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Evidence Against Chance and Necessity (Also Known As Darwinism) is Evidence for Design

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In another thread, poster madsen presented the following challenge:

I’m holding out hope that the next post will concern positive evidence for ID rather than more critiques of Darwin.

In mathematics there is a method of proof called “proof by contradiction.” The logic behind this proof is the following: Establish two possible alternatives. Assume that one of the alternatives is true, and prove it to be logically contradictory. A superb example of proof by contradiction is Euclid’s (circa 300 BC) proof that the number of primes is infinite.

Let’s apply the method of proof by contradiction to the chance-and-necessity versus design debate.

Of course, this is not a mathematical model, but there are some very illuminating similarities. There are two options: 1) design (foresight and planning), and 2) the materialistic laws of physics, chemistry, and probability – which are purported to have produced all biological phenomena, from the information-processing machinery of the cell to the human mind.

Option 2) might have been believable in the 19th century, when it was thought that life was fundamentally simple, but it is completely unsupportable in light of modern science. The preponderance of scientific evidence and mathematical analysis weighs overwhelming in support of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Let us not hear about “self-organization.” Sodium chloride forms salt crystals, and water freezes into snowflakes, but salt crystals and snowflakes contain no information (other than that about how the molecules mechanically interact as they coalesce), and they certainly don’t form information-processing machinery.

Of course, there is always the possibility that there is a third option, besides design versus chance and necessity, but I’d like to hear it. In the meantime, logic, evidence, and mathematics weigh heavily on the side of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Comments
iconofid:
The designer of the Victorian house I’m in now fits the same category. I’ve no idea who he was, but I recognise the house as a human design.
The designer(s) of living organisms also fit that category. We have no idea who it/ they was/ were but I recognize living organisms as being designed, information-rich systems.Joseph
March 18, 2009
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Kellogg sez:
If scientists found it at all useful, it would show up in the literature
Are you talking about those atheistic scientists with an agenda? You know those scientists who now want to dispense with the word "design"? The people who will do ANYTHING to keep their place in the world? Yeah what they do counts for nothing- that is until they can find some actual data that supports their claims.Joseph
March 18, 2009
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Onlookers: I see the selectively hyperskeptical claim that FSCI is not recognised as a scientific concept is being raised here again. In fact, as the WAC and the glossary as above linked point out, this is that subset of complex specified information that is FUNCTIONALLY specified, and the idea originated in the 1970's - 80's with the OOL community of scientists, BEFORE there was an ID movement. Currently, Functional Sequence Complexity [FSC] is the formally, peer-reviewed, published version of the concept, and in 2007 Durston et al have published 35 measured values in that literature. But, inconvenient evidendce is always going to be dismissed by the selectively hyperskeptical, e.g. by claiming:
[1] an obvious, plainly descriptive and easily exemplified term is not 'clear'; and/or [2] what is in the peer-reviewed literature since 1973 over the name Orgel, and is now published to the extent of 35 measured values on the H-metric, is not scientifically grounded or accepted.
That says a lot about what is really going on, but let's move the ball forward. To do so, let us excerpt here the UD glossary item on FSCI: ____________________ >>FSCI — “functionally specified complex information” (or, “function-specifying complex information” or — rarely — “functionally complex, specified information” [FCSI])) is a commonplace in engineered systems: complex functional entities that are based on specific target-zone configurations and operations of multiple parts with large configuration spaces equivalent to at least 500 – 1,000 bits; i.e. well beyond the Dembski-type universal probability bound. In the UD context, it is often seen as a descriptive term for a useful subset of CSI first identified by origin of life researchers in the 1970s – 80’s. As Thaxton et al summed up in their 1984 technical work that launched the design theory movement, The Mystery of Life’s Origin:
“. . . “order” is a statistical concept referring to regularity such as could might characterize a series of digits in a number, or the ions of an inorganic crystal. On the other hand, “organization” refers to physical systems and the specific set of spatio-temporal and functional relationships among their parts. Yockey and Wickens note that informational macromolecules have a low degree of order but a high degree of specified complexity.” [TMLO (FTE, 1984), Ch 8, p. 130.]
So, since in the cases of known origin such are invariably the result of design, it is confidently but provisionally inferred that FSCI is a reliable sign of intelligent design.>> --> Observe the originating context of CSI: molecular bio-function, and the explicit use of the term function in the context of CSI. --> Further observe the contrast: order, vs. organisation that manifests itself thusly: . . . “organization” refers to physical systems and the specific set of spatio-temporal and functional relationships among their parts. ______________________ Orgel, 1973, on specified complexity: >> Living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; mixtures of random polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. [ L.E. Orgel, 1973. The Origins of Life. New York: John Wiley, p. 189.] >> --> Observe, that the specification in view is by bio-function. _____________________ Kindly explain to us what is [i] unclear, [ii] not frequently encountered and exemplified about this concept. Also, [iii] given the Orgel statement of 1973 -- which identifies specified complexity in the context of bio-function -- AND the work of Trevors, Abel, Chiu and Durston; what specifically is there about the FSCI descriptive term, the FSC concept, aqnd associated metrics (and published values) that are scientifically objectionable? [iv] WHY so? [NB: Since any digital data structure is reducible to a string type structure with some context, and since analogue information is digitisable, FSC and FSCI refer to essentially the same concept.] Unless cogent and clear answers are forthcoming on these and similar points, the objections we are seeing are simply selectively hyperskeptical manifestations. In fact, right now their best explanation on the preponderance of evidence -- given that the WAC and glossary are easily accessible -- is already: willful obtuseness and refusal to face or accept inconvenient facts. Mr Kellogg et al: please, please, help us overturn that sad conclusion. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 18, 2009
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David Kellogg:
I said the term had not been defined rigorously and that it was woolly.
Please give us an example of something from the anti-ID position that is rigorously defined and not wooly. That way we can compare. Or do you not want to expose your position for what it is?Joseph
March 18, 2009
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iconofid:
The designers of Stonehenge left behind far more than the structures they built, things like their tombs, their bones and their tools.
How do you know they are from the designers and noot the builders? How do you know whether or not those artifacts belonged to some people who just happened upon Stonehenge? You don't.
As always with intelligent designers, it’s easy to identify what creature they are,
Only if you have some experience with them.
and what they leave behind tells us something about them.
It could. But in reality the best it can tell us is there was something other than nature, operating freely, at work. IOW that “pattern” of fossils is all in your head- Shermer calls it “patternicity”.
My fossils exist.
And the PATTERN they make is in your head. That means there isn't any genetic evidence that shows the changes required are even possible.
But there’s overwhelming evidence that human beings make up invisible imaginary friends.
And imaginary invisble processes- like the processes involved in your scenario.
Could your intelligent designers who design both sides of the biological arms race exist only in your head?
Yes, that is a possibility. However to show that all YOU have to do is show that living organisms are reducible to matter, energy, chance and necessity. But you have failed to do so.Joseph
March 18, 2009
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"I’m afraid this does not answer the questio." I am afraid it does. It is an easy to understand concept and if you have trouble with it, then it might explain the incoherence of many of your comments here. Let's try again Information - DNA; letters, words, sentences; computer code complex - the inability to compress the information. Use your intuitive understanding of complex and it will do. specifies - designate something else that is independent of the information. functional - the thing designated or specified has a function. DNA is complex information that specifies a protein that has a function. There it is as simple as that. It is not wooly but is quite simple. If you can not understand this, then I suggest you find something else to criticize that is commensurate with your abilities.jerry
March 17, 2009
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jerry, I said the term had not been defined rigorously and that it was woolly. You respond that your 4th grade niece can understand and that the English langauge is FCSI. I'm afraid this does not answer the questio. Your niece may als means something very specific when she says a doll is "pretty," and I may say the English language is "pretty" also. But "pretty" is nto a scientifically rigourous term.David Kellogg
March 17, 2009
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David Kellog @ 129
jerry [127], FCSI or FSCI (it can’t even decide!) is even more woolly than CSI. [...] I’m not aware of the concept being used in the scientific literature.
Even UD regulars initially had problems grasping the advanced concept of FCSI that goes well beyond Dembski's CSI. Since FCSI has been discussed in depth at UD ( here, here and here) and links to other FCSI discussions in the internet have been provided (see especially here) KF surely doesn't have to match your pathetic level of detail, especially because FCSI is a newly emerging concept that has not received the attention it deserved by other ID theorists . Still, taking into account the warm welcome the concept of FCSI experienced at UD I am optimistic that Drs. Dembski and Behe will include it in future peer reviewed publications.sparc
March 17, 2009
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David Kellogg, The English language is an example of FSCI. Do you understand English? If you do then you should be able to understand FSCI. Your argument seems to be to mock or ridicule or nitpick or to snipe. Which indicates you have nothing else and the substance of evolution seems to be beyond most here. I explained to people what it was. Who cares if people don't use the exact phraseology, they understand the concept. As I said the English language is an example and so is computer programming and so is DNA. Is this all you can do is pretend you don't understand a simple concept? And then pretend it has no meaning. You are desperate. I suggest you go back to google and search for "functional sequence complexity" Our use of FCSI is a way of simplifying this concept so all can easily understand it which is why my niece picked it up quickly. Somehow the people here who are anti ID have a problem. FSCI sounds fairly complex but is really just what we say it is and distinguishes the information in DNA from other types of sequences. By the way some DNA may not be FSCI but a lot of it is. Just as some sequences of letters are not FSCI.jerry
March 17, 2009
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jerry [142], it's not a matter of your seriousness, it's a matter of whether FCSI (or FSCI) is a recognized scientific concept. I have shown that the concept has literally no impact in science as measured by appearances in the scientific literature. A concept gets recognized in science by being used, and in no other manner. Put another way, science organizes around key terms and concepts. If scientists found it at all useful, it would show up in the literature. It doesn't; therefore, they don't. End of story. Now, your niece may be precocious, and you may have explained something interesting to her, but you haven't taught her any real science. When I was in fourth grade, my friend Len and I wondered what's outside the universe, and we decided it was God -- God was outside the universe, holding it in his embrace. It may have been a mildly interesting way for 10 year olds to think about infinity God, but we weren't going real philosophy or even real theology. In short, your neice's ability to "get" your version of FSCI/FCSI has no bearing on its scientific status, which is nil. As Richard Bentley said of Alexander Pope's translation of the Iliad,
It is a pretty poem, Mr. Pope, but you must not call it Homer.
David Kellogg
March 17, 2009
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Atom: What about designers that didn’t leave any traces behind as to who they were, such as whoever designed (unknown currently) the Paracas Candelabra? Must we pretend we don’t know whether or not it was designed until we can identify the Designer? Of course we can tell it's designed. But we do know the creature that designed that, even when we can't know the specific culture. We can recognise our own work, and we can do the same for things made by other animals. We can also be mistaken, and people in the past have mistaken things like the giants' causeway in Ireland as having been designed. Then there were those canals on Mars! Furthermore, even when you find bones from creatures who could have possibly designed something, how can you tell they were intelligent agents, rather than mere brute human-like apes who couldn’t have designed a thing if they wanted to? Face it, you infer the existence of intelligent designers (or designers in general) by their artifacts. Bones won’t tell you if they were intelligent or not; only their material culture will. If they have skulls like ours, they're intelligent. But I agree, we recognize our own designs. Joseph brought up Stonehenge for some reason when I mentioned invisible supernatural designers, saying that its designers are invisible to us. The designer of the Victorian house I'm in now fits the same category. I've no idea who he was, but I recognise the house as a human design. Therefore, it must be possible to infer the existence of designing intelligences from artifacts alone. It is possible. Certainly. And it is possible to be mistaken, but rarely with human stuff. But whether or not we can recognise human designs was not something I was discussing. I was asking if I.D.ers thought that the useful proviruses in our genomes were designed. They have "FCSI". You're an expert on recognising design. What do you think? And the other things I was asking about were the complex mechanisms that some parasites use to attack other organisms, and the complex defense mechanisms of the potential victims. Can you infer intelligent design when examining these, and if so, do you think that an intelligent design hypothesis of two competing designers is reasonable?iconofid
March 17, 2009
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This is very interesting. Gil you should contribute more often, you rock!SaintMartinoftheFields
March 17, 2009
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iconofid wrote:
The designers of Stonehenge left behind far more than the structures they built, things like their tombs, their bones and their tools. As always with intelligent designers, it’s easy to identify what creature they are, and what they leave behind tells us something about them.
What about designers that didn't leave any traces behind as to who they were, such as whoever designed (unknown currently) the Paracas Candelabra? Must we pretend we don't know whether or not it was designed until we can identify the Designer? Furthermore, even when you find bones from creatures who could have possibly designed something, how can you tell they were intelligent agents, rather than mere brute human-like apes who couldn't have designed a thing if they wanted to? Face it, you infer the existence of intelligent designers (or designers in general) by their artifacts. Bones won't tell you if they were intelligent or not; only their material culture will. Therefore, it must be possible to infer the existence of designing intelligences from artifacts alone. Atom PS See the multiple threads where this topic has been discussed, as well as the "Frequently Used Arguments" section.Atom
March 17, 2009
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Joseph The designers of Stonehenge are invisible to us. So are most of the designers who didn’t leave behind anything more than the structure we are observing. The designers of Stonehenge left behind far more than the structures they built, things like their tombs, their bones and their tools. As always with intelligent designers, it's easy to identify what creature they are, and what they leave behind tells us something about them. "When they do it can then be discussed. When? They have. IOW that “pattern” of fossils is all in your head- Shermer calls it “patternicity”. Assertions and pretty words do not an argument make. My fossils exist. But there's overwhelming evidence that human beings make up invisible imaginary friends. Could your intelligent designers who design both sides of the biological arms race exist only in your head?iconofid
March 17, 2009
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DonaldM,
Okay, so inferring actual design by an intelligent agency isn’t all that problematic. So, what level of specified complexity would you need to see to infer an intelligence greater than human? Would a complex biochemical system qualify, for example?
A major part of why I concluded the bulldozer was designed was that I assumed it was built from scratch similarly to the way all bulldozers on earth are built---in a factory perhaps, by some advanced civilization. If instead of a bulldozer, we had seen what appeared to be an exotic animal, I wouldn't have drawn any conclusions about design. That's because in my experience, animals are not created in factories, but rather are the offspring of their parents. Animals may have been designed certainly, but nothing in my experience allows me to conclude that with any certainty. I would ask about this complex biochemical system you refer to---is it the offspring of other complex biochemical system(s), or is it the only such system of its kind that has existed?madsen
March 17, 2009
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Jerry, Weeks ago I asked if someone could please post a demonstration of a meaningful calculation of "CSI". By meaningful I mean something in the realm of genes not a toy example involving hands of cards. I was told by some moderator that such a demonstration was forthcoming. I'm still waiting. If "FCSI" is so easy to understand that your niece in fourth grade had no trouble with it perhaps you could do the demonstration?B L Harville
March 17, 2009
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FCSI or whatever we want to call it is the same thing as the Central Dogma as outlined by Francis Crick. It is the same idea just expressed in terms of information (the DNA) specifying functional entities (proteins and RNA polymers) through the transcription and then the translation process to create proteins. It is a simple concept easily understood when explained to people. As I said once, my niece in 4th grade thought it was a neat idea. If you want to criticize a simple idea like this, then go ahead. Those who are doing so are not acting smart and cannot be considered serious. Now I expect the return will be attempted jokes and put downs about the word serious or something else but those who do that say more about themselves than anything we could say. So have at the facetious comments or maybe attempt to address the substance some time. It is because you cannot address substance that we have the litany of irrelevant comments.jerry
March 17, 2009
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iconofid
How can anyone ever demonstrate that nature is operating freely?
By reducing and simplfying- peel back the onion.
When invisible intelligent designers are being proposed, and the supernatural is being discussed, supernaturalists can always claim that the spirits had a hand in things.
The designers of Stonehenge are invisible to us. So are most of the designers who didn't leave behind anything more than the structure we are observing. What supernatural is being discussed? Do you realize that your position regresses back to the SAME point as does ID?
If geneticists identify a new gene that creates a new feature in an organism, thus increasing complexity in both the phenotype and the genotype, and having a specified function, meaning a natural increase in SC, who’s to say that the invisible designers haven’t been practising a bit of genetic modification?
When they do it can then be discussed. We pretty much have a grasp on what blind searches can do. If we see some feature that requires several mutations arise in a few generations then it could be a perfect example of Dr Spetner's thesis. Evolutionary theory may "explain" a lot but very little can be demonstrated. We don't know what makes us human so we don't know if any amount of mutational accumulation can account for the evolution of humans from non-humans. IOW that "pattern" of fossils is all in your head- Shermer calls it "patternicity".Joseph
March 17, 2009
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Arthur, The link doesn't work but I did read this article but not the paper. This is important:
Fellow Michael Jewett extracted the bacteria’s natural ribosomes, broke them down into their constituent parts, removed the key ribosomal RNA, and then synthesized the ribosomal RNA anew from molecules.
Why? The program that runs the "synthesized" ribosome is getting passed down from the "natural" ribosome. I touch on this in Biological information in 3 dimensions. However this is all good. Now what should be done- now or whenever- is to remove completely the use of "natural" ribosomes. IOW once one is synthesized from scratch and functions like the "natural" ribosomes, it would show that ribosomal function is reducible to its chemical make-up. That would neatly refute my premise that ribosomes are programmed/ require programming. But thank you very much. This is now getting to the heart of the matter- for me anyway. Reduce and simplify- that is the way to refute ID. And that can be done by slowly removing the involvement of living organisms. A good start this is...Joseph
March 17, 2009
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Joseph: "It was nature, operating freely- and if you can then do so. But you had better be prepared to demonstrate that nature, operating freely did it." How can anyone ever demonstrate that nature is operating freely? When invisible intelligent designers are being proposed, and the supernatural is being discussed, supernaturalists can always claim that the spirits had a hand in things. If geneticists identify a new gene that creates a new feature in an organism, thus increasing complexity in both the phenotype and the genotype, and having a specified function, meaning a natural increase in SC, who's to say that the invisible designers haven't been practising a bit of genetic modification? Bring the supernatural (something for which there's no evidence) into play, and anyone can make up anything. So, old myths, like the evil spirits that were thought to be responsible for contagious diseases, can be brought back into play. Although we thought they were killed off by germ theory, and the evidence that supports it, who's to say that the spirits don't play a role in the design of pathogens and in guiding them towards their targets? We hear about the limits of evolution, but what limits are there on I.D.? I propose the succession of skulls in the fossil record ranging in size from close to those of other apes up to our own as very strong evidence for a natural increase in SC in the brains of our own lineage. But I can't prove that the mysterious designers didn't design all these, step by step, in order to make it look like natural evolution. In fact, if we do have invisible designers of life on this planet, that must be what they're trying to do. Make it look natural! Proviruses with function, I mentioned, but you don't know if they were designed or not. What about when we see systems with high SC used by pathogens to attack their hosts, and systems with high SC in the hosts which defend against them. Evolutionary theory explains the build up of opposing complex systems like this as an arms race. Would it be reasonable to suggest that I.D. requires two or more competing designers to explain such phenomena?iconofid
March 17, 2009
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Upright BiPed, "functional specified complexity" is what was offered You offered "functional sequence complexity." If they are the same thing, you've got me: two papers by overlapping authors.David Kellogg
March 17, 2009
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The paper you cite (Trevors and Abel) mentions Functional Sequence Complexity (and Shannon information, a well understood and useful concept). Has this anything to do with complex specified information as used by, for example, Kariosfocus?Arthur Smith
March 17, 2009
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Arthur as well... http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1208958 http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47Upright BiPed
March 17, 2009
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BTW Joe, Did you see this article on the synthesis of an artificial ribosome?Arthur Smith
March 17, 2009
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David, http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1208958 http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47Upright BiPed
March 17, 2009
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Joseph
If you know something about the agency who designed it then you are not trying to determine whether or not it was designed. You already know it was.
What I have inferred is information that is not specific to any designer, but is a general attribute of any designer, whether it be a human, an ant, or an extraterrestrial. This is true regardless of whether an ultimate designer actually exists. Here's an example of what I mean. I know that every living thing that we've ever observed has been carbon based. There is a question of whether Big Foot exists. I can know that if he exists he's almost certainly a carbon based life form. And I can know this without knowing whether he actually exists. Similarly, I can know that if an ultimate designer exists, s/he is almost certainly more complex than any living creature. And I can know this without knowing whether s/he actually exists.
As I have already said that is done every day.
Way to side step the challenge. But then it's really not that surprising that you are quite unwilling to answer the same kinds of questions that you expect everyone else to answer.
Which should tell you that if those non-biological systems required a designer then most likely biological systems did too. So what is your point?
Another side step. My point in this particular case was simply to demonstrate that every observed case where SC is produced, the producer is more complex than the produced. What I provided was intended as no more or less than evidence for that claim. If you want to pretend that I was answering a different question so that you can claim that I'm supporting your position, feel free.
I don’t know of anything tat prevents it- that is something of X SC designing something with an SC of X + 1.
What direct evidence do you have that this is the case? If you have none, then this is a "just so story" and isn't the least bit convincing. I really have to get some sleep, so I probably won't post again until tomorrow. In the meantime, think about the fact that if you accept the logical inference that an intelligent designer must exist, then you must also accept the logical inference that he is more complex than anything that he designs (again, exact same type of evidence, exact same use of logic, exact same type of conclusion). Think about the consequences of that. Then by all means, feel free to prove it wrong, but remember, only direct evidence counts. Everything else is only a "just so story".KRiS_Censored
March 17, 2009
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So is (Functional)Complex Specified Information something concrete, observable, measurable? How do you detect it? What units is it measured in?Arthur Smith
March 17, 2009
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Joseph,
madsen, I have never heard of bulldozers reproducing, mutating, being subject to natural selection, etc.
That wasn’t my question. What prevents them from doing so? Ya see in the anti-ID scenario non-living matter somehow became able to mate, reproduce and become subject to selection, etc.
If you're asking what is stopping bulldozers from suddenly coming to life and evolving, I think reproduction would be a major issue. By what mechanism would a bulldozer replicate itself? Abiogenesis is unsolved, of course, but I take it self-replication is perhaps not so problematic at the molecular level.madsen
March 17, 2009
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Further finding: a search for all four terms in Web of Science (the gold standard proprietary database) yields 32 results. None of these use the terms together, and none (from a the abstracts) is using an idea such as proposed by jerry. Searches for FCSI and FSCI were similarly unproductive. (By the way, a search for "complex specified information" yielded precisely one reference, an anti-ID paper by Robert Pennock.) Bottom line: if nobody in science uses your preferred term, it's just your pet term.David Kellogg
March 17, 2009
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jerry [127], FCSI or FSCI (it can't even decide!) is even more woolly than CSI. Its main proponent seems to be kairosfocus, whose writing is impenetrable. I'm not aware of the concept being used in the scientific literature. If I type FCSI in Google Scholar, I get "flavor changing scalar interactions" and other non-related terms. If I type FSCI, I get "freehand subcoronary implantation" and other terms. A Google Scholar search for "functional specified complex information" "functional complex specified information" "specified complex functional information" and "complex specified functional information" (all in quotes, so as to get the phrase as a term) yields 0 results in in every case.David Kellogg
March 17, 2009
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