Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evidence Against Chance and Necessity (Also Known As Darwinism) is Evidence for Design

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In another thread, poster madsen presented the following challenge:

I’m holding out hope that the next post will concern positive evidence for ID rather than more critiques of Darwin.

In mathematics there is a method of proof called “proof by contradiction.” The logic behind this proof is the following: Establish two possible alternatives. Assume that one of the alternatives is true, and prove it to be logically contradictory. A superb example of proof by contradiction is Euclid’s (circa 300 BC) proof that the number of primes is infinite.

Let’s apply the method of proof by contradiction to the chance-and-necessity versus design debate.

Of course, this is not a mathematical model, but there are some very illuminating similarities. There are two options: 1) design (foresight and planning), and 2) the materialistic laws of physics, chemistry, and probability – which are purported to have produced all biological phenomena, from the information-processing machinery of the cell to the human mind.

Option 2) might have been believable in the 19th century, when it was thought that life was fundamentally simple, but it is completely unsupportable in light of modern science. The preponderance of scientific evidence and mathematical analysis weighs overwhelming in support of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Let us not hear about “self-organization.” Sodium chloride forms salt crystals, and water freezes into snowflakes, but salt crystals and snowflakes contain no information (other than that about how the molecules mechanically interact as they coalesce), and they certainly don’t form information-processing machinery.

Of course, there is always the possibility that there is a third option, besides design versus chance and necessity, but I’d like to hear it. In the meantime, logic, evidence, and mathematics weigh heavily on the side of design, as a proof by contradiction.

Comments
iconofid:
Do you know of any examples in which “specified complexity” has been produced by intelligent designers who do not themselves require a greater degree of specified complexity than that which is evident in the designed machine?
How could we tell if the designer has more SC than that which was designed? Do you know of any specified complexity that has been produced by nature, operating freely?
How can I.D. be an explanatory theory for the origin of specified complexity if specified complexity is a prerequisite of the theory’s proposed mechanism?
ID is more of a frame-work from which to conduct the investigation. IOW first determine design or not and THEN study it in that light so that we may be able to answer the questions its existence brings.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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An interesting comment. It says more about the person than any comment we could make. Arthur, keep up the good work, these kind of posts help us show that those who object to ID are capable only of trivia. Thank you.
Yes, I'm sorry, Jerry. My problem is I can't take you seriously. Never mind, glad to be of help.Arthur Smith
March 17, 2009
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Donald MThe reason the opposite doesn’t hold is because we already know that intelligence can produce systems that exhibit the feature in question: specified complexity. Do you know of any examples in which "specified complexity" has been produced by intelligent designers who do not themselves require a greater degree of specified complexity than that which is evident in the designed machine? How can I.D. be an explanatory theory for the origin of specified complexity if specified complexity is a prerequisite of the theory's proposed mechanism?iconofid
March 17, 2009
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Hi Madsen: #84: "On the other hand, no one on the ID side has even attempted to provide analogous evidence for ~A, for any structure." This discussion is not about independent evidence for you A and ~A. It is about pointing out the value that evidence or the lack of evidence for the opposing statement has for that statement. Enough has already been said to confirm the different kinds of value there is in the lack of evidence for "chance and necessity". I will therefore do nothing more than to show you that your argument is misplaced and again I suppose that is why KRiS was so excited about it. Just to indulge you in this misplaced view you prefer to discuss, I can point you to the evidence that Michael Behe has been compiling for how long now. That is positive evidence that NOT-"chance and necessity" (i.e. ~A) is statistically the only valid explanation for the origin of various irreducible complex biological systems. Then it will help a lot if you could see that the growing number of studies exposing the complex biological structures that can only be described as irreducibly complex, is evidence for design regardless the assessments that dogmatically conclude that "a naturalistic explanation still has to be found". The fact remains that naturalists can only scream at the top of their voices that "...naturalism is the only valid mechanism!". If probability tells you that something is improbable to the extent that there is not enough probabilistic resources in this universe or a few fantasy multi-verses put together, concede the obvious... an agent that can design a specific outcome was at work. P.S. Demanding evidence for the nature and character of the designing agent is not a prerequisite for science. It has never been and placing it as a prerequisite will effectively stop science in its tracks, because we can only observe effects and hypothesize about causes.mullerpr
March 17, 2009
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If you start with 2 and you eliminate 1, what is left? The 1 not eliminated. But anyway it may be more correct to say that evidence against one strengthens the case for the other.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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Madsen (#84) writes:
# papers explaining (completely) how structure X (flagella, e.g.) arose naturalistically: 0 # papers explaining how an intelligent agent created structure X (flagella, or anything else for that matter): 0 You claimed in post #3 that the lack of results from the naturalistic program supports ID. Why doesn’t the opposite conclusion also hold: The even more pronounced lack of results concerning the designer and his methods constitutes evidence in favor of a naturalistic origin.
And Kris in #89
I was waiting with bated breath to see what kind of reply your comment would get. It appears that silence is all that will be forthcoming. I’m guessing it won’t be long before we see the same kind of assertion yet again in spite of such a powerful challenge to its veracity.
What's at stake here is whether or not absence of evidence [for chance and/or necessity] constitutes evidence of absence. (see my post #57 above) In that context comparing the number of papers published to explain a particular biological system is irrelevant to general question. We know that intelligence can produce systems that exhibit the feature of specified complexity. Can undirected natural causes acting through chance and/or necessity do the same thing? The systemic, global failure on the part of evolutionary biologists to construct a detailed explanation for complex biochemical systems through undirected chance and/or necessity thus negates that premise and provides confirmation for the alternative - intelligent design. That is Gil's main point in the OP and it still stands. The reason the opposite doesn't hold is because we already know that intelligence can produce systems that exhibit the feature in question: specified complexity. Even if we don't know exactly how or under what circumstances this occured with respect to biological systems, the inference itself is not negated becuase we already know by experience of types of systems that intelligence is required. We simply do not know that with respect to undirected natural cause, nor do we have any actual evidence for that.DonaldM
March 17, 2009
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KRiS_Censored #89, Thanks---it's nice to hear someone read it. I now notice you made a similar point in post #37 earlier in the thread.madsen
March 17, 2009
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Seversky, The geocentric PoV was the SCIENTIFIC PoV for quite a long time.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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David Kellogg:
I think talking about “refuting” ID, however, shifts the burden. ID is insufficiently established as a scientific proposition to need refutation.
Then why are scientists trying to refute it? And exactly what do you know of science? Do you think that an accumulation of genetic accidents is sufficiently established? If so you have been duped.Joseph
March 17, 2009
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madsen @84 I was waiting with bated breath to see what kind of reply your comment would get. It appears that silence is all that will be forthcoming. I'm guessing it won't be long before we see the same kind of assertion yet again in spite of such a powerful challenge to its veracity.KRiS_Censored
March 17, 2009
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GilDodgen @ 10
Arguments from incredulity are perfectly justified when a thesis is preposterous,...
An argument from incredulity is not an argument at all, it is a tautology. In effect, you are saying that that you don't believe something because it is unbelievable or you don't believe it because you don't believe it. Hard though it may be for those who need the comforting mythologies of religion to accept, the fact is that there is no evidence that the Universe is ordered according to our beliefs. The Sun did not orbit the Earth no matter how many people believed it did and no matter for how many centuries the belief persisted. Feeling justified in giving vent to your disbelief is neither here nor there. The Universe will go on being the way it is regardless of what GilDodgen or I or anyone else do or do not believe because frankly, my dear, it couldn't give a damn.Seversky
March 16, 2009
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It is true that Gil's post, by itself, is an inadequate argument. One cannot establish ID merely by arguing against unguided evolution. What is often forgotten in the discussion, however, especially by those who get their arguments from the TO/PT echo chamber, is that there is in fact evidence for design. The evidence may eventually prove to be misleading, but it is in fact positive evidence for design. As George Gaylord Simpson said,
A telescope, a telephone, or a typewriter is a complex mechanism serving a particular function. Obviously, its manufacturer had a purpose in mind, and the machine was designed and built in order to serve that purpose. An eye, an ear, or a hand is also a complex mechanism serving a particular function. It, too, looks as if it had been made for a purpose. This appearance of purposefulness is pervasive in nature.
This appearance of purpose is so strong that, as Francis Crick said,
Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved.
Richard Dawkins agrees with the premise that the appearance of design is overwhelming. As he said in The Blind Watchmaker,
Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.
This quote should be read in its original context, where Dawkins waxes rhapsodic about the appearance of design in nature, all the while denying that this appearance gives any clue to the reality. The reason he gives for this denial that the appearance is indicative of reality is that we can in fact reasonably explain the appearance without recourse to actual design. It is not unfair to note, therefore, that if Dawkins is wrong about this, that if we cannot reasonably explain the appearance of design without recourse to actual design, then Dawkins' argument collapses, and the appearance of design should be recognized for what it would then be, prima facie evidence for design. Given this context, GilDodgen's post is logically coherent, and if the specifics are argued (which I believe they can be), the case for ID becomes persuasive. The issue was discussed at some length at https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-unsolved-murder/Paul Giem
March 16, 2009
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"Just a hint. Flagella is plural. It is one flagellum, two flagella. It might detract from the seriousness of your comments if you make such glaring spelling errors. In all seriousness Arthur" An interesting comment. It says more about the person than any comment we could make. Arthur, keep up the good work, these kind of posts help us show that those who object to ID are capable only of trivia. Thank you.jerry
March 16, 2009
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Oops--the expression in the last sentence of my first paragraph should be not be "A?~A" but rather "A wedge ~A" (A or not A). Somehow the wedge got changed to a question mark.madsen
March 16, 2009
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madsen said, “Which beliefs are you referring to? I’m not taking any particular position on ID here. I’m just asking whether or not jerry’s logic is fair. It seems to be rigged in favor of the ID position.” How does it do that. Alternative explanations get as much chance or more than ID. What is missing is the complete exclusion of an ID point of view.
I think you've misinterpreted my posts. Or perhaps I was unclear. Let me try again: Say we are debating the origin of structure X (cells, flagella, whatever). Suppose I take position A, which is that structure X arose through naturalistic processes. You then take position ~A (not A), which is that structure X was designed by some intelligent agent. We know the statement A?~A is true of course. Now let's consider the evidence that has actually been presented to support statements A and ~A. AFAIK, although some results have been presented in favor of A (in the case of flagella), it has not yet been confirmed with any degree of certainty. If A is true, exactly how it happened is still a puzzle. On the other hand, no one on the ID side has even attempted to provide analogous evidence for ~A, for any structure. I have never heard any discussion concerning the identity of the intelligent designer, how and when he carried out the designing process, how the design was actually implemented, etc. To summarize: # papers explaining (completely) how structure X (flagella, e.g.) arose naturalistically: 0 # papers explaining how an intelligent agent created structure X (flagella, or anything else for that matter): 0 You claimed in post #3 that the lack of results from the naturalistic program supports ID. Why doesn't the opposite conclusion also hold: The even more pronounced lack of results concerning the designer and his methods constitutes evidence in favor of a naturalistic origin. Of course the real answer is that neither conclusion follows and the reasoning you laid out in post #3 is not sound.madsen
March 16, 2009
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David Kellogg (#77): "....evolution convinces most of those in a position to judge (that is, Ph.D. biologists).... And prior to 1859 there was not one practicing biologist in England who was an evolutionist---not even one. Darwin was in the closet until 1858-59. Hooker was a Creationist. Huxley was a saltationist. Lyell was a Creationist. All nine great scientific authorities that Darwin mentions on page 310 of the "Origin" were anti-transmutationists, Creationists, species immutabilists. You point out that the vast majority of biologists today are evolutionists. But all polls and surveys show that half of all adults in the U.S. are Creationists, IDists or anti-evolutionists. This mass of persons says evolutionary biologists are liars since the evidence supports Creationism-ID. "Lots of people with religious commitments favor evolution over ID, but who without such commitments favors ID over evolution?" Comment isolates the fact that ALL Atheists are evolutionists. The only thing left to explain is why "Christian" evolutionists think they are Christians? I have answered this question in (msg.#79) RayR. Martinez
March 16, 2009
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Also your comment of the ID design of the flagella is a non serious comment. If someone can design and build the cell they would have no problem with the flagella.
Jerry, Just a hint. Flagella is plural. It is one flagellum, two flagella. It might detract from the seriousness of your comments if you make such glaring spelling errors. In all seriousness ArthurArthur Smith
March 16, 2009
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Joseph (#51): "Yet the theory of evolution has and is being championed as 'religion-neutral'." This fact shows how brazenly dishonest that Darwinists are since evolution accepts the assumptions of Naturalism, which are, of course, pro-Atheism. This is why all Atheists are Darwinists. Darwinism is anti-religion but since most Darwinists are Christians the brazen misrepresentation becomes a necessity because it is logically inexplicable as to why and how Christians could accept pro-Atheism assumptions about reality. Logically, the acceptance is the evidence that these Christians are not Christians. The only thing left to explain is why they THINK that they are Christians while siding with the Atheism view of life and not the Bible? According to the Bible, Judas, an original Apostle, was under the direct control of Satan when he betrayed Christ to His face with a kiss. We have our explanation. RayR. Martinez
March 16, 2009
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"ID is insufficiently established as a scientific proposition to need refutation." What other nonsense. The alternative has no credibility and gets large amounts of financing. So we see bogus theories with no credibility reach a point where they do not need refutation and can lap up the money. Sounds like the stimulus bill. You just have to be on the right side of the money. This is Alice in Wonderland.jerry
March 16, 2009
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Ray, my point is made above, and repeated here:
. . . in the larger picture, and granting a mix of motivations in everybody, evolution convinces most of those in a position to judge (that is, Ph.D. biologists) while ID (or creationism) convinces very few: and virtually all of those have previously existing religious commitments
Lots of people with religious commitments favor evolution over ID, but who without such commitments favors ID over evolution? My point is that the evolution and ID have an asymmetrical relation to religion.David Kellogg
March 16, 2009
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madsen said, "Which beliefs are you referring to? I’m not taking any particular position on ID here. I’m just asking whether or not jerry’s logic is fair. It seems to be rigged in favor of the ID position." How does it do that. Alternative explanations get as much chance or more than ID. What is missing is the complete exclusion of an ID point of view. Also your comment of the ID design of the flagella is a non serious comment. If someone can design and build the cell they would have no problem with the flagella. If you want anyone to respond to you in the future, make some serious comments. If you were a serious person you would ask different questions in a different manner. I haven't got time to respond to all the nonsense that people make up.jerry
March 16, 2009
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David Kellogg (#39): "Behe, Wells, and Kenyon all had previously existing (maybe in the case of Kenyon there was a conversion involved) religious commitments." And Darwin, Dawkins, Gould and Mayr all had or have previously existing anti-religious commitments, so what is the point? RayR. Martinez
March 16, 2009
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vjtorley,
In order to refute ID, you have to make a strong case that life could have emerged from non-living matter as a result of undirected natural processes (abiogenesis).
Abiogenesis is certainly an interesting issue. I think talking about "refuting" ID, however, shifts the burden. ID is insufficiently established as a scientific proposition to need refutation.David Kellogg
March 16, 2009
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Gil and other moderators, Since we are getting inundated with comments not relevant to the topic on each thread, moderators might want to consider a general comment thread where the moderator can send comments that are not relevant and people can answer the comments if they want. I know moderators have the power to delete comments but I do not know if this is feasible or would take up too much time. The current system is getting out of hand as off topic comments pile up. It worked before when there were fewer people commenting here but at the moment it is getting excessive.jerry
March 16, 2009
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Matteo
And as far as the tired “God of the gaps” counterargument, the shoe is precisely on the other foot. The real question is are there any gaps presented by an impartial assessment of biological knowledge large enough for a substantial Darwinism to squeeze into? While hardball power politics places the burden of proof entirely on ID, the true intellectual burden of proof is on Darwinists, not IDists.
Its probably relevant to bring up William Dembski's paper The Chance of the Gaps. One of the thins to note here is that in proposing all sorts of multi-verses, the tacit admission of these anti-IDists seems to be that the probablistic resources in this universe (which is the only one we actually know of) appear inadequate to explain the levels of specified complexity we observe in natural systems.DonaldM
March 16, 2009
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This is a great topic in that it clarifies matters. And Gil is surely right for, as Bill Dembski has emphasized, all explanation boils down to chance, necessity, design and combinations thereof. I’ve asked critics to come up with another, and the best they can ever do is throw out fancy words like “chaos” or “self-organization”—simple synonyms of the same. For the materialists there can only be some combination of chance and necessity—design is off limits a priori—just as Jacques Monod made clear. Darwinism weighs in heavy on chance (“chance worshippers” as you know who would call them), whereas Many Worlders pretty much throw in the towel on necessity. Others such as Einstein in physics and our own Michael Denton in biology favor the determinism of necessity. ID proper would let the foot of Design in the door. You have to begin with something. In theory you can make necessity as large or as small as you like. On the one hand necessity will encompass only those things that can be no other way, which suggests mathematics but not the laws of physics, and thus invites the Designer in at a most fundamental level of our existence. And then, on the other hand, necessity can be expanded to include principles of self organization with little or nothing left to chance (which shoos a designer out the door even in biology). So we can be absolute determinists and we can be total chance worshippers, but No, No, Nanette, never in a million years can we invoke design. Thus from the standpoint of the materialist it is all necessity (with determinists like Einstein), all chance (which is where Many Worlders are headed), or some combination of the two (classic Neo-Darwinism). Conceding the possibility of design does not negate chance and necessity. Ordinary humans—even materialists—are astute at sorting these out in their everyday lives. We weigh the odds, we look for pattern, and we spot motive. The question therefore is simple. Do we limit our explanations to chance and necessity and exclude the only other logical possibility which is design? Or do we resist the materialist impulse and let design back in the door?Rude
March 16, 2009
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The typical Darwinist accusation of arguing from incredulity is wholly spurious, as is the assertion that there is no evidence for ID. The facts of the case are quite simple: tightly integrated information-processing cellular nanomachinery operating on a coherent robustly-encoded genetic database is direct empirical evidence for design. If Darwinists wish to claim otherwise, then they are going to need to make one hell of a detailed airtight argument to the contrary, complete with explication of pertinent pathways, detailed calculations of probability at the crucial steps, etc. Thus far they have not even scratched the surface on any of this, and the only substantial thing they have offered is what amounts to an argument from credulity. The quip about knowing that we can walk from LA to Tokyo because we've discovered Hawaii quite aptly sums up the current state of the Darwinist case. And as far as the tired "God of the gaps" counterargument, the shoe is precisely on the other foot. The real question is are there any gaps presented by an impartial assessment of biological knowledge large enough for a substantial Darwinism to squeeze into? While hardball power politics places the burden of proof entirely on ID, the true intellectual burden of proof is on Darwinists, not IDists.Matteo
March 16, 2009
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Gil: Your argument looks more like a general disjunctive syllogism than specifically a proof by contradiction. Note that you didn't actually show a contradiction anywhere in your argument.
Establish two possible alternatives.
This step seems to be missing in your argument. Asserting that "design (foresight and planning)" and "the materialistic laws of physics, chemistry, and probability" are disjoint is not the same as establishing it. And not all ID proponents on this site agree that ID theory even asserts it.
Of course, there is always the possibility that there is a third option, besides design versus chance and necessity, but I’d like to hear it.
And there's the possibility that chance and necessity is the only option, with design being reducible to it. In fact, this is necessarily the case if chance and necessity is synonymous with non-determinism and determinism. This is a semantically turbid area of ID theory. Some IDists will say that "chance" is not merely non-determinism, but undirected non-determinism. But that is not how the term "chance" is used in probability, so the ID camp should expect misunderstandings surrounding this term. And without a scientific definition for "directed", ID seems to hinge on metaphysical libertarianism, which is not great position for an ostensible scientific theory. (BTW, what is the association between materialism and chance+necessity? Why can't immaterial phenomena occur by chance, or by necessity?)R0b
March 16, 2009
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What we do have is essentially an argument from incredulity.
I hear this kind of phoney baloney pseudo-rebuttal all the time when debating Darwinists. It seems to be an old left-over, out-dated and useless crock from TO or such. As Gil responded, some incredulity arguments are proper. What he means is that we are in fact not arguing from mere incredulity but from ,statistical mechanics. Something your avergage biologist knows nothing or little about - but should - seeing that the whole genome is a vastly complex information processing, parts building (including spares), machine assembling factory such as no human mind could ever have developed. Briefly, it all comes down to the probabilities of building a complex functional machine through chance and necessity vs design. Parts of any machine for example, must have the correct mass, shape, size, stress resistance, shear resistance, elasticity, etc. etc. qualities or the end machine will just fail and fall apart as any auto mechanic knows. Furthermore, biological machines are not analogies to machines they ARE machines. Nor is the genetic code analogous to code, it IS code, as Yockey demonstrated - it is mathematically identical to human language. There is no such thing as functional, working code without intelligence. The very definition of the word 'code' requires it.Borne
March 16, 2009
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Donald, The largest prime found so far is nearly 13 million digits long (12,978,189 to be exact). It is 2 raised to the 43,112,609th power, minus 1, and is known as a Mersenne prime. See the link below for the great Mersenne prime challenge. http://www.mersenne.org/GilDodgen
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