Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evidence Against Chance and Necessity (Also Known As Darwinism) is Evidence for Design

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In another thread, poster madsen presented the following challenge:

I’m holding out hope that the next post will concern positive evidence for ID rather than more critiques of Darwin.

In mathematics there is a method of proof called “proof by contradiction.” The logic behind this proof is the following: Establish two possible alternatives. Assume that one of the alternatives is true, and prove it to be logically contradictory. A superb example of proof by contradiction is Euclid’s (circa 300 BC) proof that the number of primes is infinite.

Let’s apply the method of proof by contradiction to the chance-and-necessity versus design debate.

Of course, this is not a mathematical model, but there are some very illuminating similarities. There are two options: 1) design (foresight and planning), and 2) the materialistic laws of physics, chemistry, and probability – which are purported to have produced all biological phenomena, from the information-processing machinery of the cell to the human mind.

Option 2) might have been believable in the 19th century, when it was thought that life was fundamentally simple, but it is completely unsupportable in light of modern science. The preponderance of scientific evidence and mathematical analysis weighs overwhelming in support of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Let us not hear about “self-organization.” Sodium chloride forms salt crystals, and water freezes into snowflakes, but salt crystals and snowflakes contain no information (other than that about how the molecules mechanically interact as they coalesce), and they certainly don’t form information-processing machinery.

Of course, there is always the possibility that there is a third option, besides design versus chance and necessity, but I’d like to hear it. In the meantime, logic, evidence, and mathematics weigh heavily on the side of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Comments
What I did ask further up the thread was whether anyone knew of a designed machine with specified complexity that hadn’t been designed by designers with even greater complexity.
I don't know of anything tat prevents it- that is something of X SC designing something with an SC of X + 1.
I think you also asked if I knew of an example of nature producing SC. My answer is yes, but as you probably regard life as being unnatural, an inevitable I.D. position, and one for which there’s no evidence, then you won’t accept the ones that come to mind.
It was nature, operating freely- and if you can then do so. But you had better be prepared to demonstrate that nature, operating freely did it.
Incidentally, do viruses have SC? Do you think they require design?
Can viruses be reduced to matter, energy, chance and necessity? I would say they were either designed or "evolved" from the design.
And are proviruses in the human genome that perform important functions designed?
proviruses yes, amateur viruses no. :) But anyway it would take some investigating to figure out exactly what was designed and what wasn't. That is why science is needed- to help us figure that out.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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"The dispute between KRiS_Censored and Joseph is predicated on the notion that specified complexity (and I suppose CSI) is a rigorously defined concept. It’s hard to know what to say if you think, as I do, that the notion is woolly and ill-defined." The evolution debate is actually based on a related concept to CSI called Complex specified functional information or FSCI or FCSI. It is information that is complex and specifies something else that is functional. DNA is complex and specifies other biological elements that are also complex and functional. Similar processes are seen in language where words are used to specify other concepts that are functional and more explicitly in written language where letters, words, sentences etc specify concepts that have meaning and function. A second related example is computer programming where lines of code specify processes in a computer. The only place this is seen is in DNA and human activity. No where else in nature is such a phenomena present. So the argument goes, if intelligence can produce it and nature cannot then the origin of it in life, the example under investigation, is likely to be that intelligence created the DNA. Until nature can show the capability of producing FSCI, then the proposition that intelligence created it, is very likely. Never absolute but very likely. So the debate in evolution is not something that is wooly and ill-defined but clearly laid out.jerry
March 17, 2009
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Madsen
Ok, in your hypothetical bulldozer scenario, I would of course conclude that it was built by some reasonably advanced civilization. I would not, however, conclude that it required the participation of some “Designer” with more power or intelligence than that of humans. Of course bulldozers don’t reproduce or evolve, so I don’t think this scenario says a great deal about the biological examples we are discussing.
Okay, so inferring actual design by an intelligent agency isn't all that problematic. So, what level of specified complexity would you need to see to infer an intelligence greater than human? Would a complex biochemical system qualify, for example? The point, of course, is that with respect to Gil's OP, and my thought experiment, we already know by experience that specified complexity requires intelligence to produce. We know of no case where unguided chance and/or necessity did so. With respect to certain biological systems, the absence of evidence is pervasive and systemic. It is reasonable to conclude, therefore, that it is also evidence of absence and that intelligence cause is involved---even if at this point don't know who, what, or how that intelligence may have caused things to be. Gil's main point in the OP still stands unrefuted!DonaldM
March 17, 2009
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Joseph says: iconofid: Of course bulldozers don’t reproduce or evolve, so I don’t think this scenario says a great deal about the biological examples we are discussing. I've not mentioned bulldozers on this blog, Joseph. Wrong person, I guess. What I did ask further up the thread was whether anyone knew of a designed machine with specified complexity that hadn't been designed by designers with even greater complexity. You asked a good question, which was how could I tell that the designer would have more SC than the designed machine. And indeed, how can we measure such things as how specified something is, and how complex something is? Isn't that a problem in developing the design hypothesis into a theory? I'd argue that humans have more SC than their inventions on several grounds, one of which is that the inventions can't invent themselves. If we managed to produce a robot that could design and build an airplane, we'd still be one step ahead, because the robot would have to be able to design another robot that could design and build an airplane in an attempt to equal us, but would automatically put us another step ahead in doing so. I think you also asked if I knew of an example of nature producing SC. My answer is yes, but as you probably regard life as being unnatural, an inevitable I.D. position, and one for which there's no evidence, then you won't accept the ones that come to mind. Incidentally, do viruses have SC? Do you think they require design? And are proviruses in the human genome that perform important functions designed? Do they have SC?iconofid
March 17, 2009
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However if you know something about THE designer then you are not trying to determine if it was designed or not.
Not necessarily
LoL! If you know something about the agency who designed it then you are not trying to determine whether or not it was designed. You already know it was.
In the meantime, demonstrate to me that every observed instance of SC production was done by intelligence.
As I have already said that is done every day. So on any given day the premise that SC requires a designer is tested.
I’ll start with the simple observation that biological systems are known to be vastly more complex than non-biological systems (please provide evidence to the contrary if you dispute this).
Which should tell you that if those non-biological systems required a designer then most likely biological systems did too. So what is your point? That is other than helping us confirm the design inference? ThanksJoseph
March 17, 2009
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iconofid:
I have never heard of bulldozers reproducing, mutating, being subject to natural selection, etc.
That wasn't my question. What prevents them from doing so? Ya see in the anti-ID scenario non-living matter somehow became able to mate, reproduce and become subject to selection, etc.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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I will also add that if anyone demonstrated that the currently defined version of SC- whether or not one thinks it is rigorous enough- can arise via nature, operatiung freely, ID as it currently stands, would be refuted. So instead of whining about SC you would think that ID critics and anti-IDists should take what is there and set out to support THEIR claims by showing nature, operating freely can indeed acount for it. Reduce and simplify- Once something is reduced to matter, energy, chance and necessity the requirement for a designer vanishes.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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Joseph #116,
And why couldn’t they? What prevents naturalistic evolutionary processes from putting together a bulldozer?
I have never heard of bulldozers reproducing, mutating, being subject to natural selection, etc. That's why my first reaction on seeing DonaldM's hypothetical bulldozer would be to suspect it was manufactured by someone and not that it arose through evolution. If you can spell out a plausible bulldozer evolution scenario, I might reconsider.madsen
March 17, 2009
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However if you know something about THE designer then you are not trying to determine if it was designed or not.
Not necessarily. It's known as a thought experiment, whereby you assume something to be true to test it's logical veracity. I'm not saying that a designer definitely exists. I'm saying that if a designer does exists, then he must be more complex than what he has designed. Again, this is a logical inference of exactly the same kind that leads to the idea that there is a designer in the first place, subject to all of the same strengths and weaknesses of that type of inference.
Do it.
Okay. In the meantime, demonstrate to me that every observed instance of SC production was done by intelligence. I'll start with the simple observation that biological systems are known to be vastly more complex than non-biological systems (please provide evidence to the contrary if you dispute this). That means that every time we've observed any biological agent producing non-biological SC by design, the producing agent has definitely been more complex then what was produced. Second, as for producing biological SC, I know of no case where any scientist has ever produced by design anything even approaching the complexity of another human. I similarly know of no other animal that has produced by design another biological or non-biological agent which approached it's own level of complexity (again please provide evidence to the contrary if you dispute this). So for every observed case that I know of where biological agents have been produced, the producer has again been of greater complexity than what was produced. Finally we come to the option of a non-biological agent producing SC. I know of no directly observed instance of this ever occurring. As I stated twice above, please provide evidence to the contrary if you dispute any claim that I've made here. Meanwhile, I'm waiting for your own demonstration.KRiS_Censored
March 17, 2009
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Ooops- "than" instead of "then"Joseph
March 17, 2009
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And just what exactly is rigorously defined in the theory of evolution? Species? Not yet and ever-changing to boot. That said I would bet SC/ CSI is more rigorously defined then anything the anti-ID position can muster.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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The dispute between KRiS_Censored and Joseph is predicated on the notion that specified complexity (and I suppose CSI) is a rigorously defined concept. It's hard to know what to say if you think, as I do, that the notion is woolly and ill-defined.David Kellogg
March 17, 2009
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And more to the point, no one is proposing that bulldozers arose through a naturalistic evolutionary process.
And why couldn't they? What prevents naturalistic evolutionary processes from putting together a bulldozer?Joseph
March 17, 2009
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KRiS: Get back to me when you can explain why I cannot know something about the designer BEFORE I can determine whether or not it was designed, ie SC is present? I never saqid you cannot know something about the designer. However if you know something about THE designer then you are not trying to determine if it was designed or not.
I can similarly back up the fact that every time we have observed SC being produced, the producer has always been more complex than what was being produced.
You can? Do it.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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Hi mullerpr #95,
Just to indulge you in this misplaced view you prefer to discuss, I can point you to the evidence that Michael Behe has been compiling for how long now. That is positive evidence that NOT-”chance and necessity” (i.e. ~A) is statistically the only valid explanation for the origin of various irreducible complex biological systems.
This could very well be the case, but it's not what jerry was arguing in post #3, which is what I have a problem with.madsen
March 17, 2009
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Ooo...missed this opportunity. Oh well, here goes: Get back to me when you can explain why I cannot know something about the designer BEFORE I can determine whether or not it was designed, ie SC is present?KRiS_Censored
March 17, 2009
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I can back up the fact that every time we have observed SC and knew the cause it was always via agency involvement.
I can similarly back up the fact that every time we have observed SC being produced, the producer has always been more complex than what was being produced. Feel free to reference any observation to the contrary.
It’s called an INFERENCE for a reason. Science is a tentative “business”. Science goes by the knowledge we currently have. Science does not and cannot wait for what the future may or may not reveal. And yes the science of today is totally open to refutations from future observations.
I agree wholeheartedly. This is true whether you're referring to the existence of a designer, or to an attribute of the designer.
Get back to me when you can explain why I have to know something about the designer BEFORE I can determine whether or not it was designed, ie SC is present?
You don't have to know something about the designer. The simple fact is that you do know something about the designer, whether you want to admit it or not. Yes, it's tentative. Yes, it's based solely on knowledge that we currently have. No, we do not and cannot wait for what the future may or may not reveal. And yes, it is totally open to refutations from future observations. This doesn't change in any way the fact that this attribute can be inferred right now with what knowledge we currently have. The only way that you can refute this is to provide observable evidence that an intelligence can produce something more complex than itself.KRiS_Censored
March 17, 2009
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Joseph #110,
True biological are far more detailed and intricate than any bulldozer example could be.
And more to the point, no one is proposing that bulldozers arose through a naturalistic evolutionary process.madsen
March 17, 2009
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iconofid:
Of course bulldozers don’t reproduce or evolve, so I don’t think this scenario says a great deal about the biological examples we are discussing.
True biological are far more detailed and intricate than any bulldozer example could be. Reproduction- that is something you need to explain in the genetic accidents scenario. Never-mind the reproduction- Do you understand the transcription to translation process? And "evolution" is not being debated.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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KRiS:
Can you back up the fact that every instance of SC produced was by intelligence?
I can back up the fact that every time we have observed SC and knew the cause it was always via agency involvement. We have made many such observations and on a daily basis.
Can you back up the fact that every *observed* instance of SC produced was by intelligence?
It's called an INFERENCE for a reason. Science is a tentative "business". Science goes by the knowledge we currently have. Science does not and cannot wait for what the future may or may not reveal. And yes the science of today is totally open to refutations from future observations. With that in mind, coupled with the fact that it matters to an investigation whether or not that which is being investigated arose via agency involvement or nature, operating freely.
IOW did you measure the intelligence of the designer(s)?
How is it even relevant? Get back to me when you can explain why I have to know something about the designer BEFORE I can determine whether or not it was designed.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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KRiS:
Can you back up the fact that every instance of SC produced was by intelligence?
I can back up the fact that every time we have observed SC and knew the cause it was always via agency involvement. We have made many such observations and on a daily basis.
Can you back up the fact that every *observed* instance of SC produced was by intelligence?
It's called an INFERENCE for a reason. Science is a tentative "business". Science goes by the knowledge we currently have. Science does not and cannot wait for what the future may or may not reveal. And yes the science of today is totally open to refutations from future observations. With that in mind, coupled with the fact that it matters to an investigation whether or not that which is being investigated arose via agency involvement or nature, operating freely, we trudge forward under the initial inference.
IOW did you measure the intelligence of the designer(s)?
How is it even relevant? Get back to me when you can explain why I have to know something about the designer BEFORE I can determine whether or not it was designed, ie SC is present?Joseph
March 17, 2009
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DonaldM #104
If you and I were travel to a planet in some galaxy far, far away and we knew we were the only earthlings to ever go there, and we discovered on this planet a functioning bulldozer like machine, we would both know that intelligence designed and produced it, even if we had no clue as to when, where, who or how. Why? Because we’d both know by experience that intelligence can produce specified complexity.
Ok, in your hypothetical bulldozer scenario, I would of course conclude that it was built by some reasonably advanced civilization. I would not, however, conclude that it required the participation of some "Designer" with more power or intelligence than that of humans. Of course bulldozers don't reproduce or evolve, so I don't think this scenario says a great deal about the biological examples we are discussing.madsen
March 17, 2009
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Correction: Can you back up the fact that every *observed* instance of SC produced was by intelligence?KRiS_Censored
March 17, 2009
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It is? Can you back that up?
Can you back up the fact that every instance of SC produced was by intelligence? IOW did you measure the intelligence of the designer(s)? IOW you don’t get to make an assertion and then call it true. When you get around to measuring the intelligence in designers get back to me.KRiS_Censored
March 17, 2009
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Madsen
At the risk of repeating myself, couldn’t I make the same argument against ID by switching a few phrases in your question?
No, because we're not starting from ground zero in both cases. With respect to intelligence, we already know by experience that intelligence can produce systems that exhibit specified complexity. We have no experience or evidence that undirected chance and/or necessity can. It does not matter whether at this point we know who or what that intelligence might be or how it produced the system in question. If you and I were travel to a planet in some galaxy far, far away and we knew we were the only earthlings to ever go there, and we discovered on this planet a functioning bulldozer like machine, we would both know that intelligence designed and produced it, even if we had no clue as to when, where, who or how. Why? Because we'd both know by experience that intelligence can produce specified complexity. But if you were to say, "Well, there's no intelligence we know of out here, so chance and/or necessity might have done this just as well", the burden of proof would be on you to show how chance and/or necessity could produce such a thing. At what point in trying to come up with such an explanation would the absence of evidence become evidence of absence? Would you continue to demand that I define the designers, their methods and processes before conceding that intelligence may after all be involved? I doubt it. Why? Because we'd both know that in inferring intelligent agency, we're not starting from scratch, but from something we already know by experience. That is not the case with chance and/or necessity.DonaldM
March 17, 2009
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Can you, however, produce specific examples of complex systems created by non-human intelligent agents?
You mean besides living organisms? I would say the designer of living organisms is/ was a non-human.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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Khan quoting iconofid:
“In every directly observed instance where specified complexity is produced, the producer contains an even greater degree of specified complexity than that what is being produced.”
This also is true.
It is? Can you back that up? IOW did you measure the SC of the designer(s) and then the SC of the designed? IOW you don't get to make an assertion and then call it true. What if the designer and the designed have the SAME SC? When you get around to measuring the SC in designers and their designs get back to me.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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Joseph @98 Allow me to clarify iconofid's statement for the IDists. The original claim upon which all of ID is based is the following: "In every directly observed instance where specified complexity is produced, it is always produced by an intelligent agent." This is true. The logical inference is that specified complexity can only be produced by intelligence. According to IDists, only direct evidence to the contrary can legitimately refute such an inference. Anything less is considered a "just so story", and is immediately tagged as invalid. Now, iconofids statement follows from exactly the same kind of inference. Namely: "In every directly observed instance where specified complexity is produced, the producer contains an even greater degree of specified complexity than that what is being produced." This also is true. The logical inference is that specified complexity can only be produced by something more complex than what is being produced. Since it is exactly the same kind of logical inference made based on exactly the same kind of evidence, it should follow exactly the same rules for refutation. That is to say only direct evidence to the contrary is legitimate. Anything less is a "just so story" is must be considered invalid. That being the case, what direct evidence do you have that specified complexity is able to be produced by something less complex than what is being produced?KRiS_Censored
March 17, 2009
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. I'm up to my eyeballs in work today, so it will be a while before I can post many replies. Donald M #93:
We know that intelligence can produce systems that exhibit the feature of specified complexity.
Then I'd like to hear more about the nature of this hypothesized designer. Certainly humans can use their intelligence to create complex things. Can you, however, produce specific examples of complex systems created by non-human intelligent agents? If not, then I submit that this particular argument for ID also suffers from absence of evidence.
Can undirected natural causes acting through chance and/or necessity do the same thing? The systemic, global failure on the part of evolutionary biologists to construct a detailed explanation for complex biochemical systems through undirected chance and/or necessity thus negates that premise and provides confirmation for the alternative - intelligent design.
At the risk of repeating myself, couldn't I make the same argument against ID by switching a few phrases in your question? Where is the detailed explanation for complex biochemical systems through design? In fact, in view of the fact that the properties and capabilities of the hypothesized designer haven't even been laid out, it doesn't seem possible to even address this question yet.madsen
March 17, 2009
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madsen:
I have never heard any discussion concerning the identity of the intelligent designer, how and when he carried out the designing process, how the design was actually implemented, etc.
For millionth time: In the absence of direct observation or designer input, the ONLY way to scientifically say anything about the designer(s), the process(es) and the implementation, IS BY STUDYING THE DESIGN IN QUESTION. As Wm Dembski clearly states in "No Free Lunch" those are SEPARATE questions. And the reasoning is sound. So until ID is accepted and therefor gets full funding and more researchers don't expect it to have the answers. However given evolutionary biology's access to funding and researchers their results are less than impressive.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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