerged as pre-ID movement OOL researchers struggled to understand the difference between crystals, random polymers and informational macromolecules. Indeed, by 1984, Thaxton, Bradley and Olson, writing in the technical level book that launched modern design theory, The Mystery of Life’s Origin [Download here], in Chapter 8, could summarize from two key origin of life [OOL] researchers as follows:
Yockey [7] and Wickens [5] develop the same distinction [as Orgel], explaining that “order” is a statistical concept referring to regularity such as might characterize a series of digits in a number, or the ions of an inorganic crystal. On the other hand, “organization” refers to physical systems and the specific set of spatio-temporal and functional relationships among their parts. Yockey and Wickens note that informational macromolecules have a low degree of order but a high degree of specified complexity. In short, the redundant order of crystals cannot give rise to specified complexity of the kind or magnitude found in biological organization; attempts to relate the two have little future. [TMLO, (Dallas, TX: Lewis and Stanley reprint), 1992, erratum insert, p. 130. Emphases added.]
The source of the abbreviation FSCI should thus be obvious – and it is one thing to airily dismiss blog commenters; it is another thing entirely to have to squarely face the result of the work of men like Orgel, Yockey and Wickens as they pursued serious studies on the origin of life. But also, while the cluster of concepts came up in origin of life studies, these same ideas are very familiar in engineering: engineering designs are all about stipulating functionally specific, complex information. Indeed, FSCI is a hallmark of engineered or designed systems. So, FSCI is actually a functionally specified subset of CSI, i.e. the relevant specification is connected to the presence of a contingent function due to interacting parts that work together in a specified context per requirements of a system, interface, object or process. For practical purposes, once an aspect of a system, process or object of interest has at least 500 – 1,000 bits or the equivalent of information storing capacity, and uses that capacity to specify a function that can be disrupted by moderate perturbations, then it manifests FSCI, thus CSI. This also leads to a simple metric for FSCI, the functionally specified bit; as with those that are used to display this text on your PC screen. (For instance, where such a screen has 800 x 600 pixels of 24 bits, that requires 11.52 million functionally specified bits. This is well above the 500 – 1,000 bit threshold.) On massive evidence, such cases are reliably the product of intelligent design, once we independently know the causal story. So, we are entitled to (provisionally of course; as per usual with scientific work) induce that FSCI is a reliable, empirically observable sign of design. ____________________________ Just what about this is -- on reasonable grounds -- unclear, non-rigorous, not quantitiative, and useless or confusing, and precisely why?kairosfocus
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
05:57 AM
5
05
57
AM
PDT
Madsen
If instead of a bulldozer, we had seen what appeared to be an exotic animal, I wouldn’t have drawn any conclusions about design. That’s because in my experience, animals are not created in factories, but rather are the offspring of their parents. Animals may have been designed certainly, but nothing in my experience allows me to conclude that with any certainty.
You seem to be suggesting here that if something is actually designed it comes from a factory. If something as complex as a bulldozer requires intelligent design why assume that something far more complex -- a living organism -- doesn't require any design at all? The fact that organisms are offspring of their parents is really irrelevant. In a sense bulldozers are the "offspring" of the factories that produce them and those factories were in turn designed to produce them. The point is that any system that produces specified complexity is itself the result of intelligent design. We have no experience whatsoever that unguided chance and/or necessity can produce such a system. That applies to biological systems as well.DonaldM
March 18, 2009
March
03
Mar
18
18
2009
05:51 AM
5
05
51
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 8

Leave a Reply